ELESTRALS' BIGGEST BANLIST YET! (and what it means for the format)

[@crappyusername69]

I dont play elestrals, mbt is my only exposure, but 1. Draw 50 is clearly not a card you can leave in the game. 2. I watched multiple 20 spirit testings where mbt had earth spirits for no other reasons than to run 3 earthquake 3. Every deck discussion and game mbt did came with a "I need to consider lavalith" step before he would consider a card or play. Which sounds like a meta shaping card. These sound less like specific deck hits, and more like hits to game mechanics the designers considered unhealthy. I think his Yugioh history is showing through, where he considers Elestral decks as specific archetypes and the cards in them can only be hit as a response to weakening it's archetype.

[@therealHLY]

I mean, yeah, everyone was running 3 earthquake, because its the only proactive removal in the game, and it was in a lot of games your only check to your opponent getting ahead. I disagree with aDrive/the general elestral's testing team saying the game has too much removal; it had one piece, so everyone played it. like even taking this from an mtg pov, if there was only one removal card legal in the format, everyone is splashing mana of that colour and max copies of that card. because removal is just central to tcgs. losing because my opponent went first and summoned a big guy and having no answer to it just isn't fun

[@crappyusername69]

@therealHLY Mtg is a bad example. Tons of decks don't play any hard removal at all. Most sets only print hard removal in a couple of colors, and it's never indicated which colors would be strong. This is more like a Maxx c situation. Of course you'll run it! It's the only way to curb these crazy combo decks setting up 10 negate boards! Ignoring that it's also always another piece to those 10 negate boards. Elestrals should learn from other tcg mistakes and not let their game get to a state where cards have to be auto included because stopping your opponent from playing is the only way to win.

[@therealHLY]

@@crappyusername69 calling EQ a maxx c is completly off base; maxx c wins the game if it resolves every time. EQ allows you to anwer threats if you went second. your saying there's always another way to answer them, but in this case there isn't - EQ was the only card filling that niche. it was never a case of 'huzzah I'll splash 4 earth for my EQs I love this card'. it was always a case of 'well I need removal in this game or else whoever sets up first wins and losing because you lost the coinflip sucks, guess I HAVE to put 3 eq and a bunch of terratlas in my deck'. in that area you can compare it to maxx c, yes, in that you have to play it to be competitive, but the issue is the opposite. maxx c is a card that *makes* its own problem and you have to do other things to deal with the the problem that is maxx c. EQ was the only proactive answer to a big reocurring problem everyone faces in this game. that said, I maintain my comment about mtg. there's an important word you used there - HARD removal. hard removal isn't all removal. a card doesn't need to read destroy/exile to be removal. every deck runs removal, and every colour gets removal still. sure, black/white get the monopoly on cards that just outright kill something, but blue gets bounce effects and aura's that make them unable to attack/block/use abilities that effectively remove them etc every set, red has targeted burn and green has fight and bite effects. these are all still integral to those decks, and except in all out vintage/legacy combo decks, they feature in every successful list. mtg design knows removal is important, this is why fight effects became evergreen for green elestrals really doesn't have an equivelant to that, there's no real alternate removal options in other elements that aren't also a massive hit to tempo and resources compared to EQ, in a game were tempo is everything and a problem deck was already the deck that just summoned one big guy and flexed that and just bullied out decks that needed settup unless they had EQ in hand or poison tipped arrow already on field - and now the response is sack into the 1 copy of eq or have won the coin toss. it's not having to settle for a weaker option, it's not usng your bolt as removal rather than to burn, or bouncing it then sniping it with a counter spell next turn because we do not have those alternatives in elestrals, and since elestrals resources are limited and don't retun every turn, needing to spend oyur normal and 3-4 spirits to answer one guy is just bankrupting yourself on resource and tempo. it was EQ or bust, or make the big boss cards that functionally already won the game like chronodile or lustragon. the big bosses that you can't make if your getting beat down by someone already bigger than you because you get one summon a turn and ascending requires 2-3 turns without you losing your field.

