Effective Smart Tariff Strategies (Part 1: Setting the Scene)

[@philreilly6959]

A good start to what looks like being an interesting and really useful series. Thanks Gary!

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Thanks Phil. And the second part of the series has just been published - enjoy! 😀

[@johnh9449]

Another interesting video Gary. I think what we have now with these smart tariffs is a way of storing solar energy in summer for use in winter. In that way it acts rather like a ground sourced heat pump with a large ground heat store - but without the financial outlay. You can effectively bank excess solar in summer in your electricity account at 20p to 30p and then import it at cheap rate at 7.5p later in winter. The financial vehicle is less lossy than a ground store and potentially profitable.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Cheers John. Now, that's an intriguing thought! And if you look at the Intelligent Octopus Flux tariff, because the import and export rates are the same, you're really looking at an infinitely-sized virtual battery, where you could indeed store all that excess solar during the summer (in reality, creating a positive balance on your Octopus Energy account) and use it in the winter (calling off against that balance). Even without IOF, as you say, you can achieve a similar effect - and with a real battery, you can be even more financially efficient and get that stored energy back at a far cheaper (off-peak import rate). I'm loving where all this is going! :-)

[@Almonweir]

As usual, very clear and informative. I would just like to note that Octopus Energy have made their Flux tariffs less attractive by reducing the 3 import rates by 9% and the 3 export rates by 12%, 14% and 23%. One is not amused!

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Thank you 🙏 and yeah, Flux doesn’t appear to be as lucrative as it was. I’ll be using that as the example tariff in my next video (strategies for smart tariffs) so we can have a close look at the numbers 👍🏻

[@Gelp]

Super video once again Gary! Can't wait for the other videos! Patreon sign up coming soon as financials almost good again, and you certainly deserve it.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Thanks very much for the great feedback. I do worry when I get deep into a topic that it'll turn people away. But, for many people, there's a lot of investment at stake, and so I think it's really important that people are as well-informed as they can be to make the right decisions. When I read comments like this, I feel that I'm on the right path - thanks! I've still got a fair amount of foreign travel coming up with my day job, but trying to get the next video in the series out in the next week or so... And thank you, for considering me for Patreon membership - I've tried to keep it as inexpensive as possible for everyone :-)

[@Gelp]

@@GaryDoesSolar Good stuff. It's really helpful for supporting a key financial decisions, as you say.

[@markharding8480]

Thank you Gary! From: Cobb County, Georgia - U.S.A.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

My pleasure Mark! And great to have viewers all over the globe! 🌎 😀

[@cals.9269]

Great content & marvellous presenting skills Gary ! Keep up the great work 😊

[@GaryDoesSolar]

You’re too kind - thank you 🙏 I’ll keep the videos coming for as long as I can 😀👍🏻

[@bmurdoch85]

Thank you for the videos Gary. Looking forward to the rest of the series. My solar and battery is being fitted on November 7th so I have a lot to learn !

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Cheers, and November the 7th will be here in no time! Hope your install goes well and I’ll keep the videos coming! 😀👍🏻

[@markhodge2735]

Me too, just confirmed tomorrow's installation

[@GaryDoesSolar]

@@markhodge2735 All the best with the install Mark - would love to hear how it call goes 🙂

[@markhodge2735]

Install done and using solar and battery most of the afternoon. It's nice when you see 0 cost for your consumption. 6kw system 5kw inverter and 9.4 kWh battery

[@bmurdoch85]

@@markhodge2735 my panels are up today but there’s been a hold up with battery, so won’t be completed till tomorrow

[@mischadebrouwer9855]

NL here, dynamic electricity prices, and a 22 kWh battery. Just like my solar inverter all integrated in Home Assistant. Currently programming charging and discharging times and powers manually, going towards a rule-based trading (charging & discharging) algorithm soon. With the price of my battery, this is profitable from a spread of around 14 cents and up.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

That’s so great to hear, and I can’t help but think that energy providers in all countries will be offering the same opportunities to their customers soon! 😀 I’ll be covering such tracker tariffs in the third video in the series 👍🏻

[@gearoidoconnor6900]

Hey Gary- some amazing content. Seeking advice/hints. Based in IRL so similar characteristics to uk for Solar. Personally have 7.77kw on the roof. S/SW facing (196) 10kW battery also. 3 phase supply, standard day/night meter (smart not ready here yet)- poss have room for another 6 panels (2.3kw on roof as add on to existing) should this be the road…. Or should it be battery…. Which comes first ?

