Raptor 2 | Electric Skateboard Technology | Direct Drive VS Belt Drive

[@CLU7CH3R]

You were comparing belt drives to hub motors, they're not direct drives. There's a difference between direct drives and hub motors in which the motors are inside the wheels for hub and next to the wheels for direct drives.

[@SpaZzzzzz]

You didn't talk about durability at all. When the wheel is in the motor it gets all of the impact... How long will it last before the inner parts start to fail?

[@mr.e-toy6776]

I wanted to ask the same......is the PU buffering enough impact?

[@Arek_R.]

All impacts and shocks go thru bearings which are dirt cheap.

[@3lmo2004]

Does it matter if you have a 1 year warranty? I know from the Raptor 1 that if Jason is putting out a product its going to be quality product. If your worried, buy the $99 warranty upgrade for up to 2 years. At that point there be a new board Im guessing. I plan on selling my Raptor 1 when my Raptor 2 arrives (few month later) and using that to buy the 3rd gen board when it comes out, that maybe a different brand, who knows.

[@stonybrook421]

Noam Lin One year warranty.

[@bingobongo17]

Yep agreed, them neodymium magnets will come loose.

[@martinberanek460]

Belt motor is considered more torqui, because of pulley, it can make more rotations per one wheel rotations. I would like to see model which allows to outperform pulley.

[@TheIrishalf]

Is the sound up and down ? One second it so loud and next second very low ?

[@jimmythegent9190]

Warren Vance how is this question irreverent at all towards the video's message? I heard every word he said clearly regardless of involuntary volume control.

[@Arne.Bornheim]

yes, sounds like he's switching between two cameras and microphones

[@joinantonius2]

Thank you mate. Now I recognise you as the true leader in the Esk8 scene. So far I had erroneously thought it was Trampa. I'll be looking out for a Raptor 2 the instant I see the new ones sold out, when I figure the relationship between VESCX and vesc6 and when I'll have more control over the battery repair / charging (read: vruzend and cycle Satiator charger)

[@alessiodf]

Is there any problem with over heating with the hub motors compared to the normal system?

[@alessiodf]

Great video mate! Looking forward to seeing some on the road tests!

[@rocheuro]

i must agree with you but what with a chain drive for comparison and maybe you can also put motors outside on the back to increase their size.. but overall I must agree direct drive's are supposingly the future.

[@warlockboyburns]

You can put difference size rubbers for different gear ratios but it's 5 times more expensive than changing belt sizes. But hub motor boards tend to be £100 cheaper to begin with.

[@seanpain4]

Synchronous belt energy efficiency is pretty much always above 97% given that the belt is of good quality. Are the hub motors more efficient? Do you have any evidence to support this? Are they able to produce more power, more torque, and higher top speeds?

[@seanpain4]

Electric Skateboard Builder Do you have proper tests to back that up? Not simulations

[@JesseHMR]

they sure do now ;)

[@gnorwaym9975]

How do you get rid of heat. I have made a model like this. Problem with this, is expensive to produce durable against vibration, heat resistant in "closed up" solution. Bearings will also heat up. The most costly part about it is to enter the market after testing and development with a well functioning product.... and 4 weeks later the Chinese copycats will sell for 1/5 of the price with 1/3 of the quality witch will work for most people in the short run. I made a electric motor and got 100% more torque with the same amount mAh used. So much still not on the market yet. Biggest problem is that many people who try to develop new things for commercial sale/use find that many things are already patented. Good luck with this project looking forward too see. I

[@stonybrook421]

Man Jason. ..you have a lot of patience, more than I.I bought one today . I wish people would go to your youtube videos and your websites ,instead of harrassing you.Looking forward to tearing ass all over SanFran..yeah hoo...!

[@pibblesnbits]

Sorry, but as far as mechanical limitations go, hub motors will always have less low end torque than a belt driven system. Hence why they need more watts. These increased watts in a compact space results in higher heat and increased failure rates. What do you do when a hub motor fails or when you need new wheels? Do you have to buy a whole new motor./wheel assembly? Sounds like a great way for retailers and manufacturers to make good money off of replacement parts.

[@darkkevind]

What about a 6mm chain drive? No need for width expansion, durable etc.

