Drama in the board games industry (Meeplegate)

[@ms_hansel]

Thank you for such a thoroughly well-researched and clear explanation of this whole story! Yes, I am the Alison Hansel who coined the term. I am proud of how far my little meeple has gone in the world and appreciate all the wonderful gamers like you who continue to share its little origin story and my part in it. ☺

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Oh wow! THE Alison Hansel has entered the chat!! I'm so glad my video found you, I was wondering if it would. Thank you for coming up with such an iconic word that so many people have incorporated in so many fun ways! It must be so cool to see your word used in the names of games, stores, cafes, KZbin channels, podcasts, etc. etc.. I'm curious, how do you feel about your word being trademarked? No pressure to answer, but I am so glad you found my video and thanks again, Ms. Meeple!

[@ms_hansel]

@@PamWallsGameDesign Thanks for the kind words! I am still amazed at how gamers embraced my little word and made it so iconic in the boardgaming community. I try not to get involved in these discussions because I honestly do feel that the term belongs to the whole community at this point. I created the term and Hans im Glück created the piece, but gamers have made it what it is. I hope that it can continue to bring some joy and inspiration to gamers and game designers for a long time!

[@maximilianomartinmassera9609]

pls send a letter to hans im gluck stop bullyng small companies who cannot defend

[@agzofficial8594]

@@maximilianomartinmassera9609 how do you feel about the companies political change to the game? Supporting Ukraine.

[@maximilianomartinmassera9609]

@@agzofficial8594 wut? what it has to do supporting ukraine with trademarking the word meeple?

[@fricod4396]

Proposal: people of Hans im Glück and similar corporations are corporate people, or in short Cor-people, shall henceforth be referred to as 'Creeple'. License to freely use given to all non-corporate entities of any industry for all perpetuity.

[@timothyshiu8742]

🤣 Perfect!

[@angel_of_rust]

marketing/business people always seem to be the most soulless subhumans in any given situation ain't it weird?

[@RabidlyTaboo]

When you try to take a shot at the corporate and accidentally necro an old slur for people who cant walk XD

[@angel_of_rust]

@@RabidlyTaboo crips =/= creeps, dont worry

[@fricod4396]

@@angel_of_rust, yeah, seemingly, but in reality more like normal people doing bad and creepy things who can then justify it with "I'm doing a good job, therefore I'm doing good things, making me a good person" . But since their job is first and foremost "making money for the stakeholders" and the KPIs are all about how much you benefit the stakeholders and you don't get demerits for doing shitty things nor is there a KPI for 'doing good things' or something like that, we ended up with a system that promotes doing bad things.

[@HunterMayer]

We had this EXACT same issue with the word "Doodle" when the makers of Doodle Jump tried to trademark "Doodle". This is after the app stores had a "doodle" section. They got big and they thought they could roll everyone with Doodle in their app name. Gamers and devs rallied against them. We used the power of the collective voice. Not continuing to fight sets a precedence of acceptance. Doodle Jump eventually backed down after dealing with the blowback. Where is the "Free the Meeple" movement.

[@publicvoidmain]

This is a slightly different case tho. Lima Sky tried to trademark "doodle" in mostly English speaking context, i.e. the US, where doodle is a common word. Hans im Glück trademarked Meeple in Germany, where it is not at all a commonly used word. In German, if the word meeple is used at all, it's exactly for what HiG trademarked with EUIPO, everything else is basically just a Spielfigur.

[@AnonymousXIII]

Except that doodle is an actual word, so you'd have a harder time arguing any intellectual ownership of the word. Meeple is a portmanteau, which is how a lot of trademarked terms are created, and if the original person to coin the term didn't take steps to protect it, then it's technically fair game.

[@Grace-ms7un]

Doodle Bear from the 90s wants to protest 🎉

[@angrybidoof847]

Didn't the candy crush people do something similar?

[@princesspiranha]

@@angrybidoof847 Yes, they wanted to copyright the word: Saga. Because of Candy Crush Saga. :') It was ridiculous

[@IsaacIsaacIsaacson]

Warner Brothers straight up holds a trademark on the name Tasmanian Devil, an actual real animal, and has previously forced the Australian state of Tasmania to pay them license fees for using the name of the animal from their state. Meanwhile, Ugg trademarked the common Australian word "ugg" and then spent the last decade threatening Australian companies, including suing several into bankruptcy. The trademark board ruled that since its a common word in Australia but not the USA, common word protection didn't apply. Trademark laws are disgusting

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

😮

[@perwesterlund1725]

Reminds me a bit of Futurama, where the "Mom Corp" adds are listing in the end in a fast voice-over: "The words, 'mom' and 'love' are all registred trademarks of the Mom Corporation" I guess we've arrived.

[@davidbilich1708]

See the problem is yall don't have guns When the lawyer shows up and demands money, what are they gonna do?

[@publicvoidmain]

@@davidbilich1708 Well, if I can have a gun, the lawyer can as well...

[@PKLuver944]

Well, if you make the lawyers go outside the cities, the farmers have shotguns...

[@travisbuschette8609]

The fact that they didn't even come up with the word, but a random player did, makes this so much worse to me for some reason. That'd be like a trading card game trying to trademark a slang term that players come up with to describe common actions in a game, like milling

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Yes! 100%! And when people first reported on this situation they erroneously credited Hans im Glück or the designer of Carcassonne with inventing the word, so that somehow made it okay. But they didn’t even do that! The audacity. Thanks for watching, Travis 🙌

[@JamesVWorld]

Yeah, or a word like ‘tap’… Oh wait.

[@DrMcFly28]

Exactly this. They appropriated the term someone else came up with, started using it in rulebooks instead of their own, much less elegant term "follower", then they trademarked it, and now they're bullying small publishers for using it. Beyond disgusting.

[@BlakeFaeMorton]

@@JamesVWorld WotC does not actually police the term "Tap". It is just a case of no one in the industry wanting to take the risk to see if they would. Legally, they can't, but they might try it and the US legal system sucks.

[@StixFerryMan]

If a ‘slang’ term was used just for a certain game from one company, and not used it in any other, then I could understand jumping to make it a trademark term for your game. But this is different, since, as said, it was used by many other companies, other games, and other plays for those games independently, before all this, is what makes it ridiculous

[@The_Real_Danger_Mouse]

This is similar to Sony Interactive trademarking Kratos for their God of War franchise. The licensing board had no idea that Kratos was a person in the ancient Greek mythos. Writers like myself were forced to change character names in previously published works in order to avoid trademark violations. The trademark board admitted to "my bad" but also ruled that they were not into denying previously granted trademarks rights. They did, however, say that they would not renew the trademark to Sony Interactive when the current trademark expired in 2023. The entire registration was summarily cancelled on 07-17-2020 over Section 8 due to the persistent effort of writers who represented themselves. This does not undue the 6 years of bulling by Sony Interactive and no penalty was applied to Sony's willful misrepresentation. A similar case by Clark Smith was brought against the Mario franchise for use of Powerups. Smith was denied damages, but Sony's trademark on powerups was nullified.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Oh wow! Thanks so much for sharing this. I know if I dug even slightly deeper I’d find SO many more examples like this. It’s pretty wild and makes me not want to self publish even more than I already do, as they seem to go after small, indie designers/publishers.

[@professorhaystacks6606]

...Was that last 'Sony' supposed to read 'Nintendo'? Sony doesn't own Mario.

