Can Europe's defense giants come together? | Business Beyond

[@johnjeanb]

Frenchman here. First a big THANK YOU for this very interesting and touchy subject. I think we globally need to pick the best specialist for each type of armament and have a "play the game" attitude when purchasing. In France, exports are crucial to keep prices down (France is the second weapons exporter) and we cannot be forbidden to export by a foreign government based on very "local / political" considerations. The content of the armament is also very important (American components will lock you to Washington decisions based not only on fair competition rules. We cannot accept to be controlled by our American friends. Lets compare with the USA: they cannot accept a situation where only one company has a monopoly over a type of armament (When Boeing is failing they purchase elsewhere) which absolutely vital for ANY industry (maintain competition). On the other hand, what is killing the EU countries is the excessive number of exact same equipment being developped in parallel (so the overall cost contains a too large part of development costs). So it is important to harmonize export rules and award European contract after an open competition to a real specialist. Last, countries have different needs France having territories anywhere on earth need to develop carrier-launched-aircrafts and cannot accomodate a development that does not provide an option for this. Europe (I think) needs to become a world's actor and so have control / influence over the world (Suez canal, etc) failure of which Europe could be in a difficult situation.

[@ericl6386]

Hands down DW is one of the best channles for quality documentaries

[@NatalieCooper-smith]

Fully agree 👍

[@kinngrimm]

They have those, too. I would rather classify this as a report though.

[@fuzzyspackage]

Hands down DW’s only redeeming quality is Steven Beardsley.

[@pinoyRN67]

how about Al Jazeera 😅

[@gizmo6746]

A little bit too left wing for my taste

[@HenriKesseli]

Countries like mine (Finland) do not have time for German and French squabbling in these matters. Shameful. It’s not just business for us, it’s potentially existential.

[@AN31DO01RR96]

Then rebuild (?) your own defense industry. No one should ever make their sovereignty and security dependent on foreign policy/foreign companies. Ukraine is now learning this lesson the hard way.

[@vipecrx]

French and squabbling? as a known producer you only have the choice of picking one of the producers. Everything else does not concern you at all.

[@HenriKesseli]

⁠@@AN31DO01RR96That’s why we do have a fairly broad defence industry here and in the Nordics.

[@dammitdan106]

Finland is 5.5 million people with vast border and seacoast along revanchist Russian empire. Finns need everything and everyone NATO can spare. They don't plan on being interior alliance's sacrificial tripwire population nor land to be conceded in peace negotiations.

[@smallpeople172]

@@AN31DO01RR96that’s the problem, all these countries have their own defense industry and the goal is consolidate into a handful of European defense contractors instead to save costs

[@SigmaOfMyParts]

I do not see a issue with buying systems from other member states. Buying systems from outside the EU however is not a good idea at least long term.

[@ryanwalters6184]

Yes the USA cannot even supply its own troops in war. Please build in the EU! I hope the USA buys the EU weapons as i bet they will be better also...

[@everypitchcounts4875]

US Lockheed Martin is working with Rheinmetall on a new version of HIMARS, it's called GMARS.

[@Vatnik_tschistilka]

Lockheed, Rheinmetall and Lufthansa are also involved in the German F35 program.

[@luffirton]

Good it will probably be even better than HIMARS and that is a very good and versatile system, one of the best long range mobile missile artillery systems out there.

[@drakehound2244]

Funny for a Deutshe News Agency, they ask question which are so ungerman, the German company like Rhein Metal are adapting faster then media. From 100k Shells a year Rhein Metal already went to 500k Shells a year, they are not even competing, they are cooperating, same way Sweden is making CV90 in Netherlands soon. Cause to the European Industrial Weapon industry, they see it as a NEED to make a stronger Europe, no longer the need to put national and self interest first. 130 mm Cannon while nice, isn't useful if we can't make 130 mm shells fast enough.

[@global-human3500]

One of the worst idea for defence cooperation. It kill the creativity and options available in market. For example : look into Airbus and Boeing. No innovation at all. Always burning money in the old design. Takes more time and money to do. Also the export potential goes down due to so many country having there own policy related to selling defence thing in case of war or other.

[@luffirton]

It absolutely will, like you say it will kill innovation, creativity and high quality options in the defense market of EU

[@AK-ej5ml]

Even if further integration is only marginally successful, it is yet another way that Russian agression towards Ukraine has helped strengthen the EU block.