[@crappyusername69]

@therealHLY Elestrals also can't setup completely unbreakable 10 negate boards. Saying Maxx c isn't comparable is ignoring that end boards in both games aren't comparable. If a single big monster is unstoppable in elestrals without 1 specific card, there's a deeper game design problem than not having unrestricted hard removal. Otherwise you eventually run into the yugioh problem, where everything is either too strong to ever let your opponent play it, or too oppressive in not letting your opponent. So either way, 1 person doesn't get to play. Taking out instant "stop your turn" cards is likely to be healthier long term, as long as you don't print easily accessible "must be stopped" cards.

[@doki531]

I think if the biggest complaint we have about the banlist is “now people will actually maybe play big 3 mana guys rather than everyone running only 1 mana guys”, then I’d say the banlist is working. Yugioh historically never managed to find a home for big 2 tribute summon guys even if they had decent effects, the only way they ever saw play was through special summoning effects (e.g. BLS)

[@U1TR4F0RCE]

I think the main issue was how slow in real time the ftk was and how easy it was to get the hand for it and how long it takes to be able to say definitively that the opponent will lose in 10 more minutes

[@relloz6]

I think attributing the hits to removal to nerfing 5s/stall feels weird, when the more true, if not more likely, argument is “we would like ascensions to not suck ass to play in comp given they are our game’s core mechanic”, especially since they left cryo at 3

[@KuroeNezumi]

it's funny because in the announcement they repeatedly say "we want our players to use all of the mechanics that make elestrals unique" or something to that effect. and by repeatedly I mean like two or three times, all while mentioning ascension and nexus each time.

[@PoeticMachineDreams]

As a new player, watching my stage 3s in a few different decks die within 1 turn of summon was pretty sickening. I would like to see something like Pharogheist see play now

[@lost_pantheon]

​@@KuroeNezumiYeah, they keep mentioning their "unique" mechanics like Nexus and Ascension. When, if we're being honest here, Nexusing as a mechanic is not universal across all decks, while Ascension is just a modified Tribute Summon.

[@clayxros576]

​@lost_pantheon The application of the mechanics is unique. Nexus is both an effect activation, a way to boost into 3 drop Eleatrals, and potentially more life damage on board. Ascend is similarly different, inherently leading to more life damage. And them wanting all mechanics to be used doesn't mean in the same deck. They just mean each mechanic shoukd have a decent home in its own deck. Tribute, Flip, and largely Ritual are worthless in Yugioh fir example, requiring parasitic dependence on other mechanics to even be playable.

[@rajkanishu]

As many other people said it's clear these hits are focusing more on unhealthy play patterns and strategies rather than hitting decks that are good, doesn't matter if the FTK didn't get results and players could've adapted to it, its existence doesn't bring anything good to the game and keeping it around just makes events worse, no reason not to ban the clearly degenerate enabler. Agree on the limits creating the "lol I drew the 1 of" feelsbad moment but it's definitely a million times better in a game like this that doesn't last exactly one turn per player. About people wasting money on the additional copies idk I'd rather have a healthy and fun game balanced around good gameplay rather than around people's wallets

[@clayxros576]

Agreed. Joe clowns on MTG player brainrot with cards being investments first, but he's got some Yugioh brainrot in the form of "If you can out it, it's fine".

[@EagletheDuck]

Are the limited cards even that powerful to where finding the 1-of feels bad to play against? I haven’t played enough competitive recently to answer that question for myself so the inference I made was that only having to ever deal with one of the limited cards per game in theory stops blocking out divine and stadium centric strategies

[@lucaslennan3356]

I love that they put their foot down and said "Nope, no ftks. Not going anywhere near that." The rest of the hits may not have needed to happened immediately and it definitely feels like a "Well I guess since we're putting out a list update now anyways we can put out those other changes we were planning." Which on one hand means we get some hits earlier in a format than people would have liked, but on the other hand if we hadn't gotten them now we would have had either no list for a while and maybe played a garbage format longer than we should've, or been in a situation where we get in a cycle of small lists happening every 2 months unable to catch up to meta shifts caused by the small lists being too timid in their approach. Overall great list that took care of a lot of early game generics that were overtuned compared to the rest of the cardpool. Feels like those Goat era lists that were limiting things like Book of Moon and D.D. Warrior Lady. Cards that were crazy and in everything even if they were just removal and kept a lot of powerful cards in check.

