Plus System - diamond system for aiming two-rail kick shots, from VEPS IV (NV B.84)

Dr. Dave and Tom Ross describe, illustrate, and demonstrate how to use the Plus System (AKA Plus Two System) for aiming two-rail kick shots into the short rail first. This is an example shot from Disc IV of "The Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots" (VEPS). The VEPS series includes over 750 shots in 50 different categories, with over 250 "gems" of the game. The series is the most comprehensive collection of pool shots ever published. Disc IV covers kick and bank shots, along with several other categories of advanced shots.
CORRECTION:
- The spin diagrams with the video shots are incorrect. They should show left (running) english, not right (reverse) english. Sorry for the error.
Subscribe to Dr. Dave's KZbin Channel:
www.youtube.co...
Follow Dr. Dave on Facebook:
/ drdavebilliards
Show your Support (click on the donation button at the bottom of this page):
billiards.colo...
Purchase Dr. Dave's Instructional Videos and Merchandise:
DrDaveBilliard... (stream or download)
DrDaveBilliard... (physical DVDs)
DrDaveBilliard... (product info and purchasing advice)
drdavebilliard... (T-shirts, polos, mugs, posters)
Find Answers to Any Pool Questions:
billiards.colo...
Look Up Definitions for Pool Terms and Phrases:
billiards.colo...
Get Your Pool Diploma:
billiarduniver...
Attend a 3-Day Pool Boot Camp or Take a Private Lesson:
billiarduniver...
drdavebilliard...
Learn More About Dr. Dave:
billiards.colo...
Good Luck With Your Game!!!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

CORRECTION: The spin diagrams with the video shots are incorrect. They should show left (running) english, not right (reverse) english. Sorry for the error.

[@chadfertig6971]

I just think of the diagram as an x-ray through the cueball, from my perspective as a viewer watching the shooter stroking towards me.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@chadfertig6971 The standard way to show the tip position in spin diagrams is from the shooter's perspective. That's the way typical viewers expect to see it.

[@ElijahBobingerDragonogh]

Do you think you could redo these old instructional videos, starting with most popular?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@ElijahBobingerDragonogh That would be nice, but it would take a really long time, and that would reduce how much new stuff I come out with. Regardless, I often revisit topics in newer videos. For example, I have newer videos (and articles) covering the Plus System here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/plus/ Enjoy! And if you want to find newer stuff dealing with any topic, this is a good place to start to find it: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/

[@Mainswitch55]

I´m playing for 15 years now, stuff like this still makes the game soooo very fascinating! Thank you for this great video! It really did much for my game, and knowing how to hit a ball on the side you really wanna hit it instead of hoping is invaluable, especially in tournament play! Best regards

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Excellent points. That's why it is important to try the calibration shot on an unfamiliar table before playing so you can adjust accordingly when necessary.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You are correct. Running English (in this case left) is always used with the Plus System. Thank you for pointing this out. I was not aware of this error.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks. It does take practice, and the speed and amount of English are important, but it is a very useful system. Good luck with your game, Dr. Dave

[@NortheastLance]

I've learned more here for some reason then anywhere else about the diamond system. Thanks

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I'm glad to hear it. Thank you for the positive feedback, and please help spread the word about my stuff.

[@alaflash2]

OK, I don't have to leave this comment...because Raaance Lot said it... thx Dave! You said all the magic words for someone who usually misses the obvious/natural. immediate improvement, literally first ( 2nd, and 3rd, - 4th bad stroke) shot. subbed.

[@uhenoalvarez3480]

Dr.Dave thanks for all the videos !Keep up the good work, your videos have improved my game a tremendously and I have been playing for over fifty yrs. As a young player back then there were no videos, few book and almost no one would share their secrets which is by the way is common knowledge today.These players (today) owe you a great deal and yet they fail to take advandage of the information.I thank you for all the ( GEMS) also

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You're welcome, and thank you for the supportive comments. I'm glad to hear you find my stuff useful. Please help spread the word about my instructional products.

[@kolaas2006]

can wait to buy it, youve truly made billiards history!! No one will ever be able to make a more comprehensive research on pool.

[@martinez14146969]

I went from a 4 to a 7 in apa in one year from watching your videos thank you

[@DrDaveBilliards]

That's a great example. Thank you for posting it. As I show in the video, the speed and amount of English are important. Appleton has obvious practiced these types of shots.

