Drum Overheads - Recording Drums without Samples - Part 1 - Mastering Drum Overheads

[@tommibjork]

This is how I have been recording drums for the past 10 years to get snare and kick in the center. Great tutorial once again.

[@JustinColletti]

Split down the center (Old-School Technique) 2:12 Split diagonally (New-School Approach) 2:43 #1 sounds way more classic and rockin' to me! #2 Sounds okay as well. A bit more like a late-80s/early-90s prog-noodle record. I'd go for #1, personally, but both are legit approaches. Thanks for sharing!

[@creativesoundlab]

Justin Colletti Thanks Justin! Yeah, I used #1 for a long time but really liked how the ride cym was more centered in #2. That's what sold it for me.

[@OTTOAUDIO]

you've got the best sounding drums (overheads) , tuned and demo playing, in all of youtube

[@creativesoundlab]

ROTTOBOT Thanks!

[@teddygrant5416]

This is crazyyyyy before I heard of your chanenel I tried the diagonal mic placement to emulate the Motown mono drum sound and it's been my favorite overhead option since December 2015 I'm glad I'm not the only one who does this!

[@MadJack122]

Hi Ryan, I love your videos, your ideas on re-amping and "bringing things into reality" is exactly what a love about production and what I've been practising for a while now. When I got introduced to the technology of re amping I was blown away and have been using it constantly ever since.

[@creativesoundlab]

MadJack122 Thanks for saying hello! Yeah, I live by these techniques and reamping is one of them that is just so useful.

[@charlie_sin_mag]

It's so nice to see someone else doing this with overheads...I understand why so many people go with 'standard' overhead positions, but I've always thought if what's meant to be in the middle is in the middle and in mono compatible, do whatever the hell ya like!

[@creativesoundlab]

Charlie Draper Thanks. Yeah some have said they like options that I don't use, and I respect that too.

[@ddrum1090]

Really appreciate the tips here man! Great drumming as well! Always nice to hear someone who's well rounded on the kit while getting an explanation.

[@StephenTack]

Great stuff! -Subscribed This would be an ideal juncture to bring up the two ways in which human stereo hearing operates: 1. Volume - Louder sound in the left ear, is interpreted as sound source on left. 2. Time of Arrival - A particular sound (especially transients) that gets to the right ear first (but less than ~30ms difference, or it will sound like a short echo), is interpreted as a sound source on right. These modes can interact to complement, or counteract the perception of stereo placement. This is why spaced pair overhead techniques tend to sound wider than coincident techniques. They capture both ways in which we perceive stereo. Also, oddly, a sound can be (a little) louder in your left ear, but still sound like it's on the right if it arrives there soon enough before the left. Though this tends to yield an unsettling effect. Cheers!

[@Bdmctear]

So honored to be name dropped here! Holy Moly. To clarify a little bit, the method we've devised (you're calling it the McTear Method ... I guess I call it the Miner Street Method or the Weathervane Method, since that's where we designed it) is NOT for 2 mics. It's actually for 3 mics: (1) a center mono ribbon following the dividing line method you talked about (super cool to see that), (2 & 3) is a pair of condensers loosely similar to how you placed them in the demo. I should also point out that it's really a work in progress, and I've made some major adjustments to it in the past few months. We have a new order to setting them up that works a little more predictably along those dividing concepts. I plan to write it out, with pics in the next couple weeks and would love it if you'd try to reproduce it in your studio there, to see if it works for you as well. Thanks again!

[@creativesoundlab]

Thanks Brian for your feedback and I'm honored to hear from you! I remember from the Shaking Through raw tracks that the 4038 was a big part of the sound.

[@creativesoundlab]

+Brian McTear Follow up episode now available on the Weathervane Method (Reference as the "McTear Method"): kzbin.info/www/bejne/gWqxm5iZe6uif7M

[@VijverEendje]

And again you did it! Love the video man! Keep up the good work

[@georgerobb1546]

Seriously good information and a great presentation. Excellent teacher. Thank you.

