DSP room correction

[@GeneA.69]

First of all, great video as always sir. I always value your opinion and I’m constantly learning new things by coming here. After watching the video and reading all the comments I can say this… experiment with both and find what sounds nicest to you personally. This video and these comments have really got me thinking I want to experiment much more to see how it changes my listening experience but in the end it’s all a lot finding that sweet spot that we all love to hear! I think we all are chasing the same thing but might find different paths to getting there and that’s a wonderful thing, not bad. This hobby has never been a one size fits all experience 😄 Happy listening to All 😁👍

[@larryh9525]

Hi Paul, I started working with room correction software about a decade ago and found it fantastic. I first started with Yamaha's YAPO (good) then moved on to Anthem's ARC (much better). For me, 80/20 works. 🙂

[@stefanblutke8053]

Hey Larry, and if its just for the sake of experience: try the RoomPerfect of Lyngdorf systems from Denmark. You may also find it on expensive Macintosh amps too. I sold my 12K preamp/poweramp system which was very high end. And even my two REL subs I had were not necessary anymore. Look for the TDAI 3400 from Lyngdorf. 2x400 watts on 4ohm integrated amp. It comes with a measure mic incl. stand . I’ve been encouraged to test it and refused it because I didn’t believe in DSP. The entire concept is overwhelming. I really loved my former system, But now I only have ONE box for everything. Sure I don’t have a turn table running but even with that I‘d think it worth a shot. I also tried DIRAC room correction but it didn’t come close to RoomPerfect, because DIRAC tries to level the frequency curve as RoomPerfect tries to „understand“ how your room sounds like. So I bought a TDAI 3400 and tested it for two weeks knowing that I then would need to sell my old system to gain the money for the 6K price of the Lyngdorf. Best decision I ever made regarding hifi electronics.

[@Gez492]

@@stefanblutke8053 Respectfully, how can DSP compensate for losing two REL's? DSP doesn't pressurize a room or allow speakers to produce frequencies that they are not designed to reach. If you were having issues with sub bass then set up, placement and careful integration with your speaker generally is the answer, or perhaps your room speaker combination doesn't allow for more than one sub, although stereo pairs are generally better. The strengths of using good sub woofers optimally placed and set up with care have benificial effects way beyond just producing lower frequencies that your main speakers cannot. I am puzzled could you explain? As far as I can establish, for the most part, DSP in the home HIFI world is used to digitally compensate for compromised or difficult room accoustics, where the listener cannot or doesn't choose to treat the room. Surely we need to explain DSP in this domain is simply a more precise, automatic multiband graphic equalizer with memory function and nothing more; what it does is not magic and can have deleterious effects as well as benefits. It partly overcomes room issues by predominently suppressing frequencies that are troublesome in a given environment . Its convenient and has its place but careful set up and room treatment can be more effective without more processing of the signal, which I think we all agree is more desirable and whilst I don't agree with all that Paul says, despite his superiority of experience as opposed to mine but on this he is in my view, correct. The best way where ever possible is to treat the room not the signal.

[@julianklietz6558]

Living in a small room speakers close to the walls without the possibility of much if any room treatment dsp has greatly helped me achive a sound I enjoy, mostly under 200hz.

[@sudd3660]

dsp does wonders in a small room, but i still fitted 6" think panels in here. its takes a lot of space for sure.

[@AmazonasBiotop]

That is NOT a issue to go digital. It is actually a ISSUE (sound quality wise) to not go digital with LPs. 🎉 Remember that the BENEFITS of what DSP can bring is FAR greater than staying in the analog domain and loose out in total sound quality improvements.🎉 And that is not a real controversy or rubbing anyway in the wrong way that Paul said. Of course you should set up speakers and sound treatment as optimal and in the best way as Paul said. But THEN we continue to improve from that starting point with help of DSP! And go beyond the performance envelope that Paul could ever achieve.😅 So it is not either or..😂

[@tothemax324]

Without some room treatment, room correction will have next to no control over sounds that have already left the loudspeaker. 300Hz and 4kHz region is the juice, treat it like it is. Thanks Paul 100%.

[@andrewleonhardt1221]

DSP is essential in car audio for many reasons, but it still can't correct for nulls. Setup here is equally important.

