Early Church Fallacies in The “Once Saved, Always Saved?” Documentary || Were They Always Right?

[@JeremiahPMensah]

If you'd like to study eternal security in more detail, I created a free resource to help you do that! You can find it at jeremiahmensah.com/osas

[@user-wn2gg8ut4e]

The early church fathers were still human, and humans do not know it all. The Holy Spirit teaches us. What is most important is the doctrine of Christ. We will grow, and learn as we stay in the word☝️🙏☝️🕊️💯❤️

[@milosuchihaserbiamc9083]

Did Holy Spirit give different teachings to each protestant denomenation? Once saved = always saved didn't exist till 16th century

[@kathyhenderson8902]

Amen brother, the early church fathers were no different than false teachers we have today!

[@96tolife]

Why do those who say we can lose our salvation always default to this idea that OSAS is teaching we can "live any way we want?" I think they are telling on themselves. What they seem to believe is that unless there is a threat of losing salvation hanging over their heads, they will live any way they want. They are admitting they don't live in freedom. They live in fear. Fear of punishment. Fear of condemnation. It is so exhausting.

[@jenaichung8375]

I had a conversation with someone with that mindset and rebuttal… so you can be saved and sin all you want!🙄 no. No one who is truly born again thinks that way!

[@jsbc1988]

I just left a church like this. The Pastor a former Catholic and now a Charismatic preacher preaches this same narrative every week by proof texting the same isolated passages Sr Michael Brown does. One common denominator is that both saved Jews like Dr Brown and saved Catholics like My former Pastor do not believe that Jesus Christ One sacrifice paid for Our future sins. Only those up to conversion. The future sins have to be confessed and repented of from which Martin Luther once said was equivilant to mopping up the floor while the faucet was running. 2) both Brown and Our Former pastor quote Hebrews 10:26 ad nauseam without mentioning the fact By ONE sacrifice By Christ perfected forever those who are sanctified and by this one sacrifice we have permanent forgiveness with no further need for a sacrifice: Hebrews 10:17-18. Ironically the verse they are quoting actually applies to them because they are sinning against the knowledge of Truth (10::10, 10:14, 10:17-18) like the Hebrews were in this passage who were viewing the cross through an Old Testament lens. Catholics and Saved Jews never stray to far from their roots. They still have the leaven of a works righteousness , and a Forgiveness That come by installments 3) There were Pseudo Christian groups like the Libertines who Peter was alluding too in his second epistle who were false teachers of Grace that believed once you were saved you could live anyway you wanted. Jude also was dealing with them in his brief letter. Bottom line is that keeping believers bound up in fear of loosing there salvation does nothing more than rob them of peace and rest.

[@JeremiahPMensah]

Ikr. One of them said verbatim that believing in "conditional security" is what keeps him from sinning. Yet he already admitted that he still sins lol. So is he not living any way he wants?

[@96tolife]

@@JeremiahPMensah The double-mindedness is obvious but they don't see it.

[@codyclark5995]

Ive been in "Western" Church history a lot this season. The first error is when they say the "Church" started in Rome/Byzatine when it is clearly stated it started in Jerusalem Augustine i wont discount his role in preserving the church/gospel. I will say he did bring a lot of Platonic (Greek) philosophies in the Church.

[@dustinblake3115]

Really appreciate your commentary and break down on this documentary. I came to the understanding of the gospel of salvation in 2020 and a lot of the church leaders in this documentary are some of the ones I followed early on. And unfortunately it made my early walk very difficult because I struggled understanding their message with the understanding I had from reading the New Testament. I still enjoy some of Good Fight ministries documentaries and even have paid for one, but at this point I treat it as any secular media. Which is unfortunate. Regardless, thank you for covering this - May our Father in heaven continue to bless you through the Holy Spirit till the return of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Bless you brother

[@JeremiahPMensah]

Amen! God bless you too!

[@deniecemock7181]

I think a deeper understanding of Salvation-Gift vs Disciple-Rewards needs to be understood. Citizenship in the kingdom comes through faith in Christ alone. Position within the kingdom is by the good works that have been set out before us. Mixed up all the time. I know I did and still do sometimes

[@TestiMoney-BibleCoins]

The guy at 9.40 should become a Roman Catholic priest because he is teaching the same thing Grace plus works. Jesus paid it all he finished the work but this guy wants to throw at least some of his own works in to help out and to "attain" salvation. Just one little work thrown in blows it and makes it all of works. Romans 11v6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Great video Jeremiah glad I found your channel God bless you brother..

[@JeremiahPMensah]

God bless you too!