[@jts400hp]

Great info and I love your channel Ryan, you should have 100thousand subs!

[@scottyb1300]

That recorderman sounded really good for what I am doing. I used to always just go with a spaced pair, but it looks like I'm going to go with an asymmetrical pair from now on.

[@subterraneoestudio]

awesome video!!! i´ve been watching all your videos, and experiment in my home studio, it has been fun

[@stix2slivers]

Just stumbled across your channel and I must say I really enjoyed your tutorial, very useful information, thanks for sharing and the education, cheers Bruce

[@creativesoundlab]

stix2slivers Thanks, I'm glad I could help!

[@octopusonfire100]

Very nice tutorial, just found these by chance and I'm already subbed. Thanks for doing this!

[@creativesoundlab]

saikun23ify Thanks for following the show!

[@starboy2013]

I like the quality of your presentation....that is a good sounding room as well....

[@creativesoundlab]

+jack smith Thanks!

[@ddrum121]

Just found this channel, subbed. Your content is great man! Keep doin whatcu doin

[@WayanJos]

may i ask what the dimension of that room? sounds great!

[@Banmier]

Great video series man! I love the sound of the Glyn Johns technique. I'm going to try that out first chance I get!

[@dw13ronro]

Great set up, great tuning, great recordings!

[@creativesoundlab]

Thanks!

[@psklpt]

Your drums are always really well tuned! Could you do a video of how you tune them? :D Pleasssssssse

[@creativesoundlab]

+psklpt Sure, I'll do a video on that. Not the most interesting topic, but an important one.

[@SteveStockmalMusic]

I’d say it’s a VERY interesting topic and SUPER important. For example, I speak 4 languages and the MOST important thing I ever learned was “pronunciation is the key”. If I say “ fkdfkhasdkklsdfjdyejhriwksdvn” you’ll be like “Whaaaaaaat”. But if I pronounce it correctly you’ll be like “ahaaaaaaaa”. : ) so yeah, your kit sounds awesome and we’d like to know how you approach that !!!!!!

[@jeannadeau1508]

Very nice explaining of these technique.

[@creativesoundlab]

Jean Nadeau Thanks, Glad I could help

[@creativesoundlab]

One of my viewers asked: Are we hearing only the overheads? Are those other mics turned on? Love the sound of that R88. Reply: Yeah, I only was recording the overheads so I know for sure that it was just the overheads. I have that R88 plugged into a Seventh Circle Audio Preamp, the T15. Keep in mind that the drums and cymbals are fairly well tuned, and cymbals are high end K cymbals. The room is a medium size room and has a really nice sound that gets into the overhead in a nice way. That mic is worth it. It's punchy, smooth top end, and makes it sound like your there in the room...but better. Check out my other videos with Flint Zeigler to see the R88 in action too. I think in "Late" we used just on side of it (mono) for a guitar cab (Blackface Princeton '65). For "On my Love" and "Feeling of Coming Home" it was used for vocal. For "Under the Jaw" and "Violent Red" it was used heavily in the mix for the room sound. Ryan

[@manuelgutierrez6280]

Hi, excellent video! Loved it. Quick question. It might be obvious but, when you divide the drum with the overhead, does it mean you are using a figure 8 pattern?

[@codykramer8834]

Are there any albums that you know of that use the ORTF technique? would love to here that in use

[@jussihilden]

You really deserve a lot more views. Awesome info. :) Spaced pair is the best for me (I usually record death metal, but it also fits perfectly to rock, pop, etc,..). And it is also good to think about the height of the overheads compared to room mic(s).

[@creativesoundlab]

Thanks! I'm just getting started with these videos and I've doubled my views from 60 days ago. It'll grow with time. Yeah spaced pair was my go-to method for years and years. I got some great sounds.

[@royglennie]

Hi Ryan, very informative video! I wonder if you (or anyone here) can explain to me a little bit about what you mean at 4:44 about 'smear' of the drum sound please? I'm listening on good headphones but not sure what smearing means really. Thanks!!

