Dunkerque Class

[@pborgia1]

Despite their designed combat limitations these ships were gorgeous, with esthetics on par with the Scharnhorsts, Littorios and Bismarcks.

[@TheDogGeneral]

True but they're still battleships because that's what the french navy called them I mean Ryan is entitled to his own opinions as our other historians and individual enthusiasts but classifications non was standing if the French navy considered them to be battleships despite their limitations then we ought to as well because that is historically correct

[@George_M_]

Ironic they're matched to the Scharnhorsts and share similar fates - sitting in port getting bombed.

[@Balmung60]

Some people call these "cruiser-killers" "supercruisers" (which appeared in certain design documents of the time) or "large cruisers" after the nominal terminology for the Alaska-class

[@dylandepetro4187]

Wow..... Dunkirk really had it rough. I wonder if the crew must of thought the ship cursed or bad luck afterwards.

[@SamTaylors]

Given their displacement and crew size (both roughly half an Iowa) it would be interesting to speculate how the pair of Dunkirk and Strasbourg would fare against a single Iowa

[@b_de_silva]

well the iowa had radar, was faster, had better armor, better guns and better fire control, it's not even a contest.

[@jameskellard5075]

@@b_de_silva The same could be said of Graff Spee against the British light cruisers BUT.............

[@b_de_silva]

@@jameskellard5075 the cruisers didn't win, the graf spee scuttled cuz the captain got false information that one of british battle cruisers was on its way, and he knew he had literally no chance against one of them. do some research.

[@jameskellard5075]

@@b_de_silva It doesn't mater how victory is won, only that it is won. The RN lost no ships the German ship ended up on the bottom. Thus the Graf Spee lost.

[@b_de_silva]

@@jameskellard5075 uhhh actually it does, because the reason they said that the british battlecruiser was on its way is because they didn't wanted the graf spee to come out for round 2 because they knew they wouldn't win. your argument is idiotic, in fact it only proves my point, HMS Repulse alone was so much better than Graf Spee that it's captain decided to scuttle rather than to go up against it. the cruisers didn't win, british intelligence did, all the cruisers did was some damage to the graf spee. and the graf spee wasn't technologically superior to the british cruisers, it only had bigger guns, an iowa is superior in every single shape or form to a dunkirk.

[@CRAZYHORSE19682003]

Slight correction #2 The Scharnhorst class battleships were designed from the start as Battleships. They were intended to be armed with three dual 15 inch turrets, the same turrets used on the following Bismarck class battleships. When they were being built, the Germans were having technical issued getting the 15 inch turrets completed. The 11 inch triple turrets were opted for as a stop gap measure to get the two ships in service. The Intention was to regun the ships later but the war got in the way. The Gniesenau actually went into the yards to be re-gunned but was so heavily damaged by British bombing she was scrapped.

[@timothyschmidt9566]

Although there were many in Germany that wanted the ships to be armed with 15" guns, the ships were designed to carry the 11" guns they carried. Rearming them with 15" guns was going to be a major undertaking. The hoist system and magazines needed to be replaced, the barbets strengthened, major increases in electrical capacity and the forward section of the ship rebuilt with additional buoyancy (and an extra 10 meters in length). The turrets needed to be modified as their mountings had a different diameter than the barbets. In all, the Germans estimated in would take about a year of dockyard time to accomplish all this. In war time there just wasn't the resources available.

[@CRAZYHORSE19682003]

@@timothyschmidt9566 Incorrect they were designed to have the 15 inch guns but the new turrets were having technical issues so the triple 11 inch guns were installed as a stop gap measure to get the ships into service.

[@iansneddon2956]

@@CRAZYHORSE19682003 There is a difference between designed to allow for a later expansion and being designed to accept a straight swap of turrets. Particularly when the reason for the 11 inch guns was that the 15 inch guns and turrets were not yet available. They allowed room and weight for expansion based on an estimate of what dual 38cm turrets would require. Ultimately, significant modifications were carried out to Gneisenau in order to take the weight of the heavier turrets, which included a redesign of the bow and lengthening of the ship to increase buoyancy. They considered doing the expansion because Gneisenau's bow had been devastated by an explosion in the forward turret from a bomb that penetrated the deck. They had to rebuild the bow anyway so they could build it larger to add buoyancy. Strengthening of the turret rings was also required. It is a testament to the original design allowing for future upgrade that it was even possible to do this at all. Normally navies don't up-gun their capital ships, they build new ones from scratch to accommodate bigger guns.

[@happyhighway106]

#65 Thank You, for this presentation! Technology changes always make current battleships obsolete before their completion. None will be perfect! The Strasbourg and Dunkerque shouldda, couldda, wouldda, be one segment of fleet operations. Not Independant Operators. They were doomed from the time the hull hit the water.