[@leonautic1979]

still loss of power when transferring power from motor to wheel to ground where the direct drive is straight to ground just my opinion though

[@JRPW]

I really like the carvon v3 cause it includes full wheels. Will be picking one up when they are released.

[@rickyscott6830]

would the axle or spindle be ruined if you jumb the board with a direct drive? I mean it would take all the shock...

[@incuf]

Hi Jason! Although I could undestand every word you said, volume change is a shame. You do really good image quality videos. Drop me a line and I can check what is it that you're doing wrong. My first guess would be you are individually auto adjusting gain on each clip in your timeline . You might want to try to apply nest and apply it to all the video. Or using a compressor. Let me know! Love your work!

[@herranton]

I wonder if you could put the motor longitudinally under the deck and connect it via a drive shaft with a differential in the truck? If you were to mold the motor into the deck, you could use a considerably larger motor. You could use a carbon fiber drive shaft to reduce power losses, and you wouldn't have the same torque issues that you have with the belts. The horizontally opposed motors will always be limited size wise, whether in the hub or belt drive. A longitudinal motor would only be limited by ride height. And if you are making your own carbon fiber boards, there is no reason you couldn't mold a small hump in the middle of lthe board. You could get a ridiculous size motor in there and not lose any torque due to wheel size either. Of course for lower power boards this would be complete overkill.

[@airgunningyup]

was thinking the same with the diff idea.

[@marsbase3729]

herranton1979 i was thinking that too as a potential solution, but i also think the differential adds another potential point of failure in the system.

[@nickvledder]

Very nice and thorough comparison. I also think hubmotors are the future and built some rc vehicles using outrunners in the tyre. It rocks!

[@MrFreezook]

If Hub motors are that good i hope they start making them for the normal offroad mountain boar wheels . Can it be done ? does it exists anyway ?

[@jonassvensson1819]

Absolutely crystal clear and understandable! When you make a shorter cruiser board I will buy it. Thank you for the video and explanation.

[@RandomZeugs]

I'm really excited for this board. I wish it had a swappable battery like the M1 but then again if the actual range is anything close to the promised, the Raptor 2 will have one of the best ranges I've seen on a board.

[@RandomZeugs]

Electric Skateboard Builder When an engineer and a consumer try to talk to each other ;-D. I meant swappable battery in the sense that when you are out with your board you can have a spare battery in your backpack and just easily swap them out and keep on going.

[@martinezrx71]

can build this board the same way . you can built the older model . and if i can build the raptor 2 is it less expensive then the evolv and boosted boards . i'am on a budget . thnks in advance

[@UnH1ng3d]

why doesn't anyone use a chain? Isn't a chains only disadvantage noise?

[@rideordie2318]

can I test you're products I currently have a boosted board and I have about 2500 miles and the only thing that I had a problem was belt ware. I would love to see how reliable your is in the real world of NYC

[@wingmangt]

It sounds good, but as seen from other hub motor designs , the drive wheels wear out quite fast and chip easy (probably cause the rubber is way too thin). Replacement are also quite difficult to source.

[@burakeren]

The bottleneck for hub motors are the size. They need to produce a lot more torque in slower speeds than transmission based system since you cant convert the speed to torque. And the max amount of poles you can put into them is limited by size which is limited by wheel size. But i dont have any electric board and nothing to compare them to. Also i still want this board.

[@BigfootRunning]

Baja boards use belts... they have insane acceleration going by their videos (I’ve never tried one but considering a purchase). I have a Wowgo2s with hub motors (non replaceable PU version) and I’m still attracted to the boosted stealth which continues to use belts. The fact that you can change wheels easily is very attractive to me. I’d love to give a Raptor 2 a go though and have heard they are very impressive... will be interesting to see where things head in the next 5 years or so. Stealth is definitely important with our current situation in Australia. Attracting the wrong attention... Great video 👍

[@AmanKhan-sq5hx]

One thing more which is no brainer that is More torque means more current more current means more copper loss and that leads to heat which will eventually fuck motors life unless u have some Breakthrough cooling technique. And for all the consumers out there it's a pretty cheap and dirty way to make consumers buy products frequently and quickly and by the way u have to buy the specific controller which can only be used for a specific motor. And one thing more belts and pulleys may reduce torque(and why u need that much torque u r not going to moon anyway) but they increase revolutions that means for 1 revolution in Hub motor , belt motors can give 2

[@roveism]

Love this explanation and I'm totally 'onboard' with the tech, please make a Stealth Commuter board (smaller form factor, lighter) for people who have to travel day to day, a perfect compliment to trains and buses.