[@hellohellopleasehelp]

This banlist has had more hits than any other 😮

[@benjacobsen9251]

I was definitely feeling that lavalith and eq and laurels altogether made it really difficult to land anything other than really efficient 1 drops. Without seeing these cards as often, I feel like we'll be able to play some different strategies involving higher cost elestrals and a divine or stadium

[@prime3389]

I really just hope that, assuming banlists become a norm, dates are announced ahead of time. lets not fall into the yugioh trap

[@Elestrals]

Will definitely take this feedback into account! My goal is never to surprise people and cause frustration. -aDrive

[@imwhatthekidscallcringy3858]

I think the list is pretty cool in concept. Though I am a towers/Phaorogeist truther

[@iamabucket13]

I disagree on how this list impacts Fives. Lavalith and Resting don't just hurt Divine/Stadium/Ascension strategies the most, but are incredibly spirit efficient (Resting costs 1 generic, and Lavalith is also a big guy). Add in EQ, which is unconditional removal that benefits a ton from spirit efficiency, and you get the core of Fives: Spirit efficient Elestrals that allow you to play generic removal easier which lets you stick more of those Elestrals to the board, then repeat until you overwhelm the opponent. The limits all require you to play more situational and specific removal (which includes combat), and how much better is that than playing gameplan decks? If you're already playing Edward and Rock, then why not play Kurabyss? If you're not as spirit efficient, why not make up the lost spirits with Heal Stall, or make your opponent less efficient with burn? I do agree that the limits are a slap on the wrist for Heal Stall, but I also just think that it has a strong matchup against Fives. I also think the Lavalith and EQ limit are meant to determine how much players are willing to tech in specific spirits for a one-of. They're easier includes if you're already playing that type. One of, if not the most expensive staple in the game getting limited kinda sucks tho, Lavalith should've been in Shattered Stars Fire and I'm glad they've remedied that with Specteris in the Lunar pack. Lastly, regarding the Waspyre FTK, I think the Drataya ban and subsequent killing of the deck has more to do with the really long turn and lack of turn 0 interaction. Plus I think it reveals that the Elestrals team is willing to make design philosophy-based decisions instead of just letting the "free market" decide what's too powerful and needs to be reeled in.

[@clayxros576]

Amd for those of us who are tired of the free market mindset, it's a breath of fresh air theyre at least trying.

[@EagletheDuck]

In general I agree that ban list should not be made in haste and my first impression was that this was too soon. However, I think these hits highlight issues that have been present in some form since base set making the list feel a little less hasty in practice. I follow the theory behind these hits and hope the resulting meta game shift leads to a lot of excitement and fun

[@moonlight2870]

It's super funny watching this knowing 9 stuff about elastrals. I didn't even know the game existed. It sounds like you're making these words up.

[@jasonsumma1530]

Hey MBT, do you remember a video produced back in the early days of KS\base set where the players only had one copy of each counter\invoke rune? I don't remember who made it but I thought it was one of the better videos at the time because it showed how powerful the back row was with the base set. At that point, I wondered if having a one per deck with certain runes was the way to go. As for the current ban\limit, I can see aDrive returning to the limit side and adjusting in the future if certain decks get too powerful and need to be curtailed.

[@Nunu.Dolonia]

Personally while I do think that maybe Heal could have been left alone for a little longer purely due to the ability to deckbuild around it in both main and side, the FTK had to go ASAP regardless of it’s early results. It’s different in a game like Yu-Gi-Oh where you can use hand traps to maybe interrupt an opponent enough to prevent the FTK happening. In Elestrals, we don’t have that option. If someone is good enough at piloting the deck, then they WILL do the FTK and you do nothing about it. So if anything, I’m glad aDrive recognised that, even going as far as to include the skill in piloting the deck in his justification for hitting Drataya.

