Elden Ring Lore | The Ancestral Followers (Part 2)

[@Hawkshaw]

Thanks to MANSCAPED for sponsoring today's video! Get 20% OFF + Free International Shipping + 2 Free Gifts with my promo code "HAWKSHAW" at mnscpd.com/Hawkshaw What do you think the Lands Between would become in an Age of the Ancestrals? We hope you enjoyed our take on the Ancestral Followers - let us know what your opinions are on them!

[@C_A_I_N_N]

Im at 5:12 and before i watch further i wanna throw my take on the pros and cons of the views of the ancestral followers and what i think is the best philosophy to take. Ok so for starters, i agree totally that society will always cause some amount of pollution in one way or another and disrupte the natural world. thats just the nature of making changes on such large scales that enable one group to flourish overly so which makes that aspect of it less ammendable to be ok with just as there are always sacrifices many make to maintain such societies order with those sacrifces often stealing away peoples freedom to do what they want, when they want, and to be as free as they want. The major things those points dont consider though is firstly the simple truth of the only strength us humans are born into this world with which isnt inherent strength, there are plenty stronger physically than us. It isnt claws that we can use to achieve so many goals, Its not sharp teeth that can bring down any foe. We werent born with eyes that can see miles away...... All us pathetic humans were born with was our ingeniutiy and our 2 hands....... Given that fact, to turn away from the products of our gifts is to turn away from what makes us human and to say that its wrong at its core which i think is a poor idea with an example as to why is that a knife is sharp and can cut you if you use it wrong but refusing to use it or doing what the ancestral followers do of essentially taking a plastic knife with a serrated edge since that cant easily at all cause undo harm but can at least still techincally cut what they want it to eventually, is a travesty. Basically as we look at advancements in greener energy production and just everything we can do now in a far healthier way for the world as well as our knowledge now of how to do things in a way that doesnt cause harm to the enviroment like logging understanding how to best make sure that the newly planted trees regrow stonger and faster than usual as well as being able to take into exact account just how much wood is needed allowing the total amount taken to be limited to only just what we need are just some examples of how its not wrong to use that real knife to achieve your ends if you know how to hold it and what you wanna cut right. Lastly as for their philosphy in the greater scheme of the world of elden ring, i agree that life and death are a natural cycle and that for something to have meaning reqiures it to have to be able to end eventually and without end, whats the point in worshiping or loving that thing anymore. if it will always be as it is there is no reason to be concerned for it as no matter what, it will always be. basically im of the mind to agree with that portion of their philosophy and would say my philosphy is that one should try to exist in a manner that doesnt cause undo harm to the world or those around them but also feel free to use the tools at their disposal to protect themseleves and the world they live in as they so choose and that ultimately if they are to accept on side of something whether that be order or life, to prevent the destruction of that concept, one must also accept its counterpart as without its counterpart, the concept couldnt have any meaning in the first place.

[@C_A_I_N_N]

22:00 hey! im over a quarter alaskan native and specifically tglinhit and yea i know i spelled that wrong almost certainly but i was in this weird position of having been born in modern soceity in washington and no not the dc one with my mother having been born on a res but put into adoption and being adopted by the most amazing couple of people that have put up with so much over the years yet still happily, kindly, and respectually help all of us out to the best of their abilities. hosetnly when i think about that and the bit i have learned about my peoples culture as well as the middle class life ive lived, i think thats why i have such a almost optomistic middle of the road approach especially since being someone who placed in the 75 percentile when i took my SAT's back in school, i in general have been the type of person who can see the deeper workings of a lot of things and in generall have been a lot more mature than most my age roughly likely being equal to most people in their later 50's and 60's metnal age wise which has just made it easier to grow up seeing the beauty in all sides of things and not labeling anything evil, wrong, or inherently bad unless there is A LOT of evidence to point to why it is that thing could/ more importantly WOULD cause inherent harm to people.

[@BurkeyTurger797]

a thing i found interesting about the Ancestral followers at an initial surface level glance was that; the world/ the perspective of the items are always emphasizing how everything is getting smaller and that this is a bad thing, and is deserving of scorn, well the Ancestral followers aren't, or maybe i should say. seems like that isn't happening with the ancestral followers

[@SupremeBeyonder]

Hey, the metal disks you mentioned @42:24 look more like clam shells than metal, just a thought, since they are removed from metal work in all their other gear.

[@Hawkshaw]

@@SupremeBeyonder Agreed they do look like shells as well! Makes me wonder... especially since there is such a lack of genuinely aquatic life in ER

[@leviathantb4014]

surprised you didn't bring up Torrent, the horned spirit horse who jumps in the air like the ancestor spirit.

[@jbark678]

Torrent is likely a juvenile ancestral spirit. The infant head looks a bit like his head.

[@KitsuneShapeShifter]

So happy you mentioned Sami peoples! I am Sami and I was screaming in my head about our traditions! Sami are Reindeer herders, antlers are extremely important! There's also the primordial white Reindeer that died to have its body become the world (similar to the giant Ymir in norse myth).

[@darlingxluxii7977]

That’s just so amazing ❤ wow I’m happy they took your traditions in Elden ring! It’s amazing they took inspirations of real life cultures in this game ❤❤❤

[@alexdalex3582]

Geeze, the whole world from a reindeer? Settle down Sami culture. Reindeer aren't everything.

[@KitsuneShapeShifter]

@@alexdalex3582 YES THEY ARE xD

[@reigoj8228]

@@alexdalex3582 sami and finns are cousins and their beliefs are actually hugely different here. For finns, it was a swan that laid down an egg and that egg gave birth to the world.

[@marving.8868]

Sami people are the ones with the cool cups carved out of wood right? I saw a couple small dokus about your Culter and it was very interesting it's a shame that Sami aren't as well known as Inuit or nativ American. And if I remember correctly the culture is on the brink of dying out because of assimilation and other factors. It is sad to see. In my opinion a country should have a overall identity between all ethnicities too stop a us vs them mentally, but not with erasing the culture of each ethnicity living in the society. I mean those border lines are all arbitrary chosen a long time ago but don't reflect what cultures are actually living inside those borders.