[@culturia3555]

Was Kratos a character in greek mythos?

[@stone5against1]

Why the fuck can't trademark boards just.. y'know.. USE GOOGLE!!! to fucking see if a word was already being in use or not, and the situation it was being used in... It's like if Nintendo decided to trademark Mario or Princess.. or Peach.. or whatever

[@stone5against1]

@@culturia3555 yes he was

[@RamDragon32]

I worked in the paintball industry in the early 2000's. A large company bought one of the oldest paintball companies and immediately sent out cease and desist claims to several companies, including the one i worked for. We had to shut down though there was no way the claim would hold up in court, but we couldn't fight. At a time when the industry was booming most, this company caused teh cosure of many small businesses making markers, upgrades, and custom parts. Reminds me of the time Hasbro acquired Wizards of the Coast and Dungeons and Dragons and then tried trademarking the 20 sided dice, thinking the term "D20" gave them ownership.

[@Phoenix2312]

HOLY COW! HOW DID I MISS THAT ONE!!! LMAO! You have got to be kidding me? Hasbro really tried to Trademark D20??? You know, I still love D&D ... If you wanted to convince me that Hasbro owning teh license was a bad idea... You could not do better than that! I already hate what they are doing to the Hobby!

[@RamDragon32]

@@Phoenix2312 It was a whole thing. So, TSR had used a system, based on the use of a d20 (or a cup full of numbered chips depending on your personal wargame preference) and was based on games used for centuries to recreate battles on tabletops. The d20 became popular because, obviously it would. After TSR was bought by WotC, during the development of 3E, they based the gameplay more centrally on the d20. In a classic WotC move, they decided to term the mechanic as The D20 System, but by then Hasbro had purchased WotC. Outside publishers started publishing supplementary material, referencing the D20 System, Hasbro saw how popular 3.5E had become, noticed other publishers starting to similar systems based on the D20 (like GURPS) and in classic fat-cat fashion decided there was no difference between the system and the dice. Court disagreed, fortunately.

[@TheWonkster]

When did they do that?

[@RamDragon32]

@@TheWonkster That was early 2000's. Shortly after publishing 3.5E while developing 4E. Of course, the first D20 was made in Greece about 2300 years ago so that didn't go far.

[@demonsquidgod]

This never happened. WotC has a trademark for the D20 System but not the die itself or as an image.

[@soogymoogi]

I think a boycott is fair. I understand game designers will be collateral damage, which is unfortunate, but there's not too many other ways to express displeasure with a business's actions directly other than hitting them directly in their wallet.

[@BewegteBilderrahmen]

Yes, in fact their designers should have taken action, they are partially and tacitly complicit

[@soogymoogi]

@@BewegteBilderrahmen i don't consider them complicit unless they're part of the company itself or sold their game to hans after this fiasco happened. Most game designers aren't directly associated with a single company (except people like Jamie Stegmaier or Keith Matejka who also own publishers, but those are the minority), they pitch their design with multiple companies. Designers who sold their games to hans before this had no idea it'd happen. I think it'd be nice if they could make a statement regarding it if possible but I don't hold those designers accountable at all.

[@BewegteBilderrahmen]

@@soogymoogi fair enough, and yes, I would consider making public statements quite enough for generally unaffiliated designers and other workers, maybe a broader message by the designer community in general questioning further cooperation with the publisher would be most effective.

[@soogymoogi]

@@BewegteBilderrahmen i agree that a statement signed by a bunch of designers would be good. Unfortunately I don't have anything published yet, so I can't really make any waves there 😅

[@storerestore]

I disagree that it's even unfortunate: the more damage a boycott causes, the more pressure there will be to address the cause. It's only desirable that business partners (in this case designers whose games Hans im Glück are publishing) are affected.

[@Nyundaa]

That trademark should never have been approved in the first place and they know it. I will absolutely be boycotting because they will not stop unless their bottom line is threatened, they will not care if a small game does well.

[@zimrasawyer1881]

My father is a recycling crafter, and he constantly gets letters from Jack Daniel's, Jim Beam and other large liquor companies, who say he is to cease and desist creating his lamps with their recycled bottles because he is using their trademarked imaging. Large companies lawyers love to threaten people who don't have money to access legal council.

[@Justnothankyou132]

Tell me you don't know how trademark infringement works without telling me... "You must proactively protect and defend your trademark from infringement in order to keep your trademark protection active. Failure to do so may result in the loss of your trademark." Please educate yourself.

[@chcuakeof9xh]

Learn to speak when spoken to, dog ​@@Justnothankyou132

[@franslair2199]

​@@Justnothankyou132that's not what trademarks mean. If i sold Jim Beam liquor Jim Beam would lose the trademark. Recycling their bottles doesn't do shit

[@Justnothankyou132]

@@franslair2199 if you can clearly identify which product is being upcycled or recycled then yes trademark infringement is still occurring. Research it yourself if you don't believe me. 🤡🤡🤡

[@dmDerZorn]

I am a german gamer and would-be game designer , and have never heard from this before, and I am shocked. Hans Im Glück has always been one of my first stops at Essen, and now I feel like being friends with Lego executives... dirty . What is there to be won, other than being THAT guy on the block ?

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Yeah I’m not quite sure what their reasoning or goal is….. except to make a lot of people angry 😅 Thanks for watching!

[@publicvoidmain]

But "Meeple" is not a common German term. If you don't know the term from English games, you'd rather say Spielfigur, and really except hardcore gamers or within game titles I've (within the last 20-odd years) never heard someone say meeple while talking in German. So within Germany the trademark is justified, and with the kickstarter targeting German customers, the action against the usage without license is justified/necessary to keep the trademark. For the kickstarter guys, it probably would have been enough to change the German title, but that actually might create more additional costs than changing the title as a whole.

[@timothyelmer5469]

What's wrong with Lego executives?

[@publicvoidmain]

@@timothyelmer5469 I think that's also a Germany thing? Lego has been stopping the import of other companies' interlocking bricks for EUIPO design "patents", which often times shouldn't have been granted in the first place. Like, EUIPO rejected a design of a 4 by 4 circular plate as being trivial and technical, but accepted the same thing in 6 by 6. Mostly it's the mini figure they're attacking, and they attack basically everything that is human shaped as not distinctive enough to their own figurines. This has cost small shops several hundreds of thousands of Euros, while the manufacturers are left alone (albeit this is mostly because they're stationed in Asia and outside of the EUIPO's jurisdiction). This, however, might be one of the reasons they don't start their own import companies in Europe.

[@BryanLu0]

​@@publicvoidmainI doubt most of the other board games she mentioned in the video have German specific Meepleless titles

[@tonyallen4265]

Meeple. Yeah. I said it. I'm a rebel. Bring it on Hands I'm Glued

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

🤣 Try saying it three times in a row to see what happens 👀

[@tonyallen4265]

@@PamWallsGameDesign I'm scared.

[@SharienGaming]

@@PamWallsGameDesign Meeple Meeple Meeple! come at me greedy hans! XD

[@guddefulgaming]

​@@tonyallen4265 Im not. Im Also german though. 😂

[@AlexBarrGameDev]

I hate to see a big company like this bullying indies. It's just absurd. It would be like Tolkien's family suing an indie novelist for the use of "Orc" in their book despite it being used in so many books, movies and games over the years. I really wish we had better public domain laws to protect creativity.