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Thanks Gearoid - much appreciated! Ok, I can't provide individual advice, but in general, I'd always suggest people maximise the amount of panels on their roof space - this saves on scaffolding costs and I've hear from people all the time who didn't maximise the panels, then end up doing it eventually. Battery ROI is more difficult (see my videos on that) and so it can come later. The only caveat to that might be if there is a VAT saving by getting the battery at the same time as the panels.... I'd love to hear how you get on, whatever you decide :-)

[@bradallen8643]

Looking fwd to series 3 to see what I can do with solar power down under.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Yes, it's going to be an interesting video to make as well - I don't know the answer yet, but let's see :-)

[@Adam-u1n1b]

Brilliant videos Gary. Thanks very much. Would you consider doing something on Demand Flexibility Service and the various offerings available?

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Good idea, especially now that battery forced discharging is allowed 👍🏻

[@MartynDews]

The "brown export" situation is an interesting one. For example, my smart meter register either import or export regardless of the source. If that export came from the battery how could a supplier identify this. On top of that, the battery will contain a mix of free solar and off-peak electricity so again, how can a supplier differentiate between the two? I guess that could be a clause that would give them an option to deal with customers who are excessively gaming the system to the point of abuse.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Hi Martyn, yeah - I've been thinking this too. And of course, hydroelectric power stations are all about brown energy, so why the concern from energy suppliers regarding domestic situations? I'll need to do some digging to see what the concerns are...

[@budgycanary]

Love the videos - so informative. I've 2 x givenergy 8.2kw batteries thinking of moving to octopus agile do you know how their automation works? Currently on Go

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Thank you! Now, there is an automation in the GivEnergy app for the Agile tariff, but after enquiring about this, it's very basic - and as such, probably not very useful. GivEnergy are always working on things though, so I'm expecting a better version soon. Other ways are by using third party services, like givTCP, PredBat and Octopus R&D labs. None of these are for the faint-hearted though :-/ More on this in part 3 of this video series!

[@Almonweir]

It's an ever-changing landscape: will you throw GivBack into the mix as well now that it's available?

[@GaryDoesSolar]

It certainly is! I'll be covering what are typically called "tariff automations" in part three of this series. GivBack is a good example of such, where a third party (in this case, Axle) controls your battery charging and discharging, to provide the most return during Demand Flexibility Service e (DFS) periods.

[@Sami-Nasr]

Thank you Gary, if I switch to a tariff with cheap electricity between 2-4 am, during those two hours I will charge my batteries "10 kWh" plus during those two hours I will charge my PHEV "17 kWh battery" + whatever running in the house "if my wife turned on dishwasher timer or washing machine", that would be a lot of load on the house wiring, with time would they burn out ?

[@GaryDoesSolar]

You're most welcome. Now, it's worth working out the total draw that you can have from the grid where you are. For example, in the UK, most modern houses are fitted with a 100 amp fuse at the meter. With a voltage of 240 volts, this gives a total power draw of roughly 24kWh on a single phase. From this, you can account for the individual draws for the various appliances, battery and EV charging. And check with the manufacturer of your battery and EV charger, because these items track the total draw and they'll generally automatically reduce their charging level if it's above a certain value...

