Dragon Quest Remakes and First Person Combat

[@ThrillingDuck]

Okay the fact that THIS take has proven to be somehow more contentious than the "Other M is a good game" video is genuinely terrifying. Let me rephrase this whole thing very simply for the people this seems to be infuriating: I dislike 1st person FOV in turn based RPGs because I think it looks boring af, and there are other people who feel this way as well. It's that simple. Turn based combat that doesn't show and animate the player's party looks boring, and that takes us out of the experience. I'm seeing a lot of very convoluted counter-arguments that boil down to the commenter genuinely not understanding the issue. If not seeing your character doesn't bother you, then obviously there is no issue. I can't explain taste to you. If you are satisfied by barebones combat visuals with barely any animation, good for you. The one recurring argument I want to address is this "why did you keep bringing up the year like you were making a point?" I genuinely thought my reasoning here was more self-explanatory, but clearly it wasn't, so allow me to clarify: I genuinely believe that old RPGs originally used 1st person to save dev time and costs, and because they were released for weak hardware. I do not believe it was an artistic choice at their conception - I believe it was a concession. Over time, in reference to those older titles, it became an artistic choice, but I believe the decision to do that was misguided. To me, choosing to do something that inherently looks worse/boring/whatever because it resembles something older that may not have even wanted to abide by those limitations in the first place is bananas. So when I say "it's 2024, not 1986," what I'm trying to get at is that we don't have these budget and hardware limitations anymore - at least Square Enix certainly doesn't. Choosing to do this now is - TO ME - akin to say, an Ocarina of Time remake choosing to run at 20fps "as an artistic choice." If you think that's a strawman, all I have to say is that I genuinely find 1st person in turn based RPGs THAT visually irksome. It's not a strawman TO ME.

[@pocketjedi6675]

your point was very clear in this video, and english is not even my native language! The problem is not your take, it's the DQ community : they won't understand a simple fact which is, to each their own. They will accept anything lazy because it is DQ, and do not realize that criticizing something you like is ok. The very first point you made is all there is to say tbh : just give the players to play fights 1st or 3rd person.

[@despeinado340]

@@ThrillingDuckWell, I guess we can agree to disagree. Try not to get so worked up about it tho. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have gotten so much flag had you softened your tone just a little.

[@zoltanstudios]

@@tubey84 He's talking about the price, not the game itself.

[@Argonisgema]

Only just started watching the video and my take on it is that i'm enjoying the game and as a 2d HD remake i think its fine but i wouldn't want this style to be in any of the newer DRagon quest games. This remake seems more like a get it done quick kind of deal, something easy for team B to work on while Team A works on the main series.

[@SpiritofNature]

Personally I would prefer if combat would look like Octopath Traveler 2, like when you see characters performing crazy badass moves with quality animations. Also boss attack you see how it damages certain character and so on and so forth. And they have team to do it. It is same developers. HOWEVER I think the reason why they didn't do it is economy of resources. It is much harder to implement another system from scratch,when you can just use source code from original and that's it and you need to make two more games with limited budget. And knowing Square Enix investors and how they are unhappy in recent days, cutting the cost is a logic move. So it is as usual money problem.

[@Dean_Bradley]

💯 I hate not seeing my characters in battle.

[@ssjkiego]

i thought it was 100% lazy to not include 3rd person in combat and I share your opinion.

[@Dekent]

For the price they want there should have definitionally been an option for 1st or 3rd person.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@Dekent Good news: the game as a battle speed option, meaning that you can battles go very fast.

[@Jimmymatthewb]

you forgot to mention that dq11 has third person combat so for everyone who says dq has to "stay true to some roots",ummm..... it's ALREADY MOVED ON, didn't you PLAY the most recent dragon quest?? it was 100 percent turn based, and 100 percent nostalgic, and still went to third person

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@Jimmymatthewb Yeah I’ve brought this up in multiple comment threads here at this point. DQ8-11, plus the remake of 7 are all third person, to say nothing the majority of the DQ Monsters titles! (Literally everything since the Gameboy.)

[@Nando75549]

I love the Monsters games.

[@LilGian1]

It should of been an option. I really like seeing my party because it’s cool especially since there is customized characters and it’s easier to see status inflictions !

[@FPSSteel]

In defense of first person combat, it can work if the attacks are well animated and well done in general, if they are just effects and you don't even see an arm swinging a weapon or casting a spell, then it is boring

[@whatever9274]

FINALLY SOMEBODY SAID IT. Everytime I complain about this in videogame forums, i get hated and they defend this lazy practice. Thank you so much for this! THEY NEED TO BE CALLED OUT.

[@ThrillingDuck]

Oh make no mistake - I got lit up here as well. Some people just don't get it. Like, the percentage of the fanbase that just has no aesthetic taste apparently is staggering, which is extra shocking because this is fucking DRAGON QUEST. Like, peak Toriyama art.

[@Doryphoros22]

100% agree, I won't buy a turn-based rpg if it is in first person, I want to see my party

[@budgiewhisperer2738]

Totally agree I love seeing the characters attack in 3rd person like FF6, Octopath 2 and Chained Echoes, I was thinking of buying Dragon Quest 3 remake but I don’t think I will now, as you mentioned they should of allowed us to toggle between the two.

[@Mauricio_Magus]

I disagree, Dungeon Crawlers like the Etrian Odyssey games made me a huge fan of first person RPGs, it's more about the fast combat and using your imagination for those games and I want more of them.

[@ThrillingDuck]

I can at least get behind this sentiment. I don't have a very vivid mind's eye (I'm a terrible artist, for example), so I really don't like having to imagine the fight choreo, etc, myself. I still stand by what I said here, but I get what you're saying. Still think first person should have been a toggle option though. It just pleases both sides. Win win.