[@milosmilojevic3506]

Not gonna happen

[@Leptospirosi]

France and Germany have always been the worst at cooperation on an EU level. The MBT of the sixties is an example, with the AMX30 (France) and the the Leopard1 going their own way. The NATO Light Fighter program, won by FIAT, is another example with France and Britain buying their own national planes instead of the winner of the competition. Transall was an economic disaster. France abandoned, in the drawing phase, both the Tornado and The Eurofighter, which later was purposely delayed by the Germans, which imposed "a revision to save costs". The plane enteref service 6 years later, EXACTLY as originally conceived, costing now more then it would have been. The reason was the Luftwaffe found itself with East Germany Mig 29 and wanting to use those, while Italy and the UK had planes WAY beyond retirement, but with nothing to buy because of Germany. The A400 Balooning to insane levels is another example. Airbus and the Tigre helicopter another sumptuous example of greed and Incompetence. Alpha Jet was another very unsuccessfully program, with both members being far from satisfied with the product they got. Now it's about the MGCS, from KNDS: Italy also needs a tank, but all negotiations were cut because Leonardo was not allowed to join the program. KNDS also refuses to localize the 200+ Leopard 2 A8 for italy which already have the Centauro B2 and the Ariete C2 programs and the Army needing a logistic coherent chain for the mateinence of its vehicles. The already financed purchase fell. Poland, willing to enter the program was also shut out and joined forces with Korea. This will cost Knds a say on the A2CS program, which is by far the largest in Europe, with 1000+ vehicles at stake as a starting order. Germany and France also are the only 2 EU nation not buying anything they didn't design, except when it's from outside (Patriot/Arrow) penalizing their EU allies and the chain of supplies. France and Germany are already bitching about the gun of the MGCS as they did in the sixties. The leopard 2 split from the US Army program and became really successful only when the unite Germany flooded the market with thousand of second hands vehicles at the end of the cold War. And then there is the absurd level of nonsense with the FCAS program, which is a clone of the British/Italian and now Japanese GCAP, but born a few years later: two similar concepts, for a limited market, but instead of joining, France and Germany went their own way. Both Germany and France seems to join international programs only when they can dominatebthe decision board instead of expanding the potential market for the product. This explain the high failing rate of multinational programs with the 2 nation involved, like bitching roosters. In the USA lobbysts fight each other to guarantee programs for their local industry, but in the end is the federal government which decide the winner and standardize. In EU and especially Germany and France, the state is the main Lobbyist

[@Ganymede559]

France & Germany are like a pair of harlots in how their leaders behave.

[@annan7728]

Europe is not independent. German is still occupied. Save your selves first.

[@Incorruptus1]

Playing them apart? LOL... Sometimes the odds need to change, before enemies in the past, can become best friends in future. Well... Germany and France are on the right track,...to become best friends. In fact Europe is growing more cohesive to begin with. And we aren't going to be played apart by people stuck in history. There is only one way, and it is forward. Baby superpower Europe is becoming a fine teenager, with a good and promising future ahead. I firmly believe Europe will stand as one, and can play a major role on this planet, already does, and aiming itself on independency and more scattered dependency. With all efforts done today and those ahead of us. We can be assured that we can grow hope into a reality. And we will.

[@Incorruptus1]

@@annan7728 You are living a fantasy. Keep it up!

[@JaysonEagle-l5p]

Europe can't beat the USA in a war, I don't why you feel so safe

[@30yoboomer]

"Yes, Rheinmetal is a potential consolidator. That is also from my point of view the recipe." - Head of the German Defence Industry Association

[@topistop270]

There is war in Europe, not "on Europe's doorsteps"

[@bachhongtran]

Hungary once said they were border defender of Europe in 20th century. I am not so sure the whole context.

[@danielkarlsson9326]

In Sweden SAAB has more or less merged together all the old classical producers like Kockums, Ericsson, BOfors, Docksta, and so on. I would huess we will see similar things happen in the other larger military producers around europe. Possible we will see diffrent regions merge together more and more. Nordic/British German/Polish/French /Chech and Slovak Italy and spain and so forth.

[@Vatnik_tschistilka]

That's what happened everywhere. You don't hear much from Messerschmidt-Bölkow-Blohm and Dornier recently. They are all part of Airbus.

[@gansior4744]

Knowing Germany and Rheinmetall, nothing will come out of this project

[@gerhardma4297]

blablabla... the only thing you know is, that you know nothing!!! What made you state this?

[@graveperil2169]

any indication that the current 120mm gun is not up to the job? is there a need for 130mm or 140mm which size and weight will reduce the number of rounds carried and complicate logistics

[@AmvC]

The impact forces grow overproportinally with weight and size - just like the defensive properties of hardened steel or multiple layers of era. The heavier shells are able to carry enough power _and_ carry sufficiently capable countermeasures (like tandem warheads). You'd have to make 120mm shells a lot longer in order to be equivalent to a 130mm or even 140mm one. The aim is not to carry as much ammunution as possible but to reduce the amount needed to take out a current and proposed future target

[@thegreatdane3627]

is the 120mm gun even necessary? Tank vs tank seems to be very rare, so the main target is infantry. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a smaller gun with a higher rate of fire and more ammo?