[@geoffreycoan]

The brown energy statement on the octopus export conditions is interesting. I didn’t know it was there. I wonder how they would know as they don’t know your battery size or solar size. It’s an interesting grey area. I suspect it’s in there to protect them against extreme behaviour and for most domestic exporters it won’t be a clause ever needed

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Hi Geoffrey, yeah I found this clause a little strange too, because if you think about the energy 'bathtub' curve, on a country level, that's exactly what you want to happen, store energy when it's cheap then export it back when it's expensive - that's exactly what a hydro-electric station does. But, I guess there are reasons to keep an eye on this for residential systems - maybe someone can comment if they know what those reasons might be. And I'm not sure it's an issue in the domestic situation: - In the summer, I'd imagine many people will be generating far more than their daily consumption, and so exporting everything after charging their battery, which would be used to support the home when the sun goes down. - And in the winter, when there is little sun, I'd imagine people would want to completely fill their battery with cheap import, and use ALL of it to power the house - i.e. no export at all... What do you think?

[@geoffreycoan]

@@GaryDoesSolar yes absolutely that’s the general strategy I’m following with my battery and that’s what the energy companies are encouraging us to do to flatten the energy spikes out. But with these smart tariffs and smart optimisation there is opportunities that the tariffs encourage you to do. I saw yesterday around 10pm, agile import rates were very low (down to pennies and negative for one half hour slot), but the export rate was a flat 16p/kW, dropping only from 2-5am. Opportunity to charge at the super cheap rate and then export for more later on. A consequence of the rates but also is flattening the curve as they want us to do

[@GaryDoesSolar]

*** NOTES SINCE PUBLICATION *** New Zealand is of course part of the Southern Hemisphere! Apologies for clipping it off in the video! Corrected here for the remainder of the series: garydoessolar.com/files/corrected_irradiation_segments.png 😃

[@nzbluefish]

😂 ... thanks Gary ... at least we were on the map. It's somewhat of a collective Kiwi joke that we're sometimes missing off maps. You'll find a couple of YT skits by a Kiwi comedian featuring our past PM.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

@@nzbluefish No problem - and I'll take a look at some of these skits! 😃

[@fyrfytrdub]

Im lucky here with my tarriff 8.15c between 0200 and 0600 36.6c all other times 24c export 7.74 E/W split with a 10.24kwh battery. As smart tariffs and especially export tarriffs are very new here in Ireland the rates are still very favourable between 18c and 24c a unit exported. So every night force charge to 100% usually battery topped back up and exporting again by mid day here. I know such high export rates wont last forever so best to make hay while the sun shines....literally

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Wow - what a great tariff! Could you tell me the energy provider please? I'm trying to build up a list of forward-thinking providers. And agreed, long may this continue! I think your charging strategy is a good one, and I'll explain why in my next video (part 2 of strategies for smart tariffs)... :-)

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

In Australia, 66% of electricity bills are the grid costs. 300gWh × 365 × $0.44 = $ 55 billion /year, including fees BIG CASH FLOW is basically guaranteed. My point is that your electricity is worth very little to the grid owners and generator owners. But in the future, grid expansion will be horrendously expensive, as fossil fuels are removed from the economy. Cold latitudes solutions are different for warm latitudes.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Thanks Stephen - great insight - I'll try to cover this well in part 3 of the series.

[@robrs210]

It only works IF your smart meter will connect and communicate with the supplier. Unfortunately many in the north of England are being stopped from accessing cheaper electricity tariffs due to the poor smart meter network and no one appears to be interested in sorting it out.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

That’s such a shame. Wherever there is good O2 mobile signal, then smart meters should work fine (O2 won the smart meter connectivity contract). Even if lousy O2 signal, I think Vodafone is the backup. Octopus Energy looks to me to be the most proactive wet smart meter maintenance and installation - worth looking to switch to them…

[@robrs210]

@@GaryDoesSolar unfortunately it’s not down to the supplier, It’s area specific. The metres receiver requires to be changed for an external Ariel type. These are only available in wales, Scotland and parts of the south of England. Unfortunately this is not offered to northern England. The reply from British Gas was its unfortunate but until the smart meter radio network operator improves the system there is nothing that can be done. I would like to pursue this further but it seems there is no way to complain or get a resolution.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Just did a bit of digging here: www.speakev.com/threads/there-is-hope-for-anybody-trying-to-get-a-smart-meter-in-a-poor-signal-area.159255/ That’s just crazy that the situation is so different for the North of England. Worth a call with Octopus anyway though, to see if they would resolve if you switched to them…

