Sir Roger Penrose & Stuart Hameroff: Collapsing a theory of quantum consciousness? Part 2 (248)

Part two of our live conversation with Nobel Prize Winner and renowned mathematical physicist Sir Roger Penrose and anesthesiologist Dr. Stuart Hameroff.
Watch Part 1: Sir Roger Penrose & Stuart Hameroff: What is Consciousness?
• Sir Roger Penrose & St...
00:00 Intro
01:00 How does the Everett 'Many Worlds' play into consciousness?
30:00 Artificial intelligence and consciousness
33:00 Emperor's New Mind
39:00 Can consciousness exist in 2 dimensions of space plus one of time?
42:00 Falsifying ORCH OR
45:00 Roger's thoughts on the Simulation Hypothesis and quantum computers
47:00 Polyominos and non-computability
50:00 What is consciousness really? Is it just what a computer can do?
51:00 Career advice for students and well-wishers
52:00 How complex is the brain? Eighteen orders
54:00 Clarke's Laws: “When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, they are almost certainly right. When they state that something is impossible, they are very probably wrong”. What have you changed your mind on?
56:00 Roger's thoughts on Aliens in the previous 'aeon' and their ability to communicate via neutrinos or gravitational waves
1:02:00 Stuart on alien techno-signatures and panspermia
1:04:00 An afterlife?
1:05:00 Why is Roger an agnostic?
1:07:00. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”
1:09:00 Advice to go into the impossible?
Collapsing a leading theory for the quantum origin of consciousness phys.org/news/2022-06-collaps...
Sir Roger Penrose and Dr. Stuart Hameroff have tackled one of the most vexing problems in science -- how does consciousness work? Their theories of consciousness were selected by the Templeton Foundation for study. We will discuss Is the brain a sophisticated computer or an intuitive thinking device? Following on from their conference in Tucson which pitted Integrated Information Theory (IIT) against Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch-OR), Sir Roger Penrose OM and Stuart Hameroff discuss the experiments that might explain human consciousness and objections to them from FQXI and others.
Sir Roger Penrose describe examples of ‘non-computability’ in human consciousness, thoughts and actions such as the way we evaluate particular chess positions which cast doubt on ‘Turing’ computation as a complete explanation of brain function. As a source of non-computability, Roger discuss his ‘objective reduction’ (‘OR’) self-collapse of the quantum wavefunction which is a potential resolution for the ‘measurement problem’ in quantum mechanics, and a mechanism for non-computable physics.
Dr. Stuart Hameroff reviews neuronal and biophysical aspects of Orch OR, in which ‘orchestrated’ quantum vibrations occur among entangled brain microtubules and evolve toward Orch OR threshold and consciousness. The nature, feasibility, decoherence times and evidence for quantum vibrations in microtubules, their role and correlation with consciousness, effects upon them of anesthetic gases and psychedelic drug molecules will be discussed, along with Orch OR criticisms and predictions of microtubule quantum vibrations as therapeutic targets for mental and cognitive disorders.
Sir Roger Penrose OM FRS, Emeritus Professor at the Mathematical Institute of the University of Oxford, Emeritus Fellow at Wadham College, and winner of the Wolf Prize in Physics, has made profound contributions across a broad range of scientific disciplines. His work encompasses geometry, black hole singularities, the unification of quantum mechanics and gravity, the structure of space-time, and the origin of our Universe. His geometric creations inspired the works of Escher, and the Penrose steps have been featured in several movies. In 1989 Penrose wrote The Emperor’s New Mind which challenged the premise that consciousness is computation and proposes we need new physics to understand it.
Biography: Stuart Hameroff MD is an anesthesiologist at the University of Arizona in Tucson. In the mid 1990s Hameroff teamed with famed British physicist Sir Roger Penrose to develop a quantum theory of consciousness (‘orchestrated objective reduction’, ‘Orch OR’) based on microtubule quantum computing. Highly controversial and harshly criticized, Orch OR is now supported by evidence, e.g. that anesthetics act in quantum channels in microtubules, and that microtubules have multi-scalar resonances, e.g. in megahertz. He’s appeared in the film ‘WhattheBleep?’ and numerous TV shows on BBC, PBS, Discovery, OWN and History Channel.
Sir Roger Penrose: • Nobel Prize in Physics...
Sabine Hossenfelder: • Sabine Hossenfelder: T...
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[@DrBrianKeating]

Watch Part 1: Sir Roger Penrose & Stuart Hameroff: What is Consciousness? kzbin.info/www/bejne/epK7nKyuib91a5o and *Please join my mailing list; click here 👉 **briankeating.com/list* 📝

[@jimmyjasi-anti-descartes7088]

What do you think Profesor about my proposition how to better classify ontological positions? I mean I know that you're a Cosmologist primary and that as a "practicing agnostic" You have pro-Dualist leanings.(I want to offend NO One and my position is just as isolated as geopolitically Cold War Albania was haha ). But I think that todays Theories simply cannot be encapsulated by philosophical spectrum formed 300 years ago when we barely knew Newton Laws (both Descartes and George Berkeley were Newtons contemporaries) not to mention QM, EPR, Black Hole Information Paradox and Quantum Biology in Bird senses and Brains