[@littlehumphreyton7580]

As technology stands, the laws of thermodynamics and ballistics make the 120 X 570 calibre ammunition a very good balance between onboard storage space, velocity, range, accuracy, terminal energy transfer, blast, and penetration, while still permitting a choice of projectile types… So until a more advanced generation of projectiles is available, which can utilise new materials or technologies which would permit a more advantageous calibre to be adopted, we are restricted to the current NATO standard..

[@dan7564]

@@littlehumphreyton7580 Yeah, the problem with the Panther is that it's 130mm Cannon was made for the new super Russian Armarta tanks that never got built and Russia recently came out and said they are going to stick with smaller cheap tanks. Meaning the Panther is at a handi cap because it can only carry less ammo. The French 140mm would be even more of a problem.

[@BatisteBieler]

When a 1500$ FPV drone can open those tank like a can of tuna, maybe the future of war does not revolve around 10mm difference in the canon size.

[@EUROSISChannel]

Good report!

[@Joey-ct8bm]

We actually have a joint tank battalion with Germany in the Netherlands, so giving us a frigate order is not weird. Joint Navy???? We are pretty good in building ships too.

[@johnallen7807]

The fundamental problem is the lack of money on defence for the last 20 years. Most of NATO still does not meet the 2% minimum and in the UK we need 3% for the next 10 years to undo the constant defence cuts and rebuild our defence industry base.

[@Joey-ct8bm]

You can do a lot with EU funds too. Just take the 300 billion that went to subsidizing farmers the last 5 years and you can do a lot to build a defense industry. It's time for farmers to know that we live in a market economy in the EU.

[@AGENDA_1938]

Excellent feature! Thank you!

[@AurediumRiptide]

To those saying that this would make Europe independent of the U.S. in arms production - The EU already largely is. We have our own tanks and fighters, we have our own ships. We buy weapons from the U.S. when the compliment our current arms (like the F35). Its why why have Leopard tanks and Leclerc tanks and not Abrahms. The only thing this article talks about is unifying EU arms productions to streamline it. Its not practical to have both Leclerc and Leopard tanks as you have to tanks with their own parts production and handling. It would be easier to have one tank that can be produced in large numbers and not have its separate logistical lines. This is not an article about moving away from the U.S. or the U.S. needing to take action on Europe. Such remarks are just designed in a feeble attempt to create a wedge between the US and the EU which would benefit Russia and China. Its complete B.S. as the EU has a long standing own arms production that never was a problem for the U.S.

[@nainex52]

yes i am sure that’s why US is doing 90% of the (foreign) heavy lifting in Ukraine - a European war. Independent? Don’t be delusional.

[@dan7564]

The EU can make arms just fine, just not at scale and in a hurry, or bring economies of scale to bare. That's why Ukraine was really dependent on Biden getting the republicans to pass aid. To be fair, it's been hard on the US too, at least in terms of artillery shells.

[@AurediumRiptide]

@@dan7564 True. (That was also not the core of my argument here btw). But unifying production in the EU to make the same weapon systems and same way of production will benefit the supply-chain. Currently we have a pre-EU way of weapon production.

[@thegreatdane3627]

@@nainex52 that is not even close to being true. The majority of the heavy weapons in Ukraine have been donated by European countries.

[@mossab8209]

There is a US base in nearly every European country.

[@oriusnex]

The obvious and necessary solution is increased federalisation and massive strengthening of a proper pan-EU army. Our enemies would love nothing more to see us disunited and weak. That's the political will we need, and would provide the real bulwark against divide-and-conquer tactics. Europe would finally be able to assert itself independently, and judging by the way things are going, that's sorely needed.

[@kordellswoffer1520]

Utter nonsense. People don’t want and shouldn’t want a federation. France can insert itself more than any European federal body ever could.

[@petervautmans199]

The defense industry has to take an example on Airbus, maybe even join Airbus

[@Leptospirosi]

A400? Tigre? God protect us! 😵‍💫

[@Carewolf]

Isn't airbus making the eurofighter, or is that just a parallel airbus like cooperation?

[@GreenOliveBranch]

@@Carewolf one of the makers, Eurofighter GmbH, BAE Systems, Airbus, Alenia Aermacchi, DASA..

[@davidlefranc6240]

They just need to build together the basic tank and equip it with their own tech, it need to be really modular to please everyone in the EU for their own doctrine !That way its gonna go faster its just my opinion .