[@baruchdor]

I would be happy to clarify that it is possible to do the measurements using dsp, and even magic beans and then use the results (in terms of the frequency range only) and use an analog equalizer instead 🙏🏻

[@phfen]

To me, better a smart (surely imperfect) DSP well set than ugly physical room treatment. And the sound quality improvement gained with DSP even on a phono input going through ADC then DAC will be better then the loss of sound quality due to those conversions. I have a TDAI-1120 amp and it is simple to use with phenomenal improvements even on phono input !

[@MI_MattHarrell]

It's not just that it's digital, but also that the DSP device may not have the highest quality DAC. I don't want my pretty high quality 2-channel stereo music sources, digital or analog, going through a mediocre DAC in my Marantz AV8805. I worked hard on the room issues and speaker placement and was able to have my music go through the "Pure Direct" mode in that AV8805, and it sounds significantly better, too.

[@stephens2r338]

When it comes to intergrating subs into the system I wish more manufacturers DSP subs would mesure the room at the listning possition without the sub first so that it can see what its working with. Then add where its needed and not where its not. This is very helpfull when you have full range speakers.

[@martinlindberg1983]

I am with you. Do not add an DSP in the chain in a revealing system because you will mostly degrade the overall sound, BUT you can add a DSP to the subwoofer with great result. Rule of thumbs - Room treatment and setup (both speaker and LP position) first... There are no short cuts for a true Hifi experience :)

[@Jorge-Fernandez-Lopez]

You might have taken a short cut. Assuming a digital source, DSP on subs is fine if the delay isn't excessive. However, some rooms will still have one or two room modes resonances because main speakers (also small bookshelf speakers) will also play "flat and loud enough" these frequencies (example: 70 Hz, 130 Hz). Mathematics and experience proves that some resonances (70 Hz example) can't realistically be solved with porous absorbers, although some vendors claim quite the opposite. I equalize my files or compact discs once, without adding any live DSP component in the chain; not very practical but it works.

[@johndaddabbo9383]

Question please: in a no-DSP on the Mains setup [only on the Sub(s)], what method are you utilizing for the Time-aligned of Mains to Sub(s)? Thank you.

[@Natan9000]

Dsp room correction is perfect for active systems. It’s a must if u ask me. I wish KEF had it. Of course placement comes first but we can’t all make our living “acoustically right” or treat it a lot.. 😅

[@skip1835]

Doesn't rub me the wrong way - reassuring to understand and be on the same page as Paul.

[@deanrantala]

Not sure why many don't talk about this specifically much but. What about what I do? Pure analog all the way across the board for 80hz on up. 80 on down, I often like to add DSP (where the analog-digital-analog conversion literally can not be perceived). I typically employ hand built analog 24db Linkwitz Riley filters (thanks, Elliot Sound Products!) just after my pre amp. From there, I will often employ MiniDSP to the low channel - keeping my 80- up channel pure analog.

[@gizmobowen]

Whew, dodged a bullet on that one. I love my miniDSP that I've tweaked to optimize my sub. I was sure Paul wasn't going to make me feel guilty about that and want to take it out. Glad I didn't apply it to the rest of my system.

[@richardramorino3319]

I find Dirac indispensable for my 2 channel system. I only use it for the low end. It make subwoofer integration magically easy because it even takes timing into account. I wouldn't buy a system without it.

[@guystpierrecomposer]

Some people still argue that analog is better than digital for recording… am I wrong or Paul don’t think so? Octave record is all digital recording. So for him, the purest recorded signal is digital. As for dsp room correction, almost all recording studio use it (with physical room treatment). Personally, I love DSP room correction because in my professional recording studio and in my Atmos home cinema it just sound better and more accurate! The last 10% of room treatment for the bass in my studio would add 90% in price! Putting that money in good quality speakers is WAY better idea in my opinion. In my treated studio, the peaks and valleys to adjust with dsp is less then 6db… not exactly “huge”

[@Gez492]