[@TurianoDrummer]

Just discovered you yesterday. Good job. Thanks for this.

[@creativesoundlab]

Mark Turiano Thanks!

[@AndrewBarracloughComposer]

Love your Videos, these are a massive help and very inspiring! Thank you!

[@creativesoundlab]

Andrew Barraclough Thanks, I'll keep making them then!

[@lukesuperflyjones]

WOW! This is really well done! Thank you for this!

[@creativesoundlab]

lukesuperflyjones Thanks so much!

[@spurts]

Pleased you mentioned that a little bit of phase isn't that bad. You're right, I like my music to have character and imperfections

[@KevinSparksatx]

Your channel is a great resource 👍

[@creativesoundlab]

Thanks!

[@VIADeth]

Hey, i really enjoy your weekly videos. You got an unique, more art-y style of explaining things. Though i got to say that this was not ORTF and ORTF has nothing to do with the distance of the human ears. It is coincidence that the capsule is almost the distance like the human ears. (capsule 17 cm / human ears 17,5 cm, which is average of course) The crucial part about ORTF next to the capsule distance is the 110° angle of the capsule, which face the opposite way and not the same, like shown in the video. anyway i don't want to be a jerk about it, just want to point it out. Cheers from Germany ! :)

[@creativesoundlab]

VIADeth Thanks for the kind words. I'll make sure to keep making them. Those mics look facing in, but they are side address. I'll have to check my resources of where I got the whole "resembles the human ear" bit, but thanks for the correction.

[@douglastlang4492]

drums sound great and a great series! hope this isn't a dumb question but as a newbee to home recording do you ever recommend testing for the sound you're going for and presetting you're EQ compression,etc before recording the drum track...thanks.

[@creativesoundlab]

+douglas t lang Yeah, I would act like you never plan to use EQ when recording your drum tracks. If you don't like the sound, adjust the mic. Part 3 explains exactly how to do that: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bH2Qh4iApalgj8k

[@chrisstixmartin]

Love the channel,love the content!

[@lewisticknor]

Thank you! Excellent

[@jordanvachal6852]

Snare at 4:24 is killer!!!!

[@creativesoundlab]

+Jordan Vachal Wow thanks!

[@petervoigtmann]

Is there a way to get the PDF for this episode somewhere? There's only one with reamping guitars showing up. Thanks for your great videos!

[@creativesoundlab]

+Peter Voigtmann So sorry for the trouble! I'm emailing out the guide now to everyone, or you can get it here: creativesoundlab.tv/overhead-microphones/

[@officalrichpagano]

Hi, excellent source. I dig all of your tutorials but have to add that Glyn Johns never used a measuring stick. I only bring this up because his particular overhead and behind the floor mic placement, beyond it being a total accident, was honed by using his ears to find the perfect place for (especially) the floor tom mic. Having said that, you are a pro and I enjoyed your video.

[@creativesoundlab]

rich pagano Yep, he's quoted in another video as calling measuring it out as "rubbish".

[@officalrichpagano]

creativesoundlab He really was about walking around the kit while the drummer was playing and putting the mics at the sweet spots. Geoff Emerick was the with the same thinking. I once asked Geoff why he miced the lower tom heads on some of the tracks on Abbey Road. His response, "that's where the best tone was with how Ringo tuned the drum." He put his hear all over the drum and dug that area the best. My beef is that too many young engineers don't use their ears before placing the microphones.

[@creativesoundlab]

rich pagano That's some sage advice! Thanks for raising those points.

[@kevinzimmerman557]

Would the angles and distances of the overhead mic need adjusted slightly if your using a small diaphragm like a pencil mic apposed to a medium or large diaphragms mic like you are using to accomplish the same sound or should the method work as well?

[@karanbraria93]

hey man ! love your videos , can you just tell me how did you pan the mics in the glyn john method ? i always seem to get confused about the panning thing on that particular method. please give some insight on the panning of the overheads in the glyn john method and your thoughts on it too . thanks alot :)

[@creativesoundlab]

+Karan Braria Glyn Johns said he doesn't pan too hard. I personally pan about half way out.