[@TrvisXXIII]

@@Mauricio_Magus I’m not even advocating next gen graphics or endless cutscenes, but using your imagination for a modern game is hilarious lol go read a book if you want that.

[@BrethrenThouEnraged]

Why buy games at all? Better create a game out of imagination 💯

[@Joerpg84]

I am glad we got Romancing SaGa 2 Revenge of the Seven. That is how remakes should be done and an amazing battle system.

[@swallow1106]

They done it since dragon quest 8. I think this is just being close to original since it’s the first time going back to first person only.

[@ThrillingDuck]

I agree, but they went all out for the DQ7 remake on 3DS, which was also a recreation of a first-person entry. Would have loved for them to go the extra mile here too.

[@leandroazeredo8713]

I really couldn't believe how wrong their gameplay direction was when I booted this one up and went to my first battle. Wow, talk about wrongly using their efforts. They really animated all the monsters and not the characters and charged 60 euro?! Instant and SAD return because boy was I hyped for this game.

[@MeetSylvie]

JRPGs on the Sega Genesis (1989) had third person battles. So what seems to be the problem with this in 2024? Certainly not technical limitations. I too am very disappointed with the first person battles, with no option to switch to third person. Why can't the developers just add a toggle switch and let the player decide?

[@deyon100]

Thanks for this. I knew I wasn't the only one who felt this way. First-person is trash in turn-based JRPGs. It was a lazy decision. It should have been an option like they did in the definitive edition of Dragon Quest 11. Great video. I subscribed. 👍

[@BrethrenThouEnraged]

Dragon quest VIII didi it right

[@veefeedscatz]

While I don't have as strong of an opinion on it I do feel it's *incredibly* dumb how literally every DQ since like 8 (and 7 remake, sidenote nummericals are surprisingly confusing when thinking from a remake perspective) as had the camera go 1st person for menuing to 3rd person when executing actions which works really well but then the remake of 3 did the exact opposite, you get to see these really cool back-sprites of your characters and then.... nothing. It's incredibly deflating and a baffling decision for an 2d-hd remake, a visual style lauded for its pixel-art. Also while it's not about the battle perspective this video reminded me of how I feel about Etrian Odyssey and its HD remasters which stuck with fixed 2d art assets for its battles instead of the more dynamic 3d models of the 3ds games. It makes battles feel very stale, which is especially disappointing after PQ2 added some visual flairs by having the chibi player characters jump in and out to attack without disturbing gameflow too much.

[@TheRogueAstronaut]

I'm 100% with you. I think it's a missed opportunity to get some cool DQ sprite combat animations. Game is a miss for me due to FP because I find it terribly bland. The only games that get a pass are Etrian Odyssey games and that's just barely.

[@Merk1387]

First person is boring indeed. DQ fans will defend it by saying its traditional or whatever but I just see that as a lame excuse for being lazy and stuck in the past. You can keep old school elements while also being modern. There's no reason why they couldn't have both first and third person.

[@orangeslash1667]

For some reason Dragon Quest has monster animations with no the character animations, but with Octopath Traveler it's the opposite.

[@AurumAlex64]

I don't feel quite as strongly about first-person in turn-based RPGs as you, but I definitely agree that seeing the characters during combat has always been preferable to me. What's funny is that there's precedent for third-person with Dragon Quest remakes. The original DQ7 was entirely first-person during combat, but in the 3DS remake, it was only first-person until everyone selected your moves. Then the camera zoomed out and you could see your party members actually performing the actions you selected. So, basically, the opposite of what it seems like they're doing here lol.

[@jetrednathe]

It feels like a major missed opportunity to not have full animations assuming they have sprites for all the weapons alongside the character creation elements. Considering how mind-blowing DQIX was for having fully realised combat and customisation as a child, it’s a shame to not bring some of that magic into a modern remake

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@jetrednathe Right?!!

[@joshakins4923]

Honestly it is the only part I am not keen on, I wish you could toggle it off so the camera just doesn't move in combat and stays at your back.

[@exanhighlander6236]

This should have been an option. Too much unutilized bottom space during combat animation.

[@exanhighlander6236]

And this game was a lot more expensive than Elden Ring on its day 1 release! Let this sink in. At this point there should be an option for 1st person and Party View.

[@Toxicmedicine94]

I was going to buy it, but I’m also in the against 1st person camp. Wah-Wah. Looked good too.

[@orangeslash1667]

For some reason Dragon Quest has monster animations with no the character animations, but with Octopath Traveler it's the opposite.

[@NintendoComplete]

I disagree with you, but I respect your opinion, and you have every right to it. I have a question, though, about the way you approached the topic. Why is there so much venom in how you speak about this, and why do you assume that it's a product of laziness? It's a stylistic choice that reflects the game's roots the way the original designers intended - their artistic intent - and I somehow doubt that they did it just to spite you or to save a few bucks. You throw a lot of straw men out there to make your point, too. A first-person perspective is not the same thing as a game not having a soundtrack or whatever. It's an aesthetic choice that obviously doesn't sit well with you, but to accuse the developers the way you do here seems awfully unfair. What needs to stop is people throwing tantrums over such ridiculous things. You're allowed to not like it and not buy it, of course, but opinions are subjective. The fact that you don't like doesn't mean it's objectively bad. The fact that I do like it doesn't mean it's objectively good. It's what the designers wanted.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@NintendoComplete So, the pinned comment covers why I speak about it as a product of laziness and bit, but in a nutshell I’m really not convinced that the perspective began its life as an artistic choice so much as a budgetary and hardware limitation, and then just continued on as a sort of tradition. It’s not that I think this was chosen to spite me lol, but I do think that the decision to continually approach the series this way is extremely misguided. As for the soundtrack “strawman,” I really don’t think it is. What players have accepted as the standard is just as arbitrary and subjective as anything else. You think lacking combat animations is less absurd than lacking a soundtrack, and not comparable as a result, simply because we as a gaming community have simply accepted that a soundtrack is more expected by default. I’m simply arguing that combat animations should be equally expected, as they still very much affect the presentation as this is a visual medium. And I don’t recall using the term “objectively” here, but I realize I didn’t add any “in my opinion” disclaimers (I thought they were assumed - clearly they weren’t lol). I hope that clears up my views a bit, but I appreciate the respectful and civil dissent regardless. Don’t know why this is so hard for most commenters, but good on you :)

