OSR v D&D 5E: A Questing Beast Crossover!

In episode #121, Professor Dungeonmaster comments on a video by Ben from Questing Beast! What's the difference between Old School games and modern systems like D&D 5E & Pathfinder? PDM does a deep dive into the history of RPGs to find the answers!
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[@lisanadazdy7832]

I've heard the difference between old and new style rules this way: "In modern rules players are meant to engage with rules before everything else. In old-school rules, the players engage with the *environment* before everything else".

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Accurate.

[@PanicSatanic]

And PbtA, players are meant to engage with the narrative before everything else?

[@jasonvoorhees895]

I never really thought about the psychology of the old school artwork, but you're right. There used to be a feeling of "Oh shit, we're gonna die!" before we even started the game.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Absolutely!

[@NoActuallyGo-KCUF-Yourself]

4th and 5th ed. art looks like a movie I'd like to watch with popcorn not a game that I'd like to play with pretzels.

[@H1Guard]

In many old school campaigns you would lose two, maybe three characters before one would survive to fourth level.

[@HasturYellowSign]

I never played any rules set beyond AD&D 2e. And we mostly stuck with 1st edition. We jumped out of buying D&D books by the mid to late 90s. And even though I’ve moved you can still find people wanting to play 2e or earlier because it’s just more fun

[@Runehammer1]

great breakdown on a very elusive topic

[@filiplykkegaardkastrup1876]

Skål 🍻

[@NoActuallyGo-KCUF-Yourself]

Runehammer, you are an epic hero among game designers. Please keep doing what you do!

[@tohellwithyourcrap8045]

Ayyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeee

[@Pokarface7]

And now your game is a better DND game than DND 5e!

[@sumdude4281]

Most players favorite magic item in 5e is the +5 Plot Armor.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

LOL. Good one.

[@forsomereason3713]

I want the 3 best RPG influencers (IMHO): Questing Beast, Dungeon Craft and Runehammer to make a collaborative podcast/video discussion talk now.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Cool idea.

[@xdrag0nflyx]

No Matt Colville?

[@forsomereason3713]

@@xdrag0nflyx who's that?

[@xdrag0nflyx]

@@forsomereason3713 Another DM youtuber who gives pretty good advice if youre in need of more content, look up his Running the Game series

[@OldSchoolGM94]

@@forsomereason3713 He is a writer for some AAA videogames that made a great video series for DMs based around how to build good stories in a D&D format. It is more broad ideas then knitty gritty stuff

[@Goshin65]

Good stuff, spot on. In a B/X game the players were being followed by a powerful enemy wizard and his retinue of dangerous fighters... they'd already fought him once and he escaped. This time they backtracked him at night to where his gang were sleeping in a barn. They took out the sentries quietly, blocked the barn doors, and SET THE BARN ON FIRE. That's OSR...

[@bensaylor9093]

My girl who is super new to tabletop gaming has expressed how much more she enjoys the feeling of Mork Borg over 5e. I've never been more happy or proud.

[@ppowell2020]

The gritty feel and high stakes element attracted me to OSR. 5e is good, but doesn’t have that edge. - Utah

[@spudsbuchlaw]

Fuck Utah, all my Homies hate Utah What's so good about it? It's got a Salty lake, big whoop, how bout you join the rest of the 70% of the earth's surface

[@gstaff1234]

This DID age well. Nice work Professor

[@DanielMendoza-qx5rl]

I really felt like as a newbie to the hobby, playing 5e for a couple of sessions made me feel I was playing a video game almost. However I don't think its awful but almost lacks a bit of flair to what you do in the game. I tried Basic Fantasy RPG and i felt like i was my character doing actions without any sort of skills that i want to use for the enviroment. Though describing things from both DM and players made it very interesting. I mean lethality will turn off a lot of people not wanting to lose more than 2 characters, but it feels less fun to survive a challenge. Enjoyed the video 👍

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks, Daniel! Pass it on!

[@blitzthekraken9832]

It's one reason older players are so much more cautious when they play. I have quite a few dead rogues too. I remember if you got a character up to 7th level, people got really careful. The truth of it all, great stories revolve around astounding and incredible deaths.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

LOL. True. Very true.

[@jeffersonhouse94]

Jeff from Idaho here. I have played older editions, but prefer 5e. That's what brought me back after a 20 year absence. I think you can still be creative in 5e, with the right group. I also appreciate that it isn't a complete meat grinder, and doesn't suffer from the extreme crunch of some other editions. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, professor!

[@tukkerintensity5575]

Dungeon Crawl Classics is my jam.

