Echoes of the Eye: Commentary and Critique

[@mobugs]

i figured out the solution to the fireplace room because I experienced the owlks vanishing while exploring the dream world. it was the first hidden room i was able to reach. on hindsight I thinks it's pretty obvious to figure out if you ever experienced getting waken up by the dam breaking. each player has a very different experience when playing the game, where it's the players own bias and pre conceptions that blocks progress. I think the devs made a stellar job making the game open up no matter what order or choices you make. there are always outliers of course, I've watched many playthroughs where others get stuck on places I immediately figured out, or vice versa, where they figure out things it took me endless attempts. my tip would be. trust the game, if you are stuck, take a step back and rethink.

[@burgscratch6301]

I figured out that you can still be in the simulatiom after death because I thought to tempt fate! See, those totems that made the loud ringing noise? I was afraid of those almost as much as the Strangers, and MAN did I piss myself whenever a Stranger was in sneezing distance from me. After a while, I decided "You know what, I am going to trigger the alarm and see what happens". The alarm woke me up, and THEN things clicked! I remembered that the Strangers are all dead, I saw that the totems sounds were actually the bell that rang above the fire, and then I discovered for myself that "Hey wait, if that's what the totem does, then there's no way the owls would know the alarm was set off. They're all dead, so they can't hear the alarm..." Man I felt proud figuring that one out by just observing and not forgetting those details. Outer Wilds is the best game I know.

[@electrum5579]

I found the fireplace solution because I tried rushing it with all the guys still in there, got grabbed, and right before my flame got puffed they all evaporated in front of me. Then I woke up underwater because I slept in the first area, but that was a cool moment

[@briandawley7808]

This is the same for me. I figured it out because I'd figured out that you could summon the raft to float between areas, and had myself been awoken by the dam breaking. So I just opened the door then went to a different location and waited until the dam broke. I never actually made it past the bell sentinel, but while trying, I was getting annoyed at having to shutter the lantern so I was like, maybe I can just set it down as I explore so I'm not constantly having to close it. Then when I got far enough away, I literally thought I'd encountered a glitch in the game, lol. I took screenshots immediately that I was going to run and post to Reddit, like omg did you guys know this? I think I did a quick search online and found, oh, it's an intended mechanic, not my own unique discovery. In any case, I ended up visiting the end place and realized I could use it there so I never bothered trying to get past that bell sentinel.

[@SoulSukkur]

I played post-updates. I'm also a horror coward, and I absolutely hated the horror pivot. You say you got used to the scares. I didn't. I was near paralyzed by virtual Owlks right up until I got to try the nightvision glitch. Knowing what they do to you helped a bit, but I never dulled to that feeling of being pursued, the risk of broadcasting my location just to see where I'm going. But putting down the lantern, that feeling of all that fear melting away, made the anxiety-riddled hours prior worthwhile in retrospect. I was better able to appreciate it thematically, about how the story of the Stranger is a story of fear. My love for Echoes, however, is most tied to a moment you didn't mention. After the prisoner uses the projection staff to tell you his story, what earned him his sentence, he hands the staff to you. He lets you tell /your/ story. You tell him he, and everyone he once loved, has been dead for longer than one can truly fathom. You tell him that a clan of another civilization met a horrid end by his hand, the end of a road devoted to trying to see his dream through. But you tell him his act of defiance, of hope, which condemned him to literally hundreds of thousands of years locked away in despair, you tell him that someone heard him. He set in motion a series of events littered in tragedy, but also beauty. You were now able to stand on their shoulders, walking down the ancient path they forged, which would soon unite you with the Eye. The universe will be born again, because of you, because of the Nomai, because of him. And what does he do? He screams. He lets out a wail of anguish, finally able to let go of his despair, his hope. With that, he has nothing left to hold onto. /That's/ what allows him to finally extinguish his lantern, which he does after seeing the outside world, the facsimile of his former home, one last time. That moment gave me something I needed, the thing I yearned for most in the base game. It gave me closure. There were so many things I wanted to say to Solanum, Hell, to Chert, just to talk to them, tell them what's happened, what's happening, what will happen. Echoes gave me that moment. Sure, you can't beat the game after meeting the prisoner. Canonically, he rots in that cell a bit longer, until the Stranger runs out of power. Nothing you did, saw, or said in the DLC ended up mattering to him. That's okay. It mattered to me.

[@ivanything1016]

Beautiful comment

[@SoulSukkur]

@@ivanything1016 it's been a week and that still makes me smile. thank you for being nice to me on the internet.

[@Ic-gv2eo]

​@@SoulSukkur And I agree with them!

[@musikh2698]

Perfectly said! It's beautiful!! Makes me tear up

[@dogemaester]

Thanks a lot for sharing, although I don't get why you can't beat the game after meeting the prisoner? Because you can't fit that process in 22 mins?

[@ReavoEnd]

23:20 "While I appreciate this as a puzzle now that I know the solution, I wish the other two dreamscapes had something like this to solve, rather than just being uninspired stealth sections." > Oh, but they did! I, too, was disappointed by the "uninspired stealth sections" at first, especially as I got stuck trying the Endless Canyon over and over again. But then it hit me... As other commentors have mentioned, you can bypass the majority of the Endless Canyon's stealth stuff with a little outside-the-box thinking. When I had this revelation, it put a huge grin on my face and I felt that the DLC had redeemed itself. Before the patches, the Starlit Cove also had a puzzle of sorts. There was some geometry you could jump down from the entrance, and it bypassed all the stealth sections in the area above the well. I made use of this when I played, but they patched it out eventually. "Consciousness just fades out, which is pretty underwhelming compared to getting swallowed by a star going supernova." > This transition is a hint. This happens because the entire stranger has piloted itself outside the range of the supernova, so your consciousness transfers to the next loop via the Ash Twin Project. "Now you might be thinking that discovering these glitches would open the virtual worlds up... But no, you're basically done with the virtual spaces now." > Quite the contrary. Finding the matrix glitch gave me a means to overcome fear of the dark. It allowed me to observe the movement patterns of the Owlks in the Starlit Cove from afar, without being caught, and to plan my way through it. The matrix glitch enabled me to clearly see where the procession of Owlks were going in the swamp area, the secret way to the house which I never found before it. And it let me see the hidden path across the Endless Canyon which leads directly to the elevator--a welcome shortcut. This gives you the quickest dream world raft access of any other location in the game. I used the Endless Canyon as a home base for solving the swamp area puzzle, and for experimenting with the Starlit cove during the few minutes its abandoned after the tower topples.

[@OrigionalCigarette]

The Echoes of the Eye DLC sets one of many pristine examples on what a DLC should be, especially ones that server as expansions. It does not feel cheap, at times, feeling ever more creative than the base game itself, which is already a high enough praise. the story *perfectly* loops back to the main story seamlessly, and answers questions we were left unanswered.