[@TrvisXXIII]

@@NintendoComplete It isn’t a creative choice, it was a limitation of that time period that we can move past

[@NintendoComplete]

@ThrillingDuck I don't have a problem with you having a take that differs from mine. I wasn't trying to be facetious with that question, either. I'm genuinely curious about why you seem so angry about it. I mean, why frame your disappointment as a targeted accusation? Why does it have to be someone's fault? Isn't it enough to explain why you don't like it?

[@NintendoComplete]

@TrvisXXIII That was my point. It's not a limitation anymore, but they made the conscious decision to recreate the look anyway. It's not like they just pasted NES code in and called it a day.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@NintendoComplete I’m not sure I understand your question tbh. I mentioned it not being a decision targeting me specifically because you gave that as an example in your OP. I frame the practice as “lazy” because I genuinely feel it’s a misallocation of resources made with the intent to spare themselves the extra work of animating the player party. Saving one’s self labor is like, the textbook definition of “lazy,” no? As for why I seem so angry about it, it’s because I see it as a serious visual marr on something I was otherwise so excited for, and I guess a part of me is annoyed that the gaming community at large has grown to be so complacent about it. But honestly, I really really didn’t intend to come across as venomous as you seem to be reading my tone. If you want to see REAL venom, watch my Other M video lol.

[@Joerpg84]

I 100% agree I find it not visually entertaining and spend more time reading what’s happening and who got hit etc. DQ IX had an amazing battle system and XI and wish they had a toggle. Modders might fix this hopefully.

[@ハク-q6e1j]

I really don't see the issue, I had this same opinion before, but after playing SMT: Devil Survivor, it really doesn't matter in the end, what matters is how strategic the combat is.

[@ThrillingDuck]

Gameplay will always be king in this medium, I would just like a bit more visual flair in the combat.

[@isidorodaviddoro1920]

Dragon Quest 3 difficulty doesn't get close to devil survivor depth so you Will be disappointed

[@theshadowman8801]

I don't really care about first person combat anymore. What I really care about is the animation for the enemies and spells, dq5 on ps2 had the best first person animations in my opinion. Dq3 remake animation kinda remind me of the ds animations, except you can see your character on screen before attacking a enemy and the graphics are up to date.

[@AvatarSteven]

The only issue i had with this remake, was the bad performance on the Nintendo Switch. And this 1st person view in the combat doesn’t make it easier for me to decide, if i‘m gonna buy this game or not. And i really feel your concern about it. It’s just not good enough for me. I highly prefer the combat animations of Octopath Traveler. And you really made an understandable point in this video. I don’t understand the bad like-dislike ratio.

[@KatallinaVT]

Never been a fan of first person in turn based RPGs. It's an opportunity wasted to up overall visual connection with your characters. Also, my introduction to old school RPGs was Final Fantasy 1, so obviously I'm biased. While I'm looking forward to trying this out, to me first person is just a stylistic blunder for the sake of nostalgia. Which I can understand and tolerate while still, generally, thinking it sucks. Especially with the time and effort here to let you customize your party's appearance.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@KatallinaVT Literally my feelings verbatim.

[@spardathedevil7956]

Want to see more jrpgs with Grandia 1-3 combat. Imo it's the best combat.

[@protolegacy9184]

Grandia does have a great battle system. Surprised more RPGs have not tried to do something similar.

[@spardathedevil7956]

@@protolegacy9184 It's easiear to make .bmp picture to move rather making decent animations.

[@derekday3896]

Even Pokemon games 30 years ago had the decency to show back sprites, even if the models didn't really animate. I'd rather see attack animations coming from a static image of the character than no character at all

[@ThrillingDuck]

Absolutely same.

[@despeinado340]

Personally, I always prefered Dragon Quest's first person style over Final Fantasy's side view in the early NES games. Toriyama's eternally grinning monsters shine the most in a frontal shot, and I don't think seeing the character's backs would add much to the experience. There's also this little thing called "imagination". People used to use it a heck of a lot more, and it arguably made those early games more immersive. Ultimately, I commend you for explaining your reasoning, but you shouldn't take your clearly subjective opinion as fact.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@despeinado340 I was just thinking that??

[@andrellnogueira]

I agree with you. Don't misunderstand me, I do see a valid advantage in First Person Combat - it cuts a lot of dev time. So, specially for indie devs, I super get it. But a Big Remake of a Big Game of a Big Company? There's no excuse, as if you yourself said. I would also 100% defend it if it was an artistic decision, made on purpose, to say something in the game. Undetale kind of did, it makes complete sense there. But it isn't here. If it was, they would've not add the characters appearing when selecting moves. They found it important to add a half-measure like that, but not a full party member acting? It screams cutting corners because they had a good excuse to.

[@orangeslash1667]

Some people say that Toriyama's eternally grinning monsters shine the most in a frontal shot???

[@KazDX]

I love Dragon Quest and I agree they should have give an option of battle camera, for the price of $60, it would have help justify the cost. Will wait for a sale.

[@ryanleetravels]

100% agree with you. When I found out they just show your characters in battle sitting there I decided I will not buy this game. Bro I loved your video and I subbed! Thanks for being super honest because this is absolutely what no big channels say this!