[@Jimbo78ify]

Kind of have a question. It's the math aspect of things. With different diameters of wheels won't the difference in size make a difference in acceleration. I think torque is important but it's acceleration your looking for. With changing mass and size of tires the acceleration is different. How does this play into the actual acceleration model of the product?

[@TaagR]

Why not chain drive? I am planning on making a rugged board with 4wd, that idea seems easy to fabricate. I have seen it on street boards as well. Hub motors seem questionable without the cushion of a tire. The all in one design is really cool, but maybe more tire/wheel options? Props for furthering future transport. Really cool stuff!

[@darkydawson]

This looks awesome, definitely the future. Will all terrain be possible with hub motors?

[@insanity54]

RIght on! Plus I think hub motors look much better.

[@T-Sav]

What about durability of the motors getting smashed apart from the ground? I know that the pully system will also get vibrations but surely these will be severely increased using hub motors? what if you hit a stone hard on the wheel ? could it dent the motor and break it?

[@richardjreynolds6166]

What about chain drive?

[@CzechSpiritHD]

Very interesting. Are there any disadvantages of the HUB motors? Like durability, the impossibility to switch to a harder/softer urethane wheels or even big AT wheels? Also what happens when the urethane on the wheel(motor) wears out? And how much kilowatts does the Raptor 2 have (peak and constant)? There's no doubt that HUB motors are the future, but I think they need some improvements.

[@ShravanKantharaja]

can you make a video on chain drive vs belt drive? or could you just explain it to me in the reply and which is better

[@Dongshinchoi]

What about the temperature rise? Wasn't it the innate problem for the direct drive?

[@AutoKeyblade]

If just the surface of the hub motor wheel wears out, is there a way to put on new layers? Or do we just simply just change the whole wheel along with the motor?

[@AutoKeyblade]

that's a plus, good to know

[@mostafax80]

what about the heat? even with the heatsinks ( which doesn't make much of a difference in other electrical components which I have dealt with )

[@barbourj22]

Those motor / torque specs mentioned need to have the exact motor stats posted. I can take a smaller brushless motor and easily get it to produce half the torque of another motor - even if both were direct drive. That means nothing unless you post the manufacturer max torque spec and the end torque at the wheel. - Then we can get a real efficiency rating Or, specify the output torque of each at a specific Amp draw which would give you efficiency

[@barbourj22]

What about cooling? There appears to be less convection on the wheel motors. Hows the heat buildup over the course of a ride? Heat is the biggest enemy of permanent magnet motors.

[@clarkbanse]

i got two 6355 190kv motors on my board and 16mm belt without increasing the truck width my trucks were 180mm

[@justinpatalsky1]

Can you change the tires on these?

[@Chris-st8tv]

so what is the estimated degree of hill the hubs can tackle as previous videos I have seen say hubs can't go up hills

[@monstercoatingsnyc]

Looking to order my Raptor 2 to add to my Raptor Fleet (Raptor 1 Dual, production run 1, early adopter) When will you have a comparison video like you did with the Boosted Board Dual + comparing the Raptor 1 to the Raptor 2 ???

[@pinetrax]

You could just use gears to get rid of the belt. Therefore you would maintain the "ratio" for better torque that you lose with a hub motor.

[@pinetrax]

Why are gears a bad idea? I totally agree that hub motors are the future, especially because they're sealed. But you're loosing quite a bit of torque since you cannot mechanically multiply your motors output torque like with a geared system (whether it uses a belt or not). So with gears it would be possible to get better performence with this "simpler to build/do" setup since it at least reduces friction introduced though the belt. It's just way more convinient to use hub motors, but since this tech isn't that good at this point and (as you said) kind of in early stages compared to the more traditional way, there is still a way to improve and totally not "impossible" without hub motors. But it's still smarter to improve on hub motors as soon as possible (and they can totally do enough)

what about the chain?