[@Unpopularity]

Yup well now the "Meeple Inc. victims who were bullied" were "forced to rename" and are trying to trademark "Tabletop". So, how big of victims are they? They're a creepy group of small devs who are absolutely determined to trademark universal categorical game jargon. I'd argue the "Meeple Inc." the "2 small dev group" so-called company tried to trademark is leagues less greedy and ignorant than now trying to own the actual word "Tabletop" in reference to tabletop games. These people are super suspect themselves. Not once, but twice; they doubled-down by going after a larger universal category to make it "their proprietary term". It doesn't matter if they intend to be predatory, the fact they're trying to own universal generic game terms repeatedly is extremely suspicious and will, regardless, spark anxiety among retailers and devs.

[@AlexBarrGameDev]

@@Unpopularity well I can’t speak to them trying to take the meeple name for their own as I don’t know all that much about this situation, if what you say is true than that’s not cool either, however it doesn’t seem that way from my perspective; from what I’ve heard so far all they are doing is using a common name which everyone has been using. No one would be saying anything if they had used any other name like “people” instead of meeple, and why would they? It’s just a Common word. Now as for trademarking “tabletop”, that sounds to me like they are making a statement rather than actually trying to get that trademark. It’s obviously going to lose and that’s the point - if they DON’T get the trademark then what separates “meeple” from “tabletop” if they are both common terms? That decision would back up their case that meeple is fine to use.

[@Zectifin]

@@Unpopularity did they trademark "tabletop Inc" or just the word tabletop?

[@BryanLu0]

​@@UnpopularityApple is also a trademark, you know. Even if a brand name is a common word, it can have a trademark, and you can continue to use it as usual without repercussion

[@TwoEcksKay]

You use Orcs as an example but isn't this exactly why the word Halfling exists instead of just calling them Hobbits?

[@Milkymalk]

You experienced a very warped (ie., modernized and "tamed down") version of the tale. In the old version that I know (I am in my fourties, so not THAT old) Hans does not willingly "downgrade" his possession, but is talked into trading by people taking advantage of his naivety until he only has a useless rock that he throws away. The morale is to not believe everything that people tell you and use your own head when deciding what is beneficial for you.

[@hypothalapotamus5293]

After this story Hans's mother decided that her son was less useful than the goose on her farm and ate him for dinner instead. The end.

[@GargoyleBard]

The American "protective trademark" is an interesting bit of misunderstanding IP law. As in Germany, in order to hold a trademark, you have to actively use the term/symbol as a sign of your company. As long as you do so, the trademark remains valid, but if you choose not to protect it then it lapses; as a result, allowing everyone to use your trademark immediately and legally makes the trademark invalid. Copyright and patent, on the other hand, *do* work that way, and there are numerous examples (mainly within copyright) of people copyrighting material for the purpose of protecting its free use. Creative Commons is an organization specifically founded to help people do just that, and within software the GNU General Public License is a similar license designed to contractually provide maximum freedom by taking advantage of the preexisting system, in a very real sense using the system against itself. IP law is absolutely fascinating, and absolutely broken.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Thank you so much for sharing this insight! You made a really good point about the trademark becoming invalid if everyone is allowed to use it. So that would mean Hans im Glück very likely won’t issue a statement saying everyone can use meeple, they would have to revoke the trademark… yes very interesting, and complicated, stuff! Thanks for watching and commenting 🙌

[@ZeKiwiOfTheNorth]

+

[@maximusdarja]

Exactly! Trademarks in the US must be vigorously defended. You cannot "open source" them like a copyright(left) or patent. You can only abandon them, for someone else to claim.

[@thomasf55]

Also, trademarks are market specific -- a particular mark may indicate one company in country A and a different company in country B. Probably the best know example of this is "Budweiser". Anheuser-Busch owns that trademark in the U.S. while the Czech company Budweiser Budvar owns it in most of Europe. Those two companies have been fighting over the Budweiser trademark since the late 19th century. Also "Baldwin" is used in the U.S. by a manufacturer of bathroom accessories (e.g. soap dishes) and also by a manufacturer of pianos.

[@professorhaystacks6606]

I don't know enough about copyright, but patents only half work that way in the US (not sure about elsewhere): In the US, something that has been 'publicly disclosed'', such as by posting to a social media site or publication at a conference, cannot generally be patented unless that disclosure was by an inventor or joint inventor or someone who obtained the information from them (interestingly it does not specify 'legally' obtained) and the disclosure was within 1 year prior to the effective date of application. So those wishing to keep an invention publicly available don't need to apply for a patent, they just need to go public with it before someone else does if they were the inventor. If they weren't the inventor then that just forces the inventor to file before they were maybe ready, but if you aren't the inventor I'm not sure why you'd be trying to do this anyway.

[@jonothanthrace1530]

After 17 years, the word "Meeple" definitely should count as a Term Of Art.

[@DrMcFly28]

I disagree about the boycott - the community has a responsibility to condemn behaviour such as this, and hitting big companies' profit margin is the only way to get their attention. There might be collateral damage, sure, but boardgame designers can also start reconsidering with which publishers they want to collaborate, and not affiliate with those who openly practice predatory and exploitative strategies.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Yes, I definitely won’t pitch any concepts to them, and I hope other designers boycott them too. It is unfortunate for the designers who already have games with them being caught in the crosshairs, considering our royalties are already ridiculously low.

[@timothyoldson2272]

The problem I see with that is sometimes these designers may not have a lot of choices in which publisher wants to pick up their game. What if as awesome as their game is, that is the ONLY publisher that will publish their game. That could dash their dreams of getting that great game out there.

[@BoardGameCasualChannel]

I agree 100%. I feel bad for any designers of course, but there is absolutely no room for deceitful companies like this in the board game industry! It's one thing if a company is taking advantage of their customers, but THIS company is doing ACTIVE HARM to other board game publishers!!

[@rileymcphee9429]

If I was in the shoes of one of these designers with a game under Hans im Glück, I would be looking into all my options. Maybe it's too cost-prohibitive to demand your contract be voided, but I'd definitely look over that contract with my lawyer. Maybe you could argue this move is a breach of contract by Hans im Glück, or suit for damages to your reputation based on the association.

[@BoardGameCasualChannel]

@@rileymcphee9429 Totally!

[@ludwigmises]

Reminds me a Baltimore restaurant owner on Gordon Ramsay’s show. In the southern US, some people say “hon”, short for “honey”. As in, “Would you like more tea, Hon?” The owner of “Cafe Hon” actually trademarked the word “hon” and then had the audacity to threaten legal action against neighbors for uttering the word in their establishments. All she accomplished was earning a nasty reputation and a dying restaurant. The lesson is, just because you CAN do something legally, doesn’t mean you should.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Oh that is WILD! My friend also told me some guy in the midwest trademarked the word Aloha and sent cease and desist letters for any businesses who used the word, including those in Hawaii! Some people really have the nerve…. Thanks for watching and sharing, hon 🙌

[@viewergreg]

Yes! The Cafe Hon controversy was the first thing that came to my mind when I saw this video! According to Baltimore TV station WJZ's website, the owner later relinquished the trademark, saying "It was a business decision. It was a bad decision." This came after a few protesters gathered outside the restaurant and she got a lot of blow-back from the community.

[@JoshKablack]

Yet another example of just how flawed current IP laws are.

