Dreyse Zündnadelgewehr versus M1854 Lorenz Rifle-Musket

We comprehensively compared the capabilities and limitations of the iconic Prussian Dreyse bolt action Zündnadelgewehr (needle rifle) against the Austrian Lorenz rifle musket. These rifles went toe to toe in 1866 at the Battle of Königgrätz. Could the battle have turned out differently if better tactics had been used? Was the muzzleloading Lorenz truly the obsolete rifle? We explore these questions by shooting these rifles at short, medium, and long ranges with the historically correct ammunition.

[@renc7305]

I like how extensive the comparison is. Really shows just how much of an advantage the Dreyse had; no wonder the Dreyse could enable a sort of proto-walking fire. Even for a single shot rifle, get a group of men to fire one after the other while walking, you could easily pin down a position being defended by soldiers with muskets. Nice video!

[@EmmettShaw-yo9sw]

Lorenz Rifled Musk... -

[@eliaslundsby69420]

The Advantage the dreyse had over the rifled musket was that the muskets could fire 3 rounds a minute and The Dreyse could fire op to 10 rounds a minute and it had much better accuracy

[@RadekRaVoS]

Hello from Czech republic :) I am living in the 1866 war zone, so no wonder that this war and guns is one of my hobbys. And this video is great :) Love to see shooting this guns and hear some words about. Btw. every year near Hradec Králové (Koniggratz) 1866 war reenactment taking place with big numbers of guns, soldiers, horses etc.. And next year, in 2021, is 155 years anniversary. Thanks for super video :)

[@MrCameronian]

I was there in 2016, I’m hoping to get over this year too 👍🏽

[@RadekRaVoS]

@@MrCameronian It looks like this year will no action taking place :( At "Komitét 1866" channel is new series about this war, but still only in czech language. But they say, that the situation with 155 years anniversary looks bad :/

[@MrCameronian]

@@RadekRaVoS That’s a pity, I’m in the 1866 Committee but the newsletters are in Cz so I can’t read them 😂

[@WackySwackyAdventure]

This channel deserves many more views.

[@capandball]

:) Love to see folks just as idiot as I am. :) Well done guys!

[@ThomasRonnberg]

That dreyse gun really is quite a phenominal piece of engineering for it's time.

[@davidchappell1562]

Great job guys, it's good to see someone else shooting a Dreyse! :-) There are not enough of us doing it/mad enough!

[@orcabolgsweetie2430]

What a great video. Impressed to see you have a Lorenz and a Dreyse, actively shooting. Love to see mote videos of these.

[@Betterhose]

Thank you very much for this video! Kudos to both of you. You were both handling your weapons very proficient. Beautiful shooting. I love to see an antique firearm used in the fashion it was meant to be used and not just for recreational shooting. You can tell immediately how the "firepower" of the Dreyse is superior to a muzzleloader. I am from Germany. I am obsessed with this gun, because it played a crucial role in the german unification of 1871.

[@EmmettShaw-yo9sw]

paplock(caplock) - weaponry

[@atune2682]

love it! thanks for uploading!

[@ikistaer]

My history lessons have kept me mostly in a NA mindset. This vision of Europe is fascinating.

[@woodonfire7406]

Considered the Americans during the civil war lucky that the Prussians were never involved Superior infantry tactics, generals, Weapons and howitzers would crush both sides in a much swifter war

[@comradecosmonaut7746]

Makes it even wieder when you consider that by the time of the American civil war the dreyse was all ready in its 12th year of service.

[@schinsky6833]

@@woodonfire7406 That´s debatable. Didnt they already have gattling guns in the civil war?

[@LIGHTNING278TH]

@@schinsky6833 That's even largely irrelevant. The Prussians would lose fairly quickly because they still have to move all of their troops, supplies and everything else across the Atlantic and deal with a fairly incensed and hostile local population that they largely would be unable to communicate with. Not to mention the land mass difference. If the British at the height of their colonial power felt it wasn't worth the hassle there is no way that Prussia would even stand a remote chance at a successful outcome.

