DW interview with influencer Stirling Cooper on toxic masculinity - Science unscripted

#toxicmasculinity #men #women #influencers #misogyny
A widely discussed study shows young German men are increasingly prepared to physically abuse their female partners.
How is that possible?
One theory - and we should emphasize there’s almost no science behind it yet - is that it’s the result of influencers who post toxically masculine content online.
Those videos and podcasts have been viewed billions of times.
And one of the people who has produced and posted them is Stirling Cooper.
Stirling agreed to come to DW to talk about whether he shares concerns that his content - and content like it - is negatively affecting how boys and men view themselves, and how they treat girls and women.
It was a difficult conversation. We’re posting what we feel are the most important - and reflective - 30 minutes of that discussion, which went on for nearly 1 ½ hours.
We would like to thank Stirling Cooper for coming to DW for a respectful talk, and we’d like to ask anyone watching to let us know what you think about it - in the comments below, or via email: [e-mail]
References:
1 in 3 German men find violence against women 'acceptable' - www.dw.com/en/...
Women’s Aid research on correlation between boys’ knowledge of Andrew Tate and propensity to condone violence against a partner - www.womensaid....
German interior ministry report on rising domestic abuse rates (in German) - www.bmfsfj.de/...
Thanks for listening and subscribing! pod.link/scien...
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
00:01 Why we wanted to talk to a masculinity influencer
01:35 Meet Stirling Cooper
02:16 Does Stirling see himself as toxic?
04:24 A misogynist meme Stirling Cooper shared as a ‘joke’
07:00 Influencer Sneako is confronted by homophobic, transphobic fans: ‘What have I done!?’
10:16 Conor & Gabe clash with over Sneako clip. Is it only ‘boys being boys’?
15:02 Why Stirling Cooper encourages the red pill for boys
17:23 Stirling Cooper’s connection to Andrew Tate
19:24 How online misogyny affects women: evolutionary psychologist Miriam Lindner
23:15 What women fear when they go out (when it comes to ‘strong’ men)
27:52 Does Stirling Cooper share our concerns that content like his causes harm?
33:00 Why you can’t do causal studies on toxic masculinity, and why we aired this interview

[@dantruong1562]

Dang this was sad to watch. Kudos to Sterling for owning these adult beta boys.

[@javierantunez9451]

You can tell how they tried to set him up and redirect the questions but failed miserably 😂

[@dw_podcasts]

Hey Javier, an influencer posts things. We brought some of those things into the studio to discuss with that influencer. (Plus a clip from a banned influencer and from an evolutionary biologist.) That's not a set up. It's a discussion. - Conor & Gabe

[@user-gh1yk1cr9i]

Wow these guys don't know about women

[@dw_podcasts]

Hi Razia, what is it you think we should know? - Conor

[@PunkDogCreations]

There is nothing scientific about biased and hateful content​@@dw_podcasts

[@halaltyrone]

These 2 interviewers are quite sorry versions of Man.😂 Ultimate Soyboys. What a Failed attempt at trying to set this man up! 🔥W Stirling

[@dw_podcasts]

What is the right version of Man? - Gabe

[@sha6077]

I am LOVING Stirling in this interview ahahhah he put them in their place (coming from a woman)

[@dw_podcasts]

What part did you like? Or parts? I mean that, I'm interested in what resonated with you (or didn't) - Conor

[@sha6077]

​@@dw_podcasts in a few words, you both tried to make him look bad or what other influencers like him make look bad, when they are right about masculinity. I like how he explained how you took all of this in the wrong way. But I don't think you got it anyways, just know that they are not toxic, masculinity is not toxic and that there are going to be stupid guys that will take it in the wrong way, but not the majority. I support Cooper, the tates, Justin waller, and in most of the things fresh and fit as well. It would be interesting if you brought some of them on the show as well, I'd love it and would totally watch it ☺️ I really liked this episode ❤

[@marcusreznowski4444]

I feel incredibly sad for these two. The lack of a grasp on reality must be a confusing place to live in.