[@jimmyjasi-anti-descartes7088]

If someone is a Reductionist Materialist then he allows for Simulation Hypothesis and is no longer Materialist. So Orch OR is more Materialistic and far better confirmed than conventional "Reductionism". And needless to say if you are a Dualist you are anti-physicalist! It's time to overthrow Descartes false dichotomy and I don't mean "holism" (whatever it means) I think that the best way to classify ontological positions would be by adopting modified Michael Shermer Consciousness Principle groping. Meaning -: It's not Materialism, Dualism and Idealism but rather. It's Weak Consciousness Principle (that Consciousness is Fundamental and intrinsic to the Universe but ISN'T the only thing that exist) Strong Consciousness is a cluster of positions claiming that Consciousness either causes the Cosmos or is beyond Physics. Therefore both Idealists and all variants of Dualism fall into Strong Consciousness Principle And Orch OR IS Weak Consciousness Principle. I think that it's far better and Just division line than what Descartes and contemporaries though (Descartes had no idea what QM or EPR is and his view that either there's a immortal soul or that everything life included is purely mechanistic is just ridiculous)! And what sucks so much! is that even people who want to "overthrow Descartes"(both Idealists and Eliminationist Materialists) are subscribing to being either left or right from his division line. Stuart Hameroff Einstein of Consciousness as He is sadly can't discribe his Theory in the good philosophical language, but unless you claim existence of "Quantum personal Soul" (which Sir Roger Penrose reject)! Orch OR should not be classified as "Dualist" I mean would you call cardiologist who investigates how heart works and claims that mutations in mitochondrial DNA matter as much as heart viewed from purely anatomical perspective a "Dualistic" proposition? Sounds rather ridiculous such critique!

[@jimmyjasi-anti-descartes7088]

Sorry

[@jimmyjasi-]

Hameroffs Revolution that began last year will be at least as important as genomic revolution and eventually far surpassing IT revolution! Because I have a feeling that if we want to Evolve what we need is neither "Neuralink"(as it totally misses the point what brain is) nor Galtonian Genetics (advocated in modern times by people like Robert Plomin or "Bell Curve" author Charles Murray) but rather we need to understand what consciousness is (ie. what Collapse of Wave Function is)2 what is unique about tubulin and how it's functions are integrated with the rest of brain functions (great work with Alzheimer from Jack Tuszyński)! And once we will understand how microtubules work. We may instead of disentangle thousands of polygenic inheritance in brain, It may be much cheaper to enhance intelligence of future generations by Engeneering genes that will in a coming decade be identified and studied to give microtubules certain characteristics!

[@robbytucker6496]

we are all lucky 2 have Sir Roger Penrose & Dr Stuart Hameroff working on this problem for us an for how long an hard they have worked on it. It is always amazing to hear them talk on this topic. thank you for bringing them on the show sir. thank u Dr Brian Keating

[@DrBrianKeating]

My pleasure Have a great weekend!

[@jimmyjasi-anti-descartes7088]

Witty title given that "Collapsing" Orch OR means confirming it. And proving Orch OR means "Collapsing Quantum Theory of Consciousness" Haha Why no one speaks about how IIT collapsed beyond repair? I mean these Daniel Bor experiments in which φ(Integrated supposedly Information) either goes up or stays the same under anesthesia and simple smartphones have large φ. As Sabine Hossenfelder also describe in her wonderfull book

[@jimmyjasi-anti-descartes7088]

Ψ triumphant over φ!

[@spacecadett]

You guys are my hero’s. I can’t believe I’m the only one here

[@DrBrianKeating]

Lol. Thanks

[@enterprisesoftwarearchitect]

We were working!!

[@JamesCairney]

Despite the technical difficulties, this was rather good.

[@derekboyt3383]

I would like to have heard more from SH. He showed great patience and understanding within this interview / dialogue.

[@AK-iy9nz]

I have been following Sir Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff and their ORCH OR theory for quite some time now. Thank you so much for this interview. I'm so intrigued by their approach and I hope the experiments will support their idea of consciousness.

[@jackd42o]

Loved this. I need to listen again. Sir Penrose is as sharp as a tack, and your passion shines in this, Dr Keating!

[@DrBrianKeating]

Thanks so much! *What was your favorite takeaway from this conversation?* _Please join my mailing list to get _*_FREE_*_ notes & resources from this show! Click_ 👉 briankeating.com/mailing_list.php

[@Self-Duality]

Incredible conversation. Thank you!!! 😌💭

[@DrBrianKeating]

Thanks I enjoyed it too

[@LS-qu7yc]

@Isaac Bernabe Duarte Alvarenga a lot would have to change for them to speak- their vocal chord flaps would have to be erased somehow and there is a special nerve that needs an opening in the skull to reach the tongue to make word sounds. It would be a big structural change. Maybe they could write though

[@findfafnir4280]

Each of you are an inspiration. Thank you.