[@presidentlouis-napoleonbon8889]

If you showed the Lorenz earlier, I might not been sleeping at the end of the video. Just a joke!! I really loved the video, I hope there was also an accuracy test in the future.

[@thebotrchap]

Exceptional demonstration gentlemen and I’m jealous of the chance to shoot BP as such extended range. I would very much like to know your method of reproducing the Langbleipatrone as I have had no luck with the sabot. I have a pristine M62 Beck which shoots all day with round ball cartridges (fouling is negligible) but I want to test the potential using the intended bullet.

[@fridtjofnansen6743]

Nice Video guys. Like to see you so enthusiastic with that topic. I really like that you showed most of the reloading. I like it. It has some kind of aesthetic to it. People often only see The Austrians and Prussians in this war. But many Kingdoms in Germany fought alongside Prussia and Austria. The Bavarians, the men from Baden, the Saxons, the Wurtthembergians and surprisingly the Hannoverians (unfortunately they forgot their ammunition in Hannover…) also fought alongside Austria. They fought for the Banner of black, red and gold. The Oldenburgeans and the Hanseatic states fought for alongside Prussia. They all had own uniforms and sometims differing weapon typs. Very interesting. Those things are mentioned in „Uniformenkunde“ by Knötel. Some depictions can be seen in the internet.

[@papercartridges6705]

You’ll probably enjoy the recent videos I’ve done on the channel, which go in depth more into the 1866 war including the Mainfeldzug with Bavaria and the other west German states.

[@konradadenauer7005]

Thanks, Top Video!!! I have tried the Prussen long Blei, M 55, distanze 600m ! Jägerbüchse M65 /Beck ,Target 1,5 x 1,5 M .10 shot, 7 hits 3x Miss ..2 Brummer )

[@leadshark9461]

Goes to show that the Austro-Prussian War would have been a much more costly affair for the Prussians had the Austrians used better tactics that utilized the advantages of the Lorenz.

[@felixboess3796]

Me as an Austrian I have to say I like this imagination

[@familiegrundner4307]

Me too

[@presidentlouis-napoleonbon8889]

The Dreyse's gun may, but the tactical doctrines of the day maximized the effectiveness greatly.

[@Bhartrampf]

Nice video and comparison of both rifles. I have a Dryse that was converted to 12ga cartridge, I am assuming it was converted after the rifles were decommissioned as it has the Liage proof on the new barrel.

[@GizmoDuck_1860]

Really, really cool and interesting video. Thanks for sharing. May I ask (and I'm not starting anything) why do you use a wide steel plate and say, not a Figure-11 man-sized target? Is the plate to represent a couple of blokes side by side on column?

[@papercartridges6705]

Laziness, for the most part. Steel makes a satisfying clang when I hit it, while I have to walk out and see what I did in a paper target.

[@jochenheiden]

That Lorenz really smacks that target hard. What are the typical velocities of a standard load out of those things?

[@jordanandrew2786]

The shot velocity on such black powder rifles is not so impressive. The reason for the strong impact is the sheer mass of the bullet. Bullets used to be much larger in those days.

[@EpicThe112]

The Clear Choice for this one is Dreyse Gewehr because you can reload it is in a prone position due to its bolt action mechanism

[@olympicblackpowderrifles3155]

I feel the need to come down there and have a good shoot off vs you guys!!

[@felixstieger9039]

I know I’m quite a bit late. But I wanna say two things. First. I believe with a English style of cartridge the prone shooting would have been a bit simpler. You’ll not spill as much powder since you rip it open at the muzzle and not bite it open. Also. Austrians speak Bavarian.