[@dw_podcasts]

Hey Marcus - reality is definitely a confusing place to live in. But what is it you think we didn't grasp? Or don't grasp? - Conor

[@lukawilliams4822]

Sex and being a strong man is a healthy and important part of life, and Stirling helps men in that department. It’s the the parents job to monitor what their kids watch, you can not lump Stirling in with tate ffs… by these simps logic having Stirling on their show and talking about and watching tates content makes them guilty by association also!!! And it is worrying that you guys admit to only viewing clips of tate ect…I think if you ran a pole most woman would agree with stirlings views !!! And the odd ones that don’t , I bet have rainbow coloured hair !!! Side note these so called German men are not native German men,they are largely imports

[@dw_podcasts]

Flip the script. If women were posting videos titled... 'WHY YOU SHOULD CHEAT ON HIM' 'Tell him he's REPLACEABLE' 'Get more MONEY from your MAN' ... would you be into that? - Conor

[@freshlysqueezedaesthetics2942]

These dudes were soft asl man. What society needs more of these days is more confident, capable, and strong men.

[@dw_podcasts]

Where should we have been stronger in your view? What was the question? (Or questions?) - Conor

[@MultiKarola]

you mean men who dont argue with anyone. my way or high way. no nuance. plus Stirling has multiple relationship. is that strong? dont know

[@MissTyte]

thank you guys

[@ecompixel339]

These 2 weak men tried really hard to set up Stirling Cooper and failed miserably.

[@fredm4197]

Why everything has to be so rigid nowdays? It is a joke. Since when having a dark sense of humour is toxic masculinaty? 🤣

[@dw_podcasts]

I love dark humor, Fred - it helps me deal with the horrible stuff that happens in our world. But for me a good dark-humored joke ridicules the PERPETRATOR of the things that are wrong, not the victim. Does that make sense? In the meme he posted, it wasn't the perpetrator getting ridiculed - it was the victim, the submissive woman. To me that's just not funny. - Conor

[@MORPHEUSTATEPILL]

2 Slave minds against a free mind

[@Punishment_for_Decadence]

And people who don't recognise that big ego and masks of confidence often betray insecurity and manipulation haven't woken up from the matrix yet

[@nighthawksw]

The scenario he described of the man being overly aggressive to a woman not liking it, ignored two details: - Woman may feel afraid from the get go to ever express disinterest/dislike, so how could he or others recognize if he's coming on too strong? There's a boundary that's being ignored when he tries to strong-arm the situation, or "Take control". Space should be naturally given at some point. - He argued that the "Real" solution is another guy stepping in to "fix" the problem, which is assuming the biggest guy will be the most respectful... and might will correct the situation? It's a dangerous step from might-makes-right. I'd also argue that, if there's an "arms race" to hit the gym and get stronger, the people most prone to not respect law/order, are the ones most likely to use illegal substances which will tip the balance of power in the wrong direction.

[@dw_podcasts]

Your points about fear are right in line with what evolutionary psychologist Miriam Lindner said to us in our deep dive episode on masculinity (published before this video). Here's where she starts talking if you're interested: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f3ypq56gaLWKr7sfeature=shared&t=1169

[@KD400_]

​@@dw_podcastsfirst of all why is a woman described masculinity. Thats literally the no1 problem these days. What we need is a dominant capable man and a submissive nuturing woman. That way we can solve societys problems

[@dw_podcasts]

Hi @@KD400_, there's no agreement on the 'number 1 problem these days,' and defining gender roles for people - on their behalf, without their permission - contributes to the toxic part of the toxic masculinity discussion we had in this episode. It causes harm. - Conor

[@KD400_]

@@dw_podcasts and there lies the problem lol. U reject general roles.

[@abde4645]

1:03 how is anything in that definition considered "toxic"?

[@19Bigkid57]

This is where the parents are failing. They need guidance on what their heroes spew

[@19Bigkid57]

I used to have harsh opinions on the Tates( especially Andrew) , but I’ve kept an open mind and he makes more sense to me. If modern men are TOXIC to you, don’t pursue them.

[@user-eh2hj8bx6O]

The comment section shows how parents and society have failed our young people.