[@christianpaeznegron]

can i use a standard boom mic stand for drum overheads or it has to go higher?? thanks

[@peddlebreaker]

Hey +creativesoundlab, thanks again for sharing an amazing video. I noticed that in one of your latest videos you used a mono ribbon (Rode) mic. Where would you suggest placing the mono ribbon? Would it be directly in the perceived centre of the drum kit? Also, I have tried downloading the PDF for this but it takes me to a pdf containing info about guitar re-amping? Thanks again.

[@codykramer8834]

Are there any producers or albums that you know of that use the ORTF technique? I would love to here that in use. That was definitely my favorite.

[@MrMetalclay]

I don't know if you have discussed or covered the infront of the kit overhead placement in another video or not. I've seen it being used in other videos but nothing has really been said about it, maybe it's good for lower ceilings or to get a better stereo image of the cymbals/high hat. I'm not really sure what it's reference name is but I've seen XY and ortf being used.

[@legendleague444]

i learn so much

[@TheMaxisExtreme]

Hey Ryan, Great video, implemented a lot of what you taught into my sessions and it instantly improved my recordings! One question: What's your opinion on using different mics for stereo overheads? Any advantage/disadvantage or special techniques you know of or have tried yourself?

[@creativesoundlab]

It’s a pain and if I had to I would use mid side technique or even mono overhead but stereo room.

[@douglastlang4492]

another question came to mind...in your opinion which is more important...finely tuned drums or top of the line drum mics and EQ'ing?

[@creativesoundlab]

+douglas t lang I would say the tuning is more important. If your toms sound like they are sitting on the floor, even through they are not....then that's pretty bad, and without any fundamental low end, it's hard to bring them back to life. So so much is in the tuning, and the quality of the cymbals. That could be the week link in the chain, but provided that they decent drums, then it's all about technique. I've made great recordings of drums that others seemed to be impressed with, and I didn't have that great of stuff to set up on the kit. Tuning and technique.

[@danielsilberman3657]

Love your videos! I have a question for you though, I just got my R88 and am wondering what your best success is "generally speaking" for placement over the kit for imaging? More parcticularly where do you "normally" center the microphone to get the snare and kick in the center. Do you line up the middle of snare for where to line up the middle of the R88? or do you center it with the area between the kick and snare? or neither?

[@creativesoundlab]

+Daniel Silberman For the R88 I usually look at the logo and point it to the snare. It's very sensitive to slight adjustments in it's pointing. I try to then have the angle of the microphone stand come in at an angle in such a way that the center of the kick shell is under the boom arm. Of coarse the attack of the drum may sound louder coming out the back, so this means that the floor tom side of the mic will have a little more attack, but the low end should be fairly well centered.

[@danielsilberman3657]

+creativesoundlab Thanks for your advice!

[@audioarteeacustica9339]

Love all your videos, thanks so much... but mics faces outwards on NOS and ORTF (in fact, on every near coincident scheme).

[@creativesoundlab]

Did I miss something perhaps? Those mics are side address and look out

[@audioarteeacustica9339]

Oops, sorry, you're right... my bad!

[@thedankel1994]

Great video man thanks for the tips.

[@creativesoundlab]

Sure thing!

[@danvranic2306]

Hey man. Can you elaborate on the McTear method?

[@creativesoundlab]

Daniel Vranic Yes, think Decca Tree for drum overheads. Super cool....Brian and his Weathervane crew published a guide about it too in which I helped him edit it...weathervanemusic.bigcartel.com/product/the-weathervane-overhead-mic-technique

[@studiotest1]

Hi Ryan! Thanks for all you do and the knowledge you share! May I ask what snare drum you are using for this video and what type of drumhead is on the batter side of the snare? It sounds just phenomenal, thank you!