[@MrCameronian]

Very enjoyable. Only the Lorenz Jaegerstutzen was intended to be fired from prone. In defensive situations the KK infantry usually formed fire teams, 2/3 loading, one firing. The compression bullet was withdrawn in 1863 because of the uneven quality being encountered in rifles manufactured by sub-contractors, it was replaced by a Minie type sub-cal round. The fixed sight Lorenz was only designed to hit targets at 220m or less. Austrian storm 'columns' were usually 6 or 8 ranks deep, a round going over the first rank would prob strike men behind.

[@papercartridges6705]

Someday I am going to reproduce the Podewils expansivgeschoss and test it against the compression bullet.

[@ReviveHF]

At long range : Lorenz At short range : Dreyse

[@MrGarwest]

Congratulations! We also shoot the Dreyse needle-ignition system with all of the models used on our channel, with duplicates of the M/41, M/47, M/55(1) M/55(2) and M/72(N/A) Patronen for Beck conversion. Have conducted shooting to maximum range of 600 yards at Bisley. Beck conversion increased velocity and obturated the chamber, leaving it free of fouling. Furthermore, evaluated with and without their respective bayonets fixed to discover effect on barrel harmonics. Also evaluated the M/54 and M/61 (experimental) Lorenz with the compression bullet. Regards, G and L A-=R-West Fellows of the HBSA

[@papercartridges6705]

Yes, I have long appreciated your channel and the incredible research you've done on the Dreyse. It was extremely helpful to me while I was learning to make the M/55 Langblei Patronen. My Füsiliergewehr somehow escaped the Beck conversion and has original sights and bolt. It gets very dirty with fouling, but remains functional, even though accuracy decreases.

[@AbrahamLincoln4]

Prussian soldiers worse sneakers at the Battle of Koniggratz. The more you know.

[@papercartridges6705]

Thats why they were able to sneak up on the Austrians.

[@8023120SL]

Very entertaining! My pattern 1854 Lorenz built 1855 has a 28# trigger and that's after polishing every friction surface. It makes shooting it... "interesting".

[@papercartridges6705]

That's what makes these old guns so much fun, they each have their own "personalities" and several lifetimes worth of stories.

[@marioschneider5129]

The higher rate of fire was crucial.

[@TheOldTeddy]

Good job.

[@ChristianThePagan]

Awesome, Being part Prussian myself I particularly liked all the sarcastic Hapsburg jokes.

[@sonnyraine3445]

I prefer accuracy by volume in a line battle scenario

[@konighartzderiv.4898]

Does the M1860 Version of this gun has the same problems as the early versions of it?

[@sha_663]

Austrian teenager: loading for his life People now: Ima go to the bathroom

[@matthiasknutzen6061]

Did they real put the ram rad into(under) the rifle each time why not hold it under your arm or something

[@pacificnorthwestprotest]

The Needle rifle is superior. Is there anywhere I can buy the sabots for the needle gun?

[@CostaCola]

The muzzle velocity or lack there of! POW.........plonk

[@HarborLockRoad]

Thanks again guys, youve made me fel a bit better about my gewehr 88. Lol😝

[@HaNsWiDjAjA]

@Paper Cartridges What do you think of the verdict of the period British and Austrian field trials on the Dreyse? They Austrian in particular seemed convinced that the gun was prone to spraying hot gas on soldiers' faces, to the point that they would shoot it from the hip only. The British thought the needle needed replacement every 12 rounds. Since you guys obviously did not experience any of these, what could possibly explain these discrepancies?

[@papercartridges6705]

The British gave it a very close look; I haven’t seen the Austrian trials. There was considerable bias to breechloaders and the “hip firing” myth can be seen in the 19th century sources. I think there was a degree of confirmation bias, and given that a conventional rifle-musket by the late 1850s had far better ballistics, the Dreyse was an easy pass for Austria and the UK. I’ve had needles last 50+ rounds, and some broke after one round (though I think my cartridge design is probably at fault, rather than the needle system itself). I have never experienced any blast of leaking gas in my face, even when (foolishly, admittedly) I shoot it without glasses.