[@Punishment_for_Decadence]

Nobody should ever look to a porn star (or former porn star) for advice on relationships. Stirling clearly views relationships as being transactional, and especially in this interview you can see how his worldview is all about framing and power dynamics.

[@piretkivi3218]

I agree and disagree. And not because of moral values. Porn stars are...er...oversexed and must do things a lot of normal people do not do or do not do very often. This means that their starting point is not a normal starting point. It is much easier to be a virgin than sexually very active and then suddenly celibate (divorced men have a really horrible vibe for a reason). It is much easier not to eat sugar than suddenly give up sugar. But it is possible to become celibate and give up sugar. Since Stirling is a former (!) porn star, he might have reached some conclusions in his life. He also seems very friendly, emanates positive energy and has a strong character. A true sweetheart in my humble opinion. I would not take much advice from a porn star. I might take advice from a former porn star who has a strong and friendly character. And who is as handsome as Stirling.

[@trumoomoo]

I can tell that you guys are well-intentioned but you are also clearly biased uninformed or undereducated on this guy's content and the facts that back your own points. Also calling being confident toxic in any way is ridiculous. If you guys are going to continue to do this you really have to try to be better.

[@dw_podcasts]

Did you watch the rest of the interview? No one thinks confidence is toxic on its own, I wouldn't focus on that. In the context of the interview it's clearly one of the 'neutral' things that popped up during a grab bag discussion of his various toxic attitudes toward women. And we know he holds those attitudes (or at least promotes them) because we watched hours of his content and showed a few examples during the discussion. Would encourage you to watch the rest if you haven't, but if you have I hope this at least clarifies where we stand on confidence. It's great! - Conor

[@billusher2265]

You should interview Richard Reeves, he is outspoken on concepts such as toxic masculinity and male privilege

[@dw_podcasts]

Thanks, Bill - will look him up when we talk about this again. - Conor

[@piretkivi3218]

A friend of mine has a cat. The cat is very sad and crying all the time. Why is the cat sad and crying? Because his friend (also a cat) died. However, when the friend was alive, it was apparently pressing catch...er...pressing cat 24/7. Humans are somewhere between angels and animals. Yes, it is important to be kind and nice but we cannot fully enjoy our nature if we don't take into account certain other things. There are certain basic instincts. I saw the letters DW and thought of Germany. There is a book called "The Magic Mountain" by Thomas Mann. It is about rich people with tuberculosis. In a sanatorium in the high mountains. Most of them are about to die. Well, suffocate to death. Therefore some decide to have somewhat more relaxed moral values. They want to feel happy in a discreet way and start to sneak to each other's rooms at night. Let us imagine a countess. She is in that sanatorium and she might die very soon. She meets the three men of this podcast and decides to be happy before her death. Who is she going to choose? And no, it is not subjective at all. She would choose Stirling with a certainty of one trillion per cent. She would want that rough happiness. It is very likely that after her death Stirling would be sad. Just like the cat of my friend. The attempt to turn humans into angels ends badly. Humans cannot achieve that level and turn into sad shadows instead. It is much better to live as humans.

[@dw_podcasts]

This was a wild ride. I read every word not knowing what was coming next. I don't think we can say what a tuberculosis-ridden terminally ill woman would want in her final days - we would have to ask her (and others like her) - but I'm fascinated by how you took the discussion above and looked at it from the perspective of a classic German novel. Really interesting comment. - Conor

[@piretkivi3218]

@@dw_podcasts I'd like to hope that I would just want to pray and prepare myself for death (if I were that dying woman). However, if the process is long and scary and someone like Stirling is also in that luxurious sanatorium AND THE OTHERS WILL PRETEND TO NOTICE NOTHING, the temptation is very much there. It might be easier to step into the dark void if the level of happiness hormones is high. Well, that's how certain characters of "The Magic Mountain" seemed to think. And good for them! I am usually a very moral person but I will divert my eyes if a dying person wants to engage in certain immoral sexual activities. So would Dante! In his hierarchy of mortal sins, lust is less horrible than gluttony. God will forgive a passionate night with Stirling (provided both participants are single). He is less likely to forgive pizza and Coca-Cola. Pizza (at least fast food pizza) is a worse mortal sin than fornication. Bishop Barron confirms it in one of his lectures btw. So long live the Roman Catholic Church! The life of men like Stirling is definitely not easy. I don't think he can ever be in a faithful and monogamous relationship. Definitely not for long. I think Rocco Siffredi tried after he retired and ended up severely depressed. Nacho Vidal used cocaine, I think. The "normal" of such people is the madness of normal people. And maybe imminent death could justify a bit of madness for a normal person? Well, life is complicated but Stirling is at least refreshingly honest which is always nice.