[@minerman60101]

The lone ancestral follower in the Lake of Rot has the immunizing horn charm+1, giving resistance to the scarlet rot of the lake, and furthering the idea that they are a lone scout investigating this domain. For the Red Wolves, I ask were they bred by the Carians to be magical or found by them? They could just be a magically inclined type of wolf who had spread across the Lands Between, and some were trained by the Carian family. The boss variant in Raya Lucaria has orange magic attacks which the wilderness ones do not, as well as additional jewelry (there is another boss variant in Gelmir Hero's grave, but I don't remember which kind it is). Their placements in Carian territories are behind their manor, at their moonlight altar, and in Raya Lucaria guarding Renalla. Outside of that, one is in the Gelmir Hero's Grave as I said, but the rest of them are only in places that also have Ancestral Followers and the petrified trees: Siofra River and Consecrated Snowfield. Albeit the one in the latter area is far away from the Ancestral Followers. I don't have any conclusions here, just that food for thought.

[@TheSuperRatt]

It should be noted, that unlike the Glintstone Dragons (Barring Adula, as they were intelligent enough to pledge a vow to Ranni, and learn Moon spells), the Red Wolves don't seem to have gained their sorcerous powers from consuming sorcerers. They have no glintstone growths on their bodies to suggest that they gained magic that way, either. I think the conclusion is clear: Red Wolves have the intellect necessary to cast sorcery. That they wear jewelry is another indicator of their intelligence, as well that they know a spell that was specifically developed by the Carian royal family, as a precursor to their glintstone blades. This spell is notably not drawn from a natural phenomenon, like the comet spell the Red Wolves also know; and would therefore have to be taught. I think we should be considering the Red Wolves as fully sapient and worthy of personhood; just as the Albinaurics are.

[@BurkeyTurger797]

all variants of the red wolf are known as "of Radagon" apart from the one in the gelmir grave which is known as "of the champion" i'm not sure if training would the word i'd use, or if like, Carians did it, unless you count Radagon as a Carian. im also not sure if they get their names from Radagons love for the great boss in Lucaria, rather than Radagon having a connection to all of them, but it is interesting that we find the lesser wolves at interesting lore enviroments for Carias history. The gelmire hero grave being "of the champion" is interesting, is this wolf belonging to a warrior of Rykard, possibly a gift? so we know that the red wolfs can be named for more than one person, implying that most do have a deep connection to Radagon (and i dont want to use Caria here, just because of the relevance to Radagon, and his relevance to the carians). but one being the possesion of someone else is interesting, and does suggest that the red wolves are mainly Radagons domain. with his son being Rykard, it does sort of link that a Gelmir warrior does have a red wolf, its just interesting that its some unamed "champion" that has the wolf. this Hero has such a vast grave, Hero's has an apostrophe implying that it is the grave of a singular person, rather than being a mass war grave. so this hero, is unnamed when we come about in the world, has a red wolf, has a big old grave, yet we dont know sod all about them, they seem like an important character, to, i would assume, at least, Rykard and Radagon and by extension, To Caria

[@willisbarrett2035]

​@@BurkeyTurger797 Radagon was just a "mere champion" before becoming Elden Lord, it could still be his wolf.

[@BurkeyTurger797]

@@willisbarrett2035 ooh, that's an interesting take!

[@Late0NightPC]

I do think your hypothesis on them just being a magically gifted species of wolf is likely. Their full names are "red wolves of Radagon", but that doesn't strictly inform us on if Radagon was their source, or if they just came to be so deeply associated with him that similar to any cultural icon, seeing one led people to also think of Radagon. An example in our own world is Darwin's Frog. Was the frog created by Darwin? Of course not, it was just one of the species Darwin discovered and later researchers chose to name it after him. I would imagine that, after Radagon "vanished" and the wolves were no longer needed as his warriors, the ones that weren't directly under the care of the Carian family were either let go of, or they just dispersed on their own and returned to living life as a "normal" wolf rather than as a magic-using warrior in service of Radagon and the Order. Each one we find is located near a small pack of regular wolves, as though they began to raise a pack in that time, and will respawn if you rest after beating them, with the only one notably not following those two traits being the Raya Lucarian wolf, and the Champion's wolf

[@horrorsran]

i actually thing the discs of metal(?) you were referring to on the horns and as earrings on the shaman followers look more like clams or pearl oysters, which would align with their beliefs etc - the iridescent texture on them looks like mother of pearl, and if you look at the side you can actually see a slight dip along the center that looks like it could be a closed opening of a shell

[@scholaroftheworstgame3313]

On a less serious note, the 'metal' pieces dangling from the shining horned headband are probably supposed to be the shells of bivalve molluscs such as mussels.

[@RedstoNeman0]

I'm flabbergasted that this is the one lore channel to evolve into full-on documentaries with entire analysis of cultures, fictional and real, and at the same time still remind people that gameplay concessions are not always lore. Totally not what I expected when the channel was originally more focused on restarting lore assumptions from zero contrary to community headcanons, but this is very welcome

[@DanielGarcia-rx3kt]

If you like this stuff you should check out Tarnished Archaeologist. That channel takes an archaeological approach and also covers many world cultures and their histories as needed for their analyses.

[@ArriamOfAstora]

Smoughtown is one of my favorite, they do content very similar to this and it's my favorite style of lore dives. I thank Vaati for bringing me to the FROM lore side of KZbin, but I honestly stopped watching his stuff quite a while ago in favor of this style of content

[@gunnarschlichting9886]

@@ArriamOfAstora Vaati is now high production value, but more surface level stuff. (And that's kinda what he always was) Still great, and a good way of introducing new people to the lore, but it's not the in-depth stuff the people really obsessed with the lore are looking for. Give him a couple years and he'll probably have more in-depth stuff as well, but if you're looking for the cutting edge, as it's being discovered lore, he is not who you should go to. I still respect him for what he does, but like you I don't really watch his stuff anymore. Like, I do eventually, but more as a "might as well" than eagerly awaiting it. Hawkshaw and Tarnished Archeologist are now my two favorite, with Smoughtown a pretty close third.