[@1963felonee]

@@papercartridges6705 I have to say if I was head of the war department, and I already had rifled muskets, with exceptional accuracy, i think I'd keep them and ask the generals to learn distance tactics, and do something to allow soldiers to become proficient marksmen

[@panzerdeal8727]

Note on the needle rifle: I counted 11 rounds before the [ unscripted] box change and 3 after for a total of 14 in 2 minutes, average 8.7 seconds per shot in prone. Not bad.

[@KI.765]

The dislikes are just angry Austro-Hungarians

[@matthiasknutzen6061]

Wonder how much more powerful the Dreyse would be with gun cotton 🤔 a bit risky though perhaps

[@RichardGoth]

15:40 Sneak Prussian divebomber attack!

[@erikschultz7166]

So where can I get Dreyse cartridges?

[@papercartridges6705]

Easiest way is to build a Time Machine, go back and get some. The hard way is to make them. Very tedious. Everything has to be just right for them to work.

[@SanitysVoid]

Where can I get a Prussian Needle Rifle?

[@papercartridges6705]

Originals usually come up for sale at the usual auction houses. They are scarce and prized by collectors, so they will not come cheap. Occasionally a Czech made reproduction will show up, and I believe these are smoothbores.

[@knightman4574]

Very accurate and Vanderful video. So if the Austrians tried to use tactic and fire at 500M at the Prussian army that would have been effective. But anyways the percussion cap era exactly lead to the dreyes and it’s ammunition that gave birth to future weapons.

[@flekzyyt9709]

They whooped the danish forces with this one.

[@windogendoors7566]

Where did you get the uniform?

[@papercartridges6705]

My friend found a source, I think he was in India. The uniform is cheap and low quality, but it works for our purposes.

[@vornamenachname920]

Where do I find the Dreyse rifle?

[@windogendoors7566]

Gun shows/gun shops. Online listings. But good luck they are collector's items and fetch a high price.

[@aaronz.5093]

Which book is that excerpt (in German) about the muzzle velocity taken from?

[@papercartridges6705]

"Die modernen Ordonnanz-Präcisionswaffen der Infanterie" compiled by Herrmann Weygand, 1876.

[@aaronz.5093]

@@papercartridges6705 Thank you!

[@wolfganghuhn7747]

Sturmgewehr vs k98, high rate of fire at closer range wins

[@joseluisrobles4375]

1866 New Balance, yeah

[@davidgruen7423]

11:17 that’s total bullshit, no one is stopping them to pre open the pack before the battle.

[@martinflahertyv9353]

Fuck yea

[@Marco-bf4uu]

,,Speaking Austrian" lol that's so American xD Very epic video tho

[@Marco-bf4uu]

@Matt M I know, I'm Bavarian. Fuck standardised German, long live the dialects!

[@skepticalbadger]

It was a joke...

[@presidentlouis-napoleonbon8889]

Oh you guys did. NVM

[@Preyhawk81]

To bad you cant buy any reproduction of this rifle :( or the carbine version.

[@fredericbouquin1815]

Je préfère le chassepot

[@es11614]

Horizontal drift on a group when aimed at a fixed point is an indication that the shooter is jerking the trigger and not squeezing it. Vertical drift when applied in the same way indicates that it is the shooters breathing rythme. If it looks like a shotgun has hit it well there is something wrong with either the tool, or the tool behind the tool.

[@papercartridges6705]

Rapid fire from the standing unsupported position with a 160 year old rifle… I’m happy just to hit the target!

[@dominicewing8940]

Just face it, the Prussians were better when it came to the rifles. The Lorenz is a nice rifle but those Austrians just got slaughtered by the Prussians.

[@hollijohnson1563]

@@tatumergo3931 And not to mention the prussians had the far superior rifle...