[@timothy925]

If you're the only one who interprets Bible passages differently from the Church Fathers regarding this major issue, you're most likely wrong. There's no concept of OSAS in the earliest Church writings, so maybe you should change your theology a bit. Luther never taught to not listen to the Church Fathers, he endorsed others to read them and take things from them. Idk about you, but it would be scary to teach something different from what all of the Church Fathers agreed on and didn't differ.

[@JeremiahPMensah]

the problem with this position is that not ALL the "church fathers" agreed on it

[@timothy925]

@@JeremiahPMensah Which ones?

[@Ehaubiel]

Do you have a video on James 5:19-20.

[@dustytrout5]

But, say they [others], the catholic Christians have Christ for a foundation, and they have not fallen away from union with Him, no matter how depraved a life they have built on this foundation, as wood, hay, stubble; and accordingly the well-directed faith by which Christ is their foundation will suffice to deliver them some time from the continuance of that fire, though it be with loss, since those things they have built on it shall be burned." (The City Of God, 21:17-20, 21:22, 21:26) Augustine seemed to have seen Christians who believed in Once Saved Always Saved.

[@GRACE4LYFE]

The vast majority of these people who think there saved are gonna be crying out lord have we not done these things the vast majority think there the few on the narrow path but are not because rhey dont put there salvation solely on Christ.

[@rozznel8692]

● Then Peter said unto Him, Lord, speakest Thou this parable *unto us* [pros hēmas], or also to all? ... Blessed is that servant ... *but if* [ean de] that servant ... my Lord delays to come ... and will appoint him his portion *with the unbelievers* [meta tōn apistōn]. - Lk 12^ 41...46

[@jasonengwer8923]

There were some church fathers and others who believed in some kind of eternal security before the Reformation. I've discussed some examples in a four-part series at Triablogue titled "Extrabiblical, Pre-Reformation Support For Eternal Security".

[@steverentfrow2415]

Thanks. FYI, I couldn't find it by searching the title you listed. I had to search your name and found your blog. If one searches "Triablogue," then they will find it. Thx again! I look forward to reading your stuff when I have time :) 😊

[@JeremiahPMensah]

I checked it out. Thank you for sharing!

[@steverentfrow2415]

I've been reading them. Good stuff! I'm interested in the doctrine that held to baptismal regeneration and never losing it because the believer is "sealed." You touched on this is part 3. I wonder how many held to this type of position? Thx again for the education.

[@jasonengwer8923]

@@steverentfrow2415 Given the popularity of baptismal regeneration in later centuries, I'd expect most proponents of eternal security to have accepted baptismal regeneration in that context. It's unlikely that all of the pre-Reformation advocates of eternal security did, though, especially earlier individuals. The evidence suggests that Clement of Rome didn't believe in baptismal regeneration, for example. If you're interested, I've written a series of posts about the history of belief in justification apart from baptism. It's also at Triablogue and is titled "The History Of Belief In Justification Apart From Baptism" (posted on February 5, 2023).

[@osked202]

I've read the church fathers. Baptismal regeneration is not related to eternal security

[@deniecemock7181]

Amen!!!!!

[@maxellton]

When you said, "If they don't believe and teach what is presented in the Scripture," you are actually saying, "If they don't believe and teach on MY interpretation of Scripture," because, at the end of the day, if you don't agree with them, it is because it does not match YOUR interpretation. So, now the question is this: Why would I take your interpretation over the Church Fathers?

[@JeremiahPMensah]

You wouldn't. You would study the Bible for yourself and see what it's actually saying. And if we're being fair, that means you wouldn't take their interpretation either. To begin a documentary with what "church fathers" said rather than an accurate division of scripture is problematic.

[@maxellton]

@@JeremiahPMensah " study the Bible for yourself and see what it's actually saying." Ah, Solo Scriptura. Come up with your own interpretation and ignore Church history, Tradition and early Christian beliefs. " And if we're being fair, that means you wouldn't take their interpretation either" But if the majority of them are saying the same thing and considering that a number of them lived during the apostolic period, then they are more believable than you. Let's take St. Irenaeus on his writing about the Holy Eucharist. He is the student of St. Polycarp, who in turn is a student of St. John, one of the Gospel authors. So I would believe him that the Holy Eucharist is indeed the body and blood of Jesus Christ, not a symbol, as most Protestants claim. BTW, even the Protestants cannot agree whether it is just a symbol or has some kind of presence there, and they are reading the same Bible.