[@evankeane1]

will this be stopped at all airports around the world or is it only America?

[@spaltmass]

What happens once my wheels are used up? Do i have to buy new hub motors + wheels? How Do these motors not get destroyed by the raw impacts of the streets?

[@freshbranches]

Why did you get rid of the Normal vesc?because I was going to save up for one but now I can't

[@freshbranches]

Electric Skateboard Builder ok but still some people still want the belt drive and I all ready bought all the parts for it.

[@filedotzip]

+Mining a Mystery enertion was a good company now they're tying people into these new systems and being ignorant, look at DIY electric longboard shop, they sell old fashioned vesc's and mounts, good luck my man :) P.s. Enertion stop the bs, not everyone wants more power.

[@BallisticTech]

Buy something else...

[@tonyhan954]

im considering on getting a e board, but i live on a hill, which system is better on hills?

[@willybilly99]

Carvon exo it is. Hub motor with any abec flywheel style insert... what do you have to say about this? is the patent copyrighted?

[@howtomakemoneywithyourelec2190]

Nice one mate. I've been using an evolve all terrain single belt drive. The AT is perfect for the rough roads in my city. How would direct drive wheels compare on rough roads and footpaths ?

[@thewelshdragon1567]

I just question how much more speed and power you really need before these boards become seriously dangerous, I own an evolve bamboo gt and the power in that is easily enough to scare me at high speeds.

[@JoeKyser]

well Jason I follow you very closely all of your videos I'm very impressed with your knowledge I'm always mentioning you to other people because my channel is geared around electric skateboards as well so I have my very own link anytime I feel like someone might be looking for something like what you have there I definitely share it with them I thought it was pretty neat how I got an email with an update let me know how many times somebody looked at my link I like that maybe somebody I'll go and make a purchase I gotta get one of these for my channel without a doubt thank you very much for breaking it down I don't think there's anybody else in this whole entire world that could break it down better than you I know you've been doing your research and I know I depend on you as well as a lot of other people to get their facts straight

[@jasonwiltjer9]

No you don’t need to replace the belts, but with all that impact on the motors, you will need to spend hundreds of dollars on replacing the, after a year. Speaking from first had experience with the inboard m1.

[@KelanProductions]

Is there an easy way to DIY this because I'm not too sure how the motor is supposed to fit into the wheel

[@strix9862]

fuck yes I love the way this looks.

[@charleslittle458]

Love the internal motor in the wheels however I just want to point out that you're trying to tell me that there are zero losses in a planetary gear system? That's like overunity.

[@sometingwongwai9679]

try using a chain and sprocket. im sure the motogp bikes don't have any torque transfer issues.

[@MrScooterland]

so you are saying weather sealed. I live where it rains all the time. Will I be ok? will I have to worry every time i go out on wet streets.

[@hafizx1018]

But you cant change the wheels to better wheels like shark wheels if you xan somehow design it to fit shark wheeks ir sonething that would be awesome!!! 👍 👍

[@henriquesoares759]

the thing about hub motors is you get less torke

[@amateurwizard7002]

I'm so glad the belts are gone replacing them every other week is a trek. But I get the feeling this will be expensive

[@TheSengga]

Great and I basically just got my raptor 1

[@gilfoyle46]

are there any amendments in the remote too or like an app to monitor the battery status and kilometers?

[@gilfoyle46]

Electric Skateboard Builder true that..!... performance first...great job!

[@MrAnonymus23]

Would like o state for the record that I'm a fan of the kits provided by you guys cause it gives choice and idea to build unique setups as opposed to other sellers just don't agree with this message.

[@integra8502]

Why did we often hear on the forum that Hub Motors had Less Torque than a Belt System??

[@integra8502]

thanks for answering Jason

[@esk8spirit362]

belt system on a 80 pound electric offroad board... yes... but the motor is twice the size of the wheel motor... Just hoping they have been tested enough to know they don't fall apart since the motor is in the wheel.

[@TimFelbinger]

Will you ever be selling just the new custom trucks with hub motors for those of us who have already built DIY boards???