[@lutzderlurch7877]

@@hollijohnson1563 Erm...I think you missed the part about the chassepot

[@HaNsWiDjAjA]

@@tatumergo3931 Actually the Austrian artillery was about equal with those of the Prussians during the war. The famous Krupp C64 cast-steel breechloader had only started being introduced when the conflict broke out, so the Prussians made do mostly with old front stuffers during the war. The lack of effeciveness of the Prussian artillery was one of the major area of reform Moltke pursued after the war.

[@MichaelJohnson-tw7dq]

Are those authentic Prussian military tennis shoes or reproductions?

[@papercartridges6705]

Very authentic, handmade by Moltke’s own shoemaker.

[@MichaelJohnson-tw7dq]

@@papercartridges6705 lol…….both you and the shoemaker do great work

[@isaacribeiro1317]

What hat are you wearing in the thumbnail

[@papercartridges6705]

The Prussian Feldmütze, which was used through the Prussian and later German empire, until the 1920s. Of course they switched from Prussian dark blue to field gray by WWI.

[@hermannmitterer855]

A little tip: Austrians speak German and not Austrian

[@skepticalbadger]

That was, I believe, a self-deprecating joke about how Americans sometimes say "if it wasn't for us you'd be speaking German/Japanese". Exaggerated/signposted by deliberately saying 'Austrian' instead of 'German'.

[@jordanandrew2786]

​@@skepticalbadgerkrauts are known to be comedically challenged. And jokes aside, Austro-Bavarian is essentially it's own language, and is not mutually intelligible with most other forms of German.

[@Tonifiocchi]

Nnniiiccce👍👍👍

[@TheStapleGunKid]

Just think of what a difference the Dreyse would have made in the American Civil War. If the Union had made it their standard issue rifle, it would have shortened the war by years.

[@papercartridges6705]

It’s definitely interesting to think about the possibilities!

[@1963felonee]

It's been talked about before, and although a weapons change would have had some change, the most important change could have been walkie talkies and a pager or cell system. During the war there were plenty of guns firing as fast or faster than the Dreyse and being more accurate while doing it, a few units of full auto could have been interesting though

[@hokehinson5987]

Pretty lame muzzle velocity less than a .45 APC. The .58 minie 1200 fps MV or better if shooting military loads 60 grains...

[@kevinbarnes5200]

I’m glad I’m not speaking Austrian

[@Marco-bf4uu]

German..

[@kevinbarnes5200]

@@Marco-bf4uu yes, I know. It was a joke. He mentioned speaking Austrian in the video, if I recall

[@Marco-bf4uu]

@@kevinbarnes5200 Yea, I heard that xD

[@vonJosephu]

Austrian is the superior form of German, more melodious and elegant than the barking of the Prussian or the stuttering lisp of the Low German

[@skepticalbadger]

@@kevinbarnes5200 Yeah, that was a joke too... Admittedly Americans aren't known for dry humour, but that's what it was.

[@alecblunden8615]

" all be speaking Austrian'? How do you expect to be taken seriously after sch a basic mistake?

[@papercartridges6705]

Chill, bro. It was a joke.

[@ml50486965]

The real reason why the Austrians lost was not because of inferior rifles, but because of that disgusting, decadent, ridiculous, inferior Radetzky March!

[@Radishindependent]

americans know how to use guns but not how to pronounce names

[@papercartridges6705]

Pretty much, yes.

[@Radishindependent]

@@papercartridges6705 oh shit i didnt expect a reply

[@Blackwidower235]

Sorry friends - but this is not Dreyse which would be used in 1866 - and also not the type of shooting used by prussian army. As fan it looks good - but as historical reproduction it is very poor

[@papercartridges6705]

It is a Model 1860 Fusiliergewehr and absolutely was used by the Prussian Army. This is an original rifle and is not a reproduction.

[@Blackwidower235]

@@papercartridges6705 well - once again - Im firing from M1841 for the 15 years and this is not themethod and way how the gun was used. Simply because - you have only 60 rounds and are able to used just 40 in real - and probably just 30 without cleaning :-)