[@onyxtay7246]

Your memories being sent back in time to the start of the next loop is something that happens in the base game if you get far enough out of the solar system. Like, it's what happens if you're on the Quantum Moon at the 6th Location. Because whether that version of you continues existing is irrelevant - the memories you've gotten during the 22 minutes are still sent back. Additionally, I think it's important to remember that the DLC doesn't _entirely_ end when you find the Prisoner. You can meet them one more time - by the campfire at the end of the universe. They're hiding off in the woods, still ashamed of how their people caused so much harm by hiding the Eye. You can invite them to sit with you and play the song to birth a new world.

[@Trevan2412]

I will add just for the lore that you being sent back in time even when out of range of the supernova matches the moment where the mask holding your memories is destroyed. As stated by the Nomai, the chamber is able to *temporarily* resist the blast. I have personally experienced this end of loop once in the base game when I followed the probe for the whole 22 minutes.

[@dryptosaurus]

Two notes that I have. It is possible to get to the hidden area inside the well, by waiting for the flames to be snuffed out by going there before the flames are out, and only starting the "stealth" section once the tower falls (by this point you're lantern should be in the cliffside building). Also while I agree that it's underwhelming, it's important that the character doesn't die to a supernova, but to your memories being transported, because I and others though that you were teleported to the Owlelks' homeworld, in which case your memories on the previous loop ending would be an acceptable explanation, while dieing to a supernova in another solar system at the same time, would be weird.

[@mobugs]

yeah I think having the fireplaces on the stranger be put out at different points of the loop is a very clear hint that you can use that to your advantage

[@leedlelel2373]

the loop ends like 5 seconds after the tower falls though, so its quite literally impossible to get the info there

[@dryptosaurus]

@@leedlelel2373 Nope. The tower falls, and immediately the music starts. So you have the time of the music, plus the supernova expanding all the way (since we are only pulled back by the Ash Twin Project). It's not much time, so you probably only have time to watch one slide, but it's possible.

[@leedlelel2373]

@@dryptosaurus its not as satisfying nor does it feel intentional, since you have no time to just, well, take your time... and also the music from the slides are entirely muted, which makes them kinda lame

[@gottagowork]

All of it has multiple approaches. One player I've seen never figured out the code to the temple basement, but was still able to find all the hidden locations through pure persistence. * Shrouded woodlands become obvious to most I've seen once they accidentally catch what happens when the dam breaks, and the door becomes obvious the first time they navigate back to find it closed. * If you do discover the artifact glitch first, navigating, discovering the surroundings, and observing the owlks patrol patterns will help a lot in the others. It will also help discover some *REALLY* useful shortcuts. * The majority of the stealthy section in the mansion can be skipped, with only the downstair owlk to outrun - no need to activate the bridge in the dark at all. If you have done the shrouded woodlands first, finding this solution is easier as it is similar; involves activating the bridge while lit, to get to and sending the elevator down (if you don't know the shortcut yet), jumping in the water, turn off the lights, jump in the water, then accessing the area from another entry point. Granted, I've only seen this done once, and the thought process *IS* a bit on the convoluted side. But it's there. * I've also seen one player figure out the dying thing by accident, which made the starlit cove easily accessible without even turning the lights off.

[@MekaDragon87]

Nice videos. Regarding the stealth segments, I skipped the chateau one just by thinking! I lowered the lift in the back of the house, blowed out the light, traveled to the tower green flame, accessed the house from behind and with the elevator already lowered, I just had to enter the house from behind and that was it. I learned about the matrix bug there that really helped me traversing the tower one. At first I also was a bit disappointed with the stealth segments but after a few tries I thought "hey, this is Outer Wilds, there has to be another way", and I was right lol. Anyway, I loved the DLC as well, and the ending is beautiful... you forgot to mention that you can gather with the Owlbro at the ending of the core game after finishing the DLC and that's one of the best moments of the DLC!

[@Erumore]

A few other comments have mentioned the alternative solution to the hidden gorge section, and while I never found it myself I'm glad it exists. I think the main issue with the stealth sections is that it introduces an element of mechanical skill to a game that was previously all about knowledge and problem solving. When you fail a stealth section, it's hard to be sure whether you failed because you just made a small mistake, or because you're supposed to be doing something completely different. I didn't mention the new ending with the Owlbro because I thought it didn't change that much, and for many players of the DLC I think they will just stop after freeing the Prisoner. I kind of wish I had included it now because you're not the first commenter to mention it, but c'est la vie. I appreciate the comment and I'm glad you enjoyed the video!

[@MekaDragon87]

@@Erumore thanks for answering! Both of your videos are very nice and I agree with most of what you say (your "open world problem" in the previous video nails it). And yes, I think the"true" ending with the prisoner is the icing on the cake and should never be skipped once you freed him. Keep it up with these kind of videos!

[@atkvin]

​@@Erumore Just to play devil's advocate, the basegame does have several puzzles that can be completely overcome by mechanical skill too, just that they test platforming and ship flying instead of stealth mechanics. Namely, these are: the Sun Station warp tower cacti parkour, flying your ship to the Sun Station directly, parkouring/flying your ship up to the Black Hole Forge, or using the black hole's gravity to slingshot up to the intact Quantum Tower on BH. The difference is that only the first one tends to mislead players into thinking they are being tested, and failing most of these puzzles' mechanical tests punishes the player heavily - restarting the loop, or forcing them to paddle back to the WHS to warp back to BH, encouraging the player to think more critically about the puzzle. Though I don't think a heavier penalty would be helpful in this case. More could definitely have been done to set the player on the right track - for instance, if the across-world raft on the Hidden Gorge was not gated and instead readily accessible, I wonder if the player might have been more likely to catch on the existence of an alternate solution, and from there, start to think outside the box for each section. Also, the second area can actually be loopholed using the first area's method you mentioned - it just leaves you with too little time to watch the three reels in the archive. A kooky idea I had was to use the prototype artifact that explodes to blow up the tower in the real world - causing it to deliberately fall into the water much earlier, thus allowing the player to raft over and explore unimpeded. This would require a few tweaks to facilitate, such as making using the prototype not kill you instantly and somehow communicating this obscure easter egg mechanic as useful, and ideally making the tower fall on its own without help later than it currently does to discourage brute force - but this would develop and distinguish this solution from the first area's by allowing and requiring the player to control when the tower falls.