[@kingty2550]

Rather, you people understand it or not, having 3rd person battle animations is a deal breaker for some. I was hyped for this game, but as soon as i found out it was 1st person battles, i lost all excitement. I played every DQ game, so i wasn't expecting to play the same game with a fresh coat of paint. I just don't get why we didn't get the option to choose

[@TrvisXXIII]

@@kingty2550 hopefully they see some of the complaints and make that change before the next 2 games come out

[@shokyle]

Personally first person doesn’t put me that off that much (I have more trouble playing SMT1 because of the game mechanics) but I definitely get what you mean, I 100% prefer how Persona 2 looks in and out of battle than say SMT 1 for example. The 3rd person perspective is what makes games like Persona 2 and Xenogears some of the best looking, immersive and presented JRPGs in my opinion. I mean hell, Chrono Trigger, a SNES game having its battles take place in the overworld where the characters seamlessly enter combat is cool af

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@shokyle Yooo Chrono Trigger having seamless transitions into combat was like a revelation for me, holy shit lol.

[@retrodqfan]

im a firm believer that they should include Both options in the game, When Final fantasy 7 remake came out and I saw there was NO turned based option i did not buy. And will never buy a game that strays away from the original. I strongly believe this. I love DQ3 Remake ❤

[@user-cx9vq2jk2l]

Ive been in the community ever since I was a kid, and I whole heartly agree with you the first person just feels off. nowadays considering most of the dq title have moved past it. This seems to be a budget decision. Kinda off putting at first but once you play long enough you'll move past it, now this subject its only in the realm of what it couldve been.

[@xenobrina7880]

Watching the Dragon Quest 3 Remake footage in this video and seeing the camera pull in when attacking is as hilarious as it is sad. Like they are SO CLOSE to understanding that we want to see our characters perform actions, but then a little devil appears on their shoulder and says "but what if we went first person?" But I guess a remake of a highly acclaimed game releasing on every platform just isn't a safe enough deal to put that little bit of effort in... (Last sentance was sarcasm you get the idea hopefully)

[@ThrillingDuck]

The first time I saw that happen in gameplay footage, I let out the same "NOOOOOOO" that Rick Sanchez does when his wife gets killed.

[@firebat36]

I like the way it looks, plus this is how the game was. I prefer remakes that keep the original experience intact as much as possible. I dont want silent films to have voice lines added.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@firebat36 Interesting comparison! For what it’s worth, what I really want is a toggle to please both sides. Interesting that some people actually like the FPV though. I just figured its supporters were indifferent to it.

[@Taleow]

This is sort of off topic but one of the more interesting uses of first person combat is in Hylics 2 where it adds a ton to the game’s style and look by having the enemies walk towards the camera

[@ThrillingDuck]

Just looked up some gameplay because you intrigued me. Honestly, I thought it looked great! What put it over the line for me is the simple presence of seeing your own gloved hands throwing out the spells and whatnot. There were still combat animations, and the presence of visual limbs made the FPV actually immersive, rather than like a cheap budgeting decision. To be clear, I think FPV in RPGs can absolutely be done tastefully (even if I'll never prefer it), but the Dragon Quest/Earthbound/etc system is just not it.

[@DynomitePunch]

also i think another thing people don't think about, is, their gonna be looking for this game to sell as well, or outsell a few of their other remakes like trials, and secret of mana, or ramancing saga remasters and remakes like 2 remake, etc, but the problem with that, is, their is a percentage of people who bought those other games, who will not touch this game because of the first person combat, and in a world where people are even getting more and more tired of third person TBC, their gonna have a hard time getting the sales they probably project, not even just that but the games they gotta compete with this month, mario and luigi brothership, metal slug tactics, tmnt splintered fate, metro vr, river city saga three kingdoms, as well as a ton of big RPGS coming later next year, their are a LOT of different exciting games coming out, while this game WILL sell well, no doubt, it's probably not gonna live up the sales of some of their other own games, so they will most likely be disappointed, i mean i could be wrong, but i dunno

[@alesgrym4622]

I was excited for this game before I saw that they created battle sprites but still elected to force the attacks into first person seemingly just to avoid animating the attacks, after seeing it, I won't be paying full price for a half ass attempt I agree with your stance on this, I think they should have had the option to switch

[@protolegacy9184]

What gets me is that you see the characters while selecting actions and all the enemies have all this animation. Then they just decided not to bother with the characters themselves. In 7 remake,11 and 8 the battles are just as fast or close. And you are right. If some fans wanted 1st person it should have been an option. They obviously put a lot of work into the visuals in the game but missed an important element. I think it was a combination of,its classic so lets keep it and hey,its a way to not bother.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@protolegacy9184 During the initial reveal teaser, I remember gasping with excitement when they showed the player party on the battle screen, and then audibly letting out the “Nooooooooo!!!” that Rick does when his wife gets murdered when they zoomed back in to FPV for the commands resolving.

[@protolegacy9184]

@@ThrillingDuck I totally remember that as well. Im with you man.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@protolegacy9184 I think the appeal of Dragon Quest is the animations of the Monsters, rather than the characters. Since in classic Final Fantasy it's the opposite.

[@tubey84]

Nonsense. Not every game has to be homogenised. It was the same nonsense argument against ATB in Final Fantasy - no single mechanic is arbitrarily 'archaic', it's just how it's implemented. It's the 'current year' argument that always falls flat on its' face for that reason. It's graphically up to date, responsive, intuitive to a player and works - that's all that matters. If you don't like it, that's fine. The devs have chosen to do it that way and the game isn't for you. So be it. You don't see me crying about Call Of Duty not being third person because I prefer Gears of War.