[@mikevalentino2225]

Those are some sick tanks the drone deployment is brilliant. Probably less likely to be able to jam the relay if they have a person in the tank operating them but it would be kind of bouncy for that. Maybe they would be better off using a human / ai hybrid and even have a remote operator behind a desk like a video game player flying the drones. They should really match calibers of weapons like they do with the 556 and artillery rounds...

[@smallpeople172]

There doesn’t need to be a de facto fusion of companies if the companies simply work together on certain projects for a unified defense force, while also having some capacity reserved for national projects that aren’t focused on unified defense

[@hullutsuhna]

so, EU has a rule that says defence is exempted from the normal rules for procurement, but courts have kneecapped the rule & thanks to that the rule is now meaningless as defence companies can and WILL sue governments when they lose bids even though defence is supposed to be exempt. If only there was a law making it a capital offence to file frivolous lawsuits over defence contracts...

[@TauchTobi]

Make a prototype with the german gun and one with the french one. Then test them and decide which one is better. Is it this hard?

[@HedgehogZone]

No, because then everybody would know that only the german cannon function as ordered!

[@antoineadam4564]

Consolidation of the defense companies in the EU is a silly idea, just look at what happened in the US - it led to cost overruns, delays and dependencies on a single company. Instead of creating another million commities, councils that will slow everything down - let's spend more on defense and let national governments work together if they want to, without the EU adding bureaucracy

[@Oooooof2024]

Except US has actually fewer problems with cost overruns than the European nations while being able to build more advanced systems.

[@antoineadam4564]

@Oooooof2024 The US does generally build better, more capable systems than the EU nations, but it usually comes at a huge cost. The concentration of defense companies in the US has led to huge cost overruns because there is little competition for each weapon category (see F35, Zumwalt, etc). It's basically a case of creating a diverse and resilient ecosystem of defense companies that compete against each other. During the cold war, there were many US companies competing for defense contracts, manufacturing weapons and the cost overruns were vastly lower than they are today If the EU companies concentrated in a giant conglomerate, it's likely they could hold EU governments hostage and charge whatever they want, like what happens in the US already

[@luffirton]

You my man understand it, I totally agree

[@tonykalf5946]

What this channel forgets to mention, is that Damen is the projectleader, but all (at least 80%) is going to be manufactured in Germany. The other 20% are the costs of developing and detection systems Germany does not have. So, there is no issue here. An other fact is that many EU manufactures are cooping to build defense systems. Like Airbus does.. So, in my opinion, this doc is a bit over the top. We, Eu, are going to work well together as I see it.

[@Oooooof2024]

A brilliant video but it overlooks a major hurdle toward common defense procurement - variations in doctrines and therefore variations in requirements. If different countries believe they need a different tank, they are either going to order a different tank or compromise on a tank that is worse and more expensive than most individual national proposals. European military cooperation should start by acknowledging that we face the same threats and we will end up fighting them the same way. That is why our armies should be able to fight the same way and with the same equipment as well

[@operator9858]

but its not the same needs everywhere is it? and interests vary amongst different countries dont they? such alliances are great when times are easy but they fall apart like a house of cards when things get tough.

[@kinngrimm]

One can only overcome this by not giving in to nationalism and tribalism. Something we europeans seem to be very bad at, looking at election results. Then again, those results reflect the continuing failures of the formerly great/big parties. So aslong those wont solve their internal struggles, continuing to in some cases betray their core ideals and values, then i don't see this all getting better soon.

[@kordellswoffer1520]

Nationalism won’t go away especially since the eu is looking for more central power. Voters despite what you may think don’t want a federation and it won’t benefit Europe in anyway. It’ll destroy it.

[@ad_astra468]

First we need a common R&D, it makes no sense to have a bunch of different models within the EU.

[@JG-xi4tu]

I hope our cooperation will only get better🇪🇺❤

[@luffirton]

It doesn’t matter what is said here. if a country believes it’s high value military industrial complex is threatened it will either protect it through National security interests clauses or literally if necessary will subsidize one or many of them to ramp up production. This is national politics, security and economic security all intertwined and the EU can’t hinder a country to secure its own military industry without the block being forced to open proceedings and procurement contracts to every country and company within the EU single market. if the local industry produces many of the weapons and spare parts that the country already have or needs for its military it will continue to buy locally produced weapons, supplies and munitions, it will not change much if anything.

[@mattgordon9179]

You hear many politicians speak....."we are moving to interoperability" IMO Diversity is good as it helps with innovation but in the same time systems need platforms that work across the spectrum and are easy for the end user training and IT languages.

[@Jurjen.]

The EU needs to become a Federation ASAP so a European Pentagon can procure European military hard and software and force them to work together or merge.