[@Euthymia]

I didn't find the story to be as linear as you say. I went back and forth and up and down all over The Giant Space Donut. This might be because I'm more dense about picking up clues from the artifacts left behind (I had that issue with the base game as well, I just had a hell of a time connecting what was described in the Nomai writing with things I should be doing). But I even first entered The Stranger from the hangar bay that faces Timber Hearth, the that puts you out a tunnel at the foot of the dam just upstream from Ye Olde Artefact Hut and Ghost Matter Tanning Resort. I only found the other hangar via exploration, from inside the Ring Resort. I ultimately couldn't figure out the Pirates of the Caribbean dark ride logistical stuff (like where and when am I supposed to be asleep or dead and where and when are the Jerky Owls supposed to be dead or asleep or awake and am I supposed to do this in the regular dark ride world or the one I go to when I walk off the raft in the tunnel?) so I figured out how to release "Number 6" from their cell by reading walkthroughs. The initial three dark ride areas were ultimately so baffling that I had walkthroughs open on my second monitor and STILL couldn't complete them. Up to that point I liked Echoes even better than the base game. I couldn't get enough of those light-steered whitewater river rafts. As I say, the problem ain't necessarily with the game, I just seem to have an especially weirdly difficult time getting what the Outer Wilds developers are trying to tell me. After all the spoilage, my thoughts weren't "shoot, I should have figured that out," they were "how in the hell was I supposed to know ANY of that??" Like Echoes of the Eye exposed a learning disability that I had been unaware of up to this point in my life. Maybe my years working in corporations numbed me to absorbing anything useful from slide presentations?

[@jeffdunhamvevo953]

Damn I may simply not be a person that gets frustrated easily, but I didn't experience any of these issues you and seemingly most others had. I genuinely have absolutely zero negatives about this game, my experience with it was completely flawless, so it's interesting to find that many had these issues with it. If you consider the base game and the dlc to be different games, then I would say they are my favorite and second favorite games ever, and also lightyears better than my third favorite game. And also about the horror, I don't really think of it like that. I personally loved the stealth sections since they relied more on the terror of not knowing where the spooky ghost birds are instead of jumpscares. I wouldn't analyze them as horror sections as many other did. I would say this dlc is one of the scariest games I've ever played and I can still barely make it through those sections because it's so terrifying. I loved the fact that this dlc uses fear as a gameplay mechanic, much like how subnautica did for me.

[@EvanG529]

While I didn't play the release version, I never found the fireplace puzzle very challenging. Perhaps a backwards NPC by the fire would have changed my thought processes. I agree, it's weird to have two puzzle solved by stealth but the third in a completely different way, but I didn't have to stretch my imagination much to come up with the solution after being woken up by it and hearing their death screams. Something I learned from the first game is that the solution never requires banging your head against a wall for hours. The stealth sections themselves I didn't find too bad. Fumbling around obstacles in the dark concealing my lantern was frustrating at times but I felt added tension to the climax of the horror that had building over the whole DLC. And I found the enemies refreshingly intelligent: Drawing them away wasn't as simple as shining your light once and walking away; they would keep moving and scanning around for you, often meaning it was hard to truly break line of sight as they shined their lights around. I think the fact that the pursuers don't explicitly "jumpscare" you is a good thing. Yes, being caught is not super scary after the first time, but I think it's supposed to be that way. They scariest parts are trying to evade them, so they make the scary sounds when they start to chase you, adding to the horror of trying to get away. In other words, the lack of scares upon getting caught will not detract from the scares of being chased. And fortunately, I didn't have much trouble getting around them so the frights never turned into frustration. As far as the DLC feeling "detached" from the base game, the DLC always felt to me like Outer Wilds 2. It has a completely unique story with gameplay progression totally separate from the base game. It was obviously meant to be played after the base game; giving a new way to travel directly to the Stranger was never meant for the base game and serves as a simple and forgettable way to keep the progression going at a reasonable pace. The lack of death at the end really didn't bother me either because that exists in the base game. Sure it's anticlimactic but still makes sense in-universe as your memories are sent back in time (it's not a time loop, but memory time travel).

[@bradcogan8588]

Man, you deserve a lot more views and subscribers. Great content!

[@Erumore]

Thanks for the comment! I'm truly grateful for the support and very happy to hear that you enjoyed the video.

[@herrzyklon]

​@@Erumorehonestly mate, I just found your channel and I'm so impressed

[@galfisk]

Man, your game is bright! I followed the screen settings guide at the start, making a dark pattern just barely visible. This made the stealth sectons so dark, and a lot more difficult, but they became so very atmospheric! I had chills all the time playing them. The lantern light having such short reach made it work like lights in nightmares i had as a kid - always insufficient at dispelling the dark. Some of the metals in the stranger looked amazingly alien, absorbing almost all light except for the specular reflection. The breach was a lot harder to find as well. I don't regret playing it like this, although I had to look up solutions for the well and the fireplace due to frustration. I missed learning about the lantern glitch for the longest time due to thinking that reel was too high up instead of jumping to grab it. I'll have to go in again in order to explore the various locstions more in matrix mode.

[@LB_]

23:15 actually, Endless Canyon has an alternate solution that uses the raft to avoid the stealth section as well, and I don't understand why the devs didn't pivot to encouraging that solution instead. You can send down the elevator, then turn out the lights and arrive by raft, and take the elevator back up. Much better and more clever experience than the stealth section.

[@SeekerOf7ruth]

There is also a hidden bridge that lets you skip both the stealth section and the effort of utilizing the raft + elevator method. Not sure how many folk are even aware of it at all. Edit: Nevermind, don't mind me. I had yet to reach the section of the video in question beforehand. 😅

[@LB_]

@@SeekerOf7ruth Yeah, every area has a total bypass like that. The knowledge you gain from the forbidden archive lets you easily revisit said forbidden archive. The only way to discover the bridge you're referring to is with the knowledge from the forbidden archive it helps you skip into.

[@SeekerOf7ruth]

@@LB_Well, less and no. I know a handful of folk who discovered that glitch in the simulation all on their own by dropping their lamp and experimenting. My gf did when she thought it would make it easier to stealth along behind the Owlks in the lowlands section.

[@LB_]

@@SeekerOf7ruth Yeah, it's entirely _possible_ to discover on accident, but not intended. The devs employed a lot of tricks to try and reduce the chances of it being discovered accidentally. For example, the ability to put down objects when you're in the 'real' world is pretty generous, you don't have to look down very far and you don't have to be still. Additionally there's usually plenty of light and you have a flashlight in your suit. In the dream world however, it's very dark in most places, encouraging you to cling to your light source, and the prompt to put down objects doesn't appear unless you look rather far downward and are standing perfectly still.

[@EvanG529]

They didn't encourage it because it's a workaround, not the intended way.

[@fissionphoenix4995]

I played the DLC after the changes while also playing in VR. Being immersed in a game that was already immersive without VR (as was how I played through the base game) and jumping into VR for the DLC was an extremely rewarding experience as I deal with horror with a degree of amusement at the natural human reflexes that allow it to work the way it does. One of my favorite moments was poking around a hidden area and getting found by one of the birb-bois. I did some dodging and weaving and taunted him for missing me only to be picked up from behind and realizing he got me after all was probably one of the more entertaining parts of me streaming that game. I meant to edit it like I did with the base game but I really ought to just upload the unedited footage to youtube at this point assuming it is still preserved on twitch at all.

[@GrandNoble]

So story was well explained. I agree with all your gripes stated, but i so loved it and think it's amazing even with the flaws. The greats supremely outweigh the flaws.