[@robrs210]

@@GaryDoesSolar nothing they can do either. After the third engineer visited he explained how it all worked. As we have a signal showing on the meter it should work but the required communication to and from the supplier is not able to connect. I’m stuck with having to send in manual readings and that is no easy task, as being registered with a smart meter it doesn’t allow manual reads on a normal account. At least I get paid for solar PV export

[@GaryDoesSolar]

@robrs210 Ah ok. What a predicament :-/ great that you’re getting paid for your export though. And hopefully it’ll be resolved before too long. Have you considered contacting the ombudsman? www.energyombudsman.org/case-studies/smart-meters-not-sending-readings#:~:text=As%20the%20Energy%20Ombudsman%2C%20when,functionality%20has%20caused%20the%20customer.

[@philsmith6165]

Can you help me out, please? I can't find the referral link to Octopus Energy.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Hi Phil, no problem - you can either click this link here: share.octopus.energy/blue-wind-201 or you can just phone Octopus Energy and tell them the "Blue-Wind-201" referral code. Thank you for thinking of me :-)

[@bradleyarcher9840]

Interesting take, I’m currently on octopus flux and I’m going to change to octopus intelligent once I fit an ohme charger. I don’t feel the benefit is here anymore as my import on the cheap rate is 16.5p and my export during the day is 16.7p, yes my export during peak is 30p but I don’t really send much back in the evening. Octopus intelligent is 7.5p in and 15p export out, double bubble, to me it’s a no brainier.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Yeah, I was on Flux but changed to Agile only because I don’t have an EV yet. I would have done the same as you otherwise. I’ll be running the Flux numbers in the next video in this series. With less sun at the moment, it’s not so great. Far better to use cheap energy to charge the battery, as you say 👍🏻

[@bradleyarcher9840]

Flux used to be a lot better before the price change in October. I have 9kW of solar panels, a 5kW battery and an EV, we use roughly 600kWh a month on average. I’ve stop using solar divert car charging and hot water and simply blast everything overnight and send everything back during the day. On octopus intelligent I need to export 300kWh a month to get back 600kWh of overnight charging. It’s a lot better than a 1 for 1 which I’m currently on. If flux changes back it could be tempting but it’s not where it needs to be currently.

[@Qdex44]

@@bradleyarcher9840 Sounds like you've done the right things. I'm still trying to get my head around the "intelligent" version of Flux - again, it feels like a summer tariff to me - no good for the next 5-6 months 😕

[@devjon123]

I'm looking for ward to the rest of this series. We are about to commit to a SolarPV install that includes a Givenergy AIO. With regard to that, one of your videos that I watched discussed the use of Solar Diverters for heating water. If I have an AIO Battery does having a solar diverter still make sense?

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Thanks - I've got a lot of great things to say about tariff strategies, so can't wait to get this videos done! :-) Now, I'm not sure where you're based, but if it's in the UK, where export rates are high, then I'd argue it just doesn't make any sense to have a solar diverter for water heating as it will essentially cost more than heating with gas/oil because you'll be losing out on all that export revenue. Not sure if you had a chance to play around with my calculator here, but worth a go: garydoessolar.com/utilities/solardivertercalculator/ Good luck with your install, and I think you're going to like the GivEnergy AIO battery :-)

[@devjon123]

@@GaryDoesSolar Thank's for the response Gary. I thought I'd come back with an update. Solar install completed last week. 5.25kWh of solar panels, a Solis inverter and a Givenergy AIO with Gateway. I did not have a Solar Diverter fitted. I'm still on the "Variable Octopus" tariff as I thought that wise until I have a better understanding of the various options, and that is where I'm finding your videos so informative. I've just signed up for " Octoplus " and I've also signed up to your Patreon. Many thanks again for your outstanding content.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