[@shiznaztm]

I just picked up my first starters the other week. After watching a ton of Elestrals clashes and videos, I can understand the Laurels/EQ hits. The game from a viewer standpoint was just… who ran out of 1 for 1s first. Whoever did, lost the game. I think the point of Elestrals is to have this choice of investing into a massive threatening body, or playing low to the ground, and the low to the ground strategy was just stifling the other. FTKs are a no go, but the heal deck is something that probably could have been experimented with more. I really do think this game can pop off once it finally gets reasonably distributed and appears on TCGPlayer as well, it’s really fun, but for now I’ll stick to pack opening addiction haha.

[@luckybusinesssuit]

As someone who plays yugioh, I don’t know whether I should play this or not, if the digital way of playing is as good as master duel I probably will, but if not then idk how long elestrals will last

[@the_skywalker644]

My sonicore stoks just went through the roof

[@withanh9137]

Hit ‘em hard, hit ‘em fast, no point in keeping an ftk around or stall to promote uninteractive gameplay

[@PepperTCG]

So many interesting 2 cost and 3 cost Elestrals will be able to shine now without being instantly outed. Lavalith warping 2 cards types (stadiums and divines) out of the meta was too much. Stadiums can help non fives compete with fives and Divines facilitate a decks most basic gameplan. You shouldn’t be punished for doing the bare minimum.

[@JakeFrost-e6w]

I still am not sure how I feel on EQ's limiting. I think card games are at their healthiest when decks can actually answer threats. I think two spirits for an elestral removal is fine, but if ADrive doesn't think that, then why don't we get an invoke speed PTA where you just pay one and then pay the elestral's cost so outing a big guy hurts more? I think we need something to replace the invoke speed removal we lost to keep threats manageable

[@DeltaZapdos]

There’s always Boombatt which has a lower floor but higher ceiling than EQ. It only costs 1 thunder but takes up your normal cast. This gives your opponent the opportunity to respond to the removal of their Elestral before you can press the advantage gained by removing it. Also, unlike EQ, both Dense Fog and Gorgon’s Gaze shut it down. However, it’s reusable if it manages to stick around for multiple turns. If that isn’t to your liking, then there’s also Cryoblast, Eddy, and Soarlet which can take out most Fives or similarly skewed stat lines.

[@polaroid1789]

elestrals out here proving their balancing is better than god's. earthquakes should've been limited a long time ago irl, but elestrals only took a few months!

[@AljoschaW1993]

When we get a Simulator then i will try the game, iam from Germany is difficult to acces and nobody plays it here i think

[@ArceusShaymin]

I think it's preferable to have slightly more proactive bans than it is to let the "free market of deckbuilding" try and duke it out. We've seen what happens when the teams at WotC try to rest on *their* laurels to ban fairly obvious problematic cards (lookin' at you, Nadu and Hogaak). Elestrals I don't think is far enough where we're trying to hit entire decks yet - we're just trying to take cards that have frustrating gameplay patterns (Lavalith and DRAW 50) or unhealthy ubiquity (Earthquake) and nipping them in the bud NOW before people have time to get really attached to them when they DO become even bigger problems. Ascending Elestrals seemed dubious as a strategy when literally every deck can just effectively pay 2 life to remove it whenever they wanted. It was the age-old "three for one" problem. At least in MtG you had to have the mana held up to do it, and there's interaction you could have against it most of the time. In Elestrals it was pretty much "Make Big Guy?" "Earthquake it." and unless it was like... exactly Leonite in Attack Position it was gone. There's no real "playing around it"; they either had it or they didn't. Not to mention Earthquake only took up 6 of your Spirit slots in nearly every deck. NOT running it was dubious as hell. Any card that's an auto-include in every deck of the format probably shouldn't be there, especially if it's so easy to push other things that you could play out. This also allows them to print removal that's more nuanced and not have everyone just run Earthquake anyways because it's just better.

[@EddricVanguard]

Choice Restriction is ok

[@remx73]

BIGGEST BANLIST EVER

[@hugofernandez1527]

Good video

[@mbressette]

So elestrals has multiple cards with the same name?

[@PoeticMachineDreams]

Yeah, there's a subtitle on a lot of cards to act as a second name. So you can max copies of each.

[@OrmylLP]

Sub Names, lots of game do this nowadays. Its functionally the same card for specific searching etc but is still a separate card.