[@tomobrouns8586]

SPOILERS at 9:06 you say that nomai aren't shown outside of their spacesuits, but there are skeletons of them everywhere(without spacesuits, such as in the museum), and illustrations they made of themselves(in and out of spacesuits, such as in the sun station). not a big problem of course but just wanted to mention it

[@noob_jr_2sjrkc]

I had the opposite experience with the stealth sections because I did the puzzle one first, and was subsequently disappointed that the others forced you to do stealth. The 3rd one does have a puzzle solution, but by the time I figured that out I was already tired of trying the stealth way. I would have preferred it if the "glitch reels" had been reordered so you could actually use each one to solve another area, granting them more use than just overcoming the passwords. As it stands, I can't shake off the mixed feelings on this DLC because I do not care for stealth/horror and it felt like a massive pace breaker. Also, it bothered me that the player character can't just take away the dead's artifacts and dump them in the river before going into the simulation.

[@cinthiaMP]

if you did that, you'd be technically killing these people, even if the player didnt realise it the first time. it'd kinda ruin the message of the game

[@tahunuva4254]

​@@cinthiaMPI'm curious what you think the message of the game is. If the player goes through with the intended ending, it's clear that they have zero regard for the suffering of the entire universe they help create.

[@TCrag]

If you haven't played it befre, I recommend Thief 2. It is right up your street. Looking Glass Studios in the late 90's embodies the game design principles you have mentioned in your previous videos.

[@gruetwo3424]

Early 90s too I'd say. System Shock 1 actually has a sort of similar progression to Outer Wilds imo, with audio logs playing a similar role to the translations of the latter in providing knowledge needed for progression in a fairly organic way. The Thief games do a better job at the fully immersing the player in a given role thing that Outer Wilds does tho, and both using various systems within the environment to accomplish this which the player can take advantage of in various ways via experimentation

[@meneither3834]

22:00 I really have to disagree here, the shrouded woodland is an puzzle that relies on the time-loop mechanic and not an action focused stealth section like the two others, so it's more resembling the puzzles of the base game. Together with ir's great presentation (going up the stairs to the full room) In my opinion this is the best of the three areas. Overall I find your criticism very unfair there. And there was a ton of stuff to clue you in, you absolutely did not have to go check online.

[@Erumore]

My problem with The Shrouded Woodland puzzle is that it's pretty much the ONLY part of Echoes that requires you to make use of the timeloop, which means that the rest of the DLC hadn't prepared me to think of the loop as a potential solution. I would be willing to say this is my fault, but the fact that the other two areas can be completed with stealth also strongly implies that the Woodland should be completed with stealth too, which I feel comfortable saying is a flaw in the design. I don't know if you played the DLC before or after the patch, but it really was very unclear how you were supposed to get through the cabin in the original release, and the existence of the patch is clear evidence that I wasn't the only one who had trouble with it. In terms of presentation, however, I agree that the Shrouded Woodlands is my favourite of the three dream areas. Thanks again for adding to the discussion.

[@meneither3834]

@@Erumore The woodland kinda require stealth as you need to follow the procession. But it generally is the first level one discovers, finding it last might have given you a wrong idea. That said you kept hearing throughout the whole DLC the dam breaking through the dreamworld and the screams of the strangers, and knew about the raft that gets you between instances.

[@samburgess7924]

You 'can' solve the other puzzles in this way, leading to interacting with no bird boys in the first zone (the lowlands), the 2nd zone (the tower) and finally the 3rd zone the canyon you deal with one, the one at the bottom of the resort that is basically behind you and you can miss entirely if you don't look back. Though it's unclear and I only realised when I routed a path for my GF to avoid as many as possible, having completed the game and already discovered the solution to the first and considering how the 2nd is also flooded at one point, and that the 3rds 'river path' leads almost to the end, skipping the stealth section to create the bridge. You must: Open/extinguish the door to the raft in zone 1. Summon/illuminate the dock in zone 2. Summon/illuminate the bridge safely in zone 3, (basically do the stealth section before stealth was needed since lights are on) then drop the elevator down. They were all really cool solution and would have been nice if they were the intended solution, similar to landing on the suns station or jumping up to the black hole forge, brute force/mechanical skill is a fun solution but should clearly be a designed but unintended solution. I brute forced the angler fish much like feldspar, and a friend brute forced the jellyfish just via considering every interaction within the sea, not wanting to leave due to a fear of water and tornadoes and having played the game enough, chose to break her immersion and brute force it. Ig that's not unreasonable for someone in a time loop. Also I disagree with the waypoints being bad, since they only really point to a planet, not unlike the map, TELLING you to use it is a bit on the nose though, though other solutions I think of are lame and reduce the terror of just seeing it for example. I loved the 2 hangers and somehow it didn't occur to me that I was approaching from a different side, I was a bit frustrated that my friends first experience was getting through the hanger door only to immediately have the house taken by the dam, the dam locks the door normally preventing this, but she had perfect timing causing her to panic since again fear of water, after I said she'd be relatively save on the rafts to reassure her. Funny unintended interaction. I also like that you can learn of sleeping with the artefact early on by being observant in the reels, before the lab (I failed but friend didn't). That lead me to finding the lab and having to be 'hand held' more than her. She also found the first secret campfire room when the dam took out the lights but was too scared to explore. Eventually she figured out about the artefacts and knew only of the diving bell camp fire, Imagining that she could have found that secret set my mind abuzz. Also you find out about the dream world at the canyon the 3rd location, but the only open fire is at the diving bell the 4th location which tells about about the tower's secret room. Meanwhile the first dreamworld clue the game offers is at the tower ie the 2nd location. Then finally you get to the lowland first location, the only location you can get caught without having done the real burning rooms since the others require learning of the secret paths to turn off the lights, the secret bridge or the secret hand pull boat bit. Shows very good design, divergent and emergent solutions.

[@ChaosXeloc]

This was an extremely entertaining review, as many of my thoughts and experiences mirrored your own almost 1:1, from being enamored with the base game to the disappointment with the DLC, bashing my head against the fireplace puzzle (I will defend you on possible obtuseness with that one) but NOT struggling at all with the (infamous at this point) tower puzzle. However, I frighten easily, so the stealth sections got me badly enough that I vowed to finish the DLC in one sitting and never return, which only added to my personal frustration with the DLC. I've come around to appreciate the themes and story presented through gameplay in Echoes by hearing what others have had to say about it over time, but I still had a poor experience with it on launch. I'm glad many things have been tightened up with it, and I'm having my partner play through it now, after they seemed to enjoy the base game (but you are right, the DLC is so separated that my partner never pursued its mysteries throughout the whole of the base game). I recommend checking out About Oliver's playthrough, as he is someone who played with the DLC in tandem and it changed his perception of the narrative as a whole. Thanks for the video! I'll be checking out more of your work for sure.