[@shivamkumar-dw2mg]

I am living for this

[@softseagreens]

Happy birthday to the wonderful and astonishing Sir Roger - and thank you so much for this talk!

[@DrBrianKeating]

Thank you kindly

[@ejhong]

We are so blessed to have Roger Penrose.

[@DrBrianKeating]

Thanks

[@RWin-fp5jn]

Just wow! This podcast has it all. Easily the best ever. A new and exiting emerging field of science, bringing us closer to understanding who and what we are and maybe eventually even who or what created us. Having the top 2 minds in the world interacting naturally and in all openness and bewilderedness is also due to Brian's unique ability to combine his phenomenal background in physics with his inclination to let others shine, not trying to push his own views. You see the respect and joy in Hameroff's and Penrose' eyes to finally be able communicate the essentials without having to take into account the normal limitations of the average podcast host. As for the biology aspects. It is just stunning how incredible complex our brain and body are. I can't imagine this architecture is locked up in merely the DNA or superseding gene structure of a growing embryo. To construct such a miracle I think would take a two-step approach where nature would establish a local 'hardware platform' able to 'download' the rest of the needed information to complete and next upload experiences to benefit the human collective in return. As such I am completely with Hameroff's notion that quantum coherence may be instrumental to enable quantum entanglement which in turn suggest a distributed medium to store individual consciousness or memory's transcending past/pro biological death. As such, I would wonder if Hameroff's research on microtubules also extends to specifically the pineal gland in combination with the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN). The pineal gland being the first gland (DMT associated) to form inside the embryo and the SCN forming the first autonomous inner clock (frequency, thus spacetime embedding) appear crucial platforms pivoting from the quantum world to the macro world from where to built further. Again just awesome stuff and fantastic energy. Thank you all 3 !

[@jimmyjasi-anti-descartes7088]

Do you know what the craziest fun fact is? Stanisław Lem wrote in 1984 book called "Golem XIV" about Superinteligent Computer that is deposing intelectually humanity... this fictitious "Golem" gives two lectures to human audience about Evolution in the "Selfish gene matter" and then about Astrophysics where... He talks about Hawking-Penrose Theorem (then a novelty)... And what is crazy is that just five years later Sir Roger Penrose wrote "The Emperor's New Mind" where He argues that computers cannot think Ah!

[@jimmyjasi-anti-descartes7088]

I would really no trouble that people with "racists" or "anthropocentric" mentality have with some system very different (silicone, or Bosse Einstein Condensate whatever) becoming conscious and even superior to Homo sapiens I grew up in Poland where Stanisław Lem Reigns since 1960s... Trouble is that it leads to Simulation Hypothesis which I reject as Idealistic/Solipsistic! So it's only my humble hope that Penrose and Hameroff will triumph and prove it impossible. I really can't see why anyone believes Daniel Dennet who's self refuting by his poorly constructed theory that is "so materialistic" that allows for Nick Bostrom Simulation (the same is true about others Theories for Consciousness other than Orch Or)

[@tcarr349]

This was great. I’m going to have to watch this again.

[@DrBrianKeating]

Thanks buddy

[@leeFbeatz]

Thank you for the education 🙏 much love and respect always OGs

[@DrBrianKeating]

Thanks buddy

[@andyoates8392]

The craft of understanding consciousness in its most basic form seems complex beyond comprehension.

[@bernardofitzpatrick5403]

Wow … covered so much territory regarding consciousness and even aliens. Love Sir Roger and Stuart. So pleased Bernardo Kastrup will be on soon. Also great to hear Sabine will also be on. 👍👏💥

[@DrBrianKeating]

Thanks tune in. Hit the 🔔. And share

[@bernardofitzpatrick5403]

@@DrBrianKeating have done so 😀👍

[@DrBrianKeating]

Thanks buddy

[@No-thing-ness]

Thanks so much for doing these great pod casts Dr Keating

[@DrBrianKeating]

My pleasure please share with your friends

[@oscarluisvermat7935]

The general anesthesia affects the interface between the mind and the brain. That's what the microtubules and the quantum effect may be involved. Interface between the mind and the CNS (brain). The quantum effect just deals with the correlates.

[@tnator3542]

Thank you, Dr. Keating for having such a great interview with the legendary Sir Roger Penrose and Dr. Stewart Hameroff. I don't get most of what's discussed here, but I have simple gazillion-dollar questions that have never surfaced in any of the [quantum] consciousness discussions (that I've viewed, so far), which I hope some photons can be shed over. 1. Is Consciousness equal Soul? 2. Can a soul exist independently of the biological bound? 3. If yes to 2., in what dimensional system, 4th only, or 4th up, or 4D with minute occupancy of the 3D world? 4. If no to 2., how do you assess the experience that someone has without any prior knowledge of a person fitting the description having lived and died in the place prior to their occupancy? I'd like to add that if the [rather expected] answer to 2. is 'I don't know, and nobody does, yet.', then what's your leaning - toward a yes or a no?