[@darlingxluxii7977]

Yes everyone is really amazing with their content telling stories. There’s a lot to watch and learn. It’s just great when videos give so much information than the game itself it’s more amazing to listen and enjoy ❤❤❤

[@baines803]

​@@gunnarschlichting9886I still go to vaati cause well the production is really good it reminds me of a movie but watching hawkshaw really makes me interested in things

[@Pizzifrizzo]

I'm surprised you didn't mention a pretty common feature of the Horned God in various cultures: he ritually dies at the coming of Winter, only to be reborn come the Spring. Given the sacrificial practices of the Ancestrals and their conviction that something great will be reborn of the Ancestral Spirits, I've instintically assumed that they see the Era of the Erdtree as the "winter of life", because life and death are so strictly regulated by the Golden Order that, for them, it equates with cold stagnation. Hence, they think that a new Lord will arise come the Spring of Life, when the Erdtree will stop obstructing their practices. As of now, they're almost "forced" to imbibe the Ancestral Spirits with sacrificial life, because otherwise it'd either be recycled by the Erdtree or fall prey to Destined Death. This is a religion about the Erdtree as much as it is about the Spirits, it's just that, for them, the Erdtree is the Satan figure to defeat through their virtuous practices. On another note, I'm glad someone starts mentioning the idea that the Ancestrals are a recent revanchist cult rather than an ancient civilisation. I was starting to fear I might be the only one, implausible as it may be, since no one talks about them at all.

[@ozsun9736]

It's amazing that you picked up on the Ainu people, as i believe that the form of the Lands between have an uncanny resemblance to Hokkaido if you look at the form of the whole map/island.

[@NeverUseAnApostrophe]

*has

[@shira_yone]

That ending is really impactful, a surprisingly hopeful future to the lands between.

[@JoeKerr420]

Would be interested in hearing your take on Vyke and the frenzy flame

[@buzhidao5065]

I see this comment on every lore channel, but for me you’re creating the absolute pinnacle of Fromsoftware games KZbin c o n t e n t right now. The well-researched attention to detail and comparisons to real world cultures and mythologies help to bring out the significance of the storytelling in these games, reminding me that they’re a reimagining of these same archetypal narratives as an interactive and participatory art form. You’re really bringing out the best in these games with these Hawkshaw, looking forward to seeing more :)

[@keighne7650]

Very few do it as well as hawkshaw

[@michaeljohnston8891]

The idea of singing and dancing to channel spiritual energy seems to be akin to entering a kind of flow state. Anyone who’s actually had practice with dance or music will know what this feels like. In universe, it seems to be a kind of cure to spiritual kegare/stagnation. This would explain why the blind swordsman taught Malenia how to dance with a blade to stave off her rot

[@Jediahgames]

So happy that you're getting sponsors now

[@TheHogfatherInvades]

The followers of all time!

[@nbmoleminer5051]

That's more the Ancient Dragons

[@AngeloChorus]

You are the best Souls-Lorist out there; keep up the Amazing and Enlightening work!

[@PoyoDesuka]

I'd like to take this time to praise the camerawork of both parts. Entire video is stellar, but particularly excellent footage!

[@MercedesSLSJpak]

Been waiting for this! The Elden Ring lore community is so excellent it’s really made the old DS days look amateurish, but man have I enjoyed you stepping up your game to stay competitive! Amazing stuff

[@flamingmanure]

yep, and its mostly because elden ring lore is deeper and more original than DS and bb, DS lore can be summarized as greek + norse myths with a dash of berserk, bb can be summarized as copy pasted lovecraft fanfiction(to such a degree that fromsoft literally copy pasted gods from the lovecraft mythos and their exact powers and changed their name then called it a day, old ones = great ones and the invisible oaden = dunwich horror, yharnam is just moutains of madness + stoker for example), but ER is just so deep, dense messy and grand!! i cant really pinpoint its inspirations, its like a blend of game of thrones and LOTR and its political writing complexities but with gods rather than humans, all done in the fromsoft way! and for once humans arent just needlessly shat on as small and insignificant in the story, i got pretty bored with that narrative tbh, humans in ER are almost just as important to the plot as the gods, tarnished are literally the first elden lords descendants, not some no name undead or edgy punkass random hunter. personally i think ER and demons souls have the best most original lore, didnt go deep into sekiro lore yet though so no comment on that, ds2 is pretty nifty with its lore and has my favorite DS npc which is aldia.

[@coreyrachar9694]

Hawkshaw has been on another level since the beginning. It's just that the others are starting to catch up now.

[@josiahcmiller]

@@flamingmanureJesus Christ.

[@MercedesSLSJpak]

@@coreyrachar9694 ye that’s what I meant lol I just love when competition means better stuff overall - for instance Hawkshaw’s writing was always the best in the biz but the editing and gameplay footage has really stepped up to match it

[@UltraTaka1]

​@@flamingmanure nah.

[@tenayabc1552]

This makes me want to do an ancestral follower run!

[@joshuapotter3326]

What ending do you think they would pick? I was thinking Prince of Death ending ya know returning death to the land so the natural cycle can return?

[@gunnarschlichting9886]

@@joshuapotter3326 Prince of Death is making Those Who Live In Death (aka the undead) a natural part of Order so they aren't persecuted. Literally all endings require unsealing the Rune of Death, so I think all of them include returning death to the land.

[@GaleHarquebus]

​@@joshuapotter3326 Probably none, since they live apart from the workings towards the Erdtree. Like the Bloody Fingers, Recusants, followers of the Haligtree or of Rot, none of their world views require harnessing or taking down the Erdtree.

[@Lethemographilogical]

Their ending would be just putting the game down and going outside for a bit lol.

[@temuulenchoi]

I too worry about the fading of my "Lands Between"!

[@AbelMusa]

Finally someone gets it. The good ending we can't get. The only ones in the LB who have their shit toghether.

[@jbark678]

They don't really need an ending because they'll adapt to whatever the natural world presents. Of the existing endings, Goldmask's ending and Ranni's ending are probably the most in line with their beliefs.

[@AlsoMeowskivich]

those "discs of metal" look more like mollusk shells to me, which makes sense considering their proximity to a great buried seaside.