[@ThrillingDuck]

This coming from the "20fps is a bad example" guy? Really? Hello pot, meet kettle! 1) Absolutely fucking nowhere did I suggest anything in the vein of "every game has to be homogenized." What a hare-brained leap in logic. This video is strictly about presentation value of the combat in turn based RPGs. It was in the intro. I don't even know what you're going on about with ATB systems. I've never seen any complaints with that mechanic, and I certainly didn't throw any shade at it. 2) Presentationj is an aspect of a game's design, and whether you like it or not, there are standards based on year/era of release for that as well. Or hadn't you noticed that "graphics and presentation" are an aspect of most traditional game reviews? 3) Your Gears of War comparison is terrible. FPV serves an actual purpose in FPSes. The only purpose it serves in turn based RPGs is to cheap out on the animation budget.

[@quadpad_music]

@@ThrillingDuck What purpose does FPV serve in FPSs that it doesn't in RPGs?

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@quadpad_music Opening up screen real estate for the real time action. This is more important in competitive games than single player ones really, but at least there’s a reason. To be clear, I still tend to prefer 3rd person shooters for similar personal taste reasons though.

[@darklordyianni4463]

Whining for something like that....right.

[@DonutSwordsman]

It should 100 percent be an option, like Skyrim. It's immersive sometimes but not always God no

[@ThrillingDuck]

This 100%. And the funny thing is I feel like Skyrim can get away with it, because you can see your limbs and it's real-time action. So the FPV is like ACTUALLY immersive. So having the 3rd person option was above and beyond if anything. Here, there's no reason not to include it, aside from "eh, we didn't feel like it."

[@DynomitePunch]

honestly first person combat is what turned me off of most dq games, i remember when i got dq8 i was real happy with it, then went back and played some older title, i forget which one, and realised the combat was in first person, it bored me, the only time it's never bored me was when i was play DQ swords for the wii, i agree with the sentiment, don't get me wrong, if some people want first person combat yes they absolutely should have it, but in this day and age and as big of a company as square is, third person is certainly do-able, and easily so, their is no reason other than "traditionalism" and cutting corners for this stuff

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@DynomitePunch Exactly! Just make 1st person an option. Also, I generally feel that 1st person can become actually immersive in real time action games, so it also doesn’t bother me in Dragon Quest Swords!

[@louliwanag6287]

The thing is DQ8 and DQ9 did it right but they reverted back on the same formula which is like playing the same game from the original just with updated graphics.

[@ksemanr]

What bothers me is that the environments are just normal 3D environments, they don't use the sprite textures style used in Octopath or Triangle Strategy. Fails to hit the appeal of HD2D

[@Shatterglass23]

EVERYTHING in this video was very well said and TRUE. FIRST PERSON GAME'S STINK

[@orangeslash1667]

For some reason Dragon Quest has monster animations with no the character animations, but with Octopath Traveler it's the opposite.

[@sidsydney3640]

In a grind heavy game like dragon quest, the lack of character animations in battle really help speed up the battles.

[@ThrillingDuck]

Very understandable, but the option should still be there. A toggle pleases both sides.

[@SteeLiveLP]

Undernauts is a killer first person RPG dungeon crawler. But I agree it honestly would have sold better if it wasn't a first person dungeon crawler.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@SteeLiveLP First person dungeon crawlers are yet another genre I’ve come to really love over the years, but as always, in spite of the perspective. I can’t tell you how much more I would enjoy Etrian Odyssey for example if I could just see my damn characters.

[@Gaa1jan1]

Your content absolutely rocks, it was your boktai video that brought me in and I've watched it like 4 times now. Thank you for your creations

[@ThrillingDuck]

Thanks so much man, I really really appreciate that :) Especially on this video in particular - good god, the general reaction has been an absolute shitstorm lol.

[@milesdarobot4980]

I prefer 3rd person combat where i see my characters. But 1st person combat doesnt bother me tbh. Where i draw the line is 1st Person Dungeon Crawlers. Im enjoying Etrian Odyssey and Labyrinth of Galleria(currently playing both), but would enjoy them more if i saw the characters while traveling

[@ThrillingDuck]

I've also been getting into Etrian Odyssey lately and have the exact same feelings.

[@JesseCFG]

What a weird thing to criticize so strongly. Like, there's so many things NOT depicted in these RPG battle animations that it's a weird line in the sand to draw. I mean, I'd totally understand it if it was like "I would like it if.." kind of argument but to call it lazy and inferior is a bit much. FYI The only DQ game I've ever played is Builders 2 so I have no horse in this race either way.

[@ThrillingDuck]

They're literally just not animating what's happening in battle lol. But okay: "I would like it if they actually animated the player's party in battle." Out of curiosity, what things not depicted were you talking about?

[@JesseCFG]

@@ThrillingDuck The things not shown vary from game to game. For example, some battle sprites never actually make contact when performing melee moves and some games do (even some older ones like Fire Emblem or Golden Sun). And I know you said that sarcastically but it's reality. Lack of player sprites is a design and/or a style choice. For example, I always thought the Mother 4/Oddity battle animations for the player looked goofy. You thought they look great. Neither position is correct because it's a matter of tastes and it's up to the designers to make that choice. I guess that's a better way say what I was feeling... it feels strange to so categorically denounce something that is ultimately a design choice (and not a "lazy" choice, per se).

[@milesdarobot4980]

@@ThrillingDucki mean, these developers spent over 3 years crafting this game from the ground up. Feels a bit disrespectful to deem them “lazy”. They didnt go with 1st person out of laziness. If anything it was likely just the art direction they wanted to approach the game with

[@orangeslash1667]

@@milesdarobot4980 For some reason Dragon Quest has monster animations with no the character animations, but with Octopath Traveler it's the opposite???

[@milesdarobot4980]

@@orangeslash1667 because it was likely done as a stylistic choice. Not because they were lazy. If anybody who follows the series enough to watch a multitude of Yuji Horii interviews, you see that this man is a purist, and traditionalist. He worked on this game himself as well. They more than likely were just going for making it as close to the original as possible.