[@maurice5726]

Wow this is absolutely helping now I understand how Efren Reyes is a Legend he studied all the physics of billiards for a long year

[@DrDaveBilliards]

If you practice and play as much as Efren has over the years, you wouldn’t need any systems ... you would be able to aim instinctively. Although, having said this, some top players do use systems for certain types of kick and bank shots.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks a bunch. I hope everybody agrees with you. Please help spread the word about VEPS. Cheers, Dr. Dave

[@DrDaveBilliards]

After you practice the system some, it's fairly easy to estimate the angle into the 3rd rail fairly accurately; although, you don't need to be perfect to get a good hit. We do present alternative systems on VEPS-IV but I don't clips for these online.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thank you for replying in English. Sorry about the spin diagram error. I added annotations to the video pointing out the error. Regardless, if you look at how Tom aligns at the ball, he is clearly using running english (left in this case).

[@binodtharu4456]

Really helpful! Thanks a lot! I don't play real billiards but the shot is same in 8bp! Thanks

[@DrDaveBilliards]

This is a useful system. I use it periodically in 8-ball safety escapes.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You must annotations turned off, because the video has an annotation that explains and corrects the error. The CB picture is wrong.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@computerbrent You can certainly use the system to accurately kick at balls away from the rails, but you need to have a good feel (through practice) for the path the CB takes off the 2nd rail, and you need to use the appropriate speed and English for the shot.

[@DevilDocPlays]

Yeah I had them off. I always turn them off watching videos. I honestly can't stand seeing them pop up...lol. Thanks for the reply. I have been practicing the diamond system. It's really helpful.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

It seems like a lot of numbers at first, but after you try it some, it ain't so bad. If you have enough intuition and experience to where you can aim these sorts of shots without any help, they you don't need the numbers. For people who don't, the numbers can be helpful.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

PS: FYI, I've added an annotation to the video indicating the correction. Thanks again!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Every table will "play" differently. The key is to find the necessary first-rail aim point for the reference shot, and to determine which diamond off the third rail goes to the pocket. Everything else is defined relative to that. The formula for predicting the third rail diamond should work pretty well on most tables. Have you tested this out? Check out the video again and figure out the reference diamonds for your table. Also, try the formula. I hope that helps, Dr. Dave

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@randallpaulcom Sometimes, you just need to adjust speed or the English amount to make the system work. You can also just use a comfortable speed and English and see how much correction is required on a given table. If the table is real crap, the system might not be helpful. Table vs. wife ... that's a tough one. :)

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Most multi-rail kicking systems require running english because it results in the best consistency.

[@florentibus01]

This stuff is priceless! I don't get where I should put the diamond 1 though...@4:36. I'd figure it'd be at the intersection of the short rail diamonds and the long rail diamonds and it looks to be on the edge of the pocket in contrast to in the center. Also, when we say a table is 9' long, does that mean 8 diamonds lengths is 9 feet or the length cushion to cushion is 9 feet?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks ... and you're welcome. Please help spread the word about my vids and instructional products.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@Apoproegmena The diamond systems work on tables of any size; although, results do vary some with ball/cloth/cushion conditions. The benchmark reference shot helps you determine how to adjust (with speed and/or English) on a particular table. Dr. Dave

[@florentibus01]

Excellent. Thank you!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I'm glad you like me stuff. Please help spread the word about my vids, websites, and instructional products. Concerning the adjustment, it is a 2-to-1 adjustment, where the amount shifted on the long rail is twice the amount shifted on the short rail.

[@Apoproegmena]

which size does the table have to be? or has it got the same effect on every table?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks for the comment. I'm glad you like the video. Please help spread the word about my vids and instructional products. Best regards, Dr. Dave

[@chrissalinas420]

This is a good system! I call it the 3,5,7 system

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The CB is the standard Aramith Red Measles CB. The OBs are nothing special ... just what came with the table (I don't know the brand, but they are probably on the cheap end of the scale).

[@mattiagatti1200]

Hello DrDave. What if the object ball is not near the rail? For example towards the center of the table or near the short rail? Is there a procedure to find which track from the second rail goes to that ball? Thank you!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You can still use the Plus System if you can first estimate the angle the CB will come toward the ball off the 2nd rail. The "midpoint parallel shift" method can be used for this (or it can be used instead of the Plus System): billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/midpoint/

[@14.1guy2]

Of course, your system must be adjusted for cloth, humidity, and the type of rails. I've found that Brunswick Super Speed rails tend to run longer on short angles than Diamond rails. I can't speak for Olhausen or Murray's products because I haven't played on them. It's mandatory that a player do a few tests before playing a match on a strange table or after conditions change, like after a room fills up with people.