I think its fair to say DSP in a studio can be a world away from reproducing music on a home hifi in an accousitcally compromised room. Just to add that in using DSP, studios can achieve a more controlled and precise sound environment, which can help produce higher-quality recordings. However, it’s important that these corrections are tailored to the specific studio environment to avoid issues when the audio is played back on different systems. Also DSP in studios includes reverb and echo reduction/Noise reduction/ delay compression to name a few. This is not what home hifi DSP does. I am an anlogue guy I love my vinyl but I also listen via streaming and CD I think Paul using high resolution DSD to capture most all the nuances of music which afterall is an anlalogue waveform is a good way forward but what I have noticed on my mid high end home system when listening to DSD recordings mastered to vinyl is that they are a more enjoyable listen than the raw DSD file. This cannot be I ask myself? but its true and may have something to with 'psychoacoustics' As an ex Sony engineer, I worked on HD broadcast systems and 8k Picture reproduction, we used to build and test digital cinema projectors capable of 8k and more resolution. What we found was, often we were overwhelmed with detail and became fatigued by what we percieved to be the brain trying to constantly process the huge detail in the picture. I am no expert in the attributes of sound but I think its analagous with what we found with highly detailed visual cues, that's what goes on in very high resolution music files like DSD (s Sony Invention) at 256 /512 etc..is just too much for our auditory/brain systems, so we either don't want to listen anymore or we shut it out. I have two systems one solid state and another All vacuum tubes and there are times when valves (as we correctly refer to them in the UK) is the only way I want to listen and other times when a CD grabs my attention. Humans are strange and complex creatures, by comparison Electronics is simple!

[@guystpierrecomposer]

@@Gez492 I would be very curious to hear a hi-res digital recording (let say DSD) of a vinyl and compare it with the actual vinyl on the same hi end audio system… I’m pretty sure it would be undistinguishable… the vinyl sound is an “effect” that I’m sure lots of people can prefer over the more true digital recording.

[@Sonus1002]

@@guystpierrecomposer I did that at 192/24 on my system. I can A/B it on my integrated on the fly with the remote control. And no, it's not transparent. Very close but there are high frequency artifacts. For fun I also converted the file to 48/16 and back to 192/24 and compared that to the first file. The difference was smaller. It seems it's not so much about the resolution than the conversion step itself.

[@guystpierrecomposer]

@@Sonus1002 interesting…what is the ADC and the recording chain? You know I’m sure that 95% of original modern recordings like Deutsche grammophon’s for exemple are made in PCM with very high end ADC? It is simply impossible that a transfer to vinyl would be more accurate than the digital file.

[@Sonus1002]

@@guystpierrecomposer Of course you'll get better and better performance once you throw a ton of money at it. But if digital was transparent there would be no need for it since it's already perfect. And speaking of DG, I recommend you compare "the original source" vinyl series from Deutsche Grammophon to their current digital releases. You'll kick yourself in the b***-

[@edasm4113]

Wasn't that Gayle Sanders Eikon concept? Soup-to-nuts stereo system built to a price?

[@D1N02]

I have a valley at 50hz in my room at the sitting position. Will i not just be moving it to 40 or 60 when moving my subs or speakers?

[@Peter56Persson]

Great video, thanks!

[@random_eng]

There's a lot of reasons why certain things can't be fixed. imagine reflections off a glass wall. they are boosting certain frequencies significantly. well, the room correction could flatten that, turn that down. but you still have a certain significant portion of that sound energy hitting your ears as a reflection from the glass, from a different angle, and a bit different in phase, so you can make it flat but, that's not going to image as well as an ideal room right? not to mention the glass might vibrate and add some THD etc too that's still there. Low frequencies different story. Not directional. Hard too boost, easy to turn down. So do the latter.

[@EricBrettJones]

What is the keyboard on the couch next to you please Paul?

[@PSA78]

I feel that people are thinking about DSP in the wrong way, it's not the first place to try and fix issues in the frequency response, it's close to the last. I do believe it has a good place when used in fully active speakers, but even there you have to treat it with respect. My system runs through DSP and is fully active (1 amplifier channel per driver), and it actually doesn't sound better trying to iron out the frequency response. My guess is that you're pushing energy into the driver to correct a dip (well, you lower everything around it) so you're asking it to do something it doesn't necessarily like (due to mechanical design) possibly creating intermodular distortion. As DA chips get better and better I'm sure we'll see more and more active HiFi speakers, you can keep the signal digital to the very end which can be cheaper than all the passive components today (including paying for a lot more amplifier channels).