[@AzureCrook]

Fami, nes, snes, gba, mobile, 2014 remake.. the last drop is the fact they don't use pixel art and instead use rescaled 3D models, as a game dev this just feels like a lazy asset flip, doesn't feel like something the studios would do Also Shin Megami Tensei did the front combat before and better, went back to remaster it on the 3DS era and it still holds up

[@trenthoward6800]

The footage zoomed into the female Warrior the very second you began speaking about the importance of Toriyama's designs. That bit of divine intervention humor aside, I can understand your argument against the first-person combat despite enjoying it myself, and it is unusual that the outsourced developer didn't request more funds to cover the extra character sprites necessary for a zoomed out perspective as seen when actions ae being selected from the command menu. It's weird to me because Level-5 was so adamant about making the battle phase dynamic in VIII that by the time IX rolled out both human and monster parties would be shown dispersing for their actions and then regrouping at the end of their turn, complete with cut-in camera shifts. That being said I enjoy the FPV because it allows me to imagine all the possible details of how my party acts in combat and I wouldn't be able to that when the animation cycles are limited to a handful of actions. The game does have animation for the attacks and spells, but envisioning how those were landed in the first place is part of the fun for me. As far as modernizing the game for a new generation goes, I'm just happy that wisdom now increases spell damage like it should have 30+ years ago and agility has nothing to do with defense anymore.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@trenthoward6800 It wasn’t divine intervention - I placed that clip there purposefully lol.

[@trenthoward6800]

@@ThrillingDuck Based, ha ha. I'm glad you're taking an interest in the series though, these games have stood the test of time for a reason.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@trenthoward6800 Oh, most definitely!

[@orangeslash1667]

@@trenthoward6800 I wonder if the charm of First Person Combat is to see the funny designs of the enemies rather than the party???

[@trenthoward6800]

@@orangeslash1667 That's a possibility, and there is something to be said for how odd side-profile displays in other series can look.

[@Belkerlos]

Been playing Dragon Quest III hd 2d since yesterday. The third person camera view when your characters are not attacking is such a tease 😆

[@liquidmetalslime9]

Im a HUGE DQ fan but i agree with you on first person combat, but i enjoy the earlier titles in spite of it. However we need the address the real elephant in the room.. I think square kept the combat this way because two reasons money and effort. Effort related to the graphical style, which is a sprite based game. DQ sells like crazy in Japan and has increased its sells worldwide thanks to games like DQ11, builders and Dragon Quest Monsters raising it's brand recognition, but its not the powerhouse FF is sales wise... These HD2D remake games are not cheap to make despite what most think, and a game of this magnitude probably only has a midsized budget. Sprite work and animations for sprite work can also at times be more expensive than animating 3D models as you need to hand draw each individual animation. Its also much more work and takes up time. (Time is money) I do not think its a coincidence that DQ finally added character battle animations to its first person combat with DQ8, which was the first non Sprite based, 3d DQ. Subsequent 3d games have done this too but even later sprite based games that came after DQ8 including the DS remakes of 4-6 all maintained first person style. There has NEVER been a sprite based DQ game that moved away from first person combat or included the character animations and i truly think cost, time and DQ being niche outside of Japan is the issue. DQ is more popular in the west now but its still not doing numbers like FF or persona, and to be honest its rabid Japanese fanbase is aging. I do not think square will allow a mid sized budget SPRITE based DQ game to have the resources needed to get the style of combat we want. For this game in particular think of all the animations they would have needed due to the amount of customization you can do, not only because of the many different sprites fir each class system, but the individual character model customization you can do for each class. I hope im wrong and maybe we can see character attack animations for DQ1&2 since those have set party members, but if we don't see it there, i don't think we will ever see it in a sprite based DQ unless it's brand grows to a point to where the ROI is feasible and it becomes a multi million seller in the west and not just Japan. *Edited my response for grammar and to restate i agree with you 100000 percent!

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@liquidmetalslime9 Really really interesting perspective on the situation here. I was extra confused because the last few mainline titles and remakes all had combat animations, but didn’t make the connection that they were 3D model based, with sprite-based entries having not yet made their third person debut. Thanks for sharing!

[@liquidmetalslime9]

@ThrillingDuck thanks for engaging and speaking from this perspective on your video. All we can do is make our voices heard. I just subscribed to your channel. I will be picking this up day 1 though lol

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@liquidmetalslime9 As you should! As big of a stink as I may have made about the situation here, honestly I'd probably still have picked this up day one if we were in the midst of a game drought and/or my backlog wasn't already so huge lol.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@liquidmetalslime9 Good news: the game as a battle speed option, meaning that you can battles go very fast.

[@BaronSolace]

even as a child i hated this fp format back in NES, the bottom line is It's what Japanese players like, and DQ is made for Japanese players mainly, it's not made for us we just get it as a courtesy cuz "why not"

[@ganondorfzant]

Watch Hardcore Henry, first person film making. I do enjoy the consistent first person visuals in "older" Atlus games (SMT 1/2, Soul Hackers, Etrian Odyssey). Compared to SMT 4 having third person exploration and first person fights. I just don't like having my view points in games constantly shifting. I despite third person shooters with a first person view point when aiming, or vise-versa. To clarify, your biggest issue with DQ's first person perspective is that you can't see the actions your party takes?

[@ThrillingDuck]

Yes, but it's a big turnoff for me. Nothing I haven't gotten past as an adult, but it's always a significant downside in the presentation when I'm playing a game like this. Also to be clear, I don't have anything against "found footage" style films, but I do think there's a reason you don't see many of those in the high fantasy genre.

