Echoes of Wisdom Was Almost A VERY Different Game

[@monkeytails1437]

I couldn’t be happier about the direction they are taking for 2d Zelda. The only problem I had with links awakening on the switch was its linear progression. There was only ever one way to move forward. I’m so excited for this game.

[@lemoncakeslemonade5430]

Right? I got stuck on one boss for literally three hours, I thought that I might have to give up the game, and I’m not willing to do that again so it has basically no replay value. I like the concepts of this game so far because it looks like getting stuck like I did is going to be something that happens way less.

[@datnastysalad5616]

​@@lemoncakeslemonade5430 No flame but literally which boss, they're all simple as long as you've got fine motor skills

[@lemoncakeslemonade5430]

@@datnastysalad5616 The armos knight. Most of the bosses were pretty easy except for that one- I just could not handle the timing of charging up for the double spin while getting close enough while also avoiding all of the jumps.

[@harrybaque5502]

My least favorite part of Link’s Awakening on Switch was the dungeon maker mini game so I’m happy with them abandoning this

[@BoTalksGames]

Yeah, I really did not like the chamber dungeons

[@mememan5466]

I think that with enough options it could work. The links awakening one sucked because it's just the same stuff over and over. I'm glad it's an actual game rather than a maker though anyway

[@lemoncakeslemonade5430]

Right??? The amount of bitterness I felt when you had to go through the dungeon maker in order to get some of the heart pieces or secret shells.

[@joelsytairo6338]

It was mostly just a mini game mode

[@CamiloCalderon26]

Same here!!!

[@seangriffey8669]

For me, the puzzle design is great. The main thing both botw and totk lack is proper dungeons. From the marketing thus far it seems like this will not be an issue in this game

[@athorem]

I was mostly concerned about dungeons returning as well, but we'll have to see. If they don't restrict the player from, say, building a hoverbike that allows them to skip the traversal of the dungeon, then the puzzle design becomes an issue

[@56ty_]

Hmm I’ve played every 3d Zelda game and totks dungeons are above average I would say 🤔 what do you mean with “proper dungeons”?

[@athorem]

@@56ty_ there is no reasonable defense of TotK Water Temple

[@seangriffey8669]

@@56ty_ for both botw and totk, the divine beasts and the "temples" are really terrible imo. I don't mean the shrines, which are great.

[@InfernoLycan]

Hi Bo, I’m kinda hyped grezzo made echoes

[@lemoncakeslemonade5430]

I know that the topic of how open ended the dungeons should be is contentious… but as a fan of the open air style, who struggled significantly more with the more formulaic games, I’m excited for the direction that this game is going. I also really like the directors, they seem like they love Zelda so much. I think that it’d be so cool if they relied on the Grezzo team to put out 2D Zeldas on a regular basis. Overall, this interview was perfect for stoking up my hype levels for the game, I think it’s going to be great.

[@XanderVJ]

You're absolutely right, those statements from Aonuma are really controversial. Because the whole "we let players solve puzzles in their own unique ways, incentivizing their creativity" is nothing but empty PR talk. In practice, that's code for "we're not gonna even try to balance the level and puzzle design at all, since people seem to like watching clips of other people doing wacky stuff on TikTok". The result? The puzzles are utterly broken and more often than not are trivialized by actions that are roughly tutorial level at best, and barely require any more brain power and/or dexterity than pressing an on-screen "skip puzzle" prompt at worst. Like, seriously, the old Zelda formula got a lot of shit during the SS backlash for having just one single solution for every puzzle. But that now has become two or three solutions that solve +90% of all puzzles in the game. Like... That's supposed to be better and the future of the series? REALLY?! We'll see how it is done in EoW. But this definitely doesn't look good.

[@laxuspoldish6165]

I like some of the older mechanics of "traditional" Zelda, but all this talk from "traditional" fans means nothing when BOTW and TOTK outsells every past Zelda game. That literally signals to the developers that the new style works and garners a larger audience.

[@athorem]

I agree, I'm not a huge fan of it. Rearranging all of the stickers on a Rubik's Cube so it looks like you've won does not give the same sense of accomplishment as actually solving it. It seems like the Zelda series is catering to people who don't actually like puzzles, which is a sad thing to see for this puzzle-based series. From what people are saying it does sound like the traditional dungeon structure is back though, so at least there's that.