[@gryphon9185]

@@PamWallsGameDesign there was a a guy a long time back who trademarked the word Edge and was bit of a trademark troll with in the video game industry for a while until the US trademark office cancelled his trademark.. Candy Crush tried trademarking the word Candy and Sky TV tried trademarking Sky. Neither were successful IIRC but am unsure. Unfortunately there seems be a bit of history of people trying to trademark common words.

[@stone5against1]

wow that an idiot.. sadly I saw so many similar stories in the past :/

[@stefanlienhard3012]

Ironically a company that makes such a big deal about a patent of a word has borrowed their very own name from a famous fairytale of Brother’s Grimm.

[@jamesflames6987]

Those fairy tales are long out of copyright.

[@Banterbear]

Public Domain though

[@jeffe2267]

How is this ironic? Do you not know what irony means?

[@stefanlienhard3012]

@@jeffe2267 synonyms of ironically (Collins dictionary): paradoxically, absurdly, incongruously, ambiguously. feel free to choose what fits best for you.

[@x3tc1]

@@jeffe2267 The Grimm brother's also just collected fairy tales from all around France and Germany and claimed them as their own.

[@ilz_y]

Omgsh the algorithm finally blessed me with the Board Game drama side of KZbin 😭

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

🍿 🍿 🍿

[@jonathanj8303]

The two US folk seeking to register Meeple as a trade mark there may actually have a good plan. In many jurisdictions, once you've registered a trade mark, you have to both use it, and if necessary, defend it. If you don't use it, or let others infringe it, then afterbafter a while it becomes invalid and automatically public domain. In the UK this period is 5 years, but i think in the US it might be only 2. So if their plan was to register it and then stand aside while someeone jsed it without permission, that should - at least in principle - leave it locked permanently as un-trade-mark-able.

[@Muhahahahaz]

Exactly… She seems so against it, yet this is exactly what needs to be done lol

[@katherinek6166]

I'm not familiar with EU trademark law, but in US it's "must defend," meaning the fact that the Hans im Gluck isn't suing absolutely everybody else using meeples for the trademark breech would be grounds for dismissal of the trademark here. Unlike copyright, you can't defend trademark selectively under US trademark law.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Right?! That doesn’t make any sense to me! How can they say “Oh sure, Meeple City, Meeple Land and Meeple War are fine, but Meeple Inc?? No way.” Like, what?

[@Muhahahahaz]

Well yes, but they don’t have to defend it worldwide… Perhaps they are only defending it in Germany. (Not that they should even have it in the first place, mind you)

[@Zectifin]

@@Muhahahahaz meeple inc was a UK company

[@Idran]

​​@@Zectifinyeah, but if the game was available in Germany, it would still apply; it's not where a company is based that matters, it's where a product is being sold. Of course, you can send a C&D for anything. They don't have any legal power, they're just a warning that a lawsuit will follow if you don't stop. There's no guarantee that it will hold up, but no way to be sure without going to trial with all the costs of that, so it's easy to bully smaller creators with them.

[@mudcrab3420]

"Castle sort of looking heads"... (giggle... So... almost as if they were wearing a crown?)

[@Muhahahahaz]

Same 😂

[@douggie4665]

Nah, people wore wore castles on their head during them olden days

[@avery581]

@@douggie4665As was the style at the time, of course

[@paulhammer2279]

I was reminded of the kerfuffle over Games Workshop going after the novel "Spots the Space Marine" by M,C.A. Hogarth because they say they owned the trademark for the term "Space Marine." It did not end well for them.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Thanks for letting me know about that, I hadn’t heard of it and looked it up. I’m so glad MCA fought back and that Amazon actually listened! Makes me wonder if Maddie and Joe had approached Gamefound about it, maybe they could have stepped in and helped…

[@camipco]

For reference "space marine" was first used by Bob Olson in 1932 in Amazing Stories because it's just pretty much the obvious thing to call them since soldiers who attack from regular ships are already called marines and these are the same as that, except spaceships. Games Workshop first used the term in 1993.

[@twilight-2k]

Yep. That's why all generic terms in Warhammer (40k at least) were replaced with things that could be trademarked (ex Space Marine became Adeptus Astartus).

[@tygris5203]

@@twilight-2k Not just 40k, they changed orcs and ogres to slightly-mispronounced but very-copyrightable names like Orruks and Ogors (ahem) for their fantasy Age Of Sigmar setting

[@tygris5203]

It's also a case of bullying a small self-published author rather than going after big games like Halo, Starcraft etc.

[@Shining4Dawn]

This gets even weirder when a game like Isle Of Cats has cat-shaped Meeples or when Root has anthropomorphic Meeples. It's gone way beyond "My people" and into the territory of any thin wooden shape used as a pawn in a board game.

[@pm71241]

I wonder if Hans im Glück has considered the Barbra Streisand effect. I guess a lot of hobby gamers will not be buying Hans im Glück games anymore. Side take-away ... IP-lawyers are under perverse incentive structures. Granting frivolous patents and trademarks create more work for them.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Yes let’s all use Meeple in our titles and flood the market with everything meeple and see what they do about that lol

[@travisbuschette8609]

@@PamWallsGameDesign Already getting to work on my new game The Meeplest Meeple in all of Meepletown!

[@terencemccormick8178]

I won't touch a Gluck game now, for sure. I've only been into games since a little over six years ago; I wonder that I never heard of this action in that time.

[@stone5against1]

@@PamWallsGameDesign MeepamMeepallsMeepMeepign (ok that's as best as i could do without my brain shutting down)

[@stone5against1]

@@travisbuschette8609 How many Meeples could a Meeple Meep if a Meeple could Meep Meeps?

[@Kasandra_]

I disagree about the boycott of HiG. The only way we can stop a company from doing evil (such as trademark trolling) is by hitting them in the pocket, the impact will be primarily to future releases and thus designers affected will be mostly ones that signed on after meeplegate - so if they sign on it'll be with the knowledge who they're dealing with unless they greatly neglect doing their due diligence. The message we'll send by letting them get away with it is that they should do it more. In fact this is exactly what's happening in the tabletop miniatures industry, with a certain manufacturer (allegedly) harassing and patent trolling small artisans and abusing a loophole in EU laws to acquire a monopoly on products they have neither invented nor even manufactured. Not to mention I personally just wont get nearly as much enjoyment out of a game if I bought it from icky people.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

I definitely understand what you’re saying, and I won’t pitch any game concepts to them and I hope other designers also boycott pitching ideas to them too.

[@HarryBuddhaPalm]

People should boycott Carcassonne because it's a terrible game.

[@BoardgameHeaven]

Exactly. If they get boycotted enough, their designers will eventually also choose a different publisher. I hope they'll feel the consequences of their actions come Spiel 2024. I'd love to see their booth just empty. Meeple isn't even a German word! And what is there to gain by trademarking a word like "meeple" or "tapping" for that matter? It makes no sense! It's just seeing dollarsigns! It's disgusting.

[@knghtbrd]

Not only boycott-I had no idea this is happening. We should, and I will never miss the opportunity again, to ensure that any time HiG's products are even peripherally mentioned, the corporation is __eviscerated__ for exploitative lawfare over a thing they didn't actually invent but claim ownership of: The term meeple.

[@BoardGameCasualChannel]

I agree 100%. I feel bad for any designers of course, but there is absolutely no room for deceitful companies like this in the board game community! This company is ACTIVELY HARMING other board game publishers!!