[@UshiromiyaGohda]

To be fair yugioh has this as well, look at harpy lady. Except in yugioh they count as the same card even when deck building so you can only run 3 copies between all of them.

[@tame1773]

Dont like the EQ hit, maybe just make good runes for 2-3 spirit guys

[@clairbeeguitar]

This ban feels weird from a marketing standpoint. Or like design and marketing are at odds. If it's a game for yugioh expats, wouldn't having busted stuff be appealing? If it's a youtuber merch baby game then they shouldn't be designing like this anyway? Granted it seems like the financial investment is fairly low but we're about a year in and there's already 4 cards on the list - design and/or players need more time to cook. It feels very playground metagame to shape the game this directely this early

[@theglitch5386]

There is another problem with this list that was touched on but I feel should receive more attention: Lavalith, formerly a relatively expensive card, is now no longer needed at 3 copies. Thus, anyone who dropped money on a playset is now out about 2/3 of that investment. One can argue that this downside is be mitigated by reselling the extra copies you don't need, but then for those who picked up 3 Drataya hoping to play Waspire FTK, even that solution won't work. I think this problem, plus the problem you brought up in the video about these bans happening "too fast," could be solved by having a consistent ban cycle. Especially since ADrive has such close ties to the YuGiOh community, who are almost in a state of perpetual outcry because of how Konami handles it's lists, it's a bit confusing that he hasn't put one out. If we knew there was a banlist that was going to be released, our expectations in terms of both purchases and playtesting would have been different. The people who put in the hours to engineer the FTK deck would have been mentally prepared to lose that effort. The people thinking about buying these decks would have known to wait a week or two before investing. This time, I was not personally affected by either case, but it makes me hesitant to invest time or money into this game knowing I may be in the future. The new simulator that's being released will give me a way to play this game which does not run into these issues, but I'm fairly certain the goal here is to make this game playable both online and in paper, and I would hate for the paper side of that to be diminished because of what I've mentioned.

[@lucaslennan3356]

Coming from the FGC a lot of tournaments were ruined because a scheduled patch came out right before it and nobody had time to lab the new meta or it buffed a chafacter that was didn't need it because they didn't have results. Consistent banlists sound good on paper but some formats don't need a list, and some REALLY need a list. While buying cards that get banned feels bad, it's better that some formats don't get played.

[@theglitch5386]

@@lucaslennan3356 To solve the first problem, release information about the list separately than the list itself. If people know what's going to be hit a sufficient time before it goes into effect, they are able to ajust. Figuring out what a "sufficient time" entails is a discussion I'll leave to pro players, but ADrive already did this (and I like the fact he did so), so I didn't mention it in my critique. As for the second, I believe the opposite statement is true: while playing certain formats feels bad, it's better that players know their investment in a format will be rewarded. It may be up to personal preference, but I think it's a defensible view. If you don't like the competitive format, you can take a break and play the game casually until the next list. If you get blindsided by a list, you are just out a certain amount of money and time, with no way to recover either.

[@theglitch5386]

@@lucaslennan3356 For the first problem, this can be solved by releasing information about a list before the list goes live. Unlike in fighting games, people can build decks using new regulations before those regulations come into effect, then test those decks with other people to get practice in the same conditions tournaments would be played in. ADrive did that with this list, and I give him credit for doing so. As for the second problem, I think the reverse is true: while playing some formats feels bad, it's better that players know their investment in a format will be rewarded. This may just be a personal preference, but I think it's defensible. If you don't like a particular competitive format, you can play the game casually until a new format rolls around. However, if you get blindsided by a banlist, you are just out a certain amount of money and time without a method of prevention or recouperation.

[@Noah-hz9cx]

If you see money spend on a cardgame as an investment, than thats your fault honestly. Yes, in a perfect world every deck would be balanced to perfection so nothing would ever have to get hit. With that beeing said, this is reality so for the games sake, you have to have a banlist. Its no other than your cards rotating out/ loosing your bike/ breaking your tennisrack. An unexpexted loss. You lost the money when you got the card. Not when it was banned.

[@YukiKazami]

Buying cards shouldn't ever be considered a financial investment, they're game pieces

[@__-be1gk]

2 views in 1 minute, what the hell happened...

