Drawing the Line Between Natural and Not Natural

Students of Geoff’s Online Permaculture Design Course have question-and-answer sessions where Geoff fields a number of questions every week and answers them via videos. This question was pulled from the 2021 collection. Check out Geoff’s free Masterclass for an in-depth dive into all things permaculture www.discoverpermaculture.com
Question
Where does permaculture theory draw the line between natural and non-natural? From my perspective, everything is natural because everything comes from nature.
Key Takeaways
We haven’t created anything, just assembled them in certain orders. While we technically aren’t creating materials out of things that aren’t in the natural world, we can assemble them in ways that are harmful to the natural system. We can isolate components to make powerful toxins or assemble different types of materials such that they don’t biodegrade.
So, whatever we use we want it to fit into the natural system, being sure that any surpluses we generate can just be fed back into the betterment of the system itself. We want something that can be re-consumed by the farm. All of our resources can come from living resources, and we want to work towards that. It doesn’t happen right away, but it’s what we can strive for.
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About Geoff:
Geoff is a world-renowned permaculture consultant, designer, and teacher that has established demonstration sites that function as education centers in all the world's major climates. Geoff has dedicated his life to spreading permaculture design across the globe and inspiring people to take care of the earth, each other, and to return the surplus.
About Permaculture:
Permaculture integrates land, resources, people and the environment through mutually beneficial synergies - imitating the no waste, closed loop systems seen in diverse natural systems. Permaculture applies holistic solutions that are applicable in rural and urban contexts and at any scale. It is a multidisciplinary toolbox including agriculture, water harvesting and hydrology, energy, natural building, forestry, waste management, animal systems, aquaculture, appropriate technology, economics and community development.
#permaculture #permaculturedesign #whatispermaculture

[@rebeccajosteelman563]

I'd say that is a highly intelligent, logical and spiritually perfect answer.

[@paulmcwhorter]

"Assemble Things in Crazy Order" . . . that pretty much sums up the whole world right now. Always blessed by your videos.

[@lindacgrace2973]

I always think of "sustainability" as two teeter-totters. the first teeter-totter is "highly engineered and manufactured with high embodied energy" vs "easily harvested and simply prepared with very low manufacturing impact and low embodied energy. One can have substances with low embodied energy that are highly toxic and persistent in the environment. For instance, lead will melt out of it's ore at kitchen stove temperatures and has very low embodied energy. But it is quite toxic and persists for centuries. the second teeter-totter (or scale) is toxicity. Toxicity is determined first by how potent the toxin is (tiny amounts cause wide-spread devastation) and also how many species it impacts (even moderate toxicity escalates when the substance is toxic to a wide variety of species) and toxicity also increases with environmental persistence. So, one can also think of it as a quadrant chart. The vertical axis is manufactured versus harvested; the horizontal axis is highly toxic to beneficial. Thus the lower left hand corner is highly manufactured AND highly toxic (glyphosate); above it in the upper left hand corner is low embodied energy but still toxic (lead); the lower right hand corner is high embodied energy but non-toxic (highly engineered construction lumber); and the upper right hand corner is the best of all worlds, virtually no embodied energy and beneficial (such as fruit or bamboo). Don't know if my classification system is useful, but that's how I keep it organised in my head.

[@bandhuji8543]

to add on to the great explanation, “non-natural” is very much a point of view, and we need to look at our goal of establishing systems that support life long term with no outside inputs. using say, fish emulsion, at a site in nevada, could be called non-natural. but it can also help speed a farm to the self sustained goal we’re aiming to achieve

[@ryanlove8242]

Thank you for the wisdom Geoff! I value your insight and for taking the time to post content and share permaculture knowledge with people like me who can't afford to take the PDC but really want to learn permaculture. What a great way to start off my birthday. You're the greatest! Keep up the good work and valuable content! The world needs permaculture now more than ever!

[@NashvilleMonkey1000]

That's a very important point, it reminds me of what Woo said once in your presence, that if we trade on abundance instead of on scarcity, we would shift to natural tendencies of building the world instead of chipping away at it~

[@Ruby-K]

Working with the patterns we have (natural) instead of against the patterns (unnatural). Even if something is 'unatural', it can be brought back, coalesced into line with a general pattern to bring maximum productivity with minimal effort, e.g. recycling, composting, redirecting water, swaling, seed bombing, planting in patterns etc... basically back to food forest and abundance where we just thrive off of the excess with the least disruption to a self-sufficient system.