[@mrshmuga9]

I can understand them wanting to do something different after so long, and having things more free form… but I agree 100%. SS’s problems weren’t the dungeons, they were some of the best in the series because they actually used each item as you progressed. Meanwhile, the new “dungeons” have all the items from the start, and they never take advantage of that to have more complexity (especially with 120 shrines). I’m guessing because they’re scared of random difficulty spikes that might deter players from trying other shrines/dungeons or stop playing after that. But there’s ways around fixing that. Nothing more disappointing than going into a shrine, getting into a puzzle, and it’s over after barely introducing its gimmick. There should at least be “intro > execution > twist” but it cuts off too early and feels like you didn’t get to really think about it. Especially ToTk where you need materials and they only provide you with the exact materials you need and you can’t use your own. So all those crazy new tools (at least for shrines, I forget about dungeons) you don’t get to use creative thinking. Yet the puzzle is more simplistic than before, lol. I’m cautiously optimistic for EoW because I didn’t expect them to be as traditional as it is (dungeons with: multiple floors, segmented rooms, keys, and maybe puzzle interaction between floors). Whether the puzzles are well-crafted or not, I don’t know. I think I saw someone on Reddit who played the leaked version that it’s like some of the other games, which is something. I might watch a play through of one or two dungeons just to see how it stacks to other games. This, and maybe the next 3D Zelda’s are gonna be make-or-break for me. I don’t want a glorified Ubisoft game with light puzzle elements. The puzzles used to be a defining feature, now it’s just a run-of-the-mill open-world game because the mainstream audience think “bigger and free” are defacto better, as if you can’t execute anything greatly or poorly. It’s like saying we should stop making 2D games because we can do 3D now.

[@56ty_]

The popularity of the series is at an all time high. The future of Zelda is looking brighter than ever

[@mrshmuga9]

@@56ty_ If you’re a shareholder. Popularity doesn’t equate to quality. If anything, it’s more likely to be a sign of declining quality. Because to hit a bigger market you’re likely going to have to tone down its more defining elements to appeal to a broader market.

[@FabuBrik]

As a fan of the more traditional Zelda games, this is a huge bummer. It's really not that surprising and really hard to argue against sales of botw/totk. And this does open the door for smaller indie devs to fill that niche too. Now if they are in fact doing oot remake and slap botw/totk mechanics onto that...

[@BoTalksGames]

If they redesign OOT with open ended mechanics it’s so over

[@painuchiha2694]

⁠@@BoTalksGames Open ended Oot sounds awesome actually

[@PixelPikmin]

I will admit I’m glad they’re doing EoW instead of a dungeon maker, it probably would’ve been extremely limited like Mario Maker 1. Also I still think Aounuma’s view on traditional Zelda is kind of flawed, like I can understand him not wanting to make it, but that doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be made at all. Wish they’d use that money from Botw and Totk to make a new studio to make traditional Zelda games and make the whole fanbase happy

[@jamezthefirst]

Exactly, like why can’t we have both styles

[@athorem]

Multiple people who have played Echoes of Wisdom say the dungeons are more traditional in structure. But it sounds like the puzzles are open ended like TotK. I'm happy about the dungeons. The puzzle design is just something I personally disagree with. In the interview Aonuma says something like the puzzles aren't fun unless you can cheat. I disagree with that, I don't think cheating your way through a puzzle gives a good sense of accomplishment. And in TotK you could use the same solution to break a lot of puzzles, which isn't very fun. In theory I have no issue with open ended puzzle design but I feel like the Zelda developers are giving up on making them actually be puzzles and give so little restrictions that they end up feeling only like obstacles.

[@SalvableRuin]

It seems Nintendo let Grezzo develop the majority of this game because they are busy on the next 3D Zelda game for Switch 2. It will be shown off sooner than we expect.

[@AnthonySmith-bj9mo]

hi BoTalksGames

[@SalvableRuin]

Aonuma is pronounced exactly as it is spelled: Ah-oh-nu-ma (sped up, it sounds like Ow-new-ma), not "Awanuma"

[@jarde1989]

You’re very first time directing a video game… And you fking get a direct Zelda?!? Talk about Jackpot!

[@jarde1989]

Your*

[@SalvableRuin]

Satoshi Terada, not "Tereida." Teh-rah-dah"

[@spendingfoil3964]

FINAL FINAL FINAL FINAL FINAL

[@Milkyway-Galaxy11]

Grezzo should be in charge of 2D games so the main Zelda team is hard on work on 3D games

[@cullenmuir2707]

So does this mean a dungeon maker in the game is ruled out, or does it just mean that it used to be the focus of this entry?

[@BoTalksGames]

It used to be the focus, but they decided to scrap it

[@cullenmuir2707]

@@BoTalksGames That's sad, but hopefully that means at some point they'll come out with a full dungeon maker. I'd buy it if they made it dlc for EOW.

[@TheDreadedZero]

This is very sad news for me. BoTW and TotK are my least favorite Zelda games. I much prefer the linear dungeon design. Now it’s even affecting the 2d games ☹️

[@Guy4385]

Bro you needa take a xanax or something. Over here talking so fast!! It’s almost annoying 😂