Life Without Men: The 4B Movement

[@JennyNobody]

The idea of 2019 being a long time ago is making me feel the oldest I have ever felt

[@SemekiIzuio]

Covid f us over for a while, we literally lost time for us. For me those years are a blank, I was busy working as an essential worker but couldnt form an real memories that werent repetitive work days routine.

[@foxpro3002]

yeah, its crazy, I'm now a fully young adult and it only felt like three years.

[@nasifkhan8959]

tbf u will always be the oldest u have ever been

[@_VISION.]

It's not that long ago, they just have adhd

[@JennyNobody]

@@nasifkhan8959 but i didnt feeeeeeeel it xD

[@NeighborhoodOfBlue]

Pregnancy does more than cause pain and cause health complications, it ages your body. If you don't have access to proper nutrition it can impact bone density. The lack of health/ sex ed in schools is a cost to us all, with so many poorly informed on issues that many are too embarrassed to inform themselves on. It's hard to even evaluate what it is that you don't know.

[@Ayem427]

THIS, like my Mom literally got a freak blood clot during her first one and almost died, pregnancy isn't something to be taken lightly or for granted, and it's absolutely insane that cis women are expected to just go along with that, regardless of their own desires

[@coffeize4829]

My mother got a epidural for me and my brother, witch made her back horrible, her bones and legs hurt every day, she has painful varicose veins is very thought giving birth.

[@apersonwhohasnothing]

My mother did not get it too bad like almost dying but she did get diabetes and all her teeth started falling out. Pregnancy really does take a toll on your quality of life and there is a big chance that you will never recover from it. Not to mention how all the responsibility of raising the children falls back on to the mother always, which leads to more stress.

[@vidarrimini5109]

@@apersonwhohasnothing Oh gods, same with the teeth. I feel for my mum so much, she was so young, in so much pain and so self-conscious that she never wanted to laugh or smile open. I literally ruined her, it hurts.

[@Dead_Inside_And_Out]

The fuck you laughing at?​@@jonjonsovich1420

[@Ultravenom1]

"Our birthrates are down because of a small amount of radical women, not because of corporate consolidation of the entire country!"

[@TreeHairedGingerAle]

😅 They are constantly and consistently blaming the wrong things, while simultaneously clinging to the colonial and corporate power structures that are _demonstrably_ killing us and this planet 😟

[@Name..........]

Actually birthrates are down because of the rising poverty rates along with the larger 1% of the planet holding the majority of the wealth....u can't have kids if you can't even afford to feed your self

[@espeon871]

If theres something a conservative and capitalist system gonna do its to deflect while calling the defectors of a system the issue while ignoring the real issue

[@gregvs.theworld451]

@@TreeHairedGingerAle Dude in America, I've noticed this too. Feels infuriating that I can see what's holding us back, but other dudes don't get it and many seemingly don't want to get it.

[@MuhammadAlkomy]

​@@TreeHairedGingerAle you really think that a democratically run oil company will care about nature more ?

[@guessmyname1246]

Despite not growing up in Korea my parents still lived with Korean attitudes so despite my mom ebing the SOLE breadwinner, she was the one who actually took care of us She was the one who cooked, did laundry, cleaned, grocery shopped, took us to school, etc, etc While my dad sat around and watched tv I dont want to have a life like that

[@MyriamRichardsdotter]

Yep. The men expect the women to do all the sh1tty grunt work while the men are scrolling for new hot flesh online. Miserable existence. These men would be happier with female robots, and they WILL replace women with robots as soon as they can.

[@handlebar4520]

richard watterson aah dad

[@djotchuiangela9955]

​@@handlebar4520 no Richard Watterson was one of my favourite characters

[@sriharshacv7760]

The scenario where women earn higher than men in general doesn't help either. That kills the negotiating power of men and makes relationships meaningless.

[@AdumbDriver]

​@@sriharshacv7760If relationships lose meaning the moment you feel like you can't use money to attract women, maybe you should start looking at yourself as a person.