[@snizzle6174]

So, I feel like commenting because I was someone who (either because I'm way too afraid of horror but determined to finish outer wilds or just because of how it happened) only had to deal with the horror chase once in the whole game, for the secret library hidden under the bell tower, In fact I found the matrix glitch almost immediately. I found it wierd when I saw that extra pathway in the first place, but I really appreciated it as a reward for my own creativity. The lantern bug I did figure out using the meta knowledge that being able to place down the lantern *had* to have some purpose, but I had also clocked that dead people shouldn't be able to hear the bells in the real world, I just didn't understand how I supposed to die (this was actually the most obtuse puzzle for me, and the only thing I had to have my friends who were watching nudge me with). having said all that, there were a few things that aligned for me to discover those how I did, so I get calling it unreasonable. For me the biggest thing I wanted was that extra exploration in the simulation, but I really just view that as asking for more content, and I think that's sort of always possible to ask, always good, and not very interesting in a discussion about game design. Really we should be discussing what mystery they could have hid in those new places, as that's what would be critical to making it.

[@Apparat8]

Good video. I kinda thought you were a tad harsh on this DLC, but I do agree that most people got at least a little frustrated with the stealth mechanics. They did a good job taking in the feedback and improving the experience later on. Even the ship's computer was much better, playing back the slide reels and giving you better hints without rehashing what you've already seen. 31:20 They also added something else to clear that up. When you first encounter the prisoner, and die or hit the next loop, the Echoes of the Eye title and logo appears before it does the usual Nomai mask rewind. It's just a little hint that you've completed the main goal and are finished with the DLC. Of course, you'll still want to complete the game again after that.

[@guilhermemoro4706]

Yeah, I agree with the point you made here, although they didn't messed up my experience at all, i think a little more playtesting before releasing the dlc would have done the trick, and some of the stealth sections could have been bipassed if the order in which the secret reels were presented, changing the way you approach each forbidden archive

[@Fa1seP0sitive]

Part of it comes down to DLC being on a tight time limit. They started it about a year before the game released and couldn't work on it as long as they could with the base game. The base game had many of its ideas set in stone by time the alpha released in 2014, so it had much longer than echoes of the eye to be polished.

[@Maxran50]

I had a funny experience with DLC i want to explain: Firstly, i did notice owlks getting the artifact and setting it on fire. So i tried to replicate it. HOW? Fire must be on the artifact... Place artifact on fire do nothing... Maybe i have to hold it? DEAD. OH WAIT! Yes, i entered a LOT of times in the dream world dying. I literally did not know that i could sleep to enter it. Then after a few times in the dream... i took out the candles by myself in the loading zone. YES. I discovered 2 bugs by myself. Main problem was that when i reached the archieves, 2/3 were "empty" for me because i already knew that. The main problem is what you just said. Stealth zones and the code to the burn house should be a typical Outer Wilds puzzle and not a code or a repetitive zone. I loved the idea of things that happens in the dream world happens in the real world but that was not repeat it again. GREAT VIDEO!

[@Maxran50]

About the owlks ideology. They thought that the Eye was a Universe bomb, like the Interlooper was for the Nomais. However the Prisoner draw the "flower growing from the skull" and understand the real meaning of the Eye. You know what fun to thing? If the Nomais heard that Eye signal, noone would "observe the Eye". So the Eye would BigBang without new data repeating the same Universe again. Edit: developers added a "Final Echoes of the Eye" after you die when you meet the Prisoner BTW.

[@Koopan00ba]

I think that using combination locks in the real world is essential to selling the idea that you are just trying to find the codes for the sarcophagus locks as well. They work as an additional red herring to make the real solution that much more delightful of a surprise.

[@asdfghjkllkjhgfdsa8725]

This is a pretty good review. Some things i had a different experience with. The fireplace puzzle was the only one i thought was really well done, but it was the first one i figured out. Im happy i wasnt the only one who was dissapointed by echoes. The base game is a 10/10 masterpiece unlike anything ive ever played, the dlc is just a good puzzle game. So much is lost from what the base game does. I find it weird that many people claim theyre equal when they are most certainly not.

[@ahomestucker]

i found the second secret room on my own! it was before i knew about the dream world as well

[@globbo2225]

My opinions mirror yours mostly, but there are a few different experiences I had on my playthrough. 1. With the whole bottlenecking thing where you have to turn off the candles, I got stuck there for an incredibly long time. While I got a bit stuck in some other places it was incredibly frustrating here because that since I didn’t know where to go or what to look for next. I actually ended up dropping the dlc as a whole for a month or so because I just felt like I was wasting my time walking in circles over and over 2. I actually enjoyed the stealth sections a lot, but I feel like the “if you die on the fire you don’t wake up” could have been utilized somehow to make these scarier, in the same way that turning off the atp makes dark bramble terrifying all over again. As they are currently, they end up just being collections of stranger jumpscares in a dark area (which are still scary for me but I digress).

[@ChillyUK77]

I had trouble with the cabin as well (less so with the lights) but eventually worked out the sequence of fires getting put out and how going to a later one would buy me more time and bada bing bada boom I heard the ghosts deletion cry and the penny dropped. What gave me a seriously hard time was the final bell puzzle. I didnt process that death bypasses the bells so I thought the light that shines down on the bridge was somehow connected to the light that shines down from the raft claw mechanism in the real world. In my defense they both line up really close, sent me on a wild goose chase but I eventually explored enough to rediscover the slide and put it together.

[@Erumore]

As soon as I read a hint that the solution to the cabin involved using events from the loop, I realised that it must be something to do with the dam bursting and figured out what I needed to do. This is the only puzzle that requires you to use the loop like this though, which I think is a shame because it meant that I wasn't really prepared for this puzzle. Thanks for watching and I appreciate the comment!

[@gottagowork]

KZbinr Mad Matt Lugos had a *REALLY* hard time with the bell thing, trying all sorts of nuts things to get to that light above the bridge. KZbinr About Oliver btw also accidentally discovered The Stranger by randomly floating into space. Going WTF is this? Trying to navigate around it he lost it and was never discovered again until he started the DLC 🤭I just love how the thing is actually always there but "nobody" will ever discover it by accident.