[@fuzzyspackage]

No one trusts the Germans and France, plus they both denied UK having a say, so they lost us.

[@fuzzyspackage]

Poland/Ukraine would be the only candidates to unite EU

[@GreatRetro]

No, thanks!!!

[@Jurjen.]

@davedeville6540 The compatible US is very innovative.

[@kamerplanten]

Why not engineer a Gun Swap System. So there can be different modification with both French and German Gun. And it will be easier for future upgrades.

[@dissaid]

And yet...here we are.

[@MrSpritzmeister]

Coming together isn’t feasible, France and Germany are much too keen in pulling everything that is value added from smaller member states to them, destroying innovation in process. Ukraine war has shown both to be completely untrustworthy geopolitically, Germany especially so. Poland, Spain and Italy would be the same but have less means to pull EU resources to themselves selfishly.

[@gerhardma4297]

Where are examples of your statement? We would like to understand that.

[@MrSpritzmeister]

@@gerhardma4297 who’s we, or are you a royal? German economy is heavily export driven, with a captive market in the EU. This is mostly due to centralised value added production happening in Germany. As the leading economy on the continent it should have much more balanced export/import ratios than it does. On the other hand the Federal government is pouring billions in subsidies to build industrial capacity in alternative energy sector, whilst in the EU championing harmful environmental policies for countries that have been traditionally less populated/ less advanced. It’s highly likely that Germans would be using the nordstream pipelines had they stayed intact. In defence, it’s remarkable how low defence willingness Germans have. How could the peripheral countries trust German commitments, without US heft if the Germans aren’t even willing to defend themselves. Also the handbrake way that aid has been given to Ukraine is showing. The french have similar issues, especially with the agricultural subsidies etc. all these policies should look very different if we are to keep the EU intact and relevant coming together unfortunately.

[@mdmortuza3266]

With strong defense industries Europe can get independence from US 😁😄😃😀

[@mharley3791]

Good. Americans would love that.

[@prajwal1341]

​@@mharley3791Lockheed Martin says otherwise.

[@Dewayne099]

⁠@@prajwal1341 lockheed might….american citizens dont

[@levi799]

​@@Dewayne099Citizens maybe not, but their military leadership sure does. BTW, next time you hear a politician saying "we should not pay for Europe's defence" ask them if their plan is then to cut military spending after they stop being allied to Europe. Also ask them if it will be cheaper once China has conquered Asia and Ruzsia has conquered Europe. Will the war that follows after be cheaper? The war in Ukraine ha shown for instance that a few billion to Ukraine has decimated Ruzzian military leaving us military intact in case of a conflict with China, while the US normally spends hundreds of billions even while not in conflict with their main adversaries. Please, don't be fooled by politician talking points, the same ones that say they work for you and once in office they give tax cuts to the billionaires who end up paying well less for us military than you yourself.

[@artiefakt4402]

​@@mharley3791 Really ? I doubt capitalists would love to see their best clients move away from them... and as a result, if the American industrial complex fails to secure enough contracts abroad, increasing production's costs... the American taxpayer would likely end up paying more for less units. For example, if the F-35 is that cheap right now (even compared to older airframes such as Rafale or Eurofighter)... it's because many western nations are buying it (economy of scale).

[@ryanwalters6184]

Finally EU has woken up! Lets go!!!!

[@chandrachurniyogi8394]

defense vendors need to come together once again . . . like what they did with the Panavia Tornado IDS GR4 multi role interdictor strike fighter . . . or the Eurofighter Typhoon GR2 multi role air dominance fighter for that matter . . .

[@jrfsousa]

What is needed is standardization... Same specifications for everyone, then there's a market where everyone can compete fairly... For that to happen there must be a clear separation between politics and technical issues... Politicians decide mission, military decide means...

[@tomwobus1482]

9:44 Why would you join a game where only a few win but so many lose🤔🤔🤔

[@UndercoverPirate69]

Why not both both gun type with a modular mount?

[@moos5221]

Different size. You'd need double the stock of ammunition. It wouldn't make sense at all. They need to make a choice.

[@DavidSmith-kd8mw]

How about Poland? Isn't Poland's cooperation with South Korea a viable model for efficient arms procurement and defense industry generation?

[@Chris-zu4es]

the thing in between the storm shadows is that a 🚀 or just a fuel tank?

[@AmvC]

Love the japanese Toyota handler at 3:25 😂

[@L2Xenta]

If you love it that much, dont worry you can see it again at 16:34.