@@devjon123 Great to hear your install has completed - and hopefully your system is working well 👍 That is so very kind of you to sign up to my Patreon - thank you very much - let me know on there if you have any questions about your system - I'll be asking for questions for a Q&A video that I'll be making in a week or so 🙂

[@philip_james]

I don't understand the calculations at 7:44 could you explain please. Where did the 12p loss come from? I'm on flux and charge at night at 17p kWh and force discharge between 16:00-19:00 at 28.8p so am I making a loss? I understand there is a 10% loss for AC charging the battery but my Solar array tops up the battery as I don't fully charge it off the grid.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Hi Philip, I recommend you watch the video that explains the "get rich scheme" in detail here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/enSkfnebdpVjrK8

[@CorwinPatrick]

If I remember correctly, He's Amortized the cost of the System (or just the Battery) to get a Total Cost. It's what you would need to do in a business situation to account for payback on everything from zero. I'm not entirely convinced it's necessary for home use as you have other reasons to purchase and install your system. However, it is good to know the technique, as it should be used when adding to your system.

[@philip_james]

@@GaryDoesSolar Thank you. I'm not sure I agree as you don't take into account the cost per kWh the solar panel or internet l inverter cost. The battery has already been paid for so it's not going to cost me anymore owning it so I'm working it each day to maximize my Export available. 😉

[@GaryDoesSolar]

​@@philip_james The rationale for calculating the cost per kWh for the battery is purely to help people understand the costs of certain battery actions. You'll see at the end of this video (4m30s in) kzbin.info/www/bejne/m3e6inmfpZukj68 I propose a very different approach on how to calculate the ROI of a solar and battery system. That's the reason I don't need to calculate the cost per kWh for the array/inverter. Does this make sense?

[@varnect203]

@@philip_james Even if the battery has already been payed for, it’s not something to just be disregarded in terms of savings calculations. It will increase the time until a given instillation pays for itself via savings/exports.

[@nzbluefish]

Another great video Gary ... I'll be waiting with interest for your later videos. We've just gone to a new provider for a wholesale spot import rate and fixed export rate. Early days for our strategy still. NZ has high fixed daily charges which are always dragging down earning opportunities. Just so you know 😂 ... New Zealand is still part of the Southern Hemisphere ... your bounding box needs to be a little bigger. 😊 ... cheers, and keep up the great work.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Thank you, and I'm looking forward to getting the rest of the series done :-) And profuse apologies for clipping New Zealand from the bounding box. I've fixed that this morning for future videos here: garydoessolar.com/files/corrected_irradiation_segments.png I'm so embarrassed! In terms of the daily charges, we have a charge of about 50p every day too - which I think is almost immoral given the number of elderly and vulnerable people living in the country, where every penny counts! They are typically very low users of energy and should not be paying for the energy companies that went bust (the price was increased mainly for that reason) :-( Could you tell me your provider please and the rates they have on offer? I'm trying to build a better view of the market there - thanks!

[@nzbluefish]

😂 ... it's a bit of a standing joke in NZ ... us missing on maps. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jZu3fYKelN-tZ8ksi=5UdwUHe0Mx1-Kaev ... we laugh about it and very kindly go about getting things fixed. Anyway, we've moved to Ecotricity and their ecoWholesale plan. Daily rate is $2.17, with a wholesale consumption spot rate and $0.1183 per kWh solar export. I'm trying to get more detail on the exact way the spot rate is set. I'll keep you posted. Just for background we will have just under 10kW solar shortly (currently 7.1 kW) with a 15 kWh battery. Thanks for all the great info you (and Tim) provide. Very useful learning material. Cheers, Innes

[@PaulSinnema]

Gary, you are based in the UK. I'm in The Netherlands. I'm in the process of getting a Battery and I want a big one (20+ kWh). Are any of your strategies going to work here?