[@JeremiahPMensah]

@@maxellton ok fam

[@matthewbrown9027]

Paul wrote to the Galatians 5:16-21 These verse said if one lives in these sins that a person can't inherit the Kingdom of God. Then Paul give the fruits of the Spirit after the works of the flesh. Paul never said one can live in these sins but if you trust in Christ "Death, burial and resurrection you will still inherit the Kingdom of God. That goes against Christ(GOD) and Paul teaching. If faith in Christ alone is true, then remarriage after divorce is ok. Even if Jesus said remarriage after divorce is adultery and Paul said in 1 Corinthian 7:39 only the death of the spouse can one get remarry. I say, if one has faith they would obey Christ and Paul teaching and that would be works. So, faith and works is true. No one should said I have faith but willfully live in adultery because someone said you can't lose your salvation. That means obedience to God words is not useful but only believe and that it. I would be scare to tell someone that OSAS is true!!!

[@CharlesLeroy-mp8lk]

By sins very nature, when anyone sins it's not the new man that sins but the old man. However, if the old man is sinning then that individual has resurrected the old man and now they are the old man again. No man can serve two masters, a good tree can not bear bad fruit, Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. The old and new man are two completely different individuals. Only the new can be saved. The new man is Chris manifest through you. The mind of being and living like Chris is itself the offspring of Gd. The offspring of Gd is Chris in you the hope of glory. So it is a contradiction to seek to be born of Gd and seek for redemption WHILE having zero intent to change your mind to be and think like Chris. The NT calls Js the Way, Truth and Life. It also calls him Eternal Life. Do you actually believe Gd gives believers ownership of Eternal Life ? Obviously we don't own Him but He owns us. Also, Js will still remain Eternal Life with you or without you. Would anyone say that Gd hasn't given them eternal life since they haven't yet lived for all eternity ? If no, then why would you say you haven't received eternal life if He can be taken from you or depart from you ?

[@letgodbetrue8864]

Osas does not reflect the nature of God. The Bible says that God is love, and forced love is a contradiction in terms. Because He’s love, He doesn’t force us in any direction. He gives us free will to choose whether we want accept or reject the gospel, and continue or depart from the faith. Osas teaches that once you’re saved you’re always saved, even if you don’t want to be saved anymore ; and that’s forceful which makes it ungodly.

[@JeremiahPMensah]

I explained the free will fallacy in the video. You can't will yourself to be unborn from God the same way you can't will yourself to be unborn from your earthly parents. Free will comes in when you hear the gospel. Do you choose to believe it or not? After you've believed it, it's not about free will anymore. God says He will be faithful even when we're faithless. It's now about His promise.

[@letgodbetrue8864]

@@JeremiahPMensah Respectfully, the fact that God speaks expressly that some shall depart from the faith(1 Timothy 4:1), proves that free will doesn’t go away after we get saved. Also, the fact that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever; means that He doesn’t go from being a God of love, to being a dictator, who forces us to stay in His house

[@JeremiahPMensah]

@@letgodbetrue8864 depart from THE FAITH. Not lose salvation. The problem is when people make the Bible say something it's not saying. Someone can depart from the tenets of Christianity but if they were really saved, God has already secured them

[@letgodbetrue8864]

@@JeremiahPMensah Grace and peace, to depart from the faith, is to no longer continue in sound doctrine/the gospel of Jesus Christ. Salvation is the deliverance from sin and death, through faith in Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit was sent by the father in Jesus name. So then, to depart from the faith, (the gospel) is to no longer have the salvation process at work in you, and to no longer be sealed with the Spirit; because salvation and the Holy Spirit are apart of the faith.

[@Sunshinen32]

"For it is with our hearts we are justified and saved." Are sins are forgiven so the Holy Spirit can dwell within us. God is a Holy and Perfect God and it says by our HEART we are justified and saved. ONLY the Lord knows our hearts. We have to trust that he will give salvation to those whose hearts are truly accepting of His blood and Word. The Lord knows all and I trust as well he knows who he is giving this eternal salvation to. There will be people who claim to be saved, but it is only by their hearts they are justified and that is up to God alone. If you have truly recieved the grace and gift of God. You are spiritually alive . He can't depart from you. He will never forsake you. If you look all throughout the new testament the Holy Spirirt came upon people at different times and in different ways. That is the Lords doing not our own. As we continue in the Truth and seeking Him, he will be found and he will save you. This is another teacher who speaks on this topic. www.livinggodministries.net/living_god_ministries/radio_archive/always_saved.htm

[@aidanmcmanus2752]

The bible doesnt teach unconsitional salvation. Thats why Osas is a mistake.

[@steverentfrow2415]

The argument is that the Bible does teach it.