[@drakehound2244]

don't worry the Media is behind the curve, the Business in Europe isn't squabbling, it is the people in those country that are squabbling, change are always difficult for most people. Especially when Russia is so weak, but at the current time, the Weapon Industrial in Europe is doing a lot of things without self National interest, all over Europe. One thing that really helps Europe is that our top people are smarter, don't think Profit over Survival, cause they understand two World Wars are fought on European Soil. We need to prevent a third, at all cost, even if it means losing Russia for future plans.

[@mikulasadamek7349]

I feel like this is (just like the idea of EU Army) more about Rheinmetall (+maybe two or the larger French ones) getting rid of competition without having to compete, not defense or consolidatiom etc. In long term lack of competition have never ever led to anything good, this won’t be any different.

[@Hukkinen]

Economy, finance, and security should all be interdependent in EU: To replace the national production capability interests with common free trade within EU, the EU should guarantee the security of member states. Without these military and security guarantees, how can a small country become dependent on the companies in other countries?

[@chriscarrol9373]

"A Camel is a horse designed by a committee." Sir Alec Issigonis designer of the original motor cars the MINI and the Morris minor. My father owned both.

[@davidmayer769]

Yes

[@watcher5729]

Building energy independence hopefully to avert further conflicts

[@Cluster4SKL]

"none of the other big countries having it's own naval industry wouldn't do that", Sorry but the german naval order states it is for 5.4 billion euro, whereas another order of the dutch at 5.4 billion euro also went to a ship manufacturer of another country. It may not be a big country, but it still has its own naval industry that could have done it. This statement seems off as it is only based on some arbitrary value: "big".

[@JaysonEagle-l5p]

Germany and the USA can work together With the United Kingdom

[@galvinstanley3235]

Germany doesn't have this industry to help.

[@freezinginferno2106]

That bald head smooth af

[@aliancemd]

I guess make the companies/factories share locations in different countries, so whether France or Germany makes that gun wouldn’t matter, since both countries produce it.

[@Floren_Andro]

Yes... all that is very good... but... In the end it is always the same countries that "part, distribute and take the best part... We all know who they are... Those countries "that we all know" can buy arms companies from other countries but they do not allow the opposite to be done... for example. Those countries "that we all know" assign themselves billions-dollar projects and leave the crumbs (Pesco) for the rest... And still, the governments, press and other "experts" from these countries complain about the lack of collaboration from other EU countries???? 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

[@L2Xenta]

This is actually a huge political and geopolitical question ... "internally" in EU. Do you want to forever bind your weapons manufacturing capability to this European vision ? I'm sure many will also ask a few questions to their generals... even now as we wish for permanent European peace and prosperity. And to be fair it's probably not a very easy answer even now.

[@JaysonEagle-l5p]

1300 tanks in 1991, Now 246 tank's And they talk like a powerful leader

[@zawiszaczarny7876]

@militant_pacifist No, goes to show how corrupt some countries aka Germany were for years, while Putin invaded one country after another...

[@kindnuguz]

Defense market isn't on the same or equal footing as everything else and this is the problem. Until EU federalizes I think this will always be a problem. Look here in the US each state makes their own laws, taxes etc.. States are free to do basically what they want; while Federal is mainly funding, military and economy etc.. While we have National Guard for each state this is only domestic security and doesn't play a role outside the US. Federal is more or less in control of what the National Guard can procure through funding and the National Guard is a branch of the Federal institution. Until each country gives up these tools the rich will get richer and nobody else will be able to compete. EU needs to Federalize under one umbrella including all defense procurement. NATO needs to become EU's defense branch just as DoD is for the US Government. Look what ever is going on isn't working and while I applaud trying something different look at partners and allies for answers to what does work.

[@amunra5330]

The military industrial complex - the driving force of modern politics.

[@ANTheWhizkid]

The tank might be great, but why not mentioning the leopard2 as a failed joint venture too?

[@gansior4744]

Basically most Projects with Germany were hard to cooperate on lol

[@gerhardma4297]

@@gansior4744 Where ist your proof? We all want to get more intelligent? Or is it only that you hate Germany and live in a parallet Universum?

[@JOzzie-u8z]

Ill stick yo my new challenger 3s

[@AliKalu-l7f]

This is a story about how and why Communism failed in the USSR where I was born. When a state is planning and trying to build something. What happens is we are not letting businesses and capitalism optimise their costs and achieve a viable product.

[@davidblair9877]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but defense has always been a state-dominated industry. Rheinmetall, Dassault, and Krauss aren’t likely to sell Leopards, Rafaeles, or Panzerhaubitzes to Joe Schmö of Nowheresville. They sell to states. That means that states get to decide the specs they want. National governments always keep defense companies on a tight leash, too. They can’t sell to just anyone. No matter how much money Xi offers, General Dynamics won’t be selling Abrams to China. The U.S. DoD wouldn’t allow it. Same applies to European defense firms, too; Pstorias probably won’t allow Rheinmetall to sell to Russia, no matter how much Putin offers. TL;DR the defense industry has always been dominated by states, and for good reason. They are the primary customers, after all, and defense development is a matter of state security far more than individual security.