[@TheVeganVicar]

Coincidentally, I just ordered a pair of DSP earphones. 😮

[@cengeb]

Xilica XP-4080 And the Legacy Wavelet DSP included with the great speakers, it's 2024, join it. Wavelet is pre amp, DSP correction in one. and active loudspeakers, join modern speaker technology

[@Oystein87]

DSP is mostly more useful in surround setups etc

[@LuxAudio389]

If you own a high end DAC isn't it getting bypassed for the cheaper DAC in the DSP? 🤦

[@barneyrubble9309]

Go listen to a Steinway lyngdorf system and then tell me dsp correction doesn't work. As always, do what you can realistically to treat the room and positioning of speakers but after that use dsp. Also, you can still hear the difference between vinyl and cd even after digitization. It was THE game changer for me.

[@glenncurry3041]

DSPing for low end bumps is not as good as you indicate compared to suck outs. Bumps are often caused by the speakers. Often because of doubling, where the woofer cone breaks up and starts producing energy at harmonics, often the 2nd. So a woofer breaking up with a 30hz signal is also producing 60hz. But all the test mic hears is sound pressure. So you do something to absorb the extra 60hz. But that just reduces the actual 60hz signals and does nothing to solve the 30hz problem.

[@JSSTUDIO-wr2jq]

🙂👍

[@janetyer7147]

Paul, in looking at your portable recording DAW, I think that a nice carry handle on top would be a useful enhancement. Take a look at Penn-Elcom part no H1008B/W for a little under $10 plus shipping.

[@janetyer7147]

On closer look, what I was calling a portable recording DAW might be an external PCIe enclosure? Not sure.

[@ford1546]

DSP. is a nice thing to use to correct the frequency of the speaker if the speaker has frequency problems. But not always so good at correcting problems caused by the room itself. It is not always so easy to find good speakers with good sound without being extra expensive. You get a disappointingly LITTLE speaker for the money!

[@glenncurry3041]

If you DSP everything to correct for low end you destroy everything. If you only DSP to the sub, you get the latency delay that can not be corrected for.

[@stottpie]

lol no

[@MykeHawke-r9r]

When my ex-wife, minus the x at the time, would point that my mess I would then point at the computer and say do you like that balance over there? When you pull it up in between your Facebook binges? Then I would ask a little bit of slack on what it's supposed to be " my room " .. there are many reasons she's an ex, my attitude is most likely not the least of which lol.

[@tonezoneuk]

Audiophiles are like werewolves, once bitten there's no going back. I've just treated myself to Dynaudio Evoke 20, and I can for sure say I've just been bitten and I'm hearing things in music I've never heard before with my new ware wolf ears. I'm spending most of my days going through my music collection now and guess what, I'm hearing the effects of my room. DOH. I'm shifting the speakers back and forth but I have a wife who complains about the speakers looking wonky or too far forward. I really am trying to bite her and turn her werewolf but there's too much resistance. Now I crave to update my Eversolo A6 with an external DAC, and that would mean an updated Amp, of course. Where am I going to end up with this. Broke, probably. I was considering a DSP system, but like you said, the bass nulls are not fixable. Plus, why would I spend thousands on a great DAC, only to have the sound converted back to digital, and back again to analogue. Surely, I would not be listening to the DAC any more, but to the DSP. Have a great day.

[@JonAnderhub]

Well that was about the lamest way of trying to dismiss something that can actually improve the sound of a great system. In a perfect world we would all have anechoic chambers in which we would sit all alone and listen to the very limited music that would make our stereo system sound perfect but because most of us live in the real world we need ways of addressing, not only room anomalies, but our own hearing deficiencies as well. This is why modern DSP can help. There's nothing worse than listening to a purely analog signal chain that is being destroyed by a less than perfect listening environment just to bean elitist. Paul is correct about addressing room anomalies first before applying any kind of DSP, but if you follow all of Paul"s advice he will have you sitting right in the middle of one of those bass peaks he talks about which, while providing more bass, will cause the bass to be muddy and lose definition because you are sitting in a combination of direct and phase shifted and delayed reflected bass. DSP can help with this because DSP IS NOT just frequency balancing but also frequency specific time delay. Something an ordinary stereo system can not provide.

[@dicmccoy]

Phono 😂 yeah, no thanks. Dirac is the way, even for 2 channel.

[@stottpie]

Imagine thinking room treatment is better to DSP lmao

[@dougdavis8986]

Says the guy that puts pin-up girls on his site.

