E84 - INEOS flight problems

[@richardcannon7327]

Ine thing you appeared to have not noticed is that Ineos have more complex foils that their competitiors. They are a 4 piece flap to create variable camber. Also these flaps do not seem to be attached properly. You can see they have added a line of vortex generators ahead of the flap line. Poor fix draggy. I think they intended to maintain pitch by varying the camber and not pitching the boat. This gives them an extra degree of freedom over the other boats but this is also an extra level of control to perfect. I am an F1 aerodynamasist

[@andreafrequenti9673]

In queste world series ho scelto voi come commentatori,tutta un'altra storia.Vi faccio i miei più sinceri complimenti!

[@vdalbertas]

Grazie!

[@seawolfe6460]

Thank you for your expert views, observations and technical expertise. I do hope INEOS TEAM UK are able to resolve the issues and be participating fully and competitively by January 15 for the Challenger series.

[@ScottSummerill]

Thank you for the commentary. I was feeling horrible for Team UK. You guys are the only one (I believe) providing this kind of in-depth analysis. I love it. Now I need to learn to speak Italian. At the very least we know Britannia has less wetted surface than NZL.

[@zbeekerm]

Thanks so much for the English version!

[@williamware9443]

Thx for the English!

[@sailawayteam]

Very interesting, and thank you for taking the discussion beyond the common "oh bad foils" narrative. As you say the aerodynamics is very well understood, the difficulty is balancing those properties with the necessities of different points of sailing, speeds and manoeuvres.

[@vdalbertas]

Very good summary indeed! Thanks

[@JamesYoung61]

Thank you for another insightful analysis of a complex problem. Are you sail designers at Quantum?

[@niklasstrand9010]

very interesting and informed commenting! ...as a former Moth sailor I can relate to the importance of pitch on lift in various modes of sail... :-)

[@thomlee5478]

Thanks again for taking the time to do an english version of your videos! I hope you both have a great Christmas and a happy new year!

[@DaveandGinny972]

Thank you both. Found this most interesting. There’s been silly talk of changing the keelson along with other radical modifications but sometimes it can be the smallest of changes that can make the difference.

[@Fr99763]

Thank you guys. Hopefully Ainslie heeds your advice

[@mauriziocanale1669]

Siete due persone speciali non solo esperti e testimoni di grande amore per la vela ma anche due grandi sportivi degni di grande stima e ammirazione...ad entrambi i miei auguri di un buon Natale per quel che è possibile.

[@jeremywright7006]

Excellent analysis guys, keep it coming!

[@g3552-y5b]

Thanks guys, great insight well explained! Fingers crossed that Ineos does manage to pull it together quickly and that we see stronger winds for the remainder of the time down in Auckland....

[@joua72]

Siete diventati delle star in NZ. Very proud of you!

[@marcellobernabucci7970]

Well done Vittorio and Pietro, in English you will surely have more feedback and comparison with other sailors in the world

[@psneves]

As far as I can see their foil. they actually went WAY off flight mechanics. See. They have such "big flaps" that actually the center of effort is at flap section. It has lost the flap "definition" and now they have a camber changing foil. They have probably the thickest foil also. And I don't actually buy the Y shape. It creates a conflicting flow at the center where both' sides flows flow inwards thus creating drag and some lift. One more aspect. With the T foil you're able to also ventilate the outer/near surface sections easier thus reducing wetted area. I think their boat probably has flight mechanics far way different from others that others cannot help them with how to do it. They will have to sort by themselves. Thanks for the vid guys.

[@andrewpease3688]

This is also what I think has gone wrong, they've got themselves into a mess with fancy morphing structures and the controls for them.

[@grahamm2015]

Thanks for the analysis very insightful I have no idea if this is right but is a fair hypothesis. I did notice all of the teams can easily win or loose a race on boats handling, not the obvious falling off the foils but not getting smooth angles on the gybe. The time gaps are exaggerated as distance with the speeds they are travelling. Talking of which it was good to see the speeds they really travel at and not the hyped speeds some were quoting.

[@asterixdogmatix1073]

Thanks for the technical review!

[@mosca3289]

Thank you for the analysis.

[@andrewoconnor2720]

Thanks guys, very interesting as usual! Keep up the great posts.

[@patricialugo9679]

Great comments! Gracias!