[@Rnankn]

Is it national competition, or private competition that impedes cooperation? Because why have national rivalries when your are member of a common defense pact? And why have private rivalries when defence is a public good? It seems like the profit motive is the death of all that is good, peaceful, and collective.

[@luffirton]

Are you really that naive that you don’t understand that nations want to secure high value good paying jobs like the defense industry in their own country. What is good on a continent level isn’t necessarily good on a national level and that is the issue, no country wants to lose or give up its defense industry to create defense companies that are large enough to make huge investments in new production facilities unless they are sure that when the company is bought there is a guarantee that some product from the company will be produced in the country to keep the jobs for its citizens.

[@drakehound2244]

So do you want a Tyrant Ruler who dictates everything? some people find that charming, see the rise of Authoritarian Regime, it is people choice, Others prefer countries into a Block like the EU, even Africa wants that kind of system. others prefer the USA money can buy you anything, but the poor are disgarded. and some prefer China where the states runs the People in a very strict way, but still listen to the people. and on and on the list goes. so far the EU is the most appealing cause we have 27 countries with 27 different cultures and 27 different political ideologie able to function, while slower then other systems, it still is working.

[@Jaglvnv]

In war time the eu should form an executive assembly of the leaders of each members government. This way they act and interact directly in order to make swift decisions on a mass scale.

[@chillxxx241]

Rheinmetall just bought a US manufacturing company.

[@morrisonmeister]

hasn't the current conflict shown that tanks are redundant?!

[@MotoRide.]

Not really. After the counter to drones (lasers, ewar etc.) tank is still irreplacable unit on the field.

[@gansior4744]

If you don't understand what tank is used for, and how they are getting destroyed, maybe you would think that. If every tank had a basic EW or APS kit, drones become a non issue. Also drones are used because both Ukraine and Russia are unable to wage a proper war, using all the assets interlocked. Same reason why we see so many Trenches

[@chigeryelam4061]

Total NATO defence spending is ~$1trillion pa. EU NATO members contribution ~$200bn pa. Do the maths EU and don't **** up a good thing.

[@abhishekbhattarai3375]

If european giants come together where will americans sell their weapons? do you think americans will tolerate losing their lucrative european market?

[@RopekingRopethemall]

They can't even recruit soldiers

[@maestrovso]

Britain is back to defending its island by itself thanks to the Brexit.

[@gigachadsitler]

As a man from Europe, i want to thank USA for security and india for sending oil and gas to EU for betterment of European people.

[@moos5221]

"As a man corrupted by Russia" ftfy

[@iam5085]

We don't need Indian (Russian) oil.

[@user333-us4qz]

Good news 😃

[@marcbjorg4823]

The German Navy would need new aircraft, but they refuse to buy French Rafale. Says it all...

[@thegreatdane3627]

why would the Germany navy need fighter jets?

[@dan7564]

does germany even have a carrier?

[@theonetruekirk]

Navy doesn't have a carrier. Maybe ground based to help cover the Baltic?

[@marcbjorg4823]

@@dan7564 , No. But the capability to land on Carriers would be useful.

[@graveperil2169]

@@marcbjorg4823 its alot of extra cost

[@craigpage2638]

It's like Hugh Jackman had a baby with Paul Rudd

[@LukeConnolly-kg7gz]

I would say in a perfect world intellectual property would be respected the problem being that not every country is on board or have different controls of protecting theft which may be either planned or not. Anything is possible it just takes good judgement respect and trust. On the other front If I was the US I would have put production on a war footing nothing wrong with being prudent cause now here we are. Future thinking would be nice not the here and now monopoly addition.

[@oludotunode]

The EU is not the largest single market. The US is still larger

[@Just_another_Euro_dude]

The largest among the independent countries. And by the population size USA is only the 4th or even 5th market of the world. Behind China, India, EU and i think even ASEAN got bigger population than USA.

[@oludotunode]

@@Just_another_Euro_dude largest single market isn't referring to population size. If that was the case, India would be the largest. Market size depends on financial power, and the US is far ahead when it comes to that.