[@larryleadman3356]

If you look at it really good you will see every shot add up to 80 if your on the 3 ball on 6 shot at 3 and thats 60 add it up

[@adhisurya2073]

A little bit confuse here, please help. So, I tried the shot from diamond 2nd on the long rail to 6th diamond on the short rail and it works. then I tried shoot from 2nd diamond on the long rail to 2nd diamond on the short rail but the ball goes long (it should be scratch on the middle pocket, right?) So after watch your video again and adjusting speed & spin. I figured out shooting the small number on the short rail makes the ball go long, so we need to use less english?- so the fundamental of the short rail is goes opposite from the higher number on the short rail? ( high number less spin goes longer, small number less spin goes shorter?) -correct me if im wrong, or my table just weird- thx in adv

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Sounds good to me. FYI, I have more detailed info in the articles linked here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/plus/

[@adhisurya2073]

@@DrDaveBilliards Thanks for the link, it helps me so much, btw, can you explain about the draw shot, how pro players r able to hit so low on the CB and didn't scratch. and is that necessary to hit that low?. thx

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@adhisurya2073 I cover the draw shot in detail in the videos and articles here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/draw/advice-and-drills/ It definitely helps to hit lower on the ball. It gives more draw for power shots and more control for finesse shots.

[@adhisurya2073]

@@DrDaveBilliards thx a lot

[@fishblade2]

I'm curious about two things. How would you change the shot if your object ball was on the bottom short rail instead of being up against the side long rail and you still need to make a two rail kick? Is there still a way to go just two rails and make it head towards the bottom short rail instead of always going towards the long rail as you did in the video? The other question is about on these two rail kicks what if there was a ball possibly blocking the pathway of the two rail kick on the opposite long rail (the second rail it always hits in the videos) how could you see what diamond the cue ball would hit to see if the other ball was indeed in the way of the cue ball going down table?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Concerning targeting a ball on the short rail, we show how to do this on the DVD. Basically, you just continue counting diamonds around the corner pocket (counting the pocket as a diamond). Concerning predicting the 2nd-rail contact point, there is no system for this; but it is not too difficult to visualize (especially with practice). I hope that helps, Dr. Dave

[@joejohnson2873]

What brand of balls do you use in your videos? Idk if it's the camera or lighting but they have a nice non shine-ivory look to them.

[@owleague]

Mi español es malo, pero voy a tratar de explicar. La rotación se aplica correctamente, sólo se muestra en el lado equivocado de la pelota en el diagrama. Sólo recuerde para aplicar la rotación en la misma dirección que la bola ya está viajando. 'My Spanish is bad, but I'll try to explain. The spin is applied correctly, but it is shown on the wrong side of the ball in the diagram. Just remember to apply the spin in the same direction the ball is already traveling.'

[@joejohnson2873]

Ah thanks I like the ivory look

[@MrWARGODS]

Hey dave will explain how to count the diamonds on the long rail or post illustration

[@DrDaveBilliards]

FYI, I have instructional articles with good illustrations here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/plus/ Check them out.

[@400fps]

this is quite confusing at start, perhaps it's the way it was said but that's not a problem i usually have with a dave video. I guess what i use is what he calls the Plus Two but not quite how he uses it, to me it one to one

[@TheSimCaptain]

Hey dr. dave, the cue ball diagram shows english on the wrong side of the ball. It shows reverse english and not running english.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

TheSimCaptain Per the “NOTE” in the video description, you are correct.

[@marka.bowman9910]

I've only been playing pool for about a year and have made decent progress so I am no expert but kicking is kinda feel for me. I can kinda look at the table and tell where to bank. The trick for me is speed. Seems easier to gauge than english.

[@Titanium369]

all shots require" feel". experience is key, Practice is experience. and a system is needed to practice.

[@marka.bowman9910]

Thank you good point dude!

[@CycloneReaper45]

all experts will tell u.. if ur kicking to make a shot u messed up somewhere before the kick.. however if ur kicking to hit ur ball out of defense that when it comes in handy.. IMO

[@DevilDocPlays]

Ok I am a little confused on the video. I see the white cue ball shows right english but as I watch the shooter he is using left english. So is the cue ball picture wrong?

[@vicvinson]

I learn something from all your videos and rewatch them fairly often. You Near the end of this clip @06:28 when you describe the angle adjustment, are you in effect parallel-shifting? Thanks!