[@MarcHillM]

Thank you for this, very enlightening. Your review of their "Eagle Wing" foils was really interesting and I wonder if they weren't able to use these as they would have to have made the decision 7 days before the race.

[@zbeekerm]

Part of the problem with INEOS’ take off is also their hull shape I think. I think NYYC and Prada Pirelli have a less flat fore and aft volume distribution when in displacement mode. This might let them use the rudder T foil to influence the pitch of the boat while they’re still in displacement or semi displacement mode.

[@maxhugen]

Good video guys, thanks!

[@myleswillis6938]

What a brilliant. Video.

[@digbyfox]

Interesting. Thank you gents!

[@budparer167]

Thank you

[@NickOakley]

(Former glider pilot and lapsed Aero Engineering degree here…) From what I see the ‘flight regime’ seems similar to a contemporary glider- Tail (rear foil) controls gross AoA while flaps control camber and lift coefficient. When flying slowly flaps are lowered a little which increases lift coefficient and reduces the need to fly nose-up. At speed, the flaps are raised a little negative- reducing drag and reducing nose-down. Is their flap setting vs. speed mapping what they need to sort out?

[@GordonMoat]

It use to be boat wetted surface area affecting speed. Now it seems foil wetted surface is part issue, though drag from positioning probably worse. Something mentioned before was centre of force on sails, compared to lifting force. My guess would be new foil shapes, or they need to figure out how to move the foil mounting on the hull. Maybe they can ask Mercedes F1 for help in hydrodynamics.

[@joblack3991]

In my opinion, the problem involves the rudder design in particular its wing. In fact, when INEOS is tacking or jibing in a very light speed wind the boat splash down starting from the stern.

[@cloudsculptor1]

That’s very interesting,Can you post a link to this actually happening ?

[@joblack3991]

@@cloudsculptor1 I am sorry but I don't have any material to support my opinion. My opinion comes from what I have seen on TV during ACWS match-race.

[@tullochgorum6323]

If INEOS can recover from this, it will make the Oracle comeback in 2013 look like a sideshow...

[@braydeny]

Im laughing so hard right now . It takes more than a few goes to win the Americas cup, ben may win it one day but not while he is on the boat.

[@cindyullsee393]

@@braydeny A few goes? The Brits have been challenging longer than anyone! But don't write them off anything can happen in development class, lest we forget San Fran! Anyway thanks to the video creators they do the best analytical videos, I watch them all, get on the plane & come down here I'm sure our lady prime minister will let you in as essential workers :-) Though she has some idiots working for her that stopped the youth AMcup but let in the Pakistani cricket team WTF!

[@DaveandGinny972]

@@braydeny he was on the boat in 2013

[@braydeny]

@@DaveandGinny972 ohhh yeah,,, totally forgot, But im sure he doesn't count that as a complete win, not being his team or country. That was the legendary Russell Coutts's team, Jimmy gets credit for that as well.

[@MakaiMauka]

I think more camber in main and jib; along with less aft mast rake will have a big benefit for INEOS Team UK

[@kennysender6804]

Be surprised if they can fix this issue. There’s going to be severe trade offs if they do . Looks like they have a £130m lemon. Let’s hope they can really sort it before January....At this stage of the cup no one should be going back to the drawing board only refining and tweaking what you have .

[@braydeny]

Does the flat part of the Skegg or hull suck the hull down and prevent it from pulling off the water.

[@forestboy52]

I think that it is a mainsail control issue. They can’t power up the main enough or quick enough to drive the boat out of the manoeuvres.

[@CarkeekW]

Maybe the centre of lift is too far forward creating something similar to a plane loaded with too much cargo aft, eg crash

[@daveroberts1099]

Hull shape ? Inos looks less wing like than the others .

[@simonecavazzuti6528]

Se scegliete di fare video solo in Inglese (scelta che condivido), vi suggerisco di inserire dei sottotitoli in italiano ;-)

[@davidtsereteli4148]

Thanks for all your excellent work and commentary. I have a question - Do you think that the size of the INEOS' foil flaps, which is fairly large as % of chord, could just be limiting the applicable wind range for these particular foils? My guess is that under certain conditions (i.e. using these large flaps to create angle of attack good enough for lift-off in low wind range), the laminar flow over the upper surface of the wing (suction side) detaches too close to the leading edge of the wing. In this case, the wing could just be wasting most, if not all, of its suction effect.