[@morphixnm]

It seems to me that this quantum consciousness hypothesis attributes the origin of consciousness to quantum level changes, but one should resist confusing correlation with causation. For that reason this hypothesis, which I am truly appreciating, may succeed in moving the good old hard problem of consciousness down to the quantum level without resolving it. That would of course be real progress but would leave open questions of whether consciousness is of the physical world, the physical world is of consciousness, or some other clever but currently unimaginable arrangement. Great conversation!

[@michaelsage6649]

What an amazing interview! Gratitude

[@derekboyt3383]

Our art should be our swagger. It demonstrates both the beauty and history of our species. Art can be many things that are creative.

[@BillyMcBride]

I am very much refreshed to listen in on your intelligent conversations. Thank you, all.

[@BillyMcBride]

Whoa, I am having a deja vu experience when the discussion turned to space dust.

[@BillyMcBride]

I wonder if eating space dust is irrational?

[@EnviroDouglas]

Enjoying the show, Brian. Sir Roger is a legend!

[@mikejurney9102]

If consciousness operates by quantum mechanical processes, does that mean that thoughts exist in the virtual world of wave functions? Thoughts seem to be virtual in the sense that they are simulations of various possibilities. But all these thoughts/scenarios/possibilities all seem to conflate and interfere with each other until they eventually produce intentions to act. So is the mind a wave function that gets objectively reduced to results in the form of beliefs and intentions, etc?

[@robbie_]

Well you have to go down a bit of a panpsychist rabbit hole if you want to even try to make sense of it. I would separate out consciousness (meditate, clear your mind completely and just "be") from thought, which I suppose would be like excitations of a field. The field is the background and thoughts are ripples and waves upon it. I will be absolutely destroyed by an actual physicist for using language like this of course!

[@dexter9823]

I am probably the least educated person watching this video but nonetheless I am extremely interested in these difficult confusing topics by the way I work in a pizzeria hahaha

[@DrBrianKeating]

Delicious

[@dexter9823]

😂 please notify me when they need participants for the Psychedelic experiment.

[@DrBrianKeating]

Lol. You’re on the waiting list. Right behind Lucy

[@jimmyjasi-anti-descartes7088]

@@DrBrianKeating Have a Nice Weekend Profesor Keating! Love you, your Inteligent Question and your Channel! And Chag Sameach

[@OldFartGrows]

I'm an armchair physicist 4 over 3 decades now. I'm still stupid.

[@arldoran]

I saw the link 20 secs ago, clicked on it, already liked it during the advertisement, now I can watch it. :) (edit: it seems there is a part 1... BRB in 30 mins).

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

Penrose wondering how a nuclear bombing blowing up would affect individual consciousness was well-played!! Most consciousness people never even consider that possibility.

[@StarfireIgns]

Amazing from all of us in India..hope we get a chance to do this on our podcast !!!

[@gio.k291]

It makes sense . Great interview

[@DrBrianKeating]

Thanks so much! *What was your favorite takeaway from this conversation?* _Please join my mailing list to get _*_FREE_*_ notes & resources from this show! Click_ 👉 briankeating.com/mailing_list.php

[@TonydeKaro]

Amazing! Cheers from Germany

[@charleswood2182]

Thanks a lot.

[@DrBrianKeating]

My pleasure

[@BreauxSegreto]

Thanks gentlemen 🙏

[@DrBrianKeating]

You’re welcome please share

[@Suggsonbass]

48:00-49:00 This is a key point IMHO

[@Dyslexic-Artist-Theory-on-Time]

One way to think of quantum physics is that the wave particle duality of light and matter in the form of electrons is forming a blank canvas for us (atoms) to interact with; we have waves over a period of time and particles as an uncertain future unfolds. The mathematics of quantum mechanics represents the physics of time with classical physics represents processes over a ‘period of time’ as in Newton's differential equations. In this theory the mathematics of quantum mechanics represents geometry, the Planck Constant ħ=h/2π is linked to 2π circular geometry representing a two dimensional aspect of 4π spherical three-dimensional geometry. We have to square the wave function Ψ² representing the radius being squared r² because the process is relative to the two-dimensional spherical 4π surface. We then see 4π in Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle ∆×∆pᵪ≥h/4π representing our probabilistic temporal three dimensions life. The charge of the electron e² and the speed of light c² are both squared for the same geometrical reason. We have this concept because the electromagnetic force forms a continuous exchange of energy forming what we experience as time. The spontaneous absorption and emission of light photon ∆E=hf energy is forming potential photon energy into the kinetic energy of electrons. Kinetic Eₖ=½mv² energy is the energy of what is actually happening. An uncertain probabilistic future is continuously coming into existence with the exchange of photon energy.

[@gerarddrareg9818]

I basically think that gravity(is not really what we think it is) has something to do with trapping consciousness ( I believe consciousness is fundamental, the empty space everywhere) into Matter. Every point in space and in time is at a different location because of movement, so therefore, your body has a part of consciousness trapped inside it and therefore you experience this only at this point and time in space.