[@capnbarky2682]

I'm a dad and husband. I bust my ass to be a provider, my body has been driven to extreme levels of exhaustion playing and carrying my daughter, doing things around the house, going to work. I started going to the gym just so my back wouldn't break with how much time I spend with my toddler. When I get home from work I'm doing chores, I don't get a break until she's asleep. The idea that there are men getting by expecting a woman to carry their child when they can't even decorate, clean or do laundry is infuriating. Almost all of my friends who have gotten married are divorced now and I always saw it coming a mile away when they have kids and the guy just wants to shut himself in the basement to play call of duty when he gets home.

[@susannehuber3996]

SIR, I APPLAUD YOU. ❤❤❤❤❤ your wife is an extremely lucky woman.

[@capnbarky2682]

@@susannehuber3996 She's really lucky cause our daughter is in our life and we love her but she's just as exhausted as I am most days b/c she's a stay at home mom, I can't really alleviate that at all. It's just crazy to me that people could treat having kids as some side quest when even if you put in the maximum effort you're going to end up in really miserable situations, or think it's fair if one person is way more tired. I was in a headspace when we were having kids that I was going to be tired and worn out all the time and that if I wasn't that meant I wasn't trying hard enough. Like if a man really wants kids they gotta be projecting how ready they are to have their bodies absolutely wrecked carrying that kid for hours at a time and getting screamed at and dealing with hormonal changes and scary doctor's visits and all their money going to that kid. That's the bare minimum at this point.

[@aship-shippingshipshipsshippin]

then what is your wife doing?

[@capnbarky2682]

@@aship-shippingshipshipsshippin Raising her for the 8 hrs im not there, cooking, cleaning, shopping for us,

[@Hinson3000]

@@capnbarky2682 you got really lucky. A lot women don’t want raise a home while the man is busting there ass. A lot women just want the man to work than use his money to go buy bags and luxury goods and sit around just because they can give you sex. My friends marriages also failed and it’s sad .I always tell them sex isn’t enough for a relationship. Love is work and no ones wants to put it in. They expect it to be easy but I just look at my parents and I’m like damn this shit is beautiful but difficult.

[@생강-w4g]

To Korean women, why don't you have children? When asked, most people simply say, "Just because." Why is this? Due to the world's highest wage discrimination between men and women and deeply rooted misogyny, 80% of Korean women raise children alone when they get married. Even 50 years ago, they were forced into pregnancy and marriage through kidnapping and rape. Explaining this is exhausting. In Korean society, men are often considered special, so women replace detailed explanations with "just because." If you want to understand how serious South Korea's misogyny and crimes against women are, look into the 'Burning Sun' incident and the recent 'Tzuyang' incident.

[@atlas956]

it kind of makes sense. why participate in something that will only put you worse off, and then blame you for complaining? you don’t technically HAVE to, so you just say no? they now have options that their grandmothers probably didn’t

[@purple66666]

Or N rooms. Or how even foreign spouses are not exempt from this extensive violence, most of mixed marriages resulting in a divorce because of domestic violence which many times is just torture

[@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259]

​@@atlas956exavtly

[@Kekkeri59]

"User-mw37484j" nice bot account and bot comment pushing feminism

[@mangoesaredelicious4622]

there's so many scandals amongst South Korean celebrities where women are screwed over by men. it's sad

[@PokhrajRoy.]

This movement will be a separate semester in Gender Studies one day.

[@hjeriz]

How online platforms promote radfem propaganda?

[@botanicalitus4194]

@@hjerizthe movement is not radfem, its radical but not "radfem". The people who engage with it online can be toxic but this is true for literally every single thing that is discussed online, the actual meat of the movement is the ways korean women are supporting each other in real life, finding ways to live independently from traditionalism, and reclaiming their autonomy both personally and legally. And thats what should be discussed most when talking about the movement

[@hjeriz]

@babybee2025 this is basicity repacked political lesbianism.

[@hjeriz]

​@babybee2025 this is basically repacked political lesbianism -- the online phenomenon not the korean one. We have been here before, we know whats wrong with this and yet 3/4 decades later we still dont call it out.