[@Apoproegmena]

@DrDaveBilliards okay, thank you!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@Apoproegmena You're welcome! I aim to squerve, Dr. Dave

[@denizdogan4750]

Thanks

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You're welcome. I aim to swerve. :)

[@ricardogarrick8491]

Insightful...

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Ricardo Garrick Thanks. I’m glad you liked it.

[@ericou812]

you should do a video on a long 2 or 3 rail kick in...imagine the 8 ball is at corner pocket. or by side rail by corner pocket,cue ball is close to to head rail 1/4 away from corner pocket,you aim close to diamond closest to side pocket left english,the cue ball hits by side pocket then goes down close to corner pocket then hits far end other side of corner pocket comes back down hits 8 ball or 3rd rail kick in...its awesome kick in shot.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

How about this one: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fWXHp2yboKtmfLs

[@anthonyherron9720]

the English shown is reversed from whats being used

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Agreed, per the CORRECTION in the video description and the pinned comment.

[@wylykyotys]

The diagram has right spin on the cue ball but it appears the shooter is using left. Which is it?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The diagram is wrong. I have annotations on the video, but they aren't visible on all devices.

[@aaronchallenger9783]

DrDaveBilliards

[@shadmonk]

dr Dave, what about if u are shooting into the corner, rather than out of it? i.e the other way round, hitting the long rail first?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The Plus System works only if you hit the short rail first. The Corner 5 System works for long-rail-first shots. Video demos and more info can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#Corner Enjoy, Dr. Dave

[@rogerscottcathey]

The illustration shows right English, but it sure looks like the cuist is using left English in the examples around 4:45.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You are correct, per the "NOTE" in the video description.

[@rogerscottcathey]

I missed reading that!

[@zander4603]

Honestly The Whole VideoI was Like ; Yeaah😮😶😐

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I don't know what that means, but thank you for commenting.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

VEPS-IV explains and demonstrates many different aiming systems for various types of kicks and banks. If you want to use more than your "guts," you might want to check it out. Dr. Dave

[@jystdoug5097]

I learn from the arrows more than the plus system. I find it extremely confusing. My 7 ft table, i have to aim for just half past 2nd diamond on side rail, over to just past 1st diamond on next rail with left english to make that. pocket.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Jyst Doug Every table plays a little different, especially Diamond brand tables that bank and kick much shorter than other brands. That’s why you need to practice and make adjustments to the system on a particular table before you hope to use it in a game successfully.

[@alooykappa9865]

Good

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@digimortal401 Thanks for the comment. You're welcome! Please help spread the word about my vids, website, and instructional products.

[@joblo9773]

VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION FOR ALL CONSUMERS: How does VEPP Disc IV compliment the Foundation For Kicking And Banking (3 Volume Set) by Monk & Rossman [the latter recently purchased at a Dr. Cue clinic]?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I think consumers who own the other DVD can judge themselves whether they would benefit from the VEPS and VEPP DVDs by viewing the video excerpts here: dr-dave-billiards.com/veps/disc_IV.html dr-dave-billiards.com/vepp/disc_IV.html and the complete tables of contents here: dr-dave-billiards.com/veps/disc_IV_shots.pdf dr-dave-billiards.com/vepp/disc_IV_shots.pdf I hope that helps, Dr. Dave

[@joblo9773]

DrDaveBilliards Well, not really or sort of. I'd assume so-and-so would be familiar enough w/ both. IOW I put down $$ and so need I put down more $$ ought to be a question for the "ultimate sources" so to speak. In academia we call that a review of the extant sources if I'm not mistaken.

[@joblo9773]

jo blo review of literature I meant

[@DrDaveBilliards]

jo blo Sorry, but I don't get your point. Could you be more specific or clear? Thanks.

[@joblo9773]

DrDaveBilliards just that it's nice to see some history so to speak. helps give perspective. we consumers generally assume that a producer is highly familiar w/ the "competition" so to speak, tho in this unusual case the "peer" or "competitor" is self [peer review]. that's even less a conundrum than apparent. one thing that used to lack (in consumer rather than scholarly) literature was annotated bibliography. there's room for that now. nod wink memo whatever. we see "simplified" corner five kick system et. al. so it's nice (and i'm assuming easy relatively) to say "simplified from who/what/when/where," then perspective is IMMEDIATELY evident. there's nothing new under the sun. newton stood on euclid's shoulders et al.