[@erawanpencil]

@49:00 He clarifies that OrchOR only relates to the 'understanding' part of consciousness, he doesn't necessarily dismiss the idea that there are computational parts of consciousness (e.g. governed by binary neuronal firing, etc.). A lot of critics of his theory should remember this; Roger and Stu are not saying that 'all' of consciousness is existing 'down there' on microtubules, in fact it could be that the majority of the characteristics we perceive as consciousness could be computational and governed by something like Integrated Information Theory.

[@JustinHedge]

Just some constructive thoughts with no disrespect intended. I notice you're quite regularly distracted during some of these conversations with dealing with your live stream production, etc. I understand the necessity to focus here, but it unfortunately takes away from your focused engagement of the guests at times. I noticed a stark difference in your conversation with Lex Friedman for instance when you were a guest, and I was really impressed by your focused intellectual engagement without said distractions. Perhaps an assistant or something in the future could take a load off your needs to handle multiple hats during stream? Again just a personal thought, love your guests and format. Cheers!

[@davidwilkie9551]

Sir Rodger the Oxford Rebel, has a deeply satisfying sound to it. The fitting of Euler's e-Pi-i sync-duration infinitesimal to Newtonian Fluxion-Integral Temporal superposition tuning-probability is the wave-packaging collapse by quantization = Modulation => resonance bonding cause-effect holography Mechanism, long associated with mind-memory and consciousness.. Quantum Field Theory Logic is all-ways everywhere-when all-at-once = superposition, e-Pi-i sync-duration i-reflection containment state zero-infinity difference =Absolute Zero Kelvin Singularity-point Entanglement. The Reciproction-recirculation reference-framing pure-math relative-timing modulated AM-FM modulo bubble-mode ratio-rates of timing log-antilog time spacing-duration timing, are naturally reiterative Condensates here-now-forever in eternal sync-duration pulse-evolution. Bio-logical re-evolution is obviously the cause-effect candidate for Dr Hameroff's observable physical manifestation of comprehensible phenomena. Misperception of the macro-micro structural foundations derived from Euler's Observable Eternity-now e-Pi-i sync-duration resonances in a virtual projection-drawing Interval and temporal relative-timing synthesis pure-math Interval is this Theoretically complicated and messy sum-of-all-histories statement of Math-Phys-Chem and Geometry Actuality. Eg the "true probabilistic temporal superposition Relativity" that self-defines reality as the ONE-Infinity bio-logical re-evolution Clockwork Universe is composed by assembly of 0-1-2-ness log-antilog dominance sequences GD&P line-of-sight superposition density-intensity real-numberness pixels inside-outside holographic time-timing wave-packaging information In-form-ation timing modulation interference coordination substantiation. This particular POV is inescapable after some practical experience in Intuitive design such as Sir Rodger Penrose has applied to the Escher Diagrams and extended to e-Pi-i patterning of Primes and Cofactors coordination-positioning in self-defining Number Theory Condensates. In the discovery process of Actual-Artificial Intelligence, Sciencing Re-search practices involve contra-diction, ie debate AND Reductionist Observation to fundamental elemental Principle, which is Newton's Fluxion, Physicists Planck Dimensions phenomena and Euler's e-Pi-i at the Observational limit 1-0-infinity instantaneous superposition => possible probabilistic correlations range.

[@someguyfromafrica5158]

Reality works like a consensus algorithm, similar to the blockchain, where all consciousnesses's decide which reality to join. The "next block mined" is akin to the next moment in time and is the "collapse". Any node/consciousness can veer off onto a different "fork" but always re-joins the longest (oldest) chain. This explains why the people you interact with don't lose their consciousness due to veering off into a different world, and everyone just has one consciousness, and are all roughly speaking present in the same world. Eventually the only reality is the one arrived at by consensus although there can be ongoing uncertainties as the consensus evolves.

[@InterfaceGuhy]

this sums up my thoughts exactly!!! Wow. very deep stuff here. Wolfram, Bach, and Penrose integrated with Plato, Plotinus, and Whitehead explained in the lingo of the cutting edge of networking, computing, and cybersecurity...

[@theuniques1199]

The Universe(eternal space) can't be an object of its own knowledge ( to know itself) therefore the Universe projects an image of itself as human consciousness until human consciousness first believes it destroys its image of itself as the Universe which means the Universe will project the same exact image of itself again until it first believes to destroy its image of itself again as human consciousness, I always have and I always will rewrite this same exact comment again verbatim, reproduction is eternity as eternity is reproduction.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

What happens to microtubules when anesthesia applied that blocks collapse / measurement of quantum wave function for consciousness?

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

What causes collapse of quantum wave function in ORCH OR? And once wave function collapses, how does consciousness develop in physical reality?

[@joukosalminen1549]

Memory is needed before. Memory is written at dimers hinge when dynein walks against spin wave. Dynein bends hinge and orbitals overlaps. These nonbonding (degenerate) orbitals are in two separate trp indole group. Normally their e spin is same. But if spin wave happens in same time when bend, borns (rare) singlet (unbound singlet see wiki). Mecanism is same in magic angle of graphene. Memory looks like this , no singlet ; singlet: ,,,,;,,;,,,,,;,,,;,,,,,,,;! If same spin wave function meets this born (Frölich) Bose Einstein condensate that is consciousness. Spin wave born from action potential at same G-protein complex which makes next action potential. Action potential emerges foton, fonon,spin wave (and again Action potential). Gprotein is linked with actin+ tau+ MT+septin+NIF. (and only G protein+ NIF) Saltatory conduction works by same spin wave mecanism. The axon myelinated by oligodentrocyte is the mass storage of memory.