[@rizeandshine4473]

Could not have said it better myself! BRILLIANT, simple, succinct explanation!

[@srinivasaraom393]

Wonderful clarification, thankyou Jeoff.

[@mojavebohemian814]

Thank you very much. I watch your videos over and over.

[@Daniel-mq3qb]

That's a great answer. I also see the tension between wild and cultivated. The wild inhibits all life and cultivation is a way of making it accessible. Cultivation should embrace and serve life in the best way it can. There is still too much mystery to the wild to understand it fully. It's arrogant to reorder things as we were superior to those mysteries.

[@B30pt87]

Eloquently put. Thank you!

[@007hansen]

Anyone else yelling at the screen, "Geoff say: this is the wae" ???

[@pleasestoptheride]

Geoff, it is scary how the word ‘natural’ is being thrown around these days. Synthetic Biology, rewriting nature to suit the goals of mad scientists and their funders, is set to remake the world and what is created is said to be ‘natural’, ‘pure’, and ‘gmo-free’ even though it is produced by an engineered tiny life. I have done many videos on this and I provide all of the source material for what I show. Please consider what I have presented in videos like ‘What Is Natural?’, ‘The New Normal Of Agriculture?’, ‘This Is What Sustainably Produced Looks Like’, and, maybe most important, ‘Rise of the Bioeconomy’. They are selling good people on their plan to redesign all life on the planet by telling them it is ‘Regenerative’, 'Sustainable', and ‘Natural’. The words they use are all legally definable and they don’t mean what you might think. Please, help me warn people.

[@lovecatspiracy]

Subscribed!

[@PaleGhost69]

My simple definition is "things that aren't natural don't go away on their own"

[@srantoniomatos]

Nothing go away on its own. All kind of living beings, minerals, water, sun, and movemment of all those are needed to make anything (and everything) "to go"...or compost...its just a time diference, but eventually everything goes...compost

[@mra4955]

Why does something have to 'go away', exactly and what do you mean by this? And according to what/who's timescale? This isn't a good metric to help define 'natural' and 'non-natural' at all.

[@PaleGhost69]

@@mra4955 entropy.

[@mra4955]

@@PaleGhost69 ?

[@PaleGhost69]

@@mra4955 If that went over your head, you're well outside your weight class. Have a good night.

[@panmicrotones]

I think perhaps non-artificial would be a better word to use than natural.

[@mainerockflour3462]

Beautiful explanation

[@bonniepoole1095]

If it never rots, don't use it.

[@reesekolcow6136]

This is the destination, but we’re all getting really whacky disruptions volcanoes, tsunamis, hail, snow, flooding- how can we provide enough-and get it to the masses for today?

[@kebertxela941]

You can't,this is not quick solution,it takes long term investment but pays off more in the future.

[@rizeandshine4473]

The man-made 'system' is inefficient, wasteful and toxic. Earth is abundant, regenerative and healing. Remove the 'system' by instead collaborating with Earth in nature's language, and there will always be abundance.

[@lovecatspiracy]

Trying to close that loop here on my .1 acre

[@BlakesNaturelife]

Well said 🌱🌱🌱

[@flatsville1]

I use manufactued plastic in my veg garden and in establishing permaculture beds. Primarily scrap landscape fabric & tarp to conserve water usage & terminate covercrops, rhisome grass, etc... I get used pro-line product from hardscape installers who are tearing out jobs. I believe in being as responsible & minimalist about it as possible. I sew & patch, patch & sew. I advise against the following "non-natural" product use in the name of "permaculture." I recently came across a Canadian self-styled "legacy" permaculturalist who advised against using various plastcs in the garden, but built a wetland/waterfall/pod filled with EDPM liner & poly prop water blocks/boxes. To justify it, he says its the beating heart of his permaculture eco-system & plans to raise koi & tilapia...in the open air Canadian winter? The fish will die as the pond isn't deep enough to allow koi to overwinter 4-5 ft depth down (blocked by water boxes topped with tons of rock) & tilapia death occurs in water temps below 50F/10C. (Apparenty he didn't put in a costly energy sucking water heating system to keep the fish from freezing solid in the Canadian winter.) He also claimed it was was water storage for climate change. Open air water storage exposed to sun & wind evaporation & freezing? That doesn't sound like a winning water storage plan to me. He also says his system will last nearly forever because it is UV protected & will sink into the ground (implying it will not create a waste issue...a tangle of EPDM liner & poly prop water boxes. That's some "legacy" to leave behind.) And I want to see that "nearly forever" warranty on materials & installation. Was the contractor stupid enough to put that in writing? All it takes is one good root puncture from a tree/shrub or serious damage from a burrowing animal to that liner from underneath or the side below the water line to prove otherwise. You then get to move tons of water boxes & rocks to find the leak & patch. That service call will be $$$. A tiny pinhole will leak 5 gals in 24 hrs. The least we can all do is think it through the good intentions v practical application and the durability v bitter waste end of what we are doing/using.