[@tomebebe]

la explicacion esta mal porque la bola señala un punto que luego el tio da al otro

[@gamertv3421]

What if the white ball is in different position

[@DrDaveBilliards]

It works the same regardless of where the CB is. You count back from the target until the matching-number line goes through the CB, as we demonstrate in the video.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

If the CB is off a standard line, just do a 2-to-1 shift (or estimate between the closes reference lines), as we demonstrate in the video.

[@jmoney4252]

Is there a system where u don't have to use English on most shots like it seemed like u had to

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Sorry, but I don't know Spanish (or whatever language this might be).

[@richardweddel3453]

Dr. Dave, I know I've been asking lots of questions on your videos, and I'm thankful for all your insight. I've been practicing 2 and 3 rail kicks a lot lately, and using this system, only one type of shot still stumps me from time to time. When the OB isn't against the rail, and the CB isn't either, then how do you calculate your kicking aim point? Like so: imgur.com/dYbfZAT

[@DrDaveBilliards]

We cover this in detail in VEPS and VEPP. One way is to mirror the CB or OB, measuring with your cue, to determine the aim point. The following video shows another way: Kick Shot Aiming Systems - How To Aim Kick Shots - from Vol-III of the BU instructional DVD series FYI, lots of instructional articles and advice concerning how to aim kick and bank shots can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I'm glad you like my stuff. Please help spread the word about my vids and instructional products. For the diamond 1 location, see the following video at 1:44: NV B.81 - Bank and kick shot terminology and basics, from VEPS IV The diamond systems work for tables of any size.

[@arslangamer678]

Boos can u make one vedio in urdu plz

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You can view subtitles in any language by clicking on the closed caption (CC) icon at the bottom of the video. Then click on the Settings (gear) icon and select the language you want under "Subtitles/CC."

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Google Translate to Urdu: آپ ویڈیو کے نچلے حصے میں بند کیپشن (سی سی) آئیکن پر کلک کرکے کسی بھی زبان میں ذیلی مضامین دیکھ سکتے ہیں. پھر ترتیبات (گیئر) آئیکن پر کلک کریں اور اس کی زبان منتخب کریں جو آپ چاہتے ہیں "ذیلی فلموں / CC" کے تحت.

[@mattimasing5526]

So why not correct the error on the video? Since then this video cannot teach!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I have corrected all known errors in the stream/download versions of my full-length videos here: drdavebilliards.com/videos/stream/ Unfortunately, KZbin does not allow you to replace a video with a corrected version without deleting the video and all of its comments and view history and starting over from scratch.

[@rawhideleather]

PLEASE NOTE THAT THE CUEBALL ENGLISH DIAGRAMS ARE WRONG! YOU'RE WELCOME.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Unfortunately, it is too late to fix the KZbin video, but I do have a pertinent "NOTE" in the video description above. The diagrams are correct in the stream/download versions of the full VEPS videos (drdavebilliards.com/stream_vimeo.html).

[@Patzolino]

This is no system at all after you constantly need to adjust your english. How am I supposed to to that during a play?! I can't go through every single position before the game so I can memorize each correction that needs to be applied for them...

[@DrDaveBilliards]

+Plamen Dimitrov If someone teaches you a kicking or banking "system" and claims no adjustments are required for speed, angle, distance, spin, and conditions, they are lying to you. Many of the commonly-used kicking and banking systems (billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html) work well over limited ranges of speeds and angles, but adjustments are always required in different situations. That's why practice and benchmark shots are so important ... to help you learn how and when to adjust.

[@danielpincus221]

+Plamen Dimitrov Listen to him at 2:00. Every good player tests these shots on the table at hand so that they get the feel for the English and speed required.

[@thmswalters]

1. Practice. 2. When you show up to play competitively on new tables or tables that have been re-felted or something, dial the shot in while you warm up incase you need it so you know how it reacts. Always dial it in from the same diamond positions so you get a feel for your baseline. 3. Try adjusting with speed instead of english maybe. 4. Just play better position.

[@stefanjovanic7725]

Well duuh it is the meaning of game isn't it ? :D You can't hit the balls always in same way, man it is a pool game you need to constantly adjust your angle speed and every other aspect on every shot. This is explanation when you hit the ball where it will bounce after it hits the second rail with small english and medium speed. Everything else is practice.

[@gambloduck6633]

Great response. No two tables are the exact same

[@rubAdub001]

TOO MANY NUMBERS!!!

[@yapaul6226]

Can this be more confusing??

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Khonsavanh Hemsouvanh Yes.