[@ExistenceUniversity]

@DarkNemesiss No. No.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

Maybe superposition of wave function as energy in the future, while classic particle measured in space of past?

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

Does measurement of quantum wave function transition from quantum gravity to classic gravity?

[@nunomaroco583]

Hi, just amazing, maybe we have several stages of consciousness, i belive most of the time people arent total consciousness, cause many trouble in the world, if people have full capacity of clean and true consciousness, we all suffer much less, all the best.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

Might time cause the backward causation described? For causation, space squared less time squared?

[@TheMikesylv]

A conscious computer has always seemed impossible to me , this was only a gut feeling. I was thrilled to hear Sir Roger Penrose confirm it. Unlike me he can prove it as well , which makes me feel better about this insane mad rush the stupid humans are blindly charging into without a ounce of self or group restraint .

[@nigelcunningham7673]

Hi Brian, I accidentally deleted my posts to your website. Could you kindly restore them? A very interesting website. Thanks Nigel

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

Quantum wave function in one direction (future), measurement evolves in other direction (past)? Maybe gravity / space-time from present to past, while quantum gravity from present to future? Then physical perception of measurement evolving in space-time / gravity; while quantum wave function superposition into future?

[@booradley4237]

Where does uninterrupted consciousness come from then, or does it always branch

[@resonant_theories]

this was live..? sad i missed the live..

[@DrBrianKeating]

We’ll do it again

[@titussteenhuisen8864]

Consciousness is working with thoughts, how do we know what a thought is? Can it be something more than voltage and hormones in nervous system? Can a thought or group of thoughts be something so small but still attached to physical matter without form or shape that we haven’t found such a small ‘thing’ yet?

[@squamish4244]

It is remarkable and amusingly frustrating to the countless skeptics how this theory just keeps withstanding criticism and being affirmed by experiments. Even the notoriously conservative tiny cadre of editors on Wikipedia's entries about 'woo woo', so to speak, can't dismiss the theory entirely no matter how hard they try. The last entry in the article is that Penrose and Hameroff responded to criticisms in 2014. Lol.

[@arandomguyontheinternet756]

What is also funny is that those sceptics keep repeating the same things they did before withoit providing solid basis for their hate. This shouldn't be even called scepticism, just close mind.

[@nigelcunningham7673]

I think all the conscious beings of this universe remain in this version of the universe. The universes are parallel and briefly overlap at a quantum level.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

Are microtubules classic objects in which measurement of wave function happens?

[@joukosalminen1549]

(Frölich) Bose Einstein condensate happens there. But not in S-S .But yes at unbound singlet between two indole group.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

In ORCH OR, quantum wave / field collapses in 10 power -7 seconds after reaching 10 power 15 tubulin threshold?

[@helicalactual]

Consciousness -> “ the differential geometry of the environment into a well defined energy state allowing for the transmittion of information as an equilibriating system” edit: generating intentful effect/affect

[@davidlakhter]

8:29 very interesting

[@DrBrianKeating]

Appreciate it

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

What if many worlds at quantum level not detectable by consciousness, as consciousness not happen until after collapse, or measurement of wave function?

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

Classic gravity affect quantum fields / wave function because of energy?

[@Battery-kf4vu]

Which animal on Earth has microtubules? And does that correspond to those who can be considered to have consciousness?

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

How do quantum fields happen in microtubules? What is the construction of microtubules that accommodates quantum fields?

[@joukosalminen1549]

They happens at hinges of dimer. Spin waves achieved by action potential is the key.

[@hyperduality2838]

Two realities or bi-stability implies duality! Alive is dual to not alive -- the Schrodinger's cat superposition. The word superposition actually means duality (two states).

[@travisfitzwater8093]

I will, respectfully, ask: Why would Gravitons be necessary if Gravity is based upon masses stretching space in their immediate vicinity? I can't sort this out.

[@arandomguyontheinternet756]

I missed this stream since right when it started I was in the middle of a sea but I wanted ot ask if there are gona be any aexperiments with octopuses or jellyfish

[@joukosalminen1549]

at late 1800 was observed that visible light activate jellyfish neuron.

[@numoru]

Why aren't Fourier holographics good enough? Ngl think Gabor had it close enough. QM is more like the topological structure producing the holographs and filtering the projections at the same time.All while allowing for self regulations at the QM level. I'm working on something, wish I could bring the guys onto my team.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

What is meant by computation?

[@joktanephraim]

It seems that emotions are chemical in nature, so does that mean that what we feel is actualized by the how the affects the quantum processes? Is there a resulting EM emission from said effects?