[@giuseppeaccardo8580]

That's an interesting point of view, but then how do you explain that NZ are super quick and performant either in high or in low winds with very narrow and long foils? They have narrow leading edge as well as narrow flaps, so if ur reasoning is correct they should have good suction effect but low lift power, which is not the reality in the end cause they can fly pretty well even in low winds. At the same time I wonder why don't the other teams make narrow foils like them, reducing drag and gaining speed? Maybe they won't be able to "fly" like this? So what is the NZ secret? Maybe they have huge power coming from their ssles that the other boats don't?

[@davidtsereteli4148]

@@giuseppeaccardo8580 imho, windsurf foils can be a good comparison. Compare windsurf race foils vs freeride foils.. so it seems ETNZ foils should be good at speed, but could be difficult to manage when wind is tricky. I don’t know etnz secret. Most probably the secret is a lot of practice. All in all, i hope it will be a fun competition.

[@paoloradaelli7120]

You have been very generous with poor INEOS, but in essence your interpretation is hard to believe. The advantages of the ‘nose down’ attitude have been understood ages ago, and, to your credit, beautifully explained by you in a very early video. The only disadvantage of it, i.e., the larger frontal cross section and hence the potentially higher straight line speed of a flat attitude, il clearly not enough to compensate for the much higher take-off speed of INEOS we’ve seen in the World Series. INEOS must have had the data about the take-off speeds of the other boats in all conditions, all you need is a Zodiac and a speed gun, so they must have known the extent of the disadvantage and potential embarrassment. I cannot believe they set this up deliberately, especially in the first confrontation with the others. The explanation must be different, I think. Perhaps they found that nose down is unstable for them, but this is also strange given the bow shapes. Can you elaborate a bit more?

[@giuseppeaccardo8580]

Ciao Vittorio grazie come sempre per questi interessantissimi insights. Una domanda: se Ineos UK non riesce a navigare con un pitch anteriore o posteriore a causa della sua instabilità e anche dei suoi problemi e gestire i foil e quindi il tutto li rende non solo lenti ma anche poco in grado di volare, allora potrebbe essere che Luna Rossa, che invece riesce a gestire bene i foil, è più lenta con venti forti proprio perché semplicemente come Ineos non riesce ad avere pitch anteriore? Io non la vedo, anzi, non l'ho mai vista navigare con prua bassa in nessuna condizione, cosa che invece fa soprattutto tantissimo Patriot e che secondo me dà loro un bel vantaggio aerodinamico quando il vento è forte. Cosa potrebbe fare Luna per abbassare di più sta benedetta prua ed essere competitiva anche ai limiti alti del vento? Cioè la barca attacca bene l'angolo del vento ed ha una buona VMG ma la velocità pura è costantemente 2 nodi sotto rispetto a NZ e forse anche a Patriot e questo è un problema enorme perché non si può vincere l'America's Cup sperando sempre che ci siano 7/8 nodi di vento.

[@vdalbertas]

Ciao Giuseppe, io credo che il punto che sollevi sia il medesimo che anche noi abbiamo rilevato su Britannia, plasticamente evidente. Anche Luna Rossa, infatti, pur navigando abbastanza bow down, non è così estrema come Patriot o ETNZ. Potrebbe avere a che fare con un attacco di foil meno angolato anche in questo caso, credo che i ragazzi di Luna Rossa stiano valutando appunto di ridurre leggermente la superficie dei prossimi foil e di aumentarne l'angolo di attacco, cosicché la vedremmo navigare a prua più bassa quando è in velocità

[@giuseppeaccardo8580]

@@vdalbertas sempre se poi con foil stretti non perdano il loro vantaggio di manovrabilità in venti deboli, cosa che invece NZ sembra mantenere anche con i foil stretti. Loro sembrano avere un segreto che li rende potenti e veloci ma anche abili in manovra con vento basso. Dicevo in un altro commento che forse riescono comunque a navigare bene anche con 6/7 nodi perché le loro vele in qualche modo sviluppanno "cavalli" in più. O magari sbaglio, però da qualche parte un segreto c'è.

[@mscari]

Looking from outside, it looks like they have too much drag from the shape of the hull. Their hull has a large flat surface area that acts like a brake at low speed. I do not see how they can improve that in the next weeks. Too bad because we want to see boats that are all competitive.