[@ashleyjohnson1129]

Best Manscaped segue evar!! 😂

[@Late0NightPC]

I think the reason for the Ancestral spirit being hewn into the Erdtree, but away from it's purview is found in the word choice used. It was "Hewn" into the Erdtree. When something is Hewn, that means that it is chopped down, such as a tree being hewn to make lumber, or that it was carved out of a larger unrefined form, such as a statue being hewn from a block of stone. I think the Regal Ancestor Spirit's remembrance was hewn into the Erdtree as a result of the player killing it. Over time the Erdtree has begun to consume so much of the natural world that at this point it's almost identical to being another fundamental aspect of nature. The Grace of the greater will flows naturally throughout the land and gathers into sites of grace, Tarnished seem to just "appear" with no distinct cause beyond "dunno, yesterday they weren't Tarnished, today they are", and especially now with Deathblight spreading through the roots of the Erdtree, it's begun to sprout up basically everywhere, even in floating Faram Azula, which is presumably as far away from the Erdtree as something can get. We can even see with Boggart and the Dung Eater's quest that people don't strictly need to be buried in the Erdtree's roots to be reborn, just dying is enough for your soul, or lack of, to be reborn through the Erdtree. So when we kill the Regal Ancestral Spirit, it's soul is pulled away from the natural cycle that it should be a part of, and carved into the Erdtree as a remembrance. It should have been part of nature, but now the Erdtree has spread so deeply into the natural order that not even the spirits can fully escape it. Or alternatively, and perhaps a bit more likely as it doesn't fall into the pit of "why the Regal spirit and not the normal one though?", is the other word, Remembrance. The spirit doesn't get pulled into the Erdtree, and it's just going to keep doing it's own natural rebirth process on it's own. What we get via Remembrances aren't "the boss' soul", but rather a manifestation of the memory of that boss, proof that it indeed did exist, not unlike how young couples might carve their initials into a tree trunk. We kill the Regal spirit, and then through whatever process, the existence of the Regal spirit and it's memories are carved into the Erdtree to be remembered for the rest of the tree's lifespan. Though, I would generally disagree with a point you seem to be making towards the end, that the Followers seem like a successful order. In context of "It's a game and this is a story exploring one set of themes within the game space", you do make a good point, but if the world of ER is examined as a real genuine "world", I'd disagree that the Followers would ever be successful for one primary reason. They chose stagnation rather than progression. It isn't stagnation in the same sense as the Lake of Rot, but by forgoing letters, they are crippling their ability to learn and grow. Yes, communal record keepers and storytellers can keep a great deal of information alive for generations by passing it down, parent to child, but there's no possible way that a group can only rely on that and also succeed against other rival groups when they refuse to grow at the same rate as their rivals. Even more so, they forgo metal working, and while their weapons are quite deadly due to their raw power, imagine what they would be like facing down an army with canons and crude gunpowder weaponry in the future. Their arrows might be extremely accurate and very dangerous, but a trebuchet could smash them into pieces from substantially farther away than the archer could shoot a single arrow. Their ability to live in harmony with nature is certainly admirable, and their emphasis placed on sustainable life is definitely something the Golden Order should learn quite a few lessons from. But even ignoring the argument of "If the Golden Order was stopped, someone else would have done the same thing", there is still the issue of how their life style is not something that a vast civilization could ever sustain itself with. They may be able to live successfully in small groups, but to become "a new order" that spans the entire lands between? I doubt they'd ever be able to do that without allowing themselves to take up metalworking for stronger tools, or letters and writing to spread information and knowledge.

[@GilboPaints]

35:25 you mention spiritual relations. The Lakota people have a phrase that translates to “all my relations” that is said during some ceremonies. And (as far as my limited understanding of it) it is said to remind us of our oneness with all things. We gain strength by cultivating relationships with the world, people, creatures, and places around us. A physically evident represents of that makes perfect sense to me when compared to what I’ve heard.

[@RomanCollapses]

I feel spoiled, man. 54 minutes of Ancestral Follower lore? Please sign me up.

[@dilbrobaggin3723]

Right? I’d have been satisfied with 10 minutes 🥹

[@lovesiriusblack]

Been loving the part 1 of this series so hope I love this one as much!

[@MidnightatMidian]

The Sumo which is a religious ancestral martial art may have the answer for the ''stomping''. Indeed, they are stomping the ground of the dojo, which is a sanctuary, to ward off evil spirits that live under the earth, purifying the sanctuary before a tournament.

[@D4rthsunny]

Ah, Thanks for mentioning the Blackfoot people. I rarely ever hear anything about us in any sort of media.

[@Endra88]

The lore just gets deeper and deeper. My third eye opens whenever soulsborne creators uncover all these real world inspirations to connect the vague history of FromSoft's games. Thank you for your efforts. Your voice is captivating. Your videos inspire my own writing and worldbuilding. Thank you all

[@hyliadreamer]

There are many, many interesting points to consider, here. 1: The Shaman do not need to be quick to anger, and do not need weapons, because they're so powerful. If they, in a moment of sheer rage, were to let loose, goodness knows what might happen--but it might clash with the natural order, which is why they remain so cool, even when attacked. They're not a destructive people, and blind, hot rage is a destructive force. The Shaman know their own strength, and see no reason to wield it in all its force. An example from the real world: A doctor once took a bull calf, surgically removed its horn buds, filed them so that one side each was flat, then reimplanted them in the calf so that they would fuse together into one horn. The "unicorn bull" wound up being the dominant male in its herd, because any other bulls that challenged it would be at a distinct disadvantage; and, evidently realizing its own power, the unicorn bull was extremely gentle around other animals. (This is one hundred percent true, though certainly unethical--but this was about a century ago, when very few people cared about animal rights. The doctor wanted to see if there could be a potential biological basis for unicorn sightings throughout history.) 2A: Matriarchal societies, and women holding power. Ancient Egypt was a patriarchy, but the royal bloodline was strictly MATRIARCHAL. The line of legitimate descent was passed down through the mothers. A woman knows her children are hers, whereas a man can only be certain (in times prior to DNA testing) that his child is his if it resembles him. Thus, we find pharaohs marrying their half-sisters, nieces, or other female relatives, in order to guarantee the legitimacy of their rule. 2B: Another take on the above. In ancient Celtic culture, it was common for the king to symbolically "marry" the Mother Goddess, in order to legitimize his rule. Because the true king was the consort of the Goddess. Thus, again, power comes to males through intermarrying with the royal or sacred female. (Amusingly, the "patriarchy" that the MeToo movement talks about is a considerably new concept. World history and mythology are both filled with examples of power being held, or passed on, through women.) 3: The Ancestral Followers are, as you've stated, a relatively recent society. Perhaps the reason why they drop Runes when slain is because they still have a "race memory" of writing/letters. (The concept of "race memory" is, in our real world, a discredited and disproven notion; but it could very well be a reality in Elden Ring's universe.) At some point before leaving mainstream society behind, the predecessors of the Ancestral Followers were presumably literate/educated, and some trace of that knowledge is still inadvertently passed down. Given enough generations, with enough years, their Rune drops might eventually fade away entirely; but they're too young as a society, as yet, for that to occur in-game. 4: Getting back to the land has seen a resurgence, in recent years, with the off-the-grid movement. 5: The Shamans holding all the power, and passing it down to the Warriors. It makes me think of how Catholic canon law stated, until very recently, that only the priest could partake of the Eucharist. (I'm not Catholic--I'm not even Christian; I'm an atheist--so I don't know the precise details of when that changed. Sometime before I was born, I know that much.) Also, in ancient Egypt, only the high priests and the pharaoh could go into the most sacred part of the temples, as the high priests were the emissaries of the gods, and the pharaoh was both the "son" of a god (who took the form of the pharaoh's human father in order to impregnate his mother--a further example of 2A a few paragraphs ago), and a deified human. 6: The duller-colored, sometimes grayish, eyes of the Shaman. In eye-color symbolism, gray eyes are usually associated with extremely high intelligence. In Greek mythology, Athena was often called "the gray-eyed goddess"; and Sherlock Holmes was described in Conan Doyle's stories as having gray eyes. (My own eyes are on the grayer side of blue, so...well, draw your own conclusions as to whether or not there's any truth to the idea.) I'm pretty sure I had some other ideas that I wanted to explore in this comment. But I've forgotten them, and it's 3:38 AM, so I'm up WAY too late! Anyway, thanks for giving me so much to think about, and I apologize for writing such a long comment!