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

The Pribram hologram has to be noncommutative as Eddie Oshins tried to explain to Pribram. Pribram did not understand the noncommutativity of quantum physics. Oshins worked in Pribrams lab for a while to try to explain to Pribram but Pribram could not follow the mathematical logic. You can read Eddie Oshins' paper on Karl Pribram on Oshins' quantum psychology website. Of course Basil J. Hiley emphasizes this same noncommutativity and Penrose himself emphasizes the noncommutativity. I'm not sure Hameroff has studied the noncommutativity yet though.

[@SapphicTwist]

This podcast from a year ago feels a little bit anguished, perhaps due to a falling out between Penrose and Hameroff over the latter's falsification gaffe? I hope they have mended their relationship and can continue collaborating...

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

Roger's answer on the ET question that the signal could be from a previous Universe Eon was very well-played - most "ET CIA propaganda" people are not willing to think that far out. hilarious.

[@helpmechangetheworld]

You're right about how math is based on understanding. But "understanding" is created from physical interactions in the brain. There is nothing stopping us from, once we know how deep the brain structure goes, recreating similar physical patterns of understanding. Halting AI from growing unethically conscious is going to be about choice, not ability.

[@ExistenceUniversity]

No because AI can never exist. To have any I in AI requires you remove the A part. Only living beings can have intellect, any "AI" in the future will have to be built as a living creature, so it would just be "I".

[@helpmechangetheworld]

@@ExistenceUniversity or.... J

[@tevis190]

Brian, I would gladly trade the universe (we are in) where you did not win the nobel prize for the universe we are in where you have this wonderful show with the smartest guests in the world. Thanks, what you are doing is just as amazing, (survey says you win one in the end). Though I'm sure you want to live in the one with superposition of the two states exist! HaHa.

[@epolanowskirn]

We have thought of gravity as exponentially weak compared to other "forces". Gravity is at work in micro-tublules, and is potent POTENT medicine. Imagine how much of that it would take to effect us, on this side of the correspondence. In our meat universe of GR, gravity can move galaxies! It just takes a shit-load of it. On the QM side, it's everything. Thank you, all of you. Re-subscribed

[@gutterball10]

I'm confused, I thought the mechanism of action of anesthetics related to their affects on lipid rafts in cell membranes causing the activation ( or deactivation) of ion channels, leading to the effect of anesthetics, no microtubules needed. doi: 10.1073/pnas.2004259117

[@joukosalminen1549]

Not all anesthetics work on lipid membranes. Action potential makes spin wave that work in MT. All molecules that resonate by terahertz microwave are conductors of spin wave.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

Could our classical world be made up of many quantum worlds not detected by consciousness?

[@jainalabdin4923]

Quantum Consciousness is a red herring - I can subscribe to the brain having quantum properties and that consciousness emanates from the brain. Discussion around consciousness conflates the two. The real meat to the theory are two worlds - one of quantum collapse and the notion of the arrow of time, and the world of quantum superposition with the notion of time everywhere. The mechanisms that govern these worlds aren't understood, but a unified field theory incorporating gravity and EM is more than likely involved...

[@fulmarmusic1413]

I hope retrocausality is real. You can prove that a collapse can become a wave again, but you can't disprove retrocausality and I love that fact. Are we Boltzmann gods quantum tunnelling down the rabbit hole?

[@paulrite5358]

Can quantum computing give rise to consciousness?

[@sonarbangla8711]

Life and consciousness are QC functions as are the whole universe with all objects, with unitary evolution of Schrodinger's wave function. QC function involves infinite axion algorithm. Susskind provides a rudimentary finite gate quantum circuit (not yet tested). If we had infinite axiom algorithm we could, like Maldacena explain the whole universe and explain how deterministic the universe ensures life 9and explain dark matter and energy and more). Penrose explained how we can avoid decoherence, but it was Hameroff who stole the lime light when he indicated that microtubules are at the center of cell generation, to Penrose's utter happiness. But where do we get the algorithm. I think Cantor's construction of infinity from the finite, holds the key to Maldacena's conjecture and Susskind's finite gate can have infinite extension. Indeed we can comprehend the incomprehensible.

[@tnator3542]

Cogito, ergo, Dubito, ergo Sum. The 'I think' part is significant, yet is not as significant as the 'I doubt' part. But, what if the abilities to 'doubt' and 'understand' are just more strings pulled on our quantum minds by a quantum puppeteer, hidden in a higher dimensional realm somewhere? What if all we are is in a 'Matrix' of some sort?

[@showmewhyiamwrong]

with respect to the curvature of Spacetime i.e. Gravity, at the Quantum level would not it be appropriate at some level to expect this curvature to be small enough to ignore for practical/experimental purposes? In other words would a Quantum object curve its local spacetime in any significant way?

[@rwm1980]

I could picture brian being a body builder in a different life

[@deborahdean8867]

The collapse is necessary to stabilize this dimension, or matter, to sustain the physical world including energies, right?

[@yaserthe1]

Wow 91 still a genius.

[@DrBrianKeating]

Thanks

[@megamillionfreak]

Part 2? Where’s Part 1?