[@Danuen131]

Good analysis but i disagree with some of your criticisms of the DLC. The way you die at the end of the loops is consistent with how it happens in the base game. If you travel outside the range of the supernova, instead of dying to it, the Ash Twin project triggers and sends your memories back. If they suddenly changed that in the DLC it wouldn't make sense. The first instinct of every area in the dream world is to try and stealth it, but I think your own experience of being stubborn and trying to brute force is mainly your own fault. When you walk into the Woodlands party room literally surrounded on all sides and somehow come to the conclusion that you can sneak by them, thats on you and not the developers or designers. It seems you never found out that only one of the stealth sections is actually mandatory even without the glitches. In the Woodland mansion, if you lower the elevator, start the stealth section and then travel down the river from another dream world entrance, you can skip this section entirely, as it takes you to the other side without forcing you to light the mansion bridge. This is a knowledge based solution rather than a mechanics based solution which is consistent with Outer Wilds philosophy. Additionally you didn't mention the shortcuts that were implemented to avoid the constant raft travel, like the hidden elevator behind the landing dock ufos or using the hull breach as an entrance. Honestly most people expected way too much from a DLC. The developers took a bold risk to change the formula like they did and i think it worked very well. The bird AI was easily manipulated by shining a light and then walking around an object which made the stealth really not that mechanically intensive. People complained there wasn't enough ship travel but I dont know how you expected an entire new set of planets to navigate to come out of a DLC. The story was not really as linear as you claim because like the original games, everything and I mean everything can be discovered without going down the path provided. I spoke with many people who discovered the glitches on their own accidentally or stumbled upon the slide rooms while exploring and had a vastly different experience to mine. I also thought some of the reveals and puzzles were at some points BETTER than the base game because they changed how you saw the dreamworld so drastically. This dlc was a fantastic amount of content for what I paid and my GoTY for 2021

[@Erumore]

You're right that your consciousness fades out in the base game as well if you're out of range of the supernova, but the fact is that it happens every single time the loops ends while you're playing the DLC, whereas the 'default' ending to the loop in the base game was being killed by the supernova (and there wasn't really any good reason to fly outside its range except to see what happens). I know that it's for the sake of consistency, but I still think it's a little underwhelming. I could have been more clear about that in my script, however. While I'm willing to accept some responsibility for trying to stealth the cabin section for so long, I still think that the intended design there is really unclear. I know you're surrounded on all sides when you enter the cabin, but you're able to stand in the middle of the room without being caught for a shockingly long time, which implies that there might be some way to remain undetected. I think this section is really ambiguous, and the fact that the devs modified it in a patch makes me think they agreed. Thanks for pointing out that alternative solution to one of the stealth sections, I'm glad to hear that was included, and I do agree that that solution is consistent with the Outer Wilds philosophy. But the problem is that the whole notion of skill-based horror elements simply isn't compatible with what made Outer Wilds so good. As I said in the video, it comes with an ambiguity that means you can't quite be sure whether you're just getting the execution wrong, or doing the wrong thing entirely (hence my issues with the cabin). At release, these segments were much harder, with more enemies and more restrictive level design. After all the patches, it's now easy to bait an enemy one way and then go the other way, but this has gone too far in the other direction and it's so easy it's boring. I didn't bring up the shortcuts in my script, but even if you do use them then you still have to use the rafts to get between locations on the Stranger, it's just that the shortcuts will let you start at a different spot. Either way, I think there could have been more variety in the ways you navigate the river; it's undeniable that getting to the tower on the Stranger requires you to float down that same stretch of river every time. Perhaps I came across too negatively in the video, because my thoughts on the DLC as a whole are very positive. I agree that the smaller scope was to be expected and can't really be criticised too much. I can understand people being disappointed that the ship doesn't see much use, but I was more than willing to let that go. I don't agree that everything can be discovered without following the intended path; unless you are just randomly trying everything then you're not likely to discover the way into the dreamworld until you find the hull breach and the artefact lab. And even if you do discover a hidden slide reel or glitch on your own, you're extremely unlikely to discover all three on your own, so you still need to go down the intended progression path to find the others. I do agree that the order you discover things can change your perception of the story and the nature of the dreamworld though, and I really enjoyed uncovering the story and figuring out the truth in my first playthrough. Thanks so much for watching and commenting; I truly appreciate the discussion and hearing your thoughts!

[@AninoNiKugi]

I agree about the reveals. I think the DLC may have more cool revelations than the base game. The base game was more emotional but the DLC was our awe. Just the reveal of the inside of The Stranger was so cool.

[@minerman60101]

@@Erumore the space station actively trying to avoid the supernova is a crucial part of the story. Its denizens wanted to extend their lives as far as possible in their simulation in spite of the heat death of the universe, and this movement by the station will prolong that death by just a little... until its power wanes, the station goes cold, and the fires of the cliff village and prison bell finally extinguish. This also lets the game have two new endings where the player character tries to prolong their own life by staying in the station after pulling out a certain thing in the base game. The other big benefit is that solar sails unfurling is the reason that the dam breaks and we even have that loop based element. I actually love how reasonable it is for the dam to break mid-loop as opposed to any of the previous 200,000+ years, and it was satisfying to figure that out. Since the DLC is harder than the base game, I think that extra 30 seconds or so of leeway is a reasonable boon. I think all of that absolutely outweighs the lack of supernova on the station. For the cabin, what pushed me into seeking a different solution was that no matter what I did, you couldn't go into the fireplace without immediately being caught. Also it seems they've made many patches to the level design of the simulation in general, so I bet my experience on patch 1.1.13 for those sections went over better than yours.

[@gottagowork]

​@@Erumore "there wasn't really any good reason to fly outside its range" I've seen players spend a lot of time chasing, catching up to, and trying to make sense of the probe (there is none), coming to that demise. Or flying far outside the system just to "see what happens" although reasoning is they know how computers work with math (floating point inaccuracy issues with large numbers).

[@luluvaage]

but the point is that you never ever have to use stealt at all! You can just die, then the alarm in the well will not wake you up. And the other are can be reached when you send the elevator down, then jump in the water, then access it via boat from another tomb and go up. Did nobody figure this out?

[@LB_]

7:57 LOL that PowerPoint logo!

[@dogdrovenorth]

7:57 That PowerPoint logo. LOL

[@VaanOtacon]

[Spoilers] I think an important thing to note for those watching this review thinking that Outer Wilds didn't quite pull off its magic a second time is that while the magic isn't there if you are exclusively finding the solutions when the game tells them to you, that this entire area is set up with the general theme of having to discover the answers yourself without being told. For instance, you start by finding text that isn't translatable on tech that is very clearly not Nomai in design, and your curiosity should naturally lead you to want to solve that issue somehow for navigating the area and solutions. By going back to the person who translated the Nomai text in the first place he will tell you that with enough samples he could begin translation. After finding enough samples and bringing them back to him you are told that in a meager few months, he should be able to figure out the solution. That is about as clear as Outer Wilds will ever be in telling you that you have found a dead end. Throughout the entire DLC you are left to infer what every piece of text you come across says, but rarely are they hard to guess. That was what started me on the theme of "Figuring things out myself" In Echos of the Eye the hardest way to any solution is to wait to be told how to do it, and often, in the path to trying to wherever you are being told the solution is found you will stumble upon a solution to one of the other puzzles. Take the stealth sections for instance, while I learned how to avoid them by letting the birds die from constantly being yanked out of the simulation by the rushing waters, I've heard many learned about the matrix vision from these sections as they reasoned "If I don't have my flame on me they won't be able to blow it out. I wonder if that means they won't kill me" and set it down somewhere safe before wandering off. I also learned about the death thing organically as it is faster to die than wait even at a campfire for the loop to end (and I never learned about meditation) so on one loop after the rushing waters closed off the area I was wanting to explore I chose to burn myself on the campfire with the owl skeletons and found myself in the simulation. The only puzzle I got stuck on and had to wait to be told how to solve after exploring the area thoroughly was the one where you had to jump off the boat in the loading zone, and I still contribute this to the fact that I had fallen into the trap of thinking of Outer Wilds as a game again, instead of wondering about the curiously dark void the tunnels would leave you in between areas. I appreciate that there are ways to be told how to do puzzles that just aren't clicking for you, but I honestly think that Echo's is brilliant for presenting those hints as necessary only to have you go through a number of scenarios that would make you naturally replicate the bugs found within them. Also, the vibes remain immaculate the whole time, as you start in this gorgeous ring world that slowly turns into a terrifying time bomb, with your only escape being an area that excluded horrible terror in its vibes alone before being added to with horror. Also worth mentioning that the reason why it changes your death to be that you are dying outside the solar system rather than being burned by the sun is to make the player reconsider an ending they might have gotten in the past. By shutting down the Ash Twin Project you can get outside of the solar system and survive the ending of the universe... until your recourses run thin and you starve to death. This however is a fully functioning planet for all intents and purposes that leaves the solar system entirely to avoid being burned by the sun. The lack of satisfaction in the sun burning you to a crisp is more than made up for in the satisfaction of that realization.