[@creativesoundlab]

Yeah the black snare is a premiere Olympic snare. Mohagany, 1980s I think. Got it for free. Remo ambassador head on top with a half moongel.

[@rickblackers88]

Hi,i hear overheads in stereo but just see one mic in the video.Where is the other mic that brings the ride cymbal so clear at my left monitor?

[@creativesoundlab]

+Ricardo Barbosa That mic is a stereo mic, the AEA R88. It clearly gives a visual of what's left and what's right

[@rickblackers88]

+creativesoundlab Thanx for the answer,is there any popular stereo mic low buget in the market?Very interesting!!Congrats for the video.

[@creativesoundlab]

+Ricardo Barbosa Not that I know of for Ribbon, but for condenser you have the Rode NT4. You also have the AT4050ST. Keep in mind it's two mics so they are hard to find for the price of a single mic in the budget category.

[@allmetaliswelcome]

do you apply centering the kick/snare to spaced pair? in the video you measure the distance to the mics from the center of the snare, but this would throw your kick off wouldn't it?

[@creativesoundlab]

Luuk Meijwaard Yeah, it would throw off the kick. You can lessen the effect by splitting the kit diagonally but it makes for some weird looking placements where the one mic that is by the hi tom is almost in front of the kit. centered both kick and snare would pretty much be what you get with the Recorderman method.

[@fog152]

man that was awesome!

[@creativesoundlab]

fog152 Thanks! I'll keep making more!

[@Llink4n]

Thank you man it helps!

[@CANALDOSAXOFONISTA]

Muito bom cara. Parabéns!

[@creativesoundlab]

+thisaxlevy Thanks

[@studioguy1874]

spot on

[@creativesoundlab]

Thanks!

[@infinaneek]

great thank you!

[@sejuyz]

Ryan, I´m an absolute fan of your videos. Is there a chance you can hear and comment a recording of mine ? I´d be basically trying to emulate your drum overhead lesson. I can´t get my toms to sound good... what I did find out though is that by making the bottom heads (pretty) tight, it kind gives them a rounder and nicer sound...still... it sounds very poor. My gear is good so I guess the problem is me.

[@creativesoundlab]

+testing 123 Yeah, tuning can be a lot of the drum sound. I usually have the bottom head about a major 3'rd higher than the top head. If the top/batter head is a C, then bottom would be a E. I really dig the sounds you have going on in this video of yours: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5TOgnt6nNWgl7M

[@sejuyz]

Thanks for the reply. I tune by what my ears perceive as being a "good" sound. I´m afraid I´m tone deaf (lol) and can´t identify intervals, nonetheless, I´ll keep trying. Whenever I have something new I´ll make sure to have it fwd to you.

[@AudioEcstasyProd]

Big fan of the M179 here!

[@creativesoundlab]

Yeah, I'm going to do a video about the m179 soon.

[@murtinha]

Very nice videos man, got a subrscriber here! Let me ask you something, I'm gonna get my degree in electrical engineering this year but I'd like to work with audio. The problem is I have 0 knowledge about it and I think when a guy decides that hes gonna work with audio the majority of them already know a lotta stuff. I was thinking of taking an extra course outside of the country, I live in Brazil. Do you think its possible for me to be a good professional ?

[@creativesoundlab]

Eric Liborio I think that knowing how to fix electronics is a huge advantage if you want to get in to a studio for a job. All studios have stuff that is broken and they are always looking for some techs. From there you can watch and learn. I think working with audio requires a few key skills, but most importantly you want to understand music and instruments. If you don't already play an instrument, you should, and this will serve as a guide for how things should sound when you record. You'll know what sounds "right" and what doesn't. This is the reason why I was able to learn how to record drums first, out of any instrument, which is one of the most challenging to learn for most. I knew a bass player that was amazing at bass guitar tones, but his drum sounds were pretty rough. This meant that the recording sounded rough as drums can make or break the perceived quality of the recording.

