Dude Fire - Ted Putnam with MTDC

Ted Putnam with the Missoula Technology and Development Center (MTDC) describing fire shelter and personal protective equipment impacts on the June 26, 1990 Dude fire.

[@benheatherkrieger79]

This was near my home town of Payson, AZ. I grew up hunting this very woods as it was once a beautiful stand if old growth timber. I've paid my respects at the fire fighter memorial many times. I can't imagine the absolute hell they went through before finally losing their lives! That fire was sketchy as hell and tended to have a mind of it's own, since it started in a very dangerous place!

[@networkbike543]

This is hard core video of their final moments.

[@thomthumbe]

Total respect for firefighters. They risk it all to save everyone else.

[@cassandrahowell8055]

Although the shelters can't tolerate direct flames....if FF's have a somewhat cleared out deployment site they can and have survived...one would think with all of our technology today that we would have a better alternative for our brave men. Congress should appropriate a yearly fund for the sole purpose of shelter research and testing. Obiviously the fires are only going to get worse each year.

[@FDSixtyNine]

Congress will only appropriate funds for their donors and their pockets.

[@XAlpineSuptDN]

They actually do fund fire shelter research on an annual basis. As well as fire behavior research and other projects for FF safety. Some of the folks who deployed in the same area did survive whereas others got hit with microbursts of heat or maybe they were hit by superheated gases before they got in their shelter and thus damaged airways.

[@XAlpineSuptDN]

So after storm king mountain the brother of one of the Smokejumpers that was killed started researching fire shelters and working with NASA to use some space age materials to build an improved shelter Storm King technologies and he makes vehicle fire blankets for dozers and engines. He did come up with a prototype and it was in the running for the new generation gov’t shelter contract. His original prototype protected really well against direct flame contact but did not protect against radiant heat transfer another major factor when building a fire shelter since more heat is transferred via radiation (straight line heat transfer). His final prototype did also protect from radiant heat transfer but for whatever reason his shelter design was not selected. Remember there is 3 types of heat transfer Conduction (flame contact), Radiant (straight line - like feeling the warmth from a campfire) and Convective - the heat that travels as gases like that heat you feel when you hold your hand above a candle. The main thing you are protecting is your lungs and airways in an entrapment so all 3 types of heat can be deadly but its more likely to be affected by radiant and convective energy from a fire thus why Safety Zone standards are written the way they are. Thus the reflective shell of the shelter to help deflect radiant energy. The shelter provides a bubble of breathable air inside while allowing the temperature inside it to slowly raise. You want to be laying flat on the ground since the temperatures are much less at ground level. And the key is still to remove fuels that would cause direct flame contact. The Perryville crew was on a small single blade dozer line in heavy timber with heavy brush understory and they didn’t have time to clear an area big enough. Yet some people did luck out and survived near others who died. Makes me wonder if some were cuaght outside their shelter and hit by superheated gases prior to getting in their shelter thus damaging their airways while others were able to get in them immediately. Hard to say not knowing. But then again this was June 26, 1990 and Storm King Mtn was 1994 when the push for a new shelter began.

[@JH-kn6rt]

Pros and cons are opposites. That is why Congress is the opposite of progress...

[@pearlobrien2274]

Thank you sharing this video. Fire shelters need to be so much better They only give false hope at this time.

[@sir.willthur5428]

I feel like the severity of what could happen to a Wildland fire fighter is highly downplayed.

[@chuckhoward3626]

Interesting look at what took place. A fire shelter is only good for a flashover in a deployment site that will see radiated heat - they won't help in convective heat for any sustained length of time at all. They got caught in a blast furnace.

[@skitzochik]

this is so horrifying i will admit i cried watching this. i keep thinking about the blood curdling screams heard from these people must have been so very disturbing. God rest their souls.

[@EPICFAILKING1]

It's awful, I'm glad you haven't seen that one video from Argentina. a volunteer firefighter with a GoPro/ mobile device recorded his crews death. Now that's some real insight into what this looks like from the ground, and they didn't have ground sheets.

[@passive-aggressiveleah8343]

@@EPICFAILKING1 do you have a link? I'm doing a portfolio of fatalities that happened over the last year's.

[@thomasquintana4438]

I actually got to work with a survivor of the Dude fire fatality, a lady.

[@hopbup7401]

Fire shelters are only good in the black or large cleared area. Otherwise bringing a knife to a gun fight.

dope!

[@Jack-oz4bf]

Do you know why that pack was not burned at all during this fatality incident when the flames killed these 6 firefighters? because the body was laying on top of the pack and the pack was against the ground meaning the person rolled over or fell on their back and died facing up. This is a horrible tragedy we need to make better fire shelters.

[@mrbear8771]

Jack I agree....I just watched this movie last night. “Only the brave” and was thinking of ways to make a fire shelter better.

[@widgeonslayer]

@@mrbear8771 pretty sure these were the older shelters.

[@jerryjerrylahngenhairy4724]

@@widgeonslayer havent changed much

[@selinallano9147]

@@mrbear8771 same here. I even made a mock shelter

[@XAlpineSuptDN]

I think because where they deployed because they were cut off they took a huge heat impact and the pack may have been in the shelter where it can take a bigger heat impact that a person breathing superheated gases. The deployment sight is at the confluence of two drainages and I surmise because I was there that the fire was driven by the downdrafts from a collapsing column and funneled to right where they were. Plus the old growth overstory with a brush understory was crowning and running. Pretty scary to think about. I don’t think there are many materials known to man right now that would have survived that unlucky inferno.