[@lemonautical]

41:45 the greater will and golden order have done so much to pollute the lands between, runes are like microplastics; not even the ancestral followers can get away from them

[@Schmurgan]

I love your comparison of runes to microplastics.

[@MossOwnsYouYT]

Every video produced on this channel is done so with great mindfulness to the internal lore, references to historical literature, and aspects of architecture used to make a more full understanding and narrative for this deeply crafted world. As always this is a 10/10 creation Hawkshaw.😊

[@jellydamgood]

Cant wait for the dlc to tell us just how monstrous the manlet god is

[@tylernelson2218]

I’ve been looking forward to this

[@ENERGYFATE]

🎉wohoo ive been waiting for this one🎉

[@MercedesSLSJpak]

Oh btw about the Amish - central Pennsylvanian here, and they’re one of my favorite parts about living here. They provide a ton of services to the community like excellent produce, baked goods and meat which are healthier than grocery store food at a much cheaper rate than those stores, and though you shouldn’t get dogs from them (they inbreed them to the point where “Amish dogs” are a local meme for dogs that are dumb as hell) I’ve only ever had good personal interactions with them and admired their way of life

[@nbmoleminer5051]

You've only seen the good not the bad

[@Quader417]

When it comes to male and female roles i dont necessarily think it even applies strictly to biological sex it just applies to the energy of the soul. Miquelle is technically a boy but has the spiritual energy of a woman. Our player character is chosen to be female and maybe other female tarnished like Nepheli Loux have male soul energy because compared to someone like Fia and Roderika that are also female tarnished but clearly give off very different energies. Fia is willing to kill she could be considered a warrior by some but still wouldn’t be “manly”, Rennala is a described as a Queen and Queen only even though she was almost certainly was on the frontlines of her own war, whereas with Godfrey and Radagan, King and warrior are used almost interchangeably or at least as evolutions of each other. Its hard to know because there as so few examples and the examples we do have are abstract and don’t necessarily follow the same logic but at least with the player character and miquelle there is a minimal amount of undeniable evidence that while biological sex is the predominant signifier of spiritual and cultural roles it isn’t necessarily the sole decider

[@Hawkshaw]

We agree. We actually cut a small segment there that would've delved into some what you've brought up so well here, but thought we'd keep the video from becoming too long! Perhaps something for another video

[@Quader417]

@@Hawkshaw well thanks for the affirmation. I’ve watched dozens of hours of video glad to know i can at least recognize the nuances even if I can’t explain them away🤣

[@Quader417]

@@Hawkshaw and yes would love to see it explored in another video one day!

[@referencetosomething4187]

One detail I find fascinating is the resembalce the ancestiral followers have to the omen, in terms of proportions and coloration. It's almost as if they draw upon the same primal sprouting force of the crucible, but omen are torn apart by a rappid affliction of growth, whereas the followers are gruadially growing into this new form

[@Trimondius]

45:43 maybe its best we dont know the answer to that question.....

[@Autismo_the_Impaler]

At 43:14 the things hanging off their headband is not metal it looks more like freshwater mussel shells depending on where you're at in the southeastern united states you can go to any body of freshwater and typically find mussel shells on the shore of a lake or river.

[@Hawkshaw]

Agreed, they could be shells which wouldn't break their rules therefore. It is interesting if so, the only clams that come to mind in-game are from DS1!

[@jaxdakid5598]

i’ve been waiting for this! Thanks for your hard work. It’s very enjoyable.

[@darkmystic7764]

To be fair, we Swedes/Scandinavians have also grossly treated the Sami like animals.

[@billyshakespeare1696]

Your videos are so impressive and deep! Thank you for your hard work

[@Graff-z4x]

This two-part series is perfect and finally gives the Followers the attention they deserve! Once again the proportions of the "Ancient Dynast" "Elden John" bearded man statue come to mind. First off, he looks like a giant/troll/follower build physically. Second, he has what appears to be roots/branches growing all over his lower half. His moses-esque tablet seeming to represent the written word the followers eventually abandoned. I would like to offer that the culture of the Followers, like many of the real world tribes you mentioned, could be a lot older than we think. Just because the cultural practices are currently extant and without direct written reference, does not mean that they weren't in practice prior to the current order. In fact, the opposite is likely true, tribal relations are today analyzed and seen as human relations before the practice of slavery. A glimpse of how we were before the Greco-Roman nuclear family unit. Before civilization codified social classes to differentiate wealth and power. When social relations were largely matriarchal. Even the Amish are not "new", or even "returning" to nature, but are upholding old traditions (16th century country living) in the face of newer technologies all around them. In the case of the Followers, they have no written word, or even abandoned it, so any history of them would be very hard to find indeed. However... I want to make the argument that the very act of motivating bud growth could've been the Crucible itself, or at least proto-Crucible. The big question for me is when/why did the transition occur where the ancient bearded man's importance was replaced by the weird twisted-neck dude holding the already sprouted... sprouts. What essentially looks to me like the appropriation of the natural wealth of a free people, used to further exploit, divide, and rule the world. Much love, 🙌🌞

[@ShadeStarMC]

woo one hour ladssss

[@kidfazer]

Love when Hawkshaw uploads 👌🏾

[@darlingxluxii7977]

They’re my absolute favourite bunch of Elden ring! I enjoy going to nokstella and nokron, hearing their singing and their outfits are so cute! They are honestly beautiful and have a enchanting mystical feel to them. I feel like when we enter to them we are disturbing their peace in a way ❤

[@connorsmith1005]

THE FADING OF THEIR LANDS BETWEEN 😂

[@FLITT]

In Ireland, you find depictions of the great Irish elk everywhere. On buildings and before we switched to Euro on our coins. A leftover of our pagan/celtic past.