[@TheoreticalString]

I think writing a really bad application for the Trademark in the US is a great idea. Just write one that makes sure to emphasize that you took the term from other companies, that it's commonly used, and that part of the benefit is that it's generic and you want the Trademark to it. Then when it gets rejected, shrug and go "okay" and if they grant it to anyone else you can point to the rejected application to say "wait, why did you reject theirs and not this other person's?"

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Yes, I hope that this is actually their plan all along… but it’s not clear. It seems like they actually want to get the trademark…. We will have to see, but I hope you are right!

[@Kenvie2000]

That's a good idea

[@tobiwie]

The explanation of the "Hans im Glück" origin story was such a badass mic-drop! Thanks for the video! :)

[@Russwig]

In the US, if you don't enforce a trademark, you lose the rights to it. Therefore, if what you say is accurate, HiG will lose the right to whatever they think they have by "letting" their "friends" have access to it. A trademark must be 100% or nothing. With that said, I don't believe they had the right to trademark in the first place in 2017! This is poor planning. Good for you for bringing this to light!

[@shotgunheist6536]

Hi, I’m a trademark and copyright attorney. Great overview love the combo of my work and hobbies. One correction on your commentary - EU trade mark registrations that were protected as of December 2020 were automatically replaced by UK rights when they left the EU, so they likely had the UK rights to also assert

[@alexwatters2411]

This is true and I was coming here to note it if no-one else did, but note that only EUTM ones were transferred, not German ones. So the claim that they could stop the game from from being called Meeple Inc or referring to Meeples was not legally justifiable. It still might benefit the UK designers to move away from the Meeple Inc title, but solely because of merchandising, not because of the game itself. Hans im Gluck wouldn't even have been able to take them to court here for the game.

[@Domineas]

How to destroy your credibility as a publisher in 3 simple steps. These sorts of lawsuits will continue to grow as the VC money keeps trying to capitalize on and pour into the tabletop gaming market. The only reason that this would be worthwhile to them is if they no longer have any intent to publish future games as game designers are unlikely to trust them. Many of their games are co-published by Rio Grande Games, and I could see Rio Grande eyeing an exit to Asmodee, in which case owning this trademark could be a valuable pawn for that sale. No one will ever trust or work with them again.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Yes, I know I personally won’t pitch any concepts to them and I hope other designers boycott them as well.

[@vulpinemachine]

I'm working on starting up a Local Game Store in our little town. I will not be carrying Hans im Gluck's products for the time being.

[@Fabulist]

Boycotts impacting their bottom line is the only language these companies understand. If you want them to back down and not start trademarking words like Dice and Token, then you need to hit them where it hurts. If you give them an inch, they’ll take a mile. Unfortunately, governments tend to back the bigger companies, moreso in recent years, but it’s been happening forever. In the mid-90s when the Cleveland Browns moved their NFL franchise to Baltimore and changed the team name to the Ravens, there was already an existing Baltimore Ravens team. A *wheelchair* *basketball* team. Who had been using the name since 1970. Take a look at which Baltimore Ravens team exists today. Yeah, vote with your wallet. Boycott.

[@sonamadinolf6096]

This crap is happening in a ton of industries. In the genre of fantasy/sci fi, someone trademarked the sub-genre "LitRPG" in _2016_ . These are books that take place in RPG worlds, either with players trapped in the game ala Swordart Online (2002), or isekai'd to a world governed by game mechanics ala Andre Norton's Quag Keep (1978).

[@josephpilkus1127]

This was a great piece, illuminating the issue. Honestly, if I received a C&D from a foreign country, I'd probably frame it and not dignify it with a response...adorable, but no force under U.S. law. I'm not a fan of large companies picking on small creatives in the field. Several years before launching what became a very successful KS in the nascent days of the platform, I reached out to discuss licensing for my product, which were component and card trays for FFG's Arkham Horror game. When they declined the license, I informed them that I was reaching out in anticipation of collaboration, not asking permission. In the end, I simply ran the KS as a set of component and card trays for any horror-themed game. I'm glad that you're showcasing these types of games and the perils that can ensue. Our hobby is still young, which is why it's trying to deal with AI at the same time it's still quarreling over paid reviews and previews. In the years, ahead as the industry matures, hopefully it will do so with collaboration and warmth, and not through an army of attorneys.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

I hope so too, Joseph! Thanks for watching and commenting 🙌

[@bazzatron9482]

I petition that the wooden tokens used in Carcassonne are now the only tokens _not_ designated as meeple. Also, it is absolutely a comical misstep for cogito ergo meeple to not rebrand as "cogito ergo follower" and "follower inc."

[@KairuHakubi]

Gotta love a world where they try to enforce ownership rights while people constantly register trademarks they don't own I'm reminded of how they actually changed Mrs. Frisby to "Brisby' in rats of NIMH movie, because they were worried about the notoriously litigious owners of "Frisbee" Nevermind that Frisby is a name. Nevermind that it's the name of a company that made pies, and their pie plates are what invented the disk-throwing game, and the toy company stole that.

[@Muhahahahaz]

11:49 “I’m not a huge fan of this” If good people don’t trademark it, then some evil company will. They are literally being proactive to keep the word free to use. I applaud them 👏

[@mrorange8576]

Copyright and trademark laws should exist to protect the little guys from having their stuff stolen. In reality it's used so big companies can bully people and hoard characters, ideas, words etc they didn't even create themselves or that have been around for decades.(Which is exactly what happened in this case) So many things should be public domain that are not (Star wars, Mickey Mouse, DC/Marvel heros etc)

[@patrickstangier9487]

Great video and good research. To answer the question "Why did those other games that used the word Meeple or the iconic meeple shape did not get hit by a letter from Hans im Glück?": They had permission by HiG. If you look at the (german, for some reason some of the english ruleboooks sometimes exclude that part ;) ) rulebooks for nearly all of the games you mentioned, you will find that they include a small line crediting or thanking HiG. The noteable exception is Monsters & Meeples. And the reason for that is that Monsters & Meeples is not available in a german version. So it is not that HiG is targeting small indie publishers, it is simply that the other publishers asked permission or were not relevant to the german market. Cotswold Games on the other hand was offering a german version of Meeple Inc. AND shipping to Germany, thus clearly targeting the german market, requiring HiG to take action. HiG is not trying to set a precedent, they are trying to prevent one. Because, as you mentioned in the video, inaction when knowing of a possible violation can lead to a weakening or even loss of the trademark. To me there are two relevant points in this discussion: A) Should someone be able to own a trademark for a (in the area it is applied) common term? Personally a clear no from me. And I have not seen any comment stating a different opinion. B) How much can we expect from indie publishers, especially in the legal department? For me checking the IP status of my games title in the four languages I want to publish would have been a no-brainer. But maybe that's just me? What do others think? All of this drama could have been avoided if HiG didn't have the trademark or CG had asked for permission, heck I even think that if CG had talked with HiG after receiving the letter all would have been fine. However I completely understand them renaming and I also think it is the better approach in the long run, because it removes the risk of HiG possibly changing their mind later.

[@AmstradHero]

Is that you, Hans Im Gluck? Furthermore, this just CEMENTS the fact that their trademark should be invalidated entirely, everywhere. If they're allowing *everyone* to use it, then they're not enforcing their trademark. In addition, they're ONLY enforcing in German, and thus they ONLY had a right to issue a cease and desist against the GERMAN copies of the game, and not the game title which is not infringing anywhere outside of Germany, which would allow them to have a translated version of materials specificially for the German market that calls the game Tabletop Inc instead of Meeple Inc there, and nowhere else. No matter what wafer thin justification is attempted, HiG are still not meeting the requirements of a trademark and their trademark absolutely should be invalidated - just like it never should have been granted in the first place. Getting a trademark for something invented by someone *else* is quite frankly a heinous abuse of IP law.