[@Just_another_Euro_dude]

@@oludotunode EU is the largest market of the independent countries. Don't you understand that? How many kilometres of the bullet trains does that powerful USA got? Same like Burundi. EU got 5000 kms of bullet train network and 15 000 tons of gold reserves. That's more than USA and China and Russia COMBINED. You can never become a true green society without a huge bullet train network like EU already got. EU already started replacing the biggest poluters, planes, with cheap bullet trains. The worth of the accumulated wealth alone, in the form of the architecture, buildings, art, etc. makes EU sooooo much richer than any other part of the world. It can't even be described properly, the real wealth of Europe. Everywhere else it's only glass amd skyscrapers. Cause they got no historical buildings like Europe. Not to mention something like the Colosseum.

[@DrekRivers]

no nation should let the military industrial complex dictate them rules and impose a product at X cost. the military of the west cost way too much compared to china/russia/iran/north korea and so on. not only that, but we also can't produce them in a sufficient number and fast enough to match our enemies capacities. add the amount of soldier/human then can deploy VS ours and we are in deep trouble if only 1 thing is miscalculated

[@Kodakcompactdisc]

Most of the weaponry produced in the countries you mention is junk as we have seen in Ukraine. The so called wests military equipment is far superior so more expensive.

[@operator9858]

their only potential clients are those that have isolated themselves politically and those who have more money then sense. a small club indeed.

[@giovannidepetris6335]

Stop buying non EU weapons Depending on war theatres the weapons are different Don t see Poland needed Atlantic nuclear submarines or holland needing alpine troops. Start leaving those areas to the proper countries. At least start simplifying and specialize with compensation across borders I do more submarines you do more tanks and we sell each othet

[@duncansmith7562]

Russia is so far ahead of the EU in arms production, it is a joke. some deluded fools still think a few F16s will change the course of Russia's inevitable win!

[@dammitdan106]

Tell that to the Cargo 200.

[@duncansmith7562]

@@dammitdan106 no need

[@juancsmix]

were you one of those who thought russia would "win" in 3 days?

[@duncansmith7562]

@@juancsmix nah, those of us familiar with how Russia fights, we know there is no timeline. some of us knew that the aim was to get Ukraine to the negotiating table, and that did indeed only take a few days, but it was only fools in the West that swallowed General Milley's bs about "Russia winning in 3 days", I mean, not a fool like you, of course, but the rest of the Western sheep bought Milley's words hook line and sinker.

[@DMulabiTalejan]

I thought NATO weapons are standardised and interoperable. Why can they standardise and let more national companies produce the same things in a distributed form of production?

[@delta_glider4362]

NATO countries has completelly different rules of engagement (ROE) 😆 And you want them to make 1 standard socet or share 1 standard armor platform?

[@PAN-km5qk]

Europe should avoid the path the US-military industry took after the Cold War. Just ask people in the Pentagon how consolidation has effected their freedom of choice 😅😉

[@JaysonEagle-l5p]

At least Vladimir Putin has stood up for 2yr not 3 months

[@Akna6901]

he thought it will be 3 days, all i see is ukraine standing for 2 years not putin

[@Rollerblade7.]

that looks like COD modern war

[@johnwhitney2431]

Tanks won’t be able to make an impact on a war in Europe, just look at Ukraine

[@MAKAKA2024-b7y]

They must. We need USE. United states if Europe and Frau Meloni to become president

[@maf6856]

It sounds like its money over lives again

[@crevard203]

They just need to go American style capitalism, works for them... right?

[@venkateshpatil5387]

Eu has no guts to be war

[@wingtip76]

Build all your own weapons in house, one day your friends become your adversaries

[@adamredwine774]

All is a bit much, but the most important ones, sure.

[@karkevicius]

Bro this is Europe, not the Middle East😂

[@moos5221]

Russia talking

[@ad_astra468]

That’s why we need to work together, rather than developing 5 models of the same thing it would be much smarter to pool R&D resources together and make a single much better EU model for MBT, fighters, air defense systems, etc…production can still be within the country as long as it is the same model. This would also greatly improve logistics in the case of a war in the EU.

[@nausiacnausiac]

Y México ?

[@wilhelmvanbabbenburg8443]

The hawkish nature of european nations is coming back to bite them 😂

[@louistan7560]

Computer games.

[@TheBigruss10]

yeah Germany France and the rest of Europe need to stop trying to innovate on all kinds of new stuff and build what works in Mass quantity and supply it to Ukraine and think they're lucky stars that Ukraine is fighting the war for them good grief

[@I-LOVE-NORTHEAST-13-TIMES]

It’s so sad and heartbreaking for the people of Ukraine . Soldiers are dying and it’s all about business and industries for NATO and west. People of Ukraine please wake up, your human population and young boys are being used to fuel a billion dollar arm industry

[@WinterGK]

Russia is invading Ukraine and committing international crimes. There is only one monster. Stop supporting Putin.

[@ScottLSimon]

Yawn…Putin sucks

[@lappo2534]

Global laundromat continues unabated