[@muhakaa]

Found this channel a month ago and its so much interesting videos. Very informative and interesting. Hope I have time next year to visit US and see some museum BBs

[@EFFEZE]

And did you?

[@robertascii5498]

Dude...great videos! Thanks for all of your effort, and information!

[@CRAZYHORSE19682003]

A slight correction, the Dunkerque class was designed in response to and to defeat the German Deutschland-class Panzerschiff cruisers. They were armored to protect themselves against the 11 inch guns of the Deutschland class and had superior guns in caliber and number.

[@buzzpedrotti5401]

What other ship was attacked by four enemies and its own Navy?

[@doctordoom1337]

a comparison about Jean Bart as it was during the 50's / 60's to the Iowas of the same time would be nice, not the WWII era. Not sure if this was covered in that video

[@DrVictorVasconcelos]

I think you're right about the "battle cruiser" terminology being misleading, but "cruiser killer" undersells them because they are supposed to kill cruisers that were made to be as close to battleships as they could get away with.

[@I_am_not_a_dog]

Personally, I refer to ships like the Dunkerque as “super-battlecruisers.” They’re clearly the ultimate conclusion of the battlecruiser-type. “Supercruiser” is a bit misleading, IMO, as I would argue that this would be more appropriately applied to the ultimate evolution of light and heavy cruisers, such as the US Worcester- and Des Moines-classes, respectively. “Cruiser-killer,” IMO, is simply a role, not a class or type. The prime WWII-era powers could’ve designed destroyers that were intended to be “cruiser-killers” if they so chose. “Super-battlecruiser” is really the most appropriate term, I would argue. They sacrifice just enough in terms of armor and armament to maintain (if not exceed) battlecruiser-level speeds but are also generally bear the pinnacle of battlecruiser-type armament and armor.

[@carrickrichards2457]

My Grandfather was in a destroyer at Mers El Kebir and at Dakar. He was sunk in both places. There are several good accounts of the Mers El Kebir Tragedy. Admiral Gensoul would not negotiate, and forwarded a selectively edited (unflatering) version of British terms to France which even in the Chaos of the fall of France was answered but based on a false premise, set up the fight. Admiral Gensoul is usually blamed for the 1300 dead, on the basis of this negligence but never commented, dying in 1974.

[@TayebMC]

I thought that the British had only a junior Officer who spoke French so he was sent to negotiate with Admiral Gensoul, Admiral Gensoul thought it insulting of the British to send such a low ranking Officer and refused to see him. The time for negotiation ran out so the British opened fire.

[@andrewmacomber8345]

Dunquerk had slightly less belt armor (8.9 ")than Strasbourg (9.4" belt)

[@me67galaxylife]

Also to note is that their belt was inclined so effective armor was tougher

[@jotabe1984]

the only add on i should mention is that Italians were planning their new ships when Dunkirk came into the mix and they knew that their 4 Dreadnoughts which were 1st gen 12' guns 20.000tn 21knt ships coulnd't really compete... so Besides the build of the new class of ships which would be the Littorios, they needed to put up some kind of equal contenders. Thats why the Cavour and Dorias got their rebuild need, and the rebuild was specifically made in order to defeat Bretagne class and at least be on pair (but actually defeat by a small margin) Dunkirk class. Fun thing is that France first decided which enemys they have and build their ships accordingly, which was a pretty clever tactic since the Dunkirks despite being inferior to Big battleships from Italy and Germany were still better than Pocket Battleships and were kind of on-pair with Dorias and arguably with Scharnorst. Italy on the other hand, pick their enemys wrong and they rebuild the Cavour/Dorias to be on pair with French ships but were absolutely inferior against English battleship so most of their battleship lineup during the entire Mediterranean battle were in fact inferior ships to an already bigger, better trained and better tech-suited enemy like UK

[@tapalmer99]

You're talking right now about the rubber in the voids as a torpedo defense I thought that a good torpedo defense could be made a type of bladder or very very porous material (like a fuel cell) though I don't know what their capabilities back then of foam shoved into the space kind of the way we put bladders in the wings of aircraft except for the fact that these bladders would go in and have a bunch of marble to bowling ball size voids within the entire structure that's going into that void I've seen pictures of livers I think we see these big pockets throughout it and I think that's what's reminding me ironically in California they put a bunch of 3 inch black plastic balls on top of a reservoir to eliminate evaporation I think if they put a bunch of tennis ball size plastic balls each one of them is it popped would be dispersing energy and would be an incredible torpedo defense In my opinion

[@Ozark-nq9uu]

Fantastic video

[@petersoerent2554]

Thiese are great looking and well designed ships. In my wiew they are "poc- ketbattleships" They don't weight in as a true battlecruiser.