[@ReneeStarr-tm5nh]

Porn actors shouldn’t give relationship advice nor woman’s needs .

[@dorotab2115]

It’s really sad to watch some influencers have no interest to understand what their content can cause. It’s literally a denial and deliberate actions to cause harm, and I’m pretty sure he would not care or come up with another excuse even if his content receivers were on that tape. “Teenagers are teenagers”? Seriously? I was a teenager, my nephews are teenagers and no one would ever say such things as kids on that tape. Quite that someone’s is a property in a marriage is out of context? What context would it be to change the obvious meaning of this? Balance through the centuries he mentioned? What kind of balance do you mean men? The one where daughters were sold (still they are being sold in some countries) for a men that owned them, women who could not work or own any money, have a voice in court or equal pay later in time. That what you are missing, I bet if that comes back he would be first to say “balance is back”. But you know what… I hate an idea of that, it makes me sick. It makes me angry to have such influencers around after who’s preaching I will need to respond to all those dominant men who think they can make women submissive or even come and speak to find out. I want to feel safe when going to a bar not waiting for a men to protect me, so will will end up in a society which you can see in some east countries where women can’t go out alone without a brother or husband, for they can be raped or sentenced if they do. I prefer to have around normal men who are kind and will not play dominant but approach me as normal human being with equal rights and respect of boundaries, same as I would approach them if I wanted to. Is that so difficult to foreseen, I don’t think so. Well thank you for this podcast, it means a lot for me this content is named and highlighted so everyone can see it’s not just “innocent and trying to be best of themselves” as I don’t care be whoever you please but this is actually a content where it changes behaviour towards women so also me and that’s scares me a lot!

[@abde4645]

18:46 great journalism (this is sarcasm). Come on guys you could do better.

[@Punishment_for_Decadence]

Also, you guys missed some easy gotcha moments. Like when he says those Sneako fans are 'just boys' and will grow out of saying controversial things for the sake of it, you should have brought up how he started the interview admitting that his twitter post was done for controversy... ie. he's a grown man still doing teenage boy shit. So whence does the teenage boy grow up and stop saying inflammatory things when he's proof positive against exactly what he is arguing?

[@dw_podcasts]

Completely agree - Conor

[@StillNotDead123]

get a life? instead of hating on the people you are jealous of

[@19Bigkid57]

Not all women resist being objectified…I welcome it( I’m ultra submissive). I’m also older and remember what gentleman were really like.

[@Jdngls]

Do you believe I. The easter bunny?. . . Well. . . I kinda have to. . . BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa

[@carolwilliams5390]

This is the first time he's been challenged by anyone with more than 1/2 a brain. Interesting discussion. Women and men were happier hundreds and thousands of years ago. Men maybe but women were not allowed any agency, not allowed to own property, not allowed to stop husbands from beating them, sometimes to death. Oh yeah Stirling sounds great. Also I'd like to have this discussion with a woman who can speak our facts, not toxic masculinity opinions.Thanks guys.

[@gardendaisy]

There are all kinds of men. I think its a good thing

[@user-gh1yk1cr9i]

Never listen to music when he was growing up I suppose

[@esraed7868]

As a woman I think you guys are sorry. Personally I would never take relationship advice from a porn star but you guys totally butchered this interview.

[@dw_podcasts]

In what way? We're interested in your feedback. We take it seriously. We just need examples so we know what you mean. - Conor

[@19Bigkid57]

I used to have harsh opinions on the Tates( especially Andrew) , but I’ve kept an open mind and he makes more sense to me. If modern men are TOXIC to you, don’t pursue them.