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Hi Paul, I'm based in the UK (near Oxford). Yeah, I think you'll like part 2 of the series :-)

[@alanwalker6185]

Looks like a great series, Gary, and I’d love to put some of these actions into practice. Unfortunately I apparently live in one of these areas that can’t get a smart meter, as I repeatedly get told by my electricity supplier that there is no Wide Area Network at my location (south Devon) - computer just says No. The Data Communications Company (DCC), responsible for managing the roll-out of access to a WAN and therefore a smart meter, states that over 99% of properties have WAN access. Okay, so somebody has to be in the last 1%, but what hacks me off is that now-one seems to publish what work is being done to turn the 99% into 100%. No maps of where the 1% are, or timescale to complete any work. I don’t know whether you see a video about the DCC being part of the types of program your viewers would be interested in - or given the number of people affected it’s not really worthwhile. However, maybe someone out there in the Comments ether has some information on this that might be useful to me.

[@bradleyarcher9840]

I’m a smart meter engineer, in 8 years I’ve had maybe 3 houses I couldn’t fit a meter due to flint construction and basement supplies. I would think about changing companies as they are all smelts 2 and interchangeable with suppliers.

[@bradleyarcher9840]

We are also doing dual band and mesh networks for the ‘hard to reach’ customers where we bounce your connection up the road to another smart meter until we get a WAN.

[@alanwalker6185]

@@bradleyarcher9840 thanks for your comments, I wasn’t aware that “relay” smart meters were a thing. I’ll need to check them out. I’d also thought about switching to Octopus a few months back, but haven’t followed that through yet. At the time they also said that they didn’t think there would be sufficient WAN at my property, but said that they’d probably install a smart meter anyway and it would just act as a “dumb” meter until sufficient WAN was available. Ofcom’s website indicates that there’s a reasonable outside 4G signal, and although in my view it’s a bit patchy even outside, a mobile signal booster might be something to investigate further.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Hi Alan, thanks for the kind words - and sorry to hear about all the issues you're having with your smart meter. A video on the topic might be a good idea - I'll add to my list... thanks

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

Did everyone see that the Sahara Desert latitudes and Australian latitudes are the same ?????😊 A stable political environment is different.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Yeah, and this is one of the many reasons I own a (physical) globe - it's the best way to really understand how all the countries relate to each other geographically. Politics ultimately has to follow the will of the people, and the people are becoming more and more educated about renewables! :-)

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

@@GaryDoesSolar You are extremely relevant and practical. You will be a source of reference as the 'penny drops'. Hahaha. Even the government budget will win.

[@rhiantaylor3446]

I think we are at the early stages of Smart tariffs. Suppliers are prepared to drop the rate at night when the Wholesale rate falls but we were using some energy at night already to run our fridges and freezers so they want to increase the daytime rate so that they don't lose out overall. From a marketing perspective this is a big turn off. If they want to win new business from EV owners they would do better to simply introduce a low nighttime rate. If people start delaying high-use activity like washing machines to take advantage, Suppliers can still end up net positive if they can drive demand away from the peak, high Wholesale price period.

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Agreed, and it's great to see some energy suppliers testing out these scenarios (for example, Octopus Energy in the UK with ultra-cheap overnight rates for EV owners) to gather sufficient data that can be used to persuade energy regulators that this is the way forward. This is how early markets should operate, in my view :-)

[@jamescleaver5148]

Great video Gary Any views on the recent GivBack scheme from GivEnergy/Axle Energy?

[@GaryDoesSolar]

Thanks James. I'll be covering what are typically called "tariff automations" in part three of this series. GivBack is a good example of such, where a third party (in this case, Axle) controls your battery charging and discharging, to provide the most return during Demand Flexibility Service e (DFS) periods. For those that don't want the hassle of manually setting battery charge and discharge times (especially at short notice), it looks like a good scheme. Personally though, I prefer Octoplus (Octopus Energy's version of the scheme) - there's no battery automation, but I hear it may pay slightly better...

[@jamescleaver5148]

@@GaryDoesSolar Thanks Gary. I’m on the old FiT scheme so it’s a no brainer for me.