[@murtinha]

I already play guitar but I've always wanted to play drums. I understand about eletronics but not enough to fix stuff, my course was more focused in the other half of the electrical engineering. I'd like to work in a studio, as a producer but I dont think I have the necessary skills to do it. But anyways thanks man!! :D

[@creativesoundlab]

Eric Liborio I think you can gain those skills easily. If you already play guitar and you "get" music and how it works and feels, then that is a big part of it. You might be interested in the class that I teach about producing and engineering: creativesoundlab.tv/recording-school/

[@abeldork]

man, thanks a lot. good stuff.

[@creativesoundlab]

Thanks!

[@louderthangod]

I'm surprised how wide that floor tom sounds with just the stereo mic. I really dislike hearing the floor tom panned so far over, it sounds really unnatural compared to being in a room and facing the drums but the 88 is more sensitive to spread than I would have thought.

[@creativesoundlab]

Interesting point. Yeah, I have to often make slight adjustments to the mic to get the snare down the middle. Still the R88 is the Blumlein king of all the overheads I think.

[@Gingerbearded]

educational, i learned something

[@peter9314]

Do you record the overheads in mono or stereo?

[@creativesoundlab]

Stereo, hence the whole drawing the line down the kit for the stereo image.

[@GoldenNuggetRec]

do i see an old silvertone amp back there?

[@creativesoundlab]

+Golden Nugget Recordings Yeah it's a '73 silverface champ on the shelf

[@GoldenNuggetRec]

actually i was talking about the lafayette la75 which looks just like my old silvertone 1432. i later saw in the live in-studio video what it really was. very similar not sure which is a clone of which but both are cool!

[@creativesoundlab]

+Golden Nugget Recordings Oh yes, the Lafayette! Sorry to misread. One of my best amps, and no one cares about them. Never had my hands on a Silvertone 1432. The Dinelectro that I have is similar. I've used both in similar songs.

[@GoldenNuggetRec]

yeah the one i had was pretty cool and in pretty decent shape too. i just sold it a couple weeks ago for like $300. they have a tremelo channel and are supposed to have a footswitch and whatnot. i think theyre sometime from 1959-1961 or something. but alas, it wasnt really that useful for me and my playing so i figured it was better off in somebody elses hands. i used the money towards a sunn beta rig anyway so it all worked out.

[@creativesoundlab]

+Golden Nugget Recordings Sweet dude. Hey what was that tremolo like? Mine doesn't work, and if it's a nice trem then I might get it fixed.

[@TheOompahRoundabout]

Great vid

[@creativesoundlab]

+TheOompahRoundabout Thanks!

[@NeZversSounds]

What OH mic is that?

[@creativesoundlab]

NeZversTutorials Or are you refering to the silver ones? Those are CAD m179s

[@NeZversSounds]

creativesoundlab AEA R88. Searched google for Blumlein and after a while spotted it. And was bit down because for me it's really pricey (I know it's worth it). Is there some similar cheaper versions?

[@creativesoundlab]

NeZversTutorials Yeah def worth it. It's one of those mics that I use every single day I'm recording. The R84 is the mono version and in some ways more versatile because it's not so big when you want to put it on a guitar cab. Royer's version might be more transparent sounding/flatter, not sure, but it's a $1000 more than the R88. I've never had experience with the Cascade X-15 before but I see it's a stereo ribbon.

[@NealSchmittaudio]

right!

[@creativesoundlab]

+Neal Schmitt Thank you

[@alanduncan1980]

Good sound at the source is half the battle.

[@libanx8248]

space pair, the kick can never at the center

[@dw13ronro]

Man, didn't know Vinnie Paul was into groove at all.

[@creativesoundlab]

Hahaha nice!

[@spurts]

Nice 20" Crash of Doom there! Anyone want one, I'm selling mine. Lovely cymbal and perfect but it's just too big for my needs

[@jorgepeterbarton]

I was wondering why spaced pairs are measured with a lead. Does it improve phase coherance, because i thought it was mainly for that. Or is it just to centre, because I perhaps want to try some uncentred snare, I like doing that with the close mics already.