[@ultra824]

i find the presence of ancestral followers at the minor erdtree interesting, the avatar seems unbothered by their presence despite the seeming animosity between their respective groups. perhaps the avatar is loyal only to the specific minor erdtree it guards and is indifferent to the main tree? furthermore, as the minor erdtree is new growth, could they be trying to integrate it into the fold of their own belief system, similar to what miquella did with the haligtree? This is also potentially related to the remembrance being hewn into the erdtree, there's an indirect connection there. The absence of shamans there is also noteworthy, to my knowledge that's the only location in the game where physical shamans appear in significant numbers with no shamans around. as to the spirit forms of some of them, i suspect the spirit versions are actually something like astral projections of the ones near the regal remains, being projected via the rituals led by the shamans. this would allow them to protect a wider territory without putting themselves at too much risk, and may be a technique loosely related to the summoning of spirit ashes or puppets. It's worth considering that the nox are their close neighbors, and there's no indication that they aren't on good terms, so they may have observed the practice of puppetry and adapted to something more in tune with nature. this possibly also explains the silver tear like ornamentation on the shaman's headbands, it's a bit of cultural blending and possible evidence of trade between the groups. i doubt theres a better group to buy meat or furs from in the area, after all. It might seem strange for them to be willing to trade for worked metal, but it's stated that they _eschew_ metalworking in terms of emotional connotation, that's a pretty mild word, if they were opposed to the very concept, abhor, revile, disdain, or even reject would have been more appropriate.

[@gavinmcphie6936]

Hey could you guys add timestamps for this one? They're just so convenient for watching longer videos and I appreciated you doing it for the last one!

[@Writh811]

I was hoping you would touch on why the Female Followers had Finger Print Charms. You talked about them being made of metal (they look like stone to me) but didn't mention the Fingerprint etched into each one. I can't make heads or tails of it.

[@viserysdeservedbetter5030]

I don't think these are iron discs. It looks like clams shells. I'm writing about a shining horned headband that shamans wear.

[@ro-bal3724]

Cheeky little Heimdall shot in there. I see Hawkshaw has good taste.

[@Tarcon_Vaagh_69]

Great video as always. I didn't read all the comments but I haven't seen anyone commenting on the mentioned tribe at 21:37 . Because we had already a connection to them through Umeko Ando who was an Ainu singer. And in the Network Test, the now used Song of Lament didn't exist, instead the Chanting Dames were singing a song of Umeko Ando from her album Ihunke. I thought it's worth mentioning. There could've been a number reasons why it was cut afterwards. Maybe there was problems with the rights of using parts of it but I highly doubt it just because of how old the song is and the lack of popularity obviously. Maybe Miyazaki simply didn't had the guts to leave it in or didn't feel it fair or something like that. However I'd say it didn't fit into the theme of the game properly and for this reason I wonder how could it live in the game up until the Network Test. They really change the things up until the last moments huh? :D

[@nsipep]

Amazing

[@jatelitherius9842]

By jove he did it again, sullying the wonderful music of dicey dungeons in an ad

[@jackreacher7495]

I think the ancestor spirit is the phenomenon from which new souls emerge.

[@swordierre9341]

They likely removed the rot varients of the ancestral followers because at some point someone suggested it would be "insensitive". So they decided to leave it more ambiguos, by just having one normal follower there.

[@alpacaofthemountain8760]

Amazing video! Always was amazed by the Ancestral Followers and Ancestral Spirit

[@jbark678]

Something I'm curious about is whether the followers always looked the way they do or if they grew from typical human appearance via their spirit channeling rituals.

[@Quader417]

I hope you understand that i just went off on like a 10-15 minute tangent so i could listen to Mario 64 music i hope you’re proud of yourself💀😂

[@Hawkshaw]

Mission accomplished... I think

[@nbmoleminer5051]

I want to return to the Order of the Ancient Dragons that of the Crucible/Pre the current version of the Greatree/Erdtree ltheir order never should have ended I'd like one game where the Ancient Dragons aren't screwed over.

[@caffeinechaos1334]

So... there are Green Man looking carvings or architectures on the different buildings in ER. They look very similar to these 15:35

[@kadinwisniewski6928]

The entire outro section just makes me feel sad about us, the player, violently intruding into their insulated, complete, harmonious lifestyle. Exploring Siofra River for the first time genuinely gave me an intense, visceral feeling that I was an intruder who did not belong there. It made me feel like the villain.

[@rhynlock11]

this antler spiritual connection reminds me of the winter queen from Warcraft which is a mighty being connected to death and spiritual rebirth that features a big set of antlers that are clearly connected or maybe help her channel her power. devs may have similar inspirations as Fromsoftware on that

[@Neptunequeen42]

I always thought the medallions hanging from the antlers were shells or nacre, actually. It still accomplishes the intent of looking like fruit and invoking the color of silver (are ancestral followers originally Nox? they're certainly grey enough) but it doesn't have to explain away the presence of actual metal.

[@ajackass5950]

The celts persisted long past the iron age. We're still where we have always been, and everywhere else.

[@PerfectSense77]

A story like the Green Man being shared between many cultures doesn't necessarily mean they all came up with it independently -- in fact it can just mean that the story is incredibly old. Because the story part of their ancient shared culture before they branched off into their individual geographic areas. Look up The Wild Hunt if you're interested in this.

[@facundomorera9762]

torrent is a spirit horse and it has horns

[@magnuspeacock5857]

I do wonder how much of the Green Man/Horned Lord imagary came from GRRM as opposed to FS. Off the top of my head I cant think of anything in their other games that explicitly use those themes, but in ASOIAF GRRM uses that branch of mythology literally everywhere in his symbolism. With that in mind, GRRM's influence on Elden Ring was mostly stuff that happened a very long time before what we play. This is a tenuous link, but to me it suggests that the ancestral followers are older that you have been saying.