[@bernardodon7501]

Best room treatment? Books.... hundreds..... on bookshelfs. But not anything. Literature, not kitsch. And your brain will get the best results from paper, from vinyl, from streaming. Or is there anyone who believes in panels more than Hemingway ;-)

[@OG2978-g7x]

Acoustic treatment is a b**ch, you need a lot of panels to make a difference, it is hard to get the WAF right and it is an added cost that doesn't conduct current. What's the fun in that. But it makes a big difference especially in resonating rooms. If you can place acoustic treatment and can play around with sub positioning than you are in better shape then most of the home audio crowd. The rest get a lot from ADVANCED room correction, not a 4 band PEQ. The likes of Audiolense or Dirac can do wonders to the sound including phase and time alignment.

[@xaviermontalban717]

I would say its a bitch if you also want it to look good. That being said, room treatment can make a huge difference

[@bayard1332]

Spend 10s of thousands on all the best gear you can and at the last moment take your very expensive signal and run it through a $200 crappy sounding DSP… every bit as insulting to the sonic result as all the fancy speakers that use crappy cheap parts in the crossover. Proper acoustic treatments can be done for way less than all that fancy electronics cost and can be done in a visually non offensive manner. Maybe your wives who complain would actually change their assessment if/when they heard the actual sonic results of a properly treated room.

[@sudd3660]

acoustic treatment is number one, does way more than only the audio sound from your hifi :) and i treat my dps as a hifi gear, my amp cost 2000 so i spent 2000 on my dsp, and my dsp has no dac in it. i use normal hifi separate dac's for that job.

[@cengeb]

Majority of obsolete rcords are made now from digital transfers. DSP is 21st century, why PS doesn't have it on such pricey stuff is showing you guys are out of touch

[@dougdavis8986]

What are 'obsolete' records?

[@cengeb]

@@dougdavis8986 LPs, 33 /1/3 medium of using a diamond running through a piece of plastic. It's 2024, join it

[@stefanblutke8053]

Pauls KZbin canal here is mainly for advertisement for his company and his products. Very well done and very clever though out. I was inspired by some of his remarks and explanations especially about speaker placement and even bough his stereo book. What I don’t like about his presentation is that he sometimes get deliberately and/or intentionally into places which are not of his expertise. He never could go for DSP, advice it or even paise it. Because he has as much as he can to sell BHK 600 and expensive preamps and even more expensive power regen‘s. It’s his business and he needs to pay his employees. But nevertheless I’m of the opinion that he should stay out of some topics. For his own good not to lose credibility by denigrating other things but perhaps better avoid some topics.

[@tedhersh9095]

Paul has earned the right to express his opinion on anything audio related. He’s forgotten more about audio than you and I will ever know.

[@stefanblutke8053]

@@tedhersh9095 Ted, well that's not the point here. Surely he is an expert. As I said: I was inspired by some of his things and bought his book + cd. Does that mean he is an expert in EVERYTHING related to hifi audio??? He's not my Guru... BTW expressing your opinion if a group of people see you as an expert or leader, should be executed with extra care, don't you think? I'm a high school teacher. Shall I express my political opinion in front of my class rooms? Certainly not. In fact is forbidden by the government to act as a teacher like this. Before you now say: this is different or not comparable to our topic here: no, its exactly like this... PS: Even if I'm a skilled Mathe teacher : sometimes students ask me question I cannot answer . A bad teacher pushes the student back and tries to hide . I on the contrary say that cannot answer it yet but will go and find one for the students. And if I would deliberately bing up lets say geometry (not my strength) and students ask me questions over and over and I pretend to know the answers by talking bullshit - what a teacher am I ?

[@tedhersh9095]

@@stefanblutke8053 comparing someone who is paid to educate children to Paul on his KZbin videos is apples to oranges.

[@stefanblutke8053]

@@tedhersh9095 I knew you would say that. Therefore I wrote my answer tom that in my former reaction... PS: Interesting that you see me as a "paid person" rather than a pedagogic person whose responsibility is not to interfere into the personal minds of young human beings ... Besides: isn't Paul the much higher paid person than me???

[@tedhersh9095]

@@stefanblutke8053 you are paid with government funds to educate children. Paul runs an audio manufacturing company. I shouldn’t have to point out the difference between these two.