[@tylernewcomb1431]

How are you going to address the actual tire or rubber part on the rear of the skateboard? Are people just going to have to buy a whole new motor to get replacements?

[@tylernewcomb1431]

great thanks

[@gteam2]

7:07 I solved that problem in a way that i've never seen anyone do it. I get unlimited clearance motor to ground, unlimited motor size and get to keep the gear reduction/torque multiplication. I can go to a much smaller wheel (looking to move to a 72mm wheel soon) and not worry about any clearances. I'm not concerned with my motors hitting the ground or touching the deck. my motors are not on a super long mount hanging beyond the deck to clear kicktails and forgo ascociated belt slop. I even run my trucks Dropped through. [I prefer my longboard to be as low as possible] size = power, hubs will therefore never be able to get as low/powerful as my implementation, because physically bigger hub motors inherently raise the height of the board overall. 9:08 mine is definitely not super stealth - exactly the opposite actually. details here: www.electric-skateboard.builders/t/ellf-long-low-flexy-loaded-dervish-or-tan-tien-caliber-10-inch-dual-drive-mounting-method-10s1p-dual-focbox/40006

[@seanpain4]

When you have a larger drive pulley, the torque increases because of the larger radius of the pulley, as T = Fr. Not because it simply engages with more teeth. Just having more belt engaged to the teeth of the pulley doesn't necessarily mean more torque.

[@seanpain4]

Electric Skateboard Builder Yes, the teeth are there to prevent slippage. Because the teath are there, the belt provides almost 100% efficiency in transferring energy. The teeth on the belt are moving at the same rate as the teeth on the pulley. The belt itself is not your bottle neck

[@seanpain4]

Electric Skateboard Builder That's funny. I will state this again. The belt itself does not bottle neck the power transfer. The belt has almost 100% efficiency in transferring energy. If you have two motors the exact same, one inside a wheel and the other belt driving a wheel and you dyno'd both, the results would be so close that it would be within the margin of error

[@LightGrime]

Sean Pain , not if the belt it slips under load and given the packaging constraints in this application prohibit an increase in belt width or pulley diameter the belt can be viewed as a bottle neck. I do have my doubts about the hub system due to vibration, impact load and poor heat dissipation that will probably impact on the durability.

[@benjaminblomqvist87]

it is the future

[@cesarhstn]

I can't wait!

[@sanderklewais5769]

why did i get a winning controller instead of an enertion? if i shake it i hear the inside shaking

[@LukeTesta]

Sander Klewais be careful with the winning remote, there have been some safety issues with it.

[@MrFreezook]

Hub Motor are obviously great ! Yes ! but unfortunately this sk8board still doesn't match the Great off road wheels. I hope one day it will eventually be done.

[@alexeyshtengelov6086]

What about 4x4 wheel drive

[@frankwu5000]

That make me to start to think of the way of transport of a roller coaster. they're still using chains. Similarly, I think the durability, cost, and wether it is easy to be fixed is still the restraint with current technology and it is unavoidable.

[@hockingham7160]

Your system is great, one question though, will you be selling the parts separately for repairs or will the board have to be sent to a dealer?

[@joseph_gable825]

check out the raptor q and a i think it may answer ur question

[@jimmythegent9190]

hockingham as of now he stated NO.

[@Mrcovert]

hockingham if you order make sure you pay by PayPal. Ever shifting delivery dates with his products. PayPal rules keep him in check and protect you.

[@daviddemarta1188]

hockingham So when he says it's super easy to replace a motor he really means send it to us and then it's easier for us to fix.

[@chrisneru6564]

i still prefer belt drive. gear ratio can be changed either for speed or tourke. im about jst having fun riding on a E Board. My Carbon GT gives me all dat. Speed or Tourke doesnt really matter to me its more reliability in the product and customer support.

[@boyzone5000]

Whats the slope percentage?

[@peterryseck]

Why doesn't anyone use gears instead of belts??? You can transfer all the power you want through a gear system, have gear ratios, and have proper motor cooling, rather than directdrive

[@jeremyneworleans]

what happened to the sound changing all the time ?

[@TrungLe-dw1mm]

how do you change the outside layer of the wheels !

[@adhamelsharkawy4601]

Are you buying this hub motors

[@odlanorirom]

...direct drive is a little bit expensive compared to belt drive, am i right?