[@vernonw.970]

Nice video! Though I definitely disagree that the ending is underwhelming. For me, it made me cry even harder than the base game somehow (which is a high bar to say the least) and I thought it tied up the entire story nicely, plot holes and all, for the entirety of Outer Wilds. Likewise, I think the 'big moments' of the DLC were more impactful to me personally than the base game, simply because they seem so much more obvious like with the whole mechanic of dropping your lantern in the dream world being right in front of your face for all the simulation segments, which made the reveal feel so much more ingenious. Finally, while I do agree that some of the puzzles could have been improved before launch, I think it's important to mention that many base game puzzles also underwent various iterations after launch. For example, the solution for getting into the core of Ash Twin was made easier after launch by adding a little enclave in the ash twin warp room where you could hide from the sand made the puzzle way more obvious than it was originally. Overall, I personally liked the DLC even more than the base game (though that might be just because I'm a slut for visual storytelling vs just reading clues head on).

[@Erumore]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts in this comment, I actually didn't know about the Ash Twin solution being modified after release, and in fact that's the 'puzzle' from the base game that I had the most trouble with. I think we agree that Outer Wilds (and DLC) is one of the most special and important games in recent memory, so here's hoping we get something else like it soon.

[@mpspenguin2]

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who had some issues with the DLC. Overall I came away from it positively with how it tied into the main game but once I got to the point of repeating the stealth sections over and over I got incredibly frustrated (it didn't help that I played it soon after the base game and with little sleep.) Not only did it feel like a massive downgrade from the open world, non-linear exploration that was so affecting to me in the main game, but having to travel back for a minute or two every time (even with the shortcuts) rather than giving me time to reflect and piece together the story as in the main game just felt like a chore I had to do over and over again. Honestly it left me wishing for a fast travel option or for each loop to somehow start on the Stranger which frustrated me on a whole other level since those kind of changes would be the antithesis of what made the original so good. This frustration combined with the tension of the horror elements left me fully tilted, and after a certain number of repetitions seemingly to no avail I gave up and just looked up the solutions for the remaining hidden reels. Perhaps if I had waited longer than a day or two before trying the DLC, or just quit the game and tried again when I was in a better headspace I could have appreciated it more fully but at the time I just felt too disillusioned with the whole process of flying and rafting to the same place over and over to care. Once I found the other glitches and tied them back to the vault I did definitely start to get back in a better headspace, especially appreciating how you could bypass the need for each of the three codes. And the ending felt satisfying to me, helped along as always by the amazing soundtrack. One interesting facet of this negative experience I had is that it meant by watching others' playthroughs I could experience the process of the game being played as intended, rather than using guides to skip the sections I did through - while normally people are watching to vicariously experience another's playthrough, this time it actually felt like filling in the gaps of my own experience with the game, while in a much better headspace. which was nice at least. Honestly it surprises me how almost uniformly positive the response to the DLC is - I definitely appreciate it and would rate it positively overall, but there do seem to be many valid avenues of criticism, especially considering how it removes the freedom of exploration that is so integral to the base game. But the exploration of the story remains similar, so I can understand why many would still be so enthusiastic at least - and it's a great proof of concept that the storytelling/gameplay of OW is replicable; hopefully the wider games industry can take note of that fact! tl;dr DLC was still good, less freedom bad

[@telekinesticman]

Excellent stuff, I think your points about horror and terror, and the more linear structure, were really well explained. I loved this DLC but I did have a few issues with it, especially the horror sections and the vague ending. I was so mad at myself for accidentally spoiling the "drop the lantern" exploit before solving it myself, because otherwise I solved the entire DLC, at launch, by myself, and it felt great. I had a totally different experience with the dam killing the ghost birds - I knew there had to be a reason to sleep at the safe campfire in the cliffs, then travel to the other areas separately to avoid getting kicked out by the dam's water. So when I went to the swamp, heard the dam break, and then heard them all die, I finally understood why I kept hearing that sound every timeloop, and felt really smart. I mentioned it in my last video too, I just made sure to blur the footage and bleep certain words so I didn't spoil anything. Anyways, great stuff, your videos are really good.

[@Erumore]

That's a shame about the lantern glitch being spoiled for you. One thing that is really great about the community of Outer Wilds fans is just how careful they tend to be about not spoiling things for others. I think it shows that practically everyone who plays it understands on a subconscious level how important the elements of discovery and the unknown are in Outer Wilds. Thanks for the comment and I truly appreciate the kind words and support!

[@RadioactivFly]

I disagree that the shrouded woodland stealth section is misleading. It teaches you to exploit the raft and different entrance points to get past the pursuers. The stealth sections in the endless canyon section can also be bypassed by unlocking a path before turning off the lights and later using the raft. The difficult stealth is supposed to be a deterrent, forcing you to think outside the box to avoid it. Only the candlelit cove requires a significant amount of stealth, but if you leave it for after the endless canyon, you have more than enough knowledge to properly analyze the pursuers' patrols.

[@MonadoBoy42]

I adored the base game, but got frustrated by this dlc. I struggled to find things in the stranger, everything looked the same with no obvious points of interest and I had no idea what I was looking for. There was a lot of clutter, unlike the base game. In the end I'd had enough and looked for hints online. I accidently found out how to enter the dream world and the lantern bug early, which I guess ruined the intended order. Even with the bug though, I just hated how I could barely see anything in the dream world. It was horrible navigating a dark environment where everything looks the same. The first time I saw an owl, I was like 'oh wow! Hi!' And then it just killed me... I think it would have been better to make the make the glitches enable you to skip one of the stealth sections that you hadn't done, so at least you could skip one other.