[@oliversinclair3834]

43:25 I know it's 7 months late but instead of metal discs, could they be abalone shell? Many cultures use abalone shells for a wide use of things, from rituals to medicial remedies

[@AlsoMeowskivich]

It's interesting how the souls games were mostly about death, and elden ring is more like a theme of rebirth and the competing processes of such.

[@wushiba]

amazing video, thank you

[@wallyslow]

i think the ancestral shaman women might be Numen . They are slightly taller , are spiritual. Maybe they are even the assasins from that faithfull night who as now repending themselves by becomming good energy conduits.

[@revenant097]

Awesome work

[@eldenthugshaker]

For Radagon's wolf, I believe it is there because Golden Order Fundamentalism and the beliefs of the Ancestral Followers are the same at their core. All was One. Then came fractures and births. "All things yearn to converge". Radagon's journey of perfection is in my opinion, to rejoin the One. Your mention of the Followers embodying Regression and Causality reflects this. Both represent "Natura est Deus in Rebus", or Nature is god in all things. God in Elden Ring does not exist apart, but is within all, with Arcane stat being the best example in my opinion.

[@Quader417]

So does this make the religion of the ancestral spirits and that of the crucible one in the same? Obviously they’re not of the crucible themselves as they wear antlers instead of being born with them and virtually none of those of the crucible follow anything but some version of the golden order or miquelle but the because they’ve been subjugated since the dominance of the erd tree But they both obviously make a clear connection to horns and antlers and trees. If those of the crucible learned to live in harmony with nature like ancestral followers then maybe their horns and other aspects would be more aligned and stronger with nature instead being gnarled to the point where i think Mohgs horn took out one of his eyes and Morgott had to have some of his excised so he could see properly but that’s a theory for another day

[@pauloeduardodiasdasilva6721]

The one thing in this video I'm not so sure about is when you talk about how the followers drop runes. Sure, it's a lore explanation for it, but I feel like it's just a gameplay thing. These guys are kind of tough enemies and going through an entire region of the map not getting stuff to upgrade your character would be very upsetting. So, even though I think your explanation for it is ok, I still believe it's mostly a gameplay thing rather than a lore thing. It's like the thing when in all souls games there's some sort of lore rationalization for enemies respawning, but deep down it's just a gameplay mechanic.

[@kingofthefleetians]

Cernnunos was the gaulish God of travel, speed, and trade, with his true associations with nature most likely come from the wilderness that gaulish travelers and merchants would have traveled through. Neo pagans and primarily Wiccans however, hijacked him and made a "nature fertility God" like pan when he much closer to being an equivalent of odin or hermes

[@ABurntMuffin]

"our passion to maintain a healthy world" *meanwhile:* me, full madness build invading people "I jUsT wAnNa WaTcH tHe WoRlD bUrN"

[@sneekmuch]

These rotten ancestrals are in the convergence mod

[@soarel325]

There definitely seems to be some sort of significance to the divine feminine in Elden Ring. The fact that seemingly only women can be hosts of the titular device - with the one male Empyrean being androgynous, pre-pubescent, and with a female aspect/sub-identity - is very notable. As an aside, at 41:19 - I don’t think it’s accurate to say that Gold predates the Greater Will just because it predates the Erdtree, since the Elden Ring and Greater Will that sent it are important to the Farum Azula society. (Also, none of the societies centered around Gold seem to directly worship the Greater Will, even if it is seen as a holy being).

[@Holy_Grapefruit]

Now I just started playing elden ring a week ago. The role between genders could also be similar to other souls games. Due to birth and rebirth, both literally. Most women also you to become something for them. As if they're giving birth to a new Elden Lord, Consort etc. Also nurturing seems to be a theme. The ancestral shamans seem to nurture the head. The deathbed character seems to nurture you, console you, making your questions seem like nothing more than just that rather than something to become paranoid about.

[@d3thkn1ghtmcgee74]

The ancestral followers are probably the nox who regret their banishment and trying to repent for their forefathers actions

[@jaquesobryan8085]

Slay pt. 2

[@joshuapotter3326]

after watching this does anyone know what ending in game the ancestral followers would pick if they had beaten the elden beast?(EDIT) I feel like although its seen as a bad ending I think they would pick the death prince ending, I believe this since death is a natural part of life and with them being naturalists and like Hawkshaw believes he thinks they separated from civilization when the death rune was removed. Any thoughts on this?

[@crowstakingoff]

It seems the only female ancestral followers (the shamans) are in the upper area of Nokron, while only the males are found below. Maybe they're guarding them?

[@farisafif3305]

There is a male and female pair in Consecrated snowfield, between giant tree at the west of the map, where you are invaded by Sanguine Noble

[@caffeinechaos1334]

There are no animals with horns in Elden Ring, only antlers I believe. So where did they get them for their headpieces? Omens???

[@ghostflossy2403]

The dragons have horns

[@yawningking]

There is something ironic about watching a video on the rejection of modernity and seeking authenticity with a sponsored ad in it and two ads from KZbin every five minutes.

[@elmine7707]

51:23 thats Stardew

[@Deadgye]

Question answered. They never miss because they have soul hack turned on.

[@comradejet9373]

What was so funny to me for the entire video is every time narrator was listing how spiritually important antlers are in cultures around the Word - i thought back to how here in Russia getting antlers means you got cucked.

[@ajackass5950]

Bro has the most out there pronunciation of Navajo

[@jonathanc5011]

i love your videos

[@orbitthederg]

Is some of the music in this taken from Kameo??? That shit was my childhood

[@Hawkshaw]

Well noticed!

[@ClayJoTheBurninator]

I'm not sure that stags and antlers have any prominent part in the Celtic Beltane celebrations. I spent a while searching for any connection as I'm not sure how you've picked that up, and the only connection I found was on an obscure blog about Yorkshire paganism... So the connection seems like a corruption of actual Celtic practice. I mean we had Cernunnos but there's no specific connection to Beltane.

[@davidlejenkins]

I know I'm going to get a bunch of flack for this but I was really bummed out by this video. I have been your greatest fan for 7 years since your first video. I loved the quality and depth of your lore, your original Dark Souls videos were 90% hidden/obscure lore and 10% speculation with big reveals and excitement mixed with nostalgic video games soundtracks. This video is more like 20% lore with 40% real world history and 40% speculation (with little cool video game soundtracks) and it really bummed me out to listen to it. You used to be the definitive Dark Souls lore enthusiasts (praise the lore) and this video really shook my opinions of you.