[@asadawson3568]

sooooooooo I'm guessing you can only use your trucks with the hub wheels

[@schoolshooter6435]

Asa Dawson yeah, he did say that in a previous video, but they are top quality trucks. You buy the raptor 2 you can take the battery and trucks of and you can chuck it on any deck that'll fit it

[@jamesluckow3002]

But yet every test I have seen of a belt drive motor compared to a hub motor the belt drive has more torque takes off faster explain that in the real world testing the belt drive motor still outperforms any help motor that I have seen put against it

[@henriquesoares759]

I know this because I have a rc car and with gears you could change the speed or torke

[@kwa_nguyen]

would you be able to ride this on a 30-40 degree hot day in aussie summer?

[@RiveraTrading]

Electric Skateboard Builder This could have another simple solution, replacing the belt-drive with a gear drive. 😀

[@Antonp21654]

you will still have rolling resistance, but you lose torque limiting. Along with gaining rotational mass, similar to a two speed tranny on a rc car

[@tonyp3391]

I just disagree with alot of this, more torque on belt, you can change the gearing on the motor and the wheel, and the tire size and composition can all be changed easily on belt drive, giving you an unlimited way to change torque, top speed braking all sorts of parameters that you just CANT do on Hub motors. I started esk8ing on an actual DIRECT DRIVE and went to belt drive shortly after. Oh also huge difference is pneumatic can be used on belt and not hub. And that is a game changer for off road. I just don't get that you think hub is 2 times the torque??? What do you think torque is? ??

[@rscarawa]

I think this is an interesting technology in the fact that it eliminates parts and theoretically it should make the whole board more efficient and less problem prone. That said it is a concern that the electric motor is sealed up inside that rim or inside the wheel. So how is this motor going to radiate its heat outward? How will this motor not lose magnets due to the excessive vibration that comes with direct contact with the street? What kind of serviceability would this motor have? I found a lot of the video very informative but when he said that the bottlenecks were removed that's kind of a bit of a red flag because you cannot remove bottlenecks. That is more of a b******* marketing statement. No matter what system you have the best you can do is move the bottleneck around to a place where you can tolerate it most, not eliminate it.

[@rscarawa]

I get that. The belt is gone. Then the bottle neck moves to another part. Bottlenecks are never gone.

[@truthseekercanada]

The new Tesla/Panasonic 2170 will solve the battery bottleneck for boards...i cant see anyone needing more energy density than that on an eskate.

[@Dalgobitches]

Why don't you guys use SENSORED MOTORS?! To me, that would seem like the "end-all-be-all" when it comes to torque as well as reliability. Btw, I'm just curious. I'm in no way trying to act like I know any better than anyone in our community. But, from my own experience, using sensored motors was definitely the way to go. So much more torque and no need for a rolling start.

[@Dalgobitches]

Electric Skateboard Builder EXCELLENT!!! Sorry about that, I saw the leads hanging from the motors and just kind of figured they were sensor-less. But with the addition of sensored motors in these hub-driven boards, I don't think there is any possible was to improve upon the drivetrain design! Great job guy!!!

[@roxxie3843]

Acton Skateboard have been do this with the new Blink S,S2. and QU4TO.

[@chialor1945]

*If belt motors are cheap, why hasn't price been down to $200 yet? LOL*

[@KILL3ROO]

i have a limited amount of money. you think you can help a brother out and lrt me buy one for 675?? please!!!

[@rojitorroj9584]

K1LL3ROO get real. he loses money if he agrees that price. You are also forgetting about the shippings fee and custom duty if you live outside Australia. work a little and save more Cash. regards bro

[@taitywaity1836]

Why is no one selling a hub motor set of wheels (with one or two motors and the others just normal). There's no way for someone to diy a hub motor wheel

[@KangarooPvP]

Yo, I was about to buy a couple belts but the shipping is 50 dollars? Is the Warehouse located in America?

[@KangarooPvP]

Please choose the shipping method for your order: Provider Logo UPS Express Saver® $52.39 Provider Logo UPS Express® $55.50

[@KangarooPvP]

but why does it cost 52$ to ship? I live in Melbourne