[@AninoNiKugi]

I don't see any problem with the game directly telling about locking a location via ship log. It's not essential to the story and puzzles of the The Stranger. You already solved the puzzle when you first went to the Stranger. Sure there may be a subtler way but what it is now is totally fine. There are so many things to get frustrated in this game, let's not have players go to the Stranger everytime using the satellite XD So far in all the reviews I watched, most of the negative points came from the parts where they had issues solving. And personally I can't agree because I had fun solving those puzzles and I didn't had a very frustrating expecience with them. I actually personally am not a fan of ths new reel version for the tower candle puzzles. I think it's too direct now but I understand why they had to do it. It's a necessary puzzle to solve to move forward. By the way, there seems to be puzzle-y way of going past some of the stealth sections like for example in Endless Canyon. In my opinion, the main thing that could have been improved in the ending is the vision. It should have been clearer that the Prisoner wants you to go Eye again and trigger the big bang. The current one is just too vague and actually confusing because there's a raft in front of you and you'd think you need to cross the water :D And on that note, you didn't seem to go the ending again to see the actual ending of the DLC.

[@Erumore]

I agree that the tower puzzle is a bit too easy now, especially since I didn't have any trouble with it pre-patch. Another commenter mentioned a more puzzle-y solution to get through the Endless Canyon, which I'm glad was included in the game, but as far as I know the Starlit Cove has no alternative to stealth. I still believe that those skill-based stealth sections are against the philosophy of Outer Wilds, and I think that they don't encourage the player to see them as a puzzle. With the internet it's easy to found out later that there was a more puzzle-y solution available, but when you're playing for the first time and the game presents you with a stealth section, I think it's natural to assume that there's no alternative. I played the original ending again to see the new additions, but I didn't mention it in this video because I don't think it's different enough to the original version. For most players of Echoes, the footprints leading into the water will be the final thing they see. I like your idea of the Prisoner's vision pushing you towards seeing the new ending though. Thanks for the comment!

[@gottagowork]

​@@Erumore "as far as I know the Starlit Cove has no alternative to stealth" How does it play out if you accidentally figure out the death mechanic prior to doing Starlit Cove? See, there is a way, and I have actually seen one player do this complete skip. Not even having to turn the lights off, no Owlks alerted and gone down there. If you know the artifact glitch, you can also go down there and observe the lay of the land, patrol patterns, and come up with a decent plan. If you have done the Mansion first (as intended with stealth, not the alternate way), you already know how to outsmart them; shine and lure, then evade alternate route. Frustrating? Of course. It's a game with puzzle elements. I've seen solutions to parts of the main game too that relied on ridiculousness and pure persistence to get to certain places without having the adequate knowledge; slingshot to Brittle Hollow quantum tower, accidentally falling withe same tower into the black hole (and only *THEN* realizing), getting to the black hole forge without the warp, accidentally figuring out the warps and well hidden shortcuts.

[@1049662]

I'm jealous of people who enjoyed the DLC, I didn't finish it. Maybe I am dumb dumb small brain, but that didn't seem to matter at all in the main game.

[@dr.ambiguous4913]

Overall I loved the DLC, and I think the puzzles in it were generally much stronger than the base game. In the base game, the final step to get into the ATP was very counter-intuitive. Standing on the warp pad would result in the tornado pulling you up off the ground, yet somehow running into it worked? It didn’t make much sense. In contrast, i thought the final puzzle of the DLC was fantastic. When I realised that you had to kill yourself to get past the bells, and then tried it and it actually worked, I felt like a genius. I 100% agree about the fireplace puzzle though. I genuinely think that was pretty shit design, unfortunately. That was the only thing in the DLC I had to look up.

[@wb5629]

I did play both in the same install for the first time. But truly, the DLC feels extremely out of place, even without any knowledge of the game going in when I solved the satellite puzzle I immediately knew that if it wasn't the eye, it was the DLC mentioned on the steam page and thought it wouldn't be an interesting thing to do before completing the base game... And I think I was right. Echo asks you to spend 15 to 20 hours on it EXCLUSIVELY, and cutting oneself out of the solar system for so long feels like enough to just rip you away for good, making it much harder to get back to what you were doing and thus breaking the game's rythm

[@ingloriousbaxter]

I found heaven’s vault too frustrating in the translation mechanics and controls. A great translation game, and the first one that’s truly scratched that Outer Wilds itch, is Chants of Sennaar.

[@Erumore]

I played Chants of Sennaar and I enjoyed it a lot, but I much prefer Heaven's Vault because of the archaeological angle. In Chants it was a little bit too easy to guess translations by trial and error, whereas the language in Heaven's Vault had a genuine logic to it that meant you could sometimes even guess the meaning of a word you'd never seen before, just by looking at its shape and extrapolating from the words you already knew. The 'stealth' segments of Chants were also a bit of a waste of time. Anyway, I'm very glad to have experienced both games and I'm hoping that we get many more like them in the future!

[@ingloriousbaxter]

@@Erumore I definitely agree on the stealth parts. I said out loud a couple times “ugghhh not another stealth room” I think Heaven’s Vault may be a game I would find more rewarding if I watched someone else play it. I was really looking forward to the archeological aspect as well but just got too frustrated with the controls. I feel like I’d have a better time either playing with someone or just watching someone much smarter than me 😂 That’s what I ended up doing with Echoes of the Eye. I got to a point where it started to feel frustrating rather than challenging so I looked up guides to get to the end and have watched a dozen playthroughs which really helped preserve the emotional aspect for me

[@ingloriousbaxter]

@@Erumore also strong agree with wanting more games like this. Even though I didn’t vibe with Heaven’s Vault, it makes me optimistic that games like that are being made and with the popularity of things like Outer Wilds and Sennaar, I think it could help inspire other creators. On a side note, they’re releasing the OST for Sennaar on Vinyl if you were a fan of the music. And done. I’ll stop typing your eyes off.

[@giangiuseppecicorioni9164]

The dlc was completely wasted on me. As soon as I stumbled onto the horror part i knew that I wasn't going through it. So i started doing anything else that i could, discoveriny the mechanics on my own. This shattered the game, as now those mechanics brought me to places where the only thing to do was diacover those mechanics, or see the story with all the reels, which i found to be underwhelming. The story I immagined as I played was way better. On the whole it left me with nothing. The ring world is gorgeous and the score is still my guitar warm up.

[@giangiuseppecicorioni9164]

Btw I bruteforced my way through a lot of the base game and it's my favourite game ever.

[@m4jki316]

I'm sorry but you're complaining a bit too much and that's only because you couldn't solve something that the game hints to you in an obvious manner. Also if you really wanted to avoid the stealth sections, you would've come up with an idea on how to do it (I didn't but I didn't think they were problematic). I don't know why you skipped the most important moment of the expansion (it's not a DLC) when you show the Prisoner the whole story from your point of view and the addition to the ending. You probably should open your mind because Outer Wilds 2 is not happening.

[@HackysackTrav]

Too low subs