[@gergggerrg9667]

Interestingly enough, when they were in the race with NZL and neither boat was foiling, INEOS was quite a bit faster. That led me to believe that their hull was not the issue, layman's opinion though....lol

[@MrDschubba]

Aircraft generally provide a negative lift or downforce at the stabiliser for stability. Once foiling are these boats providing an up or down force on the rudder foil?

[@ScottSummerill]

I’ve also been wondering exactly what roll the rudder plays. Why any foil at all? Seems to me it would just add drag but it could also help balance the boat. I believe our boys mentioned this but I’ll need to listen to the commentary again, and again ...

[@irocketit5986]

Scott with no foil they wouldn't be able to control the pitch which is quite crucial

[@ludofeyaerst]

Ragazzi, a leggere diverse testate in lingua inglese sembrerebbe che siano stati due "Italian expert" a risolvere i problemi di Ineos. Ne sapete qualcosa? 😀

[@vdalbertas]

Ahahah sicuramente è colpa di Pietro!

[@paoloradaelli7120]

There is another seemingly puzzling issue. The whole point of using a low foil-AoA is that, everything else being equal, the lift and resistance generated with a flat attitude is the same as in nose-down at higher AoA. However, INEOS seemed to have a lower lift even when it was flying. As you explained, their arm was less extended and did not generate negative leeway as Patriot did, for example. Although the take-off speed could be lowered by increasing the AoA and stabilising their nose-down flight, the other issues do not seem so easy to solve.

[@Multiverse27]

I Bow down to you both 🙂

[@joblack3991]

Regarding the functioning of the rudder and its wing I think that to get more stability during tacking or jibing it would be interesting to know if it's possible to separate wing action, essentially it must stay ever orthogonal to the boat axis, from an addionanal vertical flap that works to change direction of the boat. If the rudder designers are able to implement that the boat should be up on the foils more easily.

[@gollumaccio9833]

I media neozelandesi vi stanno citando 🙂💪

[@Windof]

Sì ma hanno tradotto male alcuni punti.

[@gollumaccio9833]

@@Windof solo il fatto che li abbiano citati in nuova Zelanda è tanta roba.😁👍💪

[@Windof]

@@gollumaccio9833 sì, però lo hanno fatto alla maniera giornalistica di sensazionalizzare le cose scrivendo: italian experts claim to have discovered... cioè sostengono o affermano di aver scoperto i problemi di Ineos, ma non è così, si stanno solo facendo ipotesi senza nessuna pretesa di affermazione.

[@gollumaccio9833]

@@Windof aaa beeeh certo, da li a risolvere i problemi di un progetto visionando un video...neanche Gesù cristo può.

[@neilstanley5565]

Almost sounds like you know what you are talking about, There are a lot of Kiwi's still waiting for an apology from your statement that Team NZ copied all the other boats which we know is not possible considering the time schedule of the build process

[@ChrisPlow]

Great analysis, if anyone has Ben Ainslee’s email address could they forward this on!🙃 Sorry for my ignorance but I don’t know these guys but they clearly know there stuff, Mr Ratcliffe get your cheque book and hire them sooner rather than later !

[@OffWorld66]

www.sailweb.co.uk/2020/12/22/americas-cup-solving-ineos-team-uk-foil-problem-the-italian-job/ Siete mitici

[@massavecio1449]

non dormo neanche alla notte a pensare ai problemi di Ineos...poveri

[@Nobilangelo]

The radical shape of their hull also seems problematical. It does not look right, it lacks the fluid lines of the other boats. It looks as if it was designed by a committee that could not agree.

[@ScottSummerill]

They "won" the wetted surface competition with NZL in Race 1 of the Christmas Cup. The problem is with the foils as Moat and Salvatori have elaborated on above. I think they pushed the envelop with the foils and now have a beast to tame, and not much time.

[@giovanniallegro3790]

Peccato, peccato che non conoscendo l'inglese, come parecchi milioni....la maggior parte degli italiani , per capire quello che dicono 2 italiani, si debba ricorrere ad un traduttore simultaneo che comunque fa traduzioni oscene, ma l'oscenità sta nel sentire 2 italiani che non si fanno capire dalla maggioranza degli italiani anche se appassionati di vela che seguono questa gara dove compete una barca italiana. Scusate la mia ignoranza e quella di molti altri italiani. VERGOGNOSO

[@lafanfafra]

Ne bastano 4 boni: kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6DGdnqshpZjhac

[@brandonbra5223]

Molto interessante ma in inglese anche no.