[@OrangeBroccoli]

@@hjerizExcept its not because these Iadies are not pretending to be gay or politicizing other people's identities for their own gain. They are making a personal political choice to not have romantic relationships with guys, and to prioritize helping each other out and looking out for each other. And its based af

[@thunderrunner666]

Speaking as a man, given the fucked up historical context, old fashioned societal expectations, and disgustingly invasive and exploitative practices like secretly filming girls/women without their consent, I can understand why a movement like this would gain traction. This is a matter of human rights and living with respect and dignity, not demonizing men.

[@thunderrunner666]

I think we are looking at this from different perspectives. My comment is about acknowledging the movement as a response to historical/cultural grievances, and domestic abuse. I don't see how men are demonized in this context.

[@Beforeigo-x9v]

its funny because western women want rights then typically devastate that by voting to import a army of men into there country that dont even have woman rights in ther vocabulary

[@VelvetRed-rz8ur]

We appreciate your intelligence and your sympathy for our cause. ❤

[@TasnimAhana-vw8ct]

​@hoked2194 How are they taking it out on the average men? I'm curious to hear your opinion.

[@VelvetRed-rz8ur]

@@hoked2194 did you perhaps felt identified with the perverts? Because the average guy with common sense and good heart like the gentleman 🎩 @thunderrunner not only didn’t take offense but also support the movement; it is common sense wanting respect and asking to preserve the dignity of women who do not consent of being filmed, as their slogans said; *”my life is not your p0rn”*

[@lisa6356]

I don't think this is just a trend. I believe the more women talk about this, the more women will want to leave men alone. This movement started a conversation among women and the gaslighting we feel we can see that others are going to it.

[@Babyblue115]

4N movement let' go

[@luisapaza317]

Yep. Not a trend, that is understimating and minimizing this political action. Hope women in South Korea (and in the world) get really trascendental advances in equality. For real

[@thepagecollective]

The fact is, men don't want women, either.

[@threeofeight197]

I think the best take away is that it’s better to be alone than to be with a partner who doesn’t share your values. Male or female or anyone in between. It’s a good thing that we’re no longer required to form traditional families if we don’t want to.

[@gregvs.theworld451]

@@thepagecollective I don't know if your angle here is societal observation or misogyny, but I think you may be right. A lot of the dudes who get mad over women not wanting them and degrade and deride and put down women for considering not being with men don't even attempt to consider what the women are saying, and I never see them say anything about why they want women or what they even like about women, they seemingly just feel rage that women don't want *them* like they're *supposed to* by their divine rite of being born female. It does make me wonder if a lot of the dudes getting pissy at women telling them to step up or get left behind even like women. Maybe if more dudes talked about women and acted towards women in a way that suggested they see their value, worth, and beauty, that they desire, want, respect, and value womens company, style, thoughts, contributions, etc., maybe we wouldn't have such a sharp gender divide we're seeing. Recently I've considered that, if men talked to and about women the way I tend to see lesbians talk about women, just about how they adore everything about women, I think it very well may be the case that there'd be a lot of dudes who'd be finding girlfriends and getting laid instead of being angry misogynists and incels online.

[@Godhelpus62]

Also women who have been abused by men in S Korea, even killed, don’t sometimes get justice. A man is given the benefit of the doubt and the women often blamed. If I lived there, I’d avoid men too.

[@tarablue4472]

I don't think that problem is isolated to S. Korea.

[@vel5785]

@tarablue4472 fr it's all over the world and we're not really improving any better in most countries not that I know of

[@morningboy_]

i hate that people are saying that the 4b movement is because women don't wanna have kids there. It's literally so much more than that.

[@nicoroberts7388]

Korea has been run by Samsung family for like 2000 years. What’s actually changed is attitudes towards men, not corporate consolidation.