[@longshot9060]

Oh! The OSR nostalgia! I am running an OSR game for my son and his friends and they are loving it! Long Shot, South Carolina

[@hollywoodguy70]

I take this as a challenge to GMs to run their 5E games like OSR games. You can play with standardized rules and still allow for improvisations that the rules don't cover.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Check out QB's response to one of my videos: kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6a7l5SBpMuJl5o

[@jessemcintosh7550]

Jesse McIntosh, Idaho! Your continued focus on old school feel and mechanics and how you apply them to your home game is what keeps me coming back. I'm hoping to try Runehammer's 5e Hardcore Mode if I can get a group together! Thanks Prof.

[@deanlol]

It's great to see you guys reviewing each other. I love both of your channels.

[@BlackJar72]

I'll say it is interesting to see players used to newer editions play early versions of D&D; they often like it, but DMs use to newer editions often include tons of rolls, mostly ability checks, we never did back in the day. It seems its a habit of thought that's hard to break, and which those who are used to it simply assume as the norm.

[@TheGuidermichael]

Scott - Chattanooga TN Thanks! Great video! Glad someone finally succinctly said this!

[@johnfreymuth4808]

Awesome! Love me some Questing Beast. Glad you guys got to collab! - UT

[@Zenith12321]

This was a great way to clearly explain the difference, thank you! I’m looking to combine some OSR flair to my 5e games and was trying to figure out how to explain the difference to my players. I can just send them this

[@thomaskiser3886]

Tj Kiser! Illinois! Love your videos! I have tried many of your ways for speeding up combat and making monsters better! So much good info!!

[@TheShadowKarl]

Wow my 2 favorite D&D channels teaming up! So cool!

[@smugzoid5156]

I am watching this for the 3rd time (since first published) love your description of events from 8:30 on with OSR ingenuity vs perception rolls. 5e has merit of getting players to min max characters. But in an essence it all comes down to probability using different dice. Hearing check at a door 5 or less on a d6 = 83% chance success. DC 15 (+10 with attributes ) 5 or higher = 75% chance of success. What ever seems the easiest or most likable for the GM or the group wins. But it all comes down to probability rolls (which is very, very, fun).

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks for watching this three times. I say a similar thing in my latest video about Darkvision, at the very end. Check it out!

[@christopherkearney6477]

Christopher from California here. Wow! With everything going on, really looking forward to KZbin binging which means a whole lot of Dungeon Craft with everyone’s Favorite Professor, Pro. DM. Doing research for my next campaign. I’m still a ways off from beginning and have been looking at many different systems. Your video has made me want to look more closely at Five Torches Deep, DCC, and the Black Hack OSR games. Although I’m not beyond using the old 1e or ODD rules either. Thanks for the great video and please keep them up.

[@haydenwilson7190]

Hayden Wilson from CA! As someone who is still learning a lot about tabletop RPGs, this video really helped me understand what OSRs are, and I gotta say, I really want to try one of these out! I remember the Five Torches Deep episode and I've been really itching to try it!

[@willshy4347]

Will, from California here. Great video, as always, Prof. I'm a big fan of your channel. Keep up the hard work! It would be an honor to play with an original terrain piece of yours. I don't have facebook, but my fingers are crossed for that UDT!

[@apilgrim8715]

Erol Otus always had pictures of adventurers about to meet a bad ending (Palace of the Silver Princess and more)

[@leonard8510]

Ryan Leonard, from Pennsylvania. Thanks for sharing Questing Beast. I had not watching any of his videos before but I'm now enjoying his work.

[@Hatmatter]

Hatmatter-Oregon. Nice observations and great video. Concerning your suggestions at the very end, I also note that there are options in the DMG that allow one to build out the 5E experience to simulate some of the lethality you are describing as part of the OSR. For example, employing the option in the DMG wherein a character can sustain specific injuries in combat...some of them permanent.

[@adamcampbell5226]

Adam Campbell, Louisiana - wonderful breakdown, Professor! I’m enjoying your channel!

[@raymonddeancona4522]

Great video as always! I like the Five Torches Deep hack on 5E. Ray from PA

[@connorshartle3383]

Connor Shartle, Arizona. After your FTD video, I bought the book and have begun to introduce some of the rules piecemeal into my current Curse of Strahd campaign -- the players really like the sense of real danger that it had begun to build! Thanks again PDM!

[@richardfortier]

Been looking forward to this one! It's one of our favourite debates in the teachers' lounge...

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

You have cooler teacher's lounge than I do.

[@briandavison7033]

Brian from Georgia I certainly believe that having experience in previous editions of the game have made me a better DM.