[@TauntJibsBits]

Man I’m so glad that you made this video. I got lit up on Reddit bc I said the same thing about DQ 3 2D HD remake. I was so excited for the game until I found out the combat is 1st person. You explained this perfectly!! Great video and hopefully Square will learn from this/add in animations post launch? (Highly highly unlikely, but hey we can dream)

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@TauntJibsBits Thanks! I just really wanted to put this out there for all like 53 of us that this matters to lol.

[@TrvisXXIII]

This is the video I was looking for on this game

[@Beelzeblob.]

When I was a kid, I totally agreed. I'd play some ds games and not really like the first person jrpg combat. But now, at 30, I kind of love it. What got me hooked was dragon quest 5 on the ds. The sprites just looked so good. It was immersive, at least for me. Now. I do agree, make it a Toggle. But, I'm one of the weird ones that like it. I also love the combat in the most games. God the sprites in 4 are so fantastic.

[@ThrillingDuck]

Part of what makes it so frustrating for me is that the overworld sprites are so gorgeous, and the enemy animations - when they're actually there - are often quite lavish as well. And yeah, the DS remakes of the Zenithian trilogy are such an aesthetic. DQ4 and 5 are among my favorites in the series too, despite the FPV in combat.

[@matthewrodgers740]

If I wanna play a first person, RPG, I’ll play the elder scroll series

[@RMSBones]

I'm primarily here for the nostalgia. Could they have done more? Sure. Does it really matter? Not really. The video was a good watch. I'll buy when it goes on sale.

[@Hunter-xh2im]

Ok, not liking first-person perspective in turn-based games. Fine. You can have that. But do NOT bring raisin cookies into this!

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@Hunter-xh2im Lmao my B

[@gothjoeevil]

My favorites are dragon quest 5,7,8,11 But I absolutely love 8 and 11‘s graphics I was definitely disappointed to see this game had a first person combat

[@ThrillingDuck]

8 and 11 really raised the bar in that department - so disappointed to see it lowered again. Also great picks! Mine are 4, 5, 8, and 11. I love so much about 7 but god damn it takes so long to get going, I just can't revisit it lol.

[@DarkClaymore555]

I feel like this video confuses two things together. Older Pokemon battles pretty much had a first-person view, the trainer's. The main difference is that they also showed your Pokemon in that view. So, it sounds like the real argument in this video isn't first-person vs. third-person. It's about "seeing your characters during combat", which I generally agree feels better. Nowadays, most first-person games place the art of the characters on the screen in some capacity. It can be something as simple as placing portraits of the characters on the menu (like Labyrinth of Refrain), or something bigger like showing full 2D art of the character on the screen during their turn (like Mary Skelter) Beyond that, first-person vs. third-person is mostly a taste thing. I got into JRPGs very late (with FF12) and I still like first-person combat more than the chibi sideview. So, it's not about "growing up with these older games". Trying to pin that on nostalgia rings very similar to the argument that "turn-based games are outdated".

[@__-tz6xx]

Wait for the VR port to enjoy first person combat.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@__-tz6xx Lol at least there it would make sense!

[@stevelabounty]

I was super excited for dragon quest 3 remake but the combat looks boring af. After rpgs in recent years spicing up turned based combat i just don't think it will hold my attention. It looks beautiful though.

[@ThrillingDuck]

Yeah it's extra tragic because literally everything else about the game is absolutely gorgeous, but this choice for the combat visuals is a huge blemish.

[@deyon100]

Oh, one more thing I recommend is the Legend of Heroes series (Trails in the Sky). It's a great JRPG series with excellent combat.

[@ThrillingDuck]

I'll look into it - thanks for the rec!

[@ChaliceStory]

I absolutely hate 1st person combat. Still going to play this but I was really hoping for 3rd

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@ChaliceStory Took the words right out of my mouth lol.

[@JellyMyst]

I see what you're saying, but I find it to be a very minor complaint. I've never considered first person battles to be a negative at all, frankly. And I can't say a few more endlessly repeated animations would've added much to my experience playing, say, Earthbound.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@JellyMyst And you’re entitled to that. It really would add a lot to the experience for me though.

[@dylanhagsauce8629]

Its alright if gameboy graphics doo it if they make the monsters higher pixels so like Dragon Quest Monsters was one you could say it had better detail than the pokemon in Red version so I was able to play for that reason.

[@ThrillingDuck]

Interesting! I don't really feel that way, but I appreciate the context. I find first person EXTRA weird and off-putting in monster collecting RPGs.

[@frankiecardona1656]

i like the way it is

[@matthewrodgers740]

I wanna see my characters walk up and attack the monsters or cast spells on them. This is just lazy programming. Could you imagine if they did this to Final Fantasy 7 that game would absolutely flopped

[@concernedfish5574]

I agree, except for the ds smt games. I think the second screen being the in game comp is novel enough to make up for it

[@ThrillingDuck]

You know what, fair.

[@cjw8497]

Phantasy Star 1 would be better if it had 3rd person combat like FF1, or better momster designs like DQ1. I still like all of those games for different reasons though.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@cjw8497 For sure! I can’t stress enough that this isn’t about the quality of the games per se - it’s just a really big sticking point for myself and others. First person doesn’t preclude me from playing these games at all, but it sure detracts from my experience.

[@jacquelineking5783]

Not liking it is one thing, thinking it makes the game trash is entirely another.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@jacquelineking5783 You’re 100% correct. Good thing I indicated the game was trash absolutely nowhere in the video. You…did realize that yes?

[@deyon100]

I totally agree 👍

[@BlazeTiger12]

brother u better preach. I skip out on a lot of JRPG games that look great but can't stand first person rpg combat and dungeon crawling.

[@naenre21]

I agree it's lazy especially when they showed us they changed it on retail release...for some reason. I was going to buy it right away. Not now, going to wait for a huge sale instead. I just want to see my characters, my custom characters. Not just on the world map.

[@ThrillingDuck]

Fucking, THANK you.