[@shelby_9613]

I'm from Dunkerque

[@TheDogGeneral]

Well Mr Szymanski regardless of their qualities and design attributes they're still battleships because the French navy referred to them as battleships and qualifications they had to use their Battleship tonnage to construct Stroudsburg and Dunkirk so it doesn't hold up to say their Cruiser Killers they're not that's not their intended function the French regarded them as capital ships are so we ought to as well

[@madzen112]

Btw, when you scrap and recycle a warship, there's an awful lot of steel left over, what exactly can it be used for?

[@sergarlantyrell7847]

I don't think the smaller displacement of the Dunkerque should prevent it from being counted as a battlecruiser, it is after all the role of a ship, and not its displacement that determines its type. The battlecruiser started out as a 12" gun-armed ship with 6" of armour (11" and 9.8" on the German side), about as fast as the contemporary cruisers & with their overwhelming firepower & armour to resist any cruiser's return fire, designed to hunt them down on the high seas, and to break through the enemy cruiser screen in a full naval battle. This was I think the 1st generation of battlecruisers. Obviously, once both sides had battlecruisers of their own, the emphasis shifted towards fighting the oposition's battlecruisers (as well as their cruisers), so armour was increased to resist the 11" guns of the German battlecruisers & the main guns upgraded in-line with the battleships. Thus was the 2nd generation of battlecruisers. Around this time, someone in the RN took leave of their senses & built 15" gun-armed ships but with practically no armour, but the less said about that, the better. Eventually, this trend would see them catch up to battleships in terms of armour and armament (both calibre AND number of guns), and by the time you get to Hood or the G3, they's practically turned into the fast battleship, in the 3rd generation of battlecruiser. Crucially though, the Washington Naval Treaty stoped all that. But the result was (apart from no more 50,000 ton battlecruisers... unfortunately) there was an abundance of 10,000 ton cruisers with either 6" or 8" guns (down from the last of the armoured cruisers at nearly 15,000 tons & armed with 8.3" to 9.2" guns). This revived the requirement for a 1st gen battlecruiser within many navies... In the French case, Dunkerque. Interestingly, Strasbourg was upgraded to a 2nd gen battlecruiser during construction thanks to the German ships being built around that time. In short, just because combat parity with battleships (only faster) is where most battlecruisers were heading towards the end of WW1, doesn't mean to say that need be the ONLY definition of a batltecruiser, since it had constantly been in flux up to that point.

[@jameskellard5075]

Have you done a vide on British Town and Colony class cruisers?

[@WildBillCox13]

What about a torpedo defense zone designed like a self sealing fuel tank-i.e.: with rubber/plastic/designer material layers both absorbing shock effect and sealing the hole after?

[@herpderp7114]

Self sealing fuel tanks work if the hole is small. A torpedo can leave a colossal hole measured in meters. Designing a system that limits damage to a point where your vessel isn't crippled after taking a hit is hard enough, forget sealing the hole.

[@abrahamedelstein4806]

29:53 Perfidious Albion...

[@alecblunden8615]

The French werengiven the option of going to the Carribbean colonies or re joining the war effort., which would have been the more honourable course. The French Admiral chose to fight. Mels el Kebir was a tragedy but an unfortunate necessity

[@abrahamedelstein4806]

@@alecblunden8615 Well, considering that the French would eventually scuttle their fleet, no, it was not, it was just the British being their dishonorable British selves.

[@alecblunden8615]

@@abrahamedelstein4806 None of which was foreseeable at the time. I don't agree with the common dismissal of the French military in WW2, but it was clear that the French contribution was limited, both in conventional warfare and irregular. Britain had to continue the fight from day one to VJ day., There was no much room for sentiment or for French sensibilities in 1940.

[@zsz868]

@@alecblunden8615 Britain and France should have helped Poland back on September '39, there would not be any of this issues on 1940. Both allies decided to sacrifice Poland in order to give them time to be better prepared for Germans in the future. We saw what happened on May/June '40...

[@alecblunden8615]

@@zsz868 Would you like to explain just how Britain or France could have done so ? Some degree of realism is called for.

[@vbscript2]

So, were these the only ships in WWII to be attacked and damaged by the British, the Germans, the Italians, the Americans, AND the French themselves? - lol

[@anonymusum]

The French heavy cruisers were not decent. In fact they were just awful having no armour at all. Only the Algerie was a decent cruiser.

[@me67galaxylife]

So they had good cruisers and a few bad ones

[@Christian_Weinert]

First improvement: take a better micro for better listening. Second: the complete speech sounds like an improvisation, how about making notes?

[@MrSvenovitch]

Ffs, you're a great historian Ryan but use the damn internet to get the French pronunciation right. It's not rocket science. I'm not even French and it makes me cringe. Take some pride in this part of your talks, jeezes.

[@otten5666]

Nobody cares Sven.