[@SynesthesiaBoy]

Synesthesia Boy here! Illinois. Thanks for the vids PDM. you've turned me to the grimdark side :)

[@sirguy6678]

Fun video! It’s an interesting concept to have a mash up of two KZbin icons 😃

[@chriscambron4711]

Chris from TN here....playing 5e after a 30 year hiatus and I’ve definitely noticed that exploration seems to be a litany of dice rolls

[@zan917]

Ian Charles, Michigan Newcomer to D&D. I love 5e, but I also love your channel’s take on it and I’ve adapted my game to many of your principles. Also dig your crafting videos and I’ve made two buildings and some dungeon tiles based on your instructions. Thanks for everything!

[@goyasolidar]

No mention of Lamentations of the Flame Princess? For shame!

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Forgot Old School Essentials as well.

[@stanlogan9213]

Great insight into OSR gaming. I am beginning my 5th decade as a player and still fondly recall many of those PC's that didn't outlast their first adventure.

[@jessefrutig2452]

Jesse Frutig from Wisconsin. Hey Professor, just getting into the OSR scene. Took you advice and got 3 Torches Deep and I'm getting ready to start DMing a DCC game! Thanks for all your work, love the channel!

[@DragonRoams]

Dragon Roams - Pennsylvania. Nice to see you partner up with Questing Beast for this one. This is a nice look at the two. We have some young players in our group that are new and half cringe when we talk about playing the earlier versions of the game. The other half are interested in trying out an older edition.

[@DnDOldGuard]

Jeff here in Wisconsin. I got into the OSR over a decade ago now and I have not really looked back. I've heavily modified 5E when I do run it and now with Five Torches Deep, I pretty much just use that and a few of my house rules!

[@dirigoallagash3464]

Dirigo (aka John), Maine. So glad you mentioned Hardcore 5e. Would really like to see Ben review it. I'm knee deep in crafting 10x10 "mini" UTDs for different zone types.

[@sonicexpert986]

Kyle from IL here! Would love a chance to see that UDT up close. Thanks for the video, it's great to hear your thoughts actually comparing OSR to 5e - I know in the past you've said that you play sort of a hodge-podge of several versions at home. I've never really gotten into OSR, but I definitely want to try and encourage more creative thinking in my players outside of "rolling perception" or investigation, or whatever. It's what I love about running for new players too - you tell them that in this game they can do whatever they want, and in the first couple of combats they often have creative ideas - ones that aren't covered in the rules due to action economy or other things. I would love a video on how to get 5e players who LOVE 5e to start thinking more out of the box like you've described here.

[@TheRendar]

great video. I agree with everything you said, and have been applying it to my games of DnD . Great stuff. keep up the awesome content!

[@petemcsorley]

Content is spot on accurate. Love the history lessons about D&D beginnings. As a DM I balance my games with Hero-centric 5e style to deadly encounters using some of what I remember from AD&D. I agree that the new 5e can seem more MMO video game-like. Questing Beast is added to my arsenal now as well. As always, thank you Professor

[@Dra8er]

Great Video. Our group is headed back to some Advanced Dungeon Crawl Classics after a 2yr 5E campaign. While fun it just doesn't scratch that itch. Thanks for the giveaway, appreciate your effort and look forward to next week!

[@beyondtheblaze2758]

This is a great idea, thanks for the collaboration. Kyle from Kentucky

[@BearlyOutdoors]

I would love to play at your table. You and I think almost exactly alike on lots of stuff. Watching your videos is like hearing myself think! :)

[@JeffSlocum]

Jeff - Pennsylvania Thanks for the video! I'm currently playing a 5e game and a 2e game and what you say is so true. In the 5e game we're basically superheros and in 2e we're happy to survive an encounter.

[@mtgtraininggrounds6879]

Zachary Koch, Alabama I really appreciate the history lessons this channel offers. You can tell he's a professor!

[@martinteply1145]

Martin, Iowa - digging the channel. Looking forward to more.

[@johnr7279]

Another awesome video on this great channel and I was like #518. I made actual sewer tiles but really sewer lengths as they're all about 10" long. I made a 4-way intersection tile and a couple of little side alcoves. Mine are painted much like yours. If they have a stinky look to them, you've achieved your goals! Fun stuff and an interesting way to travel in some scenarios. Anything that makes players think and where they encounters can be slightly different adds more layers of coolness to the game!

[@yvindheilo229]

Two of my favorite channels teaming up? Great!