[@despeinado340]

Upon seeing more footage of the remake, I'll give this: I think the first person view doesn't work as well as it did even back in the NES. Idk, the remake is so zoomed out that the enemies don't really stand out and it feels empty. In the NES, the sprites would pretty much fill the screen. I know your point is that it never worked, which we can disagree on, but still, it feels like the remake is missing something.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@despeinado340 I’ll take it lol. And I see what you’re saying about this too - the bizarrely zoomed out perspective isn’t doing it any favors either.

[@DreadnaughtZero]

I like the idea that you are personally staring down your foes and I am not bothered by the first person view in the slightest. Not gonna hate on you for your opinion but just dismissing it as a limitation not a style and shitting on entirely seems kind of over the top to me.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@DreadnaughtZero I feel like it began as a limitation and “evolved” into a style over time, which I feel is misguided. But I really just shit on it because it looks boring af to me. Just an unimaginably boring way to handle combat visuals. But if you like it, then more power to you. I honestly envy you - I really do. And for what it’s worth, I’m always much more down to clown with FPV when you can at least see your limbs swinging a weapon or brandishing a staff or what have you. It’s just this minimalist stuff that I can hardly stand. Like without even so much as seeing my limbs, I don’t feel like I’m staring the enemy down. I feel like I’m playing a literally incomplete product that hasn’t had combat fully animated yet.

[@MavZc]

Its a remake, there should be no reason why they could not make the characters show their moves during battle. I'm confident that most if not all would prefer their characters attack animation, rather than a quick cut out to a first person view.

[@orangeslash1667]

For some reason Dragon Quest has monster animations with no the character animations, but with Octopath Traveler it's the opposite.

[@kuropiko]

This is just how DQ combat is. I know you are dismissive to the legacy argument, but DQ frames its combat in this uniform way and has only broken away from that in turn based title rarely, in say XI, but even 3D titles prior to XI still utilized the first person combat as well as XI’s 3DS version (both styles if I recall). I imagine it’s also from an idea of self insertion, since DQ is more pure as an RPG compared to other JRPGs.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@kuropiko I’d argue it isn’t even how DQ combat is anymore though. It was for a long time, but 8, 9, 10, and 11 all moved away from it. Even the 3DS remake of 7 moved away from it. It seems like the franchise had decided to up the ante, and then just lazed out this time “because tradition.”

[@isidorodaviddoro1920]

​@@ThrillingDuckmy problem with the tiny Dragon Quest community is the fact that they hate changes in their franchises no matter if it is for the better or not. There isn't a good excuse for a 2024 Dragon Quest remake not to have a third person perspective

[@orangeslash1667]

@@isidorodaviddoro1920 Good news: the game as a battle speed option, meaning that you can battles go very fast.

[@isidorodaviddoro1920]

@@orangeslash1667 this doesn't really fix the lack of a third person view but okay

[@orangeslash1667]

@@isidorodaviddoro1920 Maybe the lack of animations helps the speed of the combat??? There's also Party Tactics, which allows your allies to attack automatically and even choose the allies strategy. For example (Limit MP ) limits the use of spells and (choose wisely) has them balance offensive and defensive moves.

[@dungeonmasterelk6735]

Nope. I like the first person pov in Dragon Quest. It highlights Akira Toriyama's art.

[@ThrillingDuck]

See the pinned comment.

[@dungeonmasterelk6735]

@@ThrillingDuck I saw and I still disagree. It's Toriyama's art. He's not just an artist. There is a whole franchise built around those monster designs (Dragon Quest Monsters). Also, the first person POV originated from the designers' original love for dungeon crawlers like Ultima and Wizardry. I see your point, I just disagree. We can always agree to disagree.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@dungeonmasterelk6735 Something I just noticed, Dragon Quest has monster animations with no the character animations, but with Octopath Traveler it's the opposite. S

[@adamkhan3341]

Whenever I decide to save money I keep coming back to this video. Thanks for saving my cash on this trash game

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@adamkhan3341 Lol well I mean this doesn’t make the whole game trash, but I agree that if they wanted to charge full price hey should have gone the extra mile.

[@WowThereBuddy1]

I totally agree.

[@SouthpawdSlayer94]

I hear what your saying but idc ive waited a long time for this remake.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@SouthpawdSlayer94 Bro, absolutely pick it up if you want it. People keep accusing me of “telling people not to buy the game” which is absolutely not this video’s message or intention.

[@SouthpawdSlayer94]

@ThrillingDuck I pre ordered it. I've been playing it. I agree with what your saying but at the same time. It's a remake if it was dragon quest 12 doing 1st person I'd be pissed

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@SouthpawdSlayer94 Lol fair

[@demoth]

i dont understand why u play a game design around nostalgia and expect them change their combat system. dragon quest 1-9 first person combat became it signature/ it only recently that they change over to 3rd person for 10 and 11.

[@ThrillingDuck]

Okay, first of all, this is not about the combat system, it's about the combat presentation. Secondly, DQ's FPV in combat only extends to 1-7. 8-11 all had third person, as did the remake of DQ7, and every Monsters spinoff title starting with the original DS, so FAR more of the franchise has already moved onto 3rd person than you gave credit for. It did not in any way "only change recently," it changed over a decade ago.

[@DIMASOKOL]

Do u think they will add it in 2 & 3 remakes?

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@DIMASOKOL Honestly, not at all. They’re gonna be using the same engine, assets, and overall style. I’d love to be wrong though!

[@anonrockwell7331]

I tried making an RPG Maker game as a kid and was turned off because you had to do first person battles and I hated that

[@jorel2212]

nostalgia excuse, easy money

[@matthewrodgers740]

Yep, because of the horrible first person combat I’m not buying this game Such a pity they should make an option to either be third person or first person for combat. That’s the whole reason I never got into these games that horrible first person combat crap