[@SubvertTheState]

Feminism is completely pointless. It's the only movement which has no real goals other than social suicide. Women have a special ability to backwards rationalize their life choices and say it was the right choice. Women are a special class of citizen in Korea in the West. I would like to know how that's not the case when 24% of companies have an EXPLICIT, yes EXPLICIT "No White Men" hiring policy, and Affirmative Action is still pushed even though 78% of college graduates are women. Feminism should be shamed and publicly ridiculed, because it has never stood for anything it has ever claimed. Women will never count their privileges, because the movement demands endless complaints of persecution. The fight is against poor and working class men, never against corrupt power. Feminism has nothing to say about foreign policy or the draft because it's purely about selfishness. Your personal desires not about what's just. Feminism successfully gave what little power was left, directly to monopoly corporations. For men, work was a means to provide for their family, now the corporation is the symbol of a woman's success. The way women define themselves as their service to corporate interest is pathetic and off putting.

[@dapperwolf6034]

Yes it's a bunch of immature women children for going their natural biological process to create babies because they feel like their feelings are hurt. It is so much more than a movement about narcissistic and entitled women wanting to be men and getting nothing in return.

[@jimbothegymbro7086]

4b is using children as leverage to get men to do what they want, plot twist is men are just going "yeah? fine I'll just leave"

[@thierrytecumseh734]

It’s from misandry and a serious and delusional victim mentality.

[@TrustTheDice]

As a women in korea having to suffer the korean men on a daily basis i jumped at this video. Thanks for brining this to light!

[@voidwalker7774]

What is so bad about them? For context. I am man from germany and i am just curious.

[@st.altair4936]

@@voidwalker7774 They're very misogynist and right-wing lol. It's the result of decades of capitalism and corporate consolidation.

[@wednes3day]

​@@voidwalker7774die Gacha Drama and Korean Gender Wars Videos von Moon Channel geben einen guten Einblick meiner Meinung nach

[@natasha5553]

@@voidwalker7774 men are consistently killing their wives and gfs its in the news...sexual trafficking is so high women are never taken srsly and men are giving rape and death threats to the korean feminist speaking on it...I can suggest you an acc from a korean feminist activist who daily tells her experinces with evidence and proof if you want to see how extremely bad it is

[@elsnk.o2345]

@@voidwalker7774 well, google is available

[@monimuppet6132]

You will probably forever be my fav essayist because every time I think I know where you're going with a subject, you do so much more. I often leave your vids feeling embarrassed and a little ashamed that I hadn't considered the aspects you described, but I think that's a good thing 😊

[@nothereyetlost]

Translation you thought he was fighting for women and thank god he’s not.

[@monimuppet6132]

@@nothereyetlost Leave the translating to actual linguists, Love. 🫡

[@nothereyetlost]

@@monimuppet6132 negative. I will not.

[@monimuppet6132]

@@nothereyetlost 🫡

[@snowflake3650]

Rather than hearing these women pain, fear, trauma, the government just directly brush it off and see them as angry shouting women. The Molka, The nth room, cases like Burning Sun, you can't just brush these off. These happen, and many more might coming. The victim? Women.

[@raykarpp]

Not just women, children, little school girls, girls not even in school... hidden cameras in public toilets dont only target women, small children also use those toilets..

[@rmmx77]

@@snowflake3650 maybe because that’s exactly what they are. Good on South Korea for not entertaining feminist drivel and calling out their propaganda for what it is

[@Lioness_Es]

And those who refuse to hear will fear. That's why they're angry about low birth rates. Let those numbers fall into the red!

[@webweaver222]

elliot !!!! i have been telling people for YEARS about the association of femininity w/ nature and how it plays into colonialist ideals of domination but no one has ever taken that point seriously. to hear u say it in this video made me jump out my seat. this one was well worth the wait and effort, thank u so much for ur work 🤍

[@grey_f98]

there is a lot of academia on this, not a new concept, colonialism has always been depicted as androcentric and domination based

[@asongfromunderthefloorboards]

That's a foundation of eco-feminism.

[@webweaver222]

@@grey_f98 thanks for letting me know, figured it wasn't new cuz what really is now adays lol. just happy i now have a name to the theory, appreciate it 🙏🏼🤍

[@webweaver222]

@@asongfromunderthefloorboards something i will be reading more of ! adding it to the list

[@marcietownsend3635]

If you speak to people in colonized countries, they're clear about patriarchy, imperialism and colonialism all being the same root.