[@patrickstangier9487]

​@@AmstradHero Ha, if I were HiG I have spent too much money on my own games in the past :D But not being HiG I have absolutely no idea what the letter CG got actually said. All we have on that front is that HiG claims it was not a cease&desist and that it was harshly worded, probably more than it needed to be. Only the two involved companies know the exact content of that letter. Other than that? Yes, IP laws suck! And I am with you 100% that they should never have gotten the trademark. There are very good reasons why we have IP laws, but their implementation is often absurd. Let's eat an Apple (TM Apple) and THINK (TM IBM) about it ... or maybe better not. And the most crazy thing? That HiG got the Trademark actually proves that what they did was the right thing to do. If they can get the trademark that means the someone else could have gotten it. And that someone might have handled stuff very differently. About 25 years ago here in Germany we had the case where the "Allianz Versicherungsgesellschaft" (Alliance Insurance) sued basically everything with "Allianz" in their name. Music Group? Sued. World of Warcraft fanpage? Sued. And so on. All over a completely common word. Want to guess how many of those few who actually went to court about this emerged victorious? None, all had to bow to the larger legal presence of the Allianz Versicherungsgesellschaft :( With that background you might understand why HiG felt the need to protect themselves. And HiG achieved that, with the downside that they are now required by law to send pretty clear letters to anyone who might be violating the trademark. Could HiG have handled this better? Yes, but so could have CG. Should we be mad at companies who are forced to play this IP game or should we feel sorry for them?

[@AmstradHero]

@@patrickstangier9487 All HiG needed to do was to go "hey, we own this trademark. Please ask us to use it". But they chose to go down the cease and desist route. Yes, we should absolutely be mad at them, for going after a small designer who can't defend themselves against this kind of unscrupulous behaviour.

[@patrickstangier9487]

​@@AmstradHero The problem there is that german law requires a certain amount of effort to be put into protecting a trademark and a "please ask us" could be seen as not being enough (there we are again with the stupid IP laws). Now I don't doubt CG when they perceived it as a cease & desist, but, as has been shown, this isn't something they have much experience in and HiG said it was not a cease & desist letter. Neither of us has seen the letter, so I suggest we give both parties the benefit of the doubt here that what they say is true from their point of view until we can make an informed choice. I'm not mad at HiG for sending that letter, because I understand that, however stupid it may be, it was something they were forced to do. I'm not mad at CG for changing their game, I even think that is better for them in the long run (and even the short run considering the publicity they got from this). What I am mad about is that, at least as far as I can tell, neither HiG nor CG at any point said "Hey, let's talk". They BOTH messed up.

[@AmstradHero]

@o.b.7217 How cute! You think it's much better to trademark something that someone else came up with, and is essentially a commonplace term, and then bully smaller companies into bowing down to you because you got a trademark on something that never ever should have been awarded. When even CMON are saying "no, that shouldn't be trademarked", then you're in the wrong. This trademark shouldn't exist. Full stop. End of story.

[@citizensnips1012]

I have already adopted the term "bleeple". Thanks to my lovely wife for coming up with it😂

[@thebritness9419]

trademark "bleeple" asap lol

[@Tommy.Kerbow]

Great video! I’m a labor and employment lawyer so I can’t help with the technical side. This video has convinced me to cancel my U.S. trademark application for the following words: orthogonal, Ameritrash, kingmaker, and replayability. 😂

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Tommy The Kingmaker! 😂 Thanks for watching 🙌

[@Vorpal_Wit]

This reminds me of the time the lawyers at Games Workshop, then working with an LOTR License ,sent a cease and desist letter to a theater group performing an adaptation of Tolkien's Silmarillion, because they were using the word "Eldar". Lol!

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

@@Vorpal_Wit 😮 Some people truly have no shame 🤦‍♀️

[@ardyer3]

IP attorney here, you have the "right" to send a cease and desist letter to anyone you want for anything. The idea is that you can defend wonderful suits in court.

[@phoenixdblack]

I mean, yeah, of course you can, but even you must see the issue of small indie studios to be easily bullied and intimidated. Classic Slapp.

[@ardyer3]

@@phoenixdblack I absolutely see the issue and it's weaponized all the time. My comment was a direct reply to something in the video Pam said about she wasn't sure why they had the right to send the C&D

[@phoenixdblack]

@@ardyer3 Ah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I can recommend writing a timestap like (1:23) before directly commenting on something in the middle of a video, that way you make sure people have an easier time to understand your comment in context

[@Halbmond]

It’s at 9:00

[@Muhahahahaz]

As a non-attorney (though I do try to keep myself educated about the law and how courts operate), I was literally yelling this at my screen 😂 This is exactly how the big companies win. Sending a scary-looking letter is always legal, and practically free for them. Of course they’re gonna do it if they can scare you into doing what they want (Although yeah, I suppose there’s always the issue of anti-SLAPP laws. I’ve heard of them before, but I don’t know how well they may or may not protect/apply against such scare tactics However, even if it was always a 100% slam-dunk, the small indie company would still need to go to court over it, which the big company knows is too expensive for them)

[@oldgeek59]

I was once in a similar situation. In the 1980s I had developed a PBM game called Fleet Maneuvers, and I received a cease and desist order from Paramount's attorneys. Ultimately it force me to be more creative and the customer base loved the new edition.

[@timduncan6750]

If they get the Trademark for meeple in the US they could put it under a Creative Commons license which would allow anyone to use it.

[@marcbennett9232]

Hans im Glück is reprehensible. I understand why, but I wish they were pushed back against more. simply supporting the indie publishers is great, but its not enough. Hans im Glück needs some kind of consequence.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Maybe another hero (with money) will step in to challenge their trademark… 👀 Thanks for watching!

[@maarten3811]

Great video! I wonder what Asmodee will think of their partner? 😮

[@rossstewart9475]

Don't be too quick to jump on Hans im Glück here: It's far more likely to be a rogue UK law firm justifying their retention fee, necessitated by the UK's withdrawl from the EU. As part of the political agreement between the UK and EU, the UK's Intellectual Property Office created a UK trademark for every EU trademark up to 1st January 2021.

[@Derek-le4er]

Awesome informative video!!! Great job. It's wild that there's concrete evidence that shows an individual gamer coined the term herself, and then Carcassonne used that. And now here we are. So bizarre!!

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Yeah it’s pretty wild! Justice for Alison! 😂 Thanks for watching, Derek 🙌

[@ITAmich]

You know what's funny? A friend of mine very recently asked me for a list of good tabletop games to try out as a newcomer into the hobby. I was in the process of writing it when I saw your video. Now in said list Carcassonne isn't present anymore, it's in a footnote with your video link as to reason why it isn't. There is also another footnote where I heavily encourage him to use the term "meeple" to describe any token that represent people in board games as I've been doing for decades (sue me Hans Im Gluck).

[@manuelkooijman5757]

Meeple Land came out after 2019 but HiG did not go after that because it was Blue Orange and they probably have deep pockets but this small publisher just backed down whereas they only needed to change the name in Germany or just not offer it in Germany. For the rest of the world they could have kept the name.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Yes and Meeple Inc likely only had to change their name for the German version, but chose to change it all together, I am assuming.