[@mummra479]

Aw yay. A tcg that could’ve reset the precedent on banning-don’t do it and just print meta game shifters or let players figure out the counters. And here that all goes into the garbage. I hate banlists, dude.

[@therealHLY]

I very much dislike the EQ hit and I think it's the thing that just killed all my interest in the game. 5 bungus beatdown is boring as heck, and losing because your opponent went first and summoned a big guy and now the only reliable removal left is useless against them since it was a counter rune is just frustrating and sounds like a miserable play pattern, and now its even easier to sit and stall with the one big guy and a wall of backrow since rune removal is still entierly fake. like yeah wow I guess I have rock and a hard place, so my opponent can chose which card goes and its always the one I don't want for me spending resources and not actually changing the board. wow. fun

[@Elestrals]

Hey, sorry to hear your feeling dissatisfied. While I can't predict the future of the format, I do believe there are plenty of other tools in the game to help remove threats. I'll name a few: Sandstorm / Kindleo / Warmite / Vertaqua / Eddy / Boombatt / Race to the Top / Verutouca / Soarlet / Galaxair / Cryoblast / Arctaurus / Frosmite / Helialith . Thats not considering some of the destruction effects on cards like Chrysboar, Lustragon and more. I appreciate your feedback! -aDrive

[@therealHLY]

@@Elestrals kindlo requires me to already be set up and ahead and forces you into fire. race to the top is conditional and does nothing against an opponent sitting on one elestral. boombat is a terrble trade, costing my one summon for the turn to kill itself in an exchange that may reset parity but does not help against the strategy of 'just play another cheap big guy next turn' cryoblast and the mites are entierly situational, and in a lot of cases simply won't do anything. cryoblast is great when it works, but anything with 3 defence or higher is immune to it so it's not answering getting beat down like EQ does. edward and mudlet can put something into an unfavourable position but still lose to every counter rune in dealing with the problem your facing rock and a hard place is only good when you already have eddy. your opponent choosing means you spent 2 spirits - a full 1 10th of your total resources - to have your opponent lose their worst card. it's great if your running kurabyss. but again, that's very situational and bottlenecks your play options lustragon and other 2/3 spirit elestrals are very hard to set up when I'm on the recieving end of the beatdown becaue my opponent put down a big guy and I don't have any answers any more. it's very hard to ascend when your getting wiped every turn by the 5s like I will admit I am talking from a biased perpective, but what I can say is that everyone of my friends who also play just play 5s, and it's so boring to get beat down by vanilla's doing nothing, so killing removal to make them better than ever just makes the game really unappealing. if this was to encourage more 2/3 spirit elestral use, maybe make those better, rather than kill ways to deal with the overly efficient 1 spirits elestrals?

[@tsukamesuccess7332]

I was going to pick up Elestrals because I heard it had an FTK deck. Now I have no interest

[@quickestturtlez5362]

Solitaire is free nerd.

[@supergamerguy9224]

Ftks sound fun on paper, but it's just not fun in practice. Either you open the combo and win instantly, with your opponent having zero way to counterplay and you know, play the game, or you don't open the combo and, guess what, you don't have fun and don't play the combo. It's a super unfun gameplay loop that's very unhealthy for any card game

[@KuroeNezumi]

@@supergamerguy9224 as far as I know, the FTK didn't even have issues besides needing to go first. as soon as it does, or it goes uninterrupted, it is almost up to the memory and execution of the player doing it to not fuck it up and actually kill, as in, it might as well be inevitability on the hands of someone "skilled" enough at it. it was nearly perfectly consistent. so, y'know, comparable to the best (or worst, if you're at the other end) Yugioh FTKs.

[@SomniaCE]

Very weird to admit "I only wanna play this game if there isn't an actual game to play aside from the opening hand gamble and coin flip for turn order" There are free casino games for your phone, maybe just try those?

[@MBTElestrals]

uh... good?

[@polocatfan]

dude I don't wanna be toxic, but nobody cares about this game but you.

[@the_skywalker644]

I do, he does If you don't like the content you can just not watch it you know

[@23jewfan]

So you came to his secondary channel to state a clearly poor take? Free time much?