[@JavlinVII]

Andy from GA here - One of the main reasons I enjoy your channel is the grittiness that you encourage in DMing, which I take to come from your experience with previous editions of D&D. In particular, I really liked your ideas about making magic more risky, and my players have embraced the change in our campaign. I'm all for mining the previous editions for ways to tweak the current. However, I definitely feel we gained a great deal with 3rd and 4th edition not least in the accessibility of our hobby, which with the coming of 5th has allowed us to attract a wide variety of players. Looking at these OSG I'm reminded how little time I have to devote to the hobby, and I imagine them only remaining popular with the truly hardcore. Excellent content as always sir.

[@ken.droid-the-unique]

Ken Siwek, CA. I played back in the 80s and stopped after I graduated high school, only to return in the past few years. A lot has changed from AD&D to 5e, that's for sure. Still, what I learned back in the day is the same today: Never ask the DM if the teleport trap sends the group together or separately! JB, if you're out there - thanks for the great memories!

[@Goshin65]

"Save or die". A thing many newer players don't understand about that mechanic was this: getting a saving throw AT ALL was a leniency.... a normal person *should be dead*. Another thing was that you played to *avoid rolling saves at all*... you tried to out-think the opposition, or come up with an out of the box solution the DM would allow that would bypass the need to save in the first place. Trapped treasure chest? Drag it out of the dungeon and throw it off a cliff. It busts open and you go down and pick up the treasure...

[@magnaquam]

Ah my joy when two of my favorite KZbin channels join forces.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Kind of you to say.

[@travislyons9448]

Travis Lyons , Pennsylvania I started in 3.5 so I’ve never known the horrors of 5 hp fighters. Sounds fun actually , I’m sure it creates a ton of tension when a goblin on an average roll can kill half your party at max hp.

[@shockerck4465]

Yes. Try B/X or Labyrinth Lord by Goblinoid Games. Free no art version on Drive thru. Hello from Allentown PA !

[@davidblack1846]

Dave from AZ, I also started with the basic D&D set, good memories

[@nextlevel8241]

Next Level from Washington. Our group decided to play Strahd tomorrow with the house rule of no dice sharing. Wish us luck. Cheers!

[@bluestarorion]

Oh man, I was actually about to build my own ultimate sewer terrain this weekend. Great ideas, thanks Professor!

[@jamesc.7988]

James C. from South Carolina and I would love that sewer terrain! I just recently started using UDT and have 1 piece for my lazy Susan that I haven't even painted yet so it is just a sad piece of blue foam. And you are SO RIGHT about OSR vs. 5e (and other modern RPGs). As a GM that doesn't pull puches or fudge dice rolls, it can still be very difficult to challenge players. In Savage Worlds, they walk through a firestorm of high caliber gunfire and walk out with very little to show for it. Some characters even walk out completely unharmed. As a player in that same system, I no longer feel challenged. In fact, I feel invulnerable many times but I honestly miss those moments where the GM described something horrible and everyone at the table thought, "Oh shit."

[@jstewart_1]

I have been binging your channel since discovering it a week ago. Amazed you don't have more subscribers and views. Will share with others.

[@worldbigfootcentral3933]

OMG. I agree with you on every point, this is perhaps the most accurate D&D analysis video i have ever had the sheer enjoyment to watch. Well done, Prof DM.

[@PeterVacca]

Peter from MA. I enjoy running/playing DCC as “one-shots” as it gives all the fear and fun, but not as much investment. Looking forward to watching the companion video as well as their review of 5 torches deep.

[@jacobgrimm9475]

Jacob from New York Nice break down. I remember wanting to build tougher and stronger characters using D20 3e. Min Maxing and all that. But with age I find I like the OSR tone much better, even though I never played the original 1st edition.

[@RobertWilson-ct8ie]

Robert Wilson - New York Thanks for the Videos always enjoy watching and learning.

[@necronwarrior]

Great vid, thanks from Eureka, CA!

[@ruep3lover]

RUDY here from Texas thank you for making these videos and I started playing dnd because of your video’s! So thank you so much and keep up what your doing!

[@BanjoSick]

Always loved running Rolemaster as a GM. The players were always on their toes, because death comes ripping!

[@captinreveng1441]

Luke from KS ( in the middle of Nowhere). It is truly hard getting players to truly express fear even if it would be playing their character to do so. You can have fear Wis save effects happening and they still will use a demon head as a ventriloquist dummy.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Lol. Seriously. I laughed at that one. It's true.

[@efawscuba610]

Another great video! My Lazy Susan would look great with some sewer terrain on it! I'm Tyler from WV.