[@Squirreltasticqueen]

I will be honest never heard of meeple before in my entire life. Every word you listen as "common" I have. Which is why people who are into these niche things are so important in educating. Because abusing copyright grinds my gears, there's always some a hole trying stuff like this and fans of these things are the canary in the coal mine.

[@notme222]

Assuming German law is not too different from the US: 1) The Patent & Trademark Office only registers the paperwork. The actual decision is made in a courtroom where parties can bring evidence. (For the most part. The PTO will do a simple search against similar names already in their database so they don't grant the same mark to 2 entities.) 2) The purpose of a trademark is to indicate what your business is so that people can tell it apart. Everything you're describing is called "descriptive use" and is exactly where trademark doesn't apply. I'm pretty sure it would lose in court. Of course you have to go to court to do that, but all things considered that is the proper entity for these decisions.

[@morganwolf]

USPTO denying the application would more importantly set a president on other companies applying for the trademark as well

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Yes, I really hope it is denied, as it should be. We will see!

[@Ian-R-Wilz]

Love the video. This whole ordeal has just been crazy. I love your insight on board game ideas.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Thanks so much, Ian! 🤗

[@Rancorous_Redwood]

This rather reminds me of the massive fights over the copywriting of the term "firecider" in the herbalist community. The final outcome of that was that every company trying to take over the patent subsequently went down in flames for stealing the community's work

[@rileymcphee9429]

Carcasonne trying to copyright Meeples is like Yahtzee trying to copyright dice.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

👆

[@BadgerOfTheSea]

The tone of voice in "It's in the dictionary and everything!" really conveyed the innocent excitement I can imagine the original quote giver had when they said it. That was high quality story telling.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

@@BadgerOfTheSea haha thanks Tom! :)

[@meeplesandminiatures]

You are a True Treasure, I so Appreciate your posts, Thank You Pam!!

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Omg! Thank you so much!!! 😭 😭 😭

[@rainbowunicode8352]

Thank you for such a thoughtful and objective narrative of the situation. This is what modern journalism could (and should) look like: someone calmly presenting the facts, explaining who has a stake and who has been impacted, and encouraging the audience to think critically and provide feedback as a means of developing community awareness.

[@guilhemebaccari6511]

Really important video with the seriousness it deserves, thanks Pam!

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Thanks for watching!

[@Toonaria]

What a sad situation. As a small, board game publisher my heart goes out to the publisher who was put through that. Thanks for posting such a thoughtful and intelligent analysis of the situation, and for providing such a great plan regarding how to help the little guy out, instead of attacking the bully, which might hurt those working with the company. What a great video!

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Thank you so much! Yeah I tried to be as chill about it as I can 😆 And try to turn it into a positive for the indie studio, like you said.

[@Toonaria]

@@PamWallsGameDesign - well done!

[@HunterMayer]

Don't let big meeple win. Any game that accepts the patronizing approval path should also be shamed/shunned. All or nothing. I loathe single word trademarks that are in the lexicon of the area they are to be used. E.g., gaming etc. having felt the bite of this movement directly it infuriates me to know end when it happens. Meeple is a staple and in the zeitgeist of the lexicons in use... This is crazy. Screw big meeple.

[@publicvoidmain]

The thing is... that word isn't in the German lexicon. Only a fraction of gamers use the term meeple in German. So, the German trademark is justified, and due to the trademark law needs to be defended.

[@DransPokeCorner]

Subbed! This was so interesting. I used to frequent a board game tavern that actually hosted small game creators certain nights so they could playtest their games with customers. Those creators were some of the most passionate and creative people i have met 🎉. Congrats on the video going viral too!

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

@@DransPokeCorner thanks so much! I love the sound of a “board game tavern” 🍻 I would playtest games there all the time! I’m heading to a playtest tonight but it’s at a regular board game store, not a tavern 😆 Thanks for being here!

[@pencilpauli9442]

This is behaviour worthy of Games Workshop. What I don't understand is, in what way could the game as initially proposed have harmed Harm and Glock?

[@khiarastales2091]

I'm sorry I'm lost at "Harm and Glock" 😭

[@pencilpauli9442]

@@khiarastales2091 I couldn't remember the spelling of the German company's name. Given that they were holding a metaphorical gun to the head of the small game designer team, I made up a pun. Sorry for the confusion.

[@khiarastales2091]

@@pencilpauli9442 No it's okay it's a clever pun XD

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

I agree, I don’t see how Meeple Inc took anything anyway from HiG, like I said in the video, this isn’t a zero sum game.

[@greiver179]

You need to actively protect your trademark or you risk losing it

[@zozowriter]

Great job reviewing this whole mess. I’m a freelance graphic designer in the US who sells merchandise to board gamers on Zazzle and Amazon. I’ve been using the Carcassonne meeple shape and term for years (opened my shop prior to the trademark application, so I was unaware). A few weeks ago, Zazzle denied one of my established designs that I was going to offer on a new product, stating that they didn’t have the rights to “meeple.” Since Zazzle sells internationally, there’s no way to apply HiG’s trademark strictly to the EU. I started the process of expunging the term from my Zazzle shop for fear they’d shut me down entirely. Some friends encouraged me to request permission from HiG, and I was granted it. If it was just the shape, I’d change it, but the term is too important to many of my designs, so I’m doing what I have to do to maintain my shop, but it’s been incredibly stressful.

[@tiberiusdw]

This is great "behind the curtain" material! I know how work-intensive it is, so I know you don't always have time to do it. But if and when you do, I'll watch it! 🙏

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Thank you so much! I really appreciate this and glad you recognize the effort that went into this video. Thank you! 🙏

[@fellowcitizen]

5:38 FYI I have a Nine Mens Morris set from the 70s with wooden pieces like this; and I'd be surprised if they were not used for decades prior elsewhere, too.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Support Maddie and Joe's game Tabletop Inc. (formerly Meeple Inc.) here: gamefound.com/en/projects/cogito-ergo-meeple/meeple-inc

[@jamesmorgan1967]

You might want to think about pinning this comment so more people will see it. Impressive video, btw.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

@@jamesmorgan1967 whoops, I thought it was pinned, thanks for letting me know!

[@VodShod]

isn't there something like a trademark, but marks something as public domain instead of owned by individuals or companies?

[@KyleTurpin42]

@@VodShod Sort of? In the software world, it'd be something like "copyleft" where it's *technically* a copyright but it's attached to a license that dictates the terms must be free to all. You just need a good guy to get there first.

[@rainbowunicode8352]

​@@PamWallsGameDesignit's still not pinned? At least I don't see it as such. Great reporting!!

[@Kanta82]

People have been making little dudes to play with for billions of years. Nobody, "Invented," them.

[@chrisblake4198]

I'm no lawyer, but my limited understanding of US trademark law tells me their application doesn't stand a chance.

[@EffyShaw]

I wondered why ads for Meeple Inc had died down, I saw things about it every day and then nothing at all. This explains it. Such an awesome looking game...and I'm gonna keep calling it Meeple Inc.

[@geekworthy7938]

You can get a trademark/patent/whatever approved, but if it comes down to it and it goes to court, the trademark/patent/whatever can be revoked/reversed/removed when it never should have been approved in the first place.