[@frusia123]

For a number of years I was happy to do house chores, because I worked part time. So I thought that was fair. Then I started working full time and asked my partner to share the house work more evenly with me. He started doing more (still nowhere near a half), but I was shocked to see that he kind of felt humiliated by it. It was a real eye opener to realise that for years he was ok with me doing all those things he considered "humiliating" and never once thought of asking "how are you feeling with doing all that servant's work?" I could have worked professionally and saved more money, instead I was doing hours of unpaid labour every week 😐 If that's not exploitation, I don't know how to call it. Luckily, I don't have children, if I did, I would probably be too busy to watch this video and write this comment.

[@mymusicmen13]

Did you talk to him about it? Or did you assume it was humiliating in his eyes? Ask him if and why he finds it humiliating. It's not particularly abnormal for men to consider it humiliating to not be the breadwinner and provider or to do the housework after it has been culturally imprinted by the many previous generations. Do not assume he looks down on you for doing it.

[@nothereyetlost]

Please tell me you left him? Bc if he thought it was serxsvrs work bug he was ok with YOU doing it, then yhe saw you as a servant 😢😖😖 please stop giving yourself to a demon like that. These males are demons. I’ve reviewed it too to bottom right to left, back to front and this the only thing that makes sense. I don’t even think they came about naturally and I’ve been trying ri figure out where they came from…and some other things

[@nothereyetlost]

@@mymusicmen13sftu

[@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259]

That's so weird.

[@manifest2203]

Exactly. As long as it benefits them, they will be ok. Once you start expecting more, their true colors will come out.

[@pineappllesta]

3:00 "why do women find men to be so scary" in my personal experience, im an avid hiker and just - nature nerd in general. The amount of times ive been followed by men and also assaulted or nearly so by these men vs. The amount of times ive been around "big dangerous animals" like bob cats, panthers, and bears - and guess what? The "big scary animals" just minded their business. It was beautiful, i got to peacefully observe them and have a wonderful experience. Whereas these men wouldnt stop following me, wouldnt stop trying to touch me etc. they see our bodies as something to conquer and take or something. It sucks

[@SemekiIzuio]

I just keep thinking what infected their brains their souls to behave this way. Why do men think they have power over women, no our anatomy isnt equal but we both deserve respect and equal social structures. Neither gender is better then the other.

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

Get a gun then Jesus Christ. You guys would rather complain and complain rather than fucking do something about the problem. A man tries to grab you pepper spray him, if he gets angry and calls his friends to attack you distance yourself and pull out your gun the police will understand. But American women are so thirsty for victim hood status that they’d rather stay harmless and weak than fight

[@rickfastly2671]

Society is cooked

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

@@pineappllesta you know there was a court case a little while ago where a woman stabbed a guy 60 times in the chest under the influence of drugs and she got let go with no charges because the judge said “she had no control over her actions during this drug induced psychotic break”

[@pineappllesta]

@@RaidenMustDie3594 ????

[@9fllower]

Its absolutely crazy to me as a 17 yr old female that men feel so entitled to my body that they think its misandry to just want to be completely single as a woman.

[@milktea-xb6gq]

You, young lady, are actually using your brain. That's too much logic, especially for people who won't improve themselves.

[@stephensharper4312]

As a 17 yr old female, you probably have at least 3 diagnosable mental illnesses, so everything is probably crazy to you

[@Kensuke22]

you go on and do your own thing girl! ignore these idiots!

[@LunaMovas-ki5xv]

Be you! You don't own no one a shit

[@handleisGG]

nobody calls men MALES you're a woman, a human being not a species gender "female" is derived from misogyny

[@Iquey]

Finally a woman at the beginning who knows what she is talking about instead of that influencer on TikTok who tried speaking for all Korean women making 4B seem like just a very fringe joke with no relevance. If the international internet finds out about it (especially Western media), it has some relevance, even if we don't have all the prior context, we are capable of looking into the history of the movement.

[@CharlieApples]

If you think Western feminists think of 4B as a joke, you haven’t delved very deep into western feminists circles.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

{ If you know, you know.

[@Schwupsdupsbeepboop]

Oh the media already knows about it, it just ain