[@IndieGinge]

Idk if you'll feel better after hearing this, but Hawkshaw seems to have moved into what me might refer to more as "proper" literary criticism. This is an attempt to find the meanings held within the text, often by looking at it as a text that has inspirations in other texts. This is a throughline that extends back to the first game, but means something different in Elden Ring. While in DS there was a glut of amateurs tackling an incredibly opaque story and getting too caught up on some details, overlooking others, and making assumptions that stuck like glue despite their flaws, the game has changed. Elden Ring is much a much more accessible story in many ways, and much larger in scope. The most interesting analysis we can do is try to explore more about what we find in the massive world by seeing what inspired this work of art, symbolically or historically. Tarnished Archeologist, Quelaag and Hawkshaw are all doing this on different levels. The deepest mysteries have yet to be discovered because the game seems to have buried them utterly, or it is still too large for the people combing it to find the keys. Currently I'm inclined to believe the former rather than latter. I also think that the clarification that the followers are a modern phenomenon was something of the old style of vid, as they were largely ignored in favor of the demigods and outer gods. Regardless, thus far this feels very much like a "works cited" video 20 minutes in. Sorry you're bummed out, I just think it's neat that someone is actually doing some rigorous examination of a game outside a sophomore english class😂

[@davidlejenkins]

@@IndieGinge First off I appreciate the well thought out critique, it was genuinely a pleasure to read and I felt no hate, just honest discourse. I can also appreciate that this channel has transitioned into a different niche (because they DO have a grasp of literary concepts) , and there's like 100^2 different channels that have dissected the surface lore of this game to death. I also understand that there were several authors of this game that drew inspiration from several dozen real world sources and there is a very real connection between RL "inspiration" and actual game lore. I still retain my status of "bummed out" because I hold this channel to a standard that no other channel achieves (probably that's my own fault) in that I expect not only top caliber lore but also nostalgic video game OST's. I also expect cannon lore discoveries and hard-hitting deep lore connections to things, which they (this video being the exception) have delivered in spades. I love Hawkshaw and I will never not watch any video they post, but this is the weakest one (in my opinion) they have posted to date. I even loved their troll videos. I just feel they could do better and hold them to a higher standard than other KZbinrs because of and their previous content that was structured better and had spaced speculative reveals with cannon lore heavy backings in-between. I look forward to your response. ^_^

[@IndieGinge]

@@davidlejenkins I guess I get that. Frankly I think you COULD argue that Hawkshaw is a little hamstrung by their growing popularity and the incentive structure of social media, namely to produce content. They have a patreon now, yes? And are allowing sponsored ads. While I think this kind of work is incredibly fun, and I think the choice of a deep dive on ancestral followers is fantastic for who they are and their talents, I am concerned if they keep going it will dilute their message a little. However, I'm not sure that this has happened yet, and while the incentives of the market certainly will push them to create more videos no matter the quality, I hope that they remain a little aloof, and keep their day jobs in the kindest way possible. Being a creator of internet content in the model of social media will push them to lower their standards. I think part of the problem still lies in what I mentioned above, and that they touched on by video's end. Dark Souls was such an opaque story, but it was so deep and personal, and so populated with characters for its size compared to Elden Ring, which for all its size feels comparatively empty. There are secrets and truths hiding in plain sight, like the corpse of Siegmeyer's wife, but so, so much of the game feels like it is utterly inaccessible to the player. What is the dark moon and Ranni's 2 fingers for example? What led to the finger schism between 3 and 2? How do we even begin to learn? It's rather tantalizing how we can get close to an answer but can't seem to touch one. I've also found it notable that they have not yet gotten into the official artbook (in my memory) when it was such a part of their DS analysis. Hopefully that comes in the future. For the music? I suppose it's a matter of taste, can't begrudge you there. I like the use of tracks from Hades and Hollow Knight, but I don't play a lot of games anymore, and it's a bit more white noise to me. Regardless, it's nbd. I think they've still got the sauce, they're just not working with as rich a meal right now. Regardless, always glad to discuss with another fan. No shame in being critical, actually it's probably good!

[@davidlejenkins]

​@@IndieGinge ​ When it comes down to it I would rather have mediocre Hawkshaw content than none at all, or a one or two year gap between videos like in the dark times >.< . I also can appreciate how the structure of Elden Ring kinda, maybe requires some level of speculation because the lore is less...solidified? Blame R.R.Martin for that I guess? (I still feel like giving like 10 real world examples of what the lore MIGHT be hinting at is grasping at straws at best though) Hawkshaw has still managed to make 4 or 5 fantastic videos so far on obscure Elden Ring topics that never even crossed my mind in the several playthroughs I did and were top notch. The structure of the videos was exciting-ish and there was very little speculation/filler/fluff and just quality juicy content. The exception was the color theory video which was like 70% speculation but I was so stoked to watch and did several times because it was nothing more or less than the title claimed. I'm assuming you have watched most of Hawkshaws content if you are this deep in our discourse. Didn't you get a little chill up your spine when you watched the Siegmeyer video and they gave that call to action at the end? Didn't you get a little inspired when they did the (admittedly 30% speculation) video on Solaire about pursing your dreams and not staying stuck where you're at your whole life? I don't know maybe I'm just being cynical but I stand by my OP and look forward with positive anticipation for more, higher caliber content from this channel that I know they can produce. I really enjoyed our conversations, I appreciate the time and detail you spent responding to my criticism.

[@IndieGinge]

@@davidlejenkins i forgot to check this out. My b. Yeah I did like those parts, I think From under Miyazaki's direction is probably the strongest contender for "games as art" I've seen. There's a lot more there than in basically any game, which usually hit you utterly over the head with ideas, or if they are more nuanced are also less actual games (Disco Elysium springs to mind, wonderful experience, objectively well written, much more a novel than a game). There's an incredible depth to their stories, and so much of the design interweaves with the thematic elements to inspire deep resonance in the player, and make stories that hit much harder than an equivalent that did not have such care taken to be both subtle and multi-layered. And I enjoyed the conversation as well. Peace.

[@HiHawx]

God, the Green Man traumatized me after a certain A24 film