[@KoreyMacGill]

Superb viddy! I loved this vid because im developing a osr type game but i still love the more strategic current edition of d&d. And this was a great explanation

[@stevesmith5963]

Great job Professor, as always! Steve-MO

[@AlVainactual]

From what I've seen of your campaign journals, your game has a VERY BIG OSR feel, without using an OSR ruleset "per se". You follow the spirit of the endeavor, homebrewing and hacking your game until its OSR and that is INCREDIBLE. Personally, I'm thinking of switching to Worlds Without Number from 5e. It has that 5e simple resolution roll D20, add bonuses hit, number mechanic but with a lot more OSR goodness. It's great!

[@adamkrenn6323]

Adam Krenn, Nevada. Another great video and some excellent points!

[@bentoon3646]

All my players are new to the DCC adventures I’m running, coming from learning 5E or Pathfinder. They’re not “groking” the fun of OSR games, and I think you hit on the reason. I’ll be sure to pass on a link to this video. Thanks.

[@davidwelland7920]

As a long time player I really have enjoyed your videos. Would love to see a video discussing the use of Chrisma in the game. Cheers. Contest entry: Dave, Washington.

[@johnleach8553]

Thanks for the explanation. Had no idea what an OSR was. Definitely like the ingenuity the play style inspires.

[@cephalopad]

Great idea for Professor DM to team up with Ben!

[@briantalbert2985]

Great video Dan. I've been playing since the white box edition and have been trying to bring some of the OSR vibe to my 5e campaign. Most of my players get it and are having a blast but I have one who is always complaining that I'm not running RAW and he is slowly starting to "think" instead of "button mashing" his characters actions.Brian in MN.

[@davidaldinger3666]

Cool. Sign me up. David Aldinger. NY. Great episode as usual. We started with Holmes and B/X. Our DM relished killing us over and over, so when we did succeed it felt amazing. Like you won something.

[@poisonuskeifer]

CNE here from California. Love your content Professor!

[@JoshuaMeehan]

Just finished a session of saltmarsh where my players rescued their Lizardfolk allies from the mines, uncovered a secret shaft to an Aboleth lair. 2 players dropped and 3 others almost drowned, but the group succeeded driving off the aboleth (will return at the styes). Lots of fun and with your tips I was able to keep everything running smoothly! -Josh, AZ

[@dustanddeath3985]

I've played a Braunstein courtesy of Robert Parker of the Hydra Cooperative, I can confirm they are immensely fun.

[@razorchuckles]

Razor in Texas here - and this comparison is exactly why my next campaign is going to be grim and OSR. I'll be combining 5E with your house rules from Dungeon Craft, along with DCC and Five Torches Deep (which is great). Looking forward to sending multitudes of zero levels into the depths and seeing how many come out!

[@psmithcrna]

Paul from Tennessee. I really liked first edition when I played it and have enjoyed the progression of the game. 5E and the new 2E pathfinder are cool and well thought out.

[@nwelte1]

Nate Minnesota. Love the channel and the material. It is like you read my mind regarding game play.

[@gaminggambeson6553]

Chancellor, Oregon Thanks for the fantastic lessons! I've been a subscriber for several months and its one of the best investments of time I have done in a while.

[@TheSoling27]

WHAAA from an Cannuck subscriber -- great vid as always -- cheers -- still playiing AD&D -- old school

[@TheSoling27]

thinking about franken - developing the D20 aspect -- from 5e ---maybe

[@carldettlinger7966]

Great video, as usual. I will definitely check out Questing Beast. Carl of PA.

[@eave01]

Your comments are, as always, insightful, educational, and inspirational. You are to RPGaming as Robert Sapolsky is to nueroendicrinology. Thank you for another great video.

[@AreaCode000]

I played in a game of Braunstein with Dave Wesley at a convention in 2018. It was a great experience!

[@michaelmorrissey5631]

Love to see team ups and collaboration! 5e is designed by a card game company and it plays that way. But it’s easy to fix... keep teachin’ Professor!🙏🏻

[@michaelmorrissey5631]

Tony Black Hi Tony, what I’m referring to is the fact that WotC are the makers of Magic the Gathering card game... and according to the designers used many of the principles that made MtG such a colossal success in designing the newer editions of D&D. Character “builds” mimic building your deck. “Feats” are equivalent to individual cards and exist solely for mechanical benefit with absolutely NO regard for how or why the character can now magically accomplish the new feat. Players are encouraged to “build” a mechanically efficient DAMAGE PER ROUND machine. In pre WotC D&D this was not the case, there was a purer regard for who the character was and exploring that through playing the game.

[@jacobhope6164]

Jacob Hope California USA Great video professor! I too think the streamlined nature of 5e mixed with the DM arbitration, and lethality of old school D&D is an optimal blend. It really boils down to basic psychology and sociology. At least, that's how I see it.

[@jelio123456]

thanks, keeps these videos coming