[@ricos1497]

What you recommend as a natural pond liner? Or do you just fill with small stones and then water and plants? A genuine question, I have no idea. I'm guessing depth for fish would have be 10ft, or more?

[@flatsville1]

@@ricos1497 The guy clearly didn't do his homework regarding raising fish out of doors in the Canadian winter in a home sized pond feature. I suspect that permaculture/eco-fish thing was a dodge to jusify a decorative water feature. Bentonite clay makes a good pond sealer. All pond liners are not created equal. Firestone makes an excellent EPDM liner. The heavy duty geotextiles are making a debut for small installations. Both are pricey. Bear in mind most pond liners are not properly installed even by so-called professionals. Good old fashioned concrete will last decades & decades if poured right. www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/194602/gardening/pond_liners_7_reasons_why_i_dont_use_them.html And we can argue all day long re: manufacturing burden v waste legacy burden.

[@ricos1497]

@@flatsville1 thanks! Very interesting. Now all I have to do is get my father in law to agree to me digging a pond on his farm!

[@flatsville1]

@@ricos1497 I wish you luck. Pond/lake management is frought with issues/problems and can be pricey depending on intended usage. You can't do enough homework it seems. After spending $20-40k on his wetland/waterfall/pond installation that thing will never produce the "permaculture" features he's claimed it will. Of course building that morass of plastic right off the deck next to his house was the real tell.

[@n.atherton9113]

What about trying to practice permaculture next to a traditional agriculture farm that uses pesticides, etc? Can the system survive?

[@PaleGhost69]

Look into edible acres. They have a permie next to an orchard that sprays. He uses a tree and brush line plus a system that makes their water run through several organic matter filter ponds before it can flow through his land.

[@n.atherton9113]

@@PaleGhost69 thanks I follow Sean's work but didn't realise his neighbour sprayed. Will dig deeper in the archives

[@PaleGhost69]

@@n.atherton9113 Pond Management - Diverting and filtering surface water 2:34

[@srantoniomatos]

You can use pesticides and fungicides and herbicides in a permaculture site (there are no rulers or Police to check and punish anybody...). Anyway, its your choice, you can use both homemade and industry made. The plants themselfs produce their own pesticides and fungicides (most of them toxic to humans, althou most of them need extra dosis to be harmful to us) so they can protect themselfs from pests etc. The amount of pesticides and fungicides you absorv by eating is mostly from the tissues of the plants, are the "natural" pesticides...even if you had sprayed, after sometime and after watering and washing, the residues are minimal. Its like humans (humans are natural...) We have capacity to produce inner medicines and protective layers to protect and heal, and , sometimes, use external doses to help some problems... If you live next to a big orchards that sprays insecticides/ fungicides in foliage (spray to the air) part of it go to everysite nearby, depending on wind, a lot... Usually it wont harm the plants, but you may not want it... Herbicides, usually, are directed to the ground, and are absorved by plants, water and the soil it self. Glyphosate (the most common) wont reach far, its eaten by soil, dont afect neigbors...

[@n.atherton9113]

@@srantoniomatos the fields around us are non- organic maize and the farmer sprays a few times per year. I've started a hedge that hopefully will grow high enough to stop the wind blowing the chemicals on you our land

[@fantashio]

Cool, keep it up, yo :D

[@stevenreinke9924]

Hi

[@erwinwinarno]

💛💛💛💚💚💚

[@DrewDubious]

oh jeffrey...

[@patiopermaculture3529]

Ok but what about the supernatural?