[@Charlie96204]

Why would someone discard their gloves? Aren’t they protective?

[@penguin12902]

Trying to rip open the fire shelter packaging propbably.

[@XAlpineSuptDN]

Could be that or could be that they took them off to open the packaging or because a lot of FF’s work with their gloves off and have them on a carabiner but when the shit hits the fan and you are in fight or flight mode you might forget till the last minute to put them on and then you are overtaken by the flame front so you just drop them and get in.

[@commiehunter733]

​@@penguin12902 i never thought of that, but it makes perfect sense

[@jondixon1392]

Make shelters out of pack material

[@mnpd3]

Same old story; no one having eyes on where the fire is and what it's doing, no one communicating where the fire is or what its doing, no viable escape routes or escape information/safety zones. Then in the midst of ignorance a fire takes a run from a place the victims never thought it to be. Needs to be another safety guideline for wildfire fighters.... call it the KMA Rule. Anytime you are told to do something without your personal knowledge of ALL safety guidelines being followed, you respond "Kiss My Ass". Yeah, you might not be fighting many more fires, but it will be your replacement's name on the news; you'll remain wonderfully anonymous.

[@sir.willthur5428]

Yes!

[@XAlpineSuptDN]

Yeah I was there. We were the crew just up from them. 6 of the 20 died. The others some of whom got out by going down the canyon to the road and got in our buggies and drove away and some survived in their shelters. We could see the main fire and knew where it was. What we didn’t know was that there were spot fires 1/2 mile behind us because the commo was shit that day. Tac channel jammed. I’m sure there was a bunch of group think going on given there were like 8 hotshot crews on that piece of line and we were burning out the line to make it safe so some tunnel vision as well since we were about to get the torch. What we couldn’t see was that the fire was plume dominated (but that is before plume dominated fire was ever described and it was before LCES - the guy Paul Gleason who described came up with LCES was on this fire just up the line from us. So yeah the fire conditions were extreme but we were on the cusp of putting fire to the line. When the plume collapsed and the downdrafts started driving fire downhill the shit hit the fan. We found a safety zone in the hard black but our escape route was viable. So the fire crossed the line between us and Perryville so their only option was down the canyon to the road. They were spread out looking for spots and holding the line. Easy for you to monday morning quarterback things and no doubt everyone knows they made mistakes that day but sometimes when you are in the thick of it you don’t see the holes in the swiss cheese lining up because you are reacting to each event that pulls you further down the road. Perryville happened to be in the worst possible place because of the terrain the downdrafts also funneled down right were the entrapment site was. Whereas everyone further up the canyon were blocked from the wind by a ridge line as well as having hard black from earlier firing operations available. You know sometimes the difference between living and dying on a fire is luck (unfortunately). You can remain safe by never going out in the fire environment too. Just don’t leave the truck. By the way there is already a KMA rule it’s called Refusing Risk in the Incident Response Pocket Guide. It’s just a bummer that you think it is so simple and these people are so stupid.

[@slackjawedyokel1]

@@XAlpineSuptDN Always wonder on this if the type 2 crews would have been better utilized by bringing them to the top and having them follow the burnout -- deff would have been safer in this instance

[@XAlpineSuptDN]

@@slackjawedyokel1 Perryville was considered to be a really good crew at the time. Not type 1 but close. The other issue was we were actively patrolling for and putting out spot fires both inside the line and outside (the ones we could grid for or see). Perryville had been there since early on the previous day so and working all night so probably kinda beat. But that is how fires operated back then. We didn’t have 2:1 work rest ratio or R&R guidelines. The other problem was that the incident management teams were transitioning mid day so that added to the confusion. Including changing radio frequencies. But even the air attack flying the fire could not see this huge column because it was flying under it. Noone let us know there was a pyrocumulus cloud over the fire. It’s a miracle we didn’t have more fatalities that day. Plus we were continually prepping the dozer line or in other words removing fuels along the inside of the line to reduce fire intensity along it as well as snagging it. The fact that there was a subdivision adjacent to our line put some level of unrecognized pressure on folks to make this piece of line work even though it was not the best location so we had to make do with what we had. Lots of lessons learned that day. If you want to learn more about the Dude fire the investigation report is on the Wildfire Lessons Learned website.

[@commiehunter733]

Like (swa) Stop work authority? OSHA says everyone person can use it..

[@sandraash2596]

It looks like they waited too long to deploy their shelters. Panic? On another video I noticed they were having problems with the yellow strap while trying to deploy. It seems we need more research for shelters so they can be deployed quicker and they don't delaminate. One of the things that helped a crew member on the other fire was that he dug a hole for his face and rested his chin on his pile of dirt.

[@reverberer]

according to the case study video on this channel everyone that deployed and stayed under survived. some couldnt deploy, one person left the shelter. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jIGYnGukmZiWmtE

[@josephbrandt6778]

In these remote area fires who cares just let em burn out if no life or structure etc are in danger...makes no sense to me!