[@xChikyx]

someone should file a claim

[@RobinKestrel]

I appreciate the amount of research and work put into this explanation. It really shows. ❤

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Thank you so much, Robin! I really appreciate your support 🙏

[@staceofspades]

Excellent, excellent work, Pam. And congrats on your Dice Tower award nomination!

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Thank you so much! 🤗

[@BoardGameHoard]

This was awesome!! Great twist! This is such a wild weird super grody thing for a publisher to do.😤

[@TabletopGamesBlog]

I love the video, but as a slight addendum: the EU trademark was taken over into the UK, when the UK left the EU as part of Brexit. So, yes, there is a trademark in the UK that matches the EU trademark - which means it does NOT cover the toys & games category. So I would argue that they could still make their game, as they're not using "meeple" for one of the trademarked categories.

[@publicvoidmain]

Yes, they absolutely can. But they can't target German customers (e.g. by offering a German version and advertising shipping to Germany).

[@Chocomint_Queen]

A similar thing is ongoing in the fighting game space over the word "Yomi". Yomi is a commonly used bit of jargon, meaning to know your opponent and predict what they're going to do next (including them predicting that you'll predict what they'll do, and predicting what they'll do to counter their prediction of you). At some point, a guy made a fighting game card game called Yomi. Then he trademarked the word yomi. Now he's bullying indies to remove the word from their games or pay him licensing fees.

[@nymalous3428]

Thanks for making the community aware of this. I appreciate the time commitment especially from doing all of the research, and I commend the effort for getting primary sources. Keep up the good work.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Thanks so much! This one definitely took a lot more time than expected so thank you for saying that ☺️

[@ahhhhhh8493]

Theres a game store in my city called "Meeples Games" with the carcazone looking person as their logo, so I find this whole copywrite issue very interesting. I had always assumed maybe they had something worked out with the game studio but maybe they just don't at all lol

[@surlycanadian]

Petition to generically refer to all villains in tabletop games “Glück” from now on. Instead of the robber in Catan, it’s the Glück

[@kirassocalledlife]

I backed this project and I didn’t even know about all this. I am so excited for this game!

[@Elenaza92]

Oh hell nah! That company is looking really bad now. The marketing team needs to change.😢

[@les2pions]

Very well done video. You have clearly made your research thoroughly! Congrats and let's hope Meeple becomes a term free of use for the community.

[@scottsmartky]

Just how long did we have to say "Exhaust" instead of "Tap" thanks to the stupidity of Wizards of the Coast (I think before they were sold)? But this is what happens when everyone moves to a crowdfunding model instead of selling games for a reasonable cost and 1 billion percent less figures that are only there to "add value to the Kickstarter". But this is when the patent offices being understaffed and lots of clueless people in there. There have been a lot of egregious patents given in the US in the last 20 years so it wouldn't shock me if those two get it. And hopefully, this is the end of Hans though they'll just get gobbled up by someone else who will go sue everyone and make money that way. There are plenty of those scumbags running around in other industries.

[@jreylee]

Just thought I’d throw in a quote from the Mists over Carcassonne rulebook where Hans im Glück makes it look like they invented the term and its meaning without crediting Alison as the actual source: “Now let’s look at your playing pieces, which we will call meeple (i.e. ‘my people’).” (page 2)

[@gudkarmagames]

Sad & salty behavior from a company after their successful. what a shocker. Thank you for such a good video talking about this subject. Very disappointing, but its what always happens. People with power leverage it over those with less. Its disgusting.

[@Solw149]

It comes down to Hans im Gluck's choice whether they want to continue as a company that makes games or as a corporation that doesn't create any product but merely exists to hold on to patents (cough*Harmony Gold*cough).

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

That’s a good question… we will have to see! 🍿

[@ParlorPunch]

Wow, Pam that is some amazing content! When does PGNN (Pam's Gaming News Network) launch? Your presentation and Analysis is so professional and level-headed, not surprised but continually impressed. Thank you for putting all of that together 😮 in such a non-reationary fashion, trusting your audience to make up there own mind. 👏👏👏 As for Hans im Glück and Carcassonne, I remember a priest describing making a bad choice as like putting a drop of spit in a glass of otherwise cool refreshing water. Sure, it's still almost entirely cool and refreshing water but would you drink it? For me, until this is cleared up, Carcassonne has some spit on it. 🙁 Come on Hans im Glück, make us proud!!💪

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Thanks so much, John! I tried to not get too heated about it and definitely cut some things from the script 🤣 It was a good idea to write the script and film over several days to make sure I didn’t say anything I might regret. And so far, I don’t regret anything!!! The people need to know!! 😂 Thanks again, and that is a great analogy about the water 🙌

[@dirtywashedupsparkle]

Has shades of the word ugg which has been in common use in Australia long before someone in the US trademarked it, then had the gall to tell all Aussie retailers to cease and desist using the word ugg in their businesses - so the businesses had to fight to get it back.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Yes other people have mentioned the Ugg debacle as well! The audacity!! I’m compiling a list of other silly trademarks and this is definitely on there. Thanks for sharing 🙌

[@WhatsDaveUpTo]

I can't believe no other board game content creators are covering this. Not Dice Tower, not Brothers Murph, not BoardGameCo, etc. Their silence is absolutely damning. Evidence that most of these folks are in the pockets of Big Board Game.

[@inspired2game]

We covered it on our channel! Albeit we aren't a big channel like the ones you listed.

[@cheesecakenl1980]

Great video! I like it because not only does it shows you did research but you also voice your opinion and offer possible solutions.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Thanks so much for saying that! Yes, I tried to focus on how we could make the situation better rather than just complaining about it. Thanks for watching! 🙌

[@Portponky]

Interesting vid. I will never support, play, or recommend HiG games again, regardless of any future action they take. They are dead to me, permanently.

[@davidkoenig8592]

I haven't played board games in many years but always keep a toe in the water as I find them interesting. I clicked on your video because of the word "Meeple". I always assumed the term was created by a player of these games and it was kinda accepted by the gaming community. I swear these companies have to realize they are producing products for a grassroots type of community. Some of it can't be commodified into "dollars/euros/whatever". Anyway, great and informative video.

[@eepopgames2741]

Reminds me of how many TCGs rules feel clumsy because of WotC's control of the word "Tap".

[@kitsunin4690]

It goes a lot further than that. Soooo many games have cards you need to t...er, exhaust. To the point that the word got replaced and I say exhaust when I play MTG, because, well, rotating a card 90 degree to indicate it is exhausted, is generically called Exhaust now, thanks WotC.

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

Yes I thought about talking about the patenting on tapping, but didn’t want the video to get too long… it is equally as silly as the meeple debacle!

[@twosteps3018]

First time watching one of your videos. I really enjoy how thoroughly you research the issue. I agree, there is space at the (board gaming) table for everyone!

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

@@twosteps3018 thanks so much for watching! And I appreciate your comment about my research, I spent a lot of time researching so I’m glad you noticed. Yes board gaming should be all about inclusion and community. Thanks again for watching and the comment :)

[@Snippersly]

Free the Meeples!

[@PamWallsGameDesign]

📣 📣 📣

[@ironkitt]

13:52 lol Btw this channel looks like the best thing that happened to game design industry since Stonemaier games

[@josephbreakfield1651]

Just a note I hate it when people tell me to watch to the end it makes me way more likely to click off

[@ryanwayne4737]

This is very well done! I appreciate your insight and transparency on what you taught us.