[@DrBrianKeating]

On the upload feed.

[@megamillionfreak]

@@DrBrianKeating Thanks, I see it.

[@jimmyjasi-anti-descartes7088]

After reconsidering all Alternative Cosmologies I think that CCC (my probably Cosmological First Love although physics is not originally my field of science, and of course Universe has no obligation to reflect my preferences nevertheless still CCC is the One I truly admire) The trouble I had with was philosophical in nature at first (the same probably applies to most other Europeans) as while we can imagine Infinite Future Span after Us, Infinite Past Span is something that our minds tend to reject on principle prior to doing any mathematics, but well... although it's now sadly associated with Hoffman I like Darwinian argument about how Universe doesn't reflect intuition that's wired in our Ape descended DNA. But nevertheless as to my personal and humble taste -Inflation (no matter how ingenious BICEPS were) is to "we occupy one of the few unlikely Poincare Recurency like Universes"(Everett like) -"Cosmic Natural Selection"- already falsified - "Russian Doll" Simulation Hypothesis -. unacceptable! -And Lemeitre dating Big Bounce -sounds too much Anti-Termodinamics CCC also solves our God(of Spinoza versus accident versus personal God) problem : Civilizations from previous Eons are our Gods that made Universe suitable and made certain things impossible! But there's also no point in worshiping Alien Gods as they are certainly long dead(so no UFO cults)!

[@garffieldiscool1163]

Valid points. I'm from the old school so when it comes to the God hypothesis I still like the love feeling although Love hurts sometimes.

[@jimmyjasi-anti-descartes7088]

@@garffieldiscool1163 Thanks

[@garffieldiscool1163]

@@jimmyjasi-anti-descartes7088 Your welcome.

[@gregoryhead382]

Is it possible that all viruses exist on the scale in between the diameter of an atom to the diameter of earth? In such an equation we would know how to go nuclear on any pathogen.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

What makes planck energy and mass so large?

[@derekboyt3383]

AI could appear to be conscious but until our species understands the root of consciousness we will not be able to give AI that status. At present AI uses digital logic to achieve its objectives and the human mind uses analog states. These are VERY different in how they produce results.

[@matterasmachine]

Quantum mechanics is so strange because it describes behavior of discrete machine. We are robots and our consciousness is state of algorithm execution.

[@DrBrianKeating]

Maybe

[@matterasmachine]

@@DrBrianKeating it gives fixed relativity and can be checked with synchrotron kzbin.info/www/bejne/sJTRc597ibWCg5o

[@helpmechangetheworld]

Regarding the "crazy looking theory". The issue is unity. You're refusing to Unify two types of inconsistent worlds with each other. And yet they must amount to the same world. This is why it is crazy looking, to me.

[@davidwilkie9551]

Science Education is operating much like a Recycling Centre, (e-Pi-i = CCC Reciproction-recirculation sync-duration = QM-TIME superposition), where most of the used-once material is tipped into Landfill waste disposal and only the items valued, (not necessarily innately valuable), are returned to general use.., Consciousness is the "thin thread", innate value to life, of Universal Existence in a bio-logical re-evolution environment where Reciproction-recirculation Singularity repositioning is the modulation pulse-evolution Math-Phys-Chem and Geometrical phase-locked quantization-> mechanical system of e-Pi-i probabilistic resonance bonding. Agnostic neutrality is sufficient for any Observation POV to look, listen, hear and see for yourself what, how and why inside-outside holographic presence is enough as a default methodology to cover all aspects of ONE-INFINITY Singularity. (Repeating your Self by repeating yourself in this standing wave), QM-TIME Reciproction-recirculation Singularity iS-ness orthogonal-normal superposition identification of probabilistic 2-ness to Infinity, ->picture-plane-> holography containment-presence, inside-outside Principle. Is AdS/CFT Condensation in Absolute 1-zero-infinity = i-reflection containment, by any description.., a Ghost?

[@rhysjones8105]

A more fruitful question than could a computer become conscious is maybe could a non biological engineered machine become conscious, as I think Roger assumes a computer means computational device, where others use the word computer to mean advanced machine that also computes.

[@fredflintstone8048]

Why would any sensible alien life form want to land on a planet where there are people who refuse to consider Orch OR as the mechanism for consciousness?

[@gabrielseagull7891]

DELICIOUS!!! MORE discussions like this, Brian!

[@DrBrianKeating]

Thanks so much! *What was your favorite takeaway from this conversation?* _Please join my mailing list to get _*_FREE_*_ notes & resources from this show! Click_ 👉 briankeating.com/mailing_list.php

[@Suggsonbass]

44:52 - maybe send Sabine some chocolates Brian? 🤣

[@mikepadavano4349]

555

[@mikejurney9102]

Godel's Incompleteness theorem only proves that the axioms of math are not derived from true or false. The system of propositional logic is complete because truth is part of the axioms. There every statement reduces to either true or false. But math statements are not reduced to true or false. The truth of math statements is recognized apart from the axioms. In other words, all basic axioms in math are true but not provable from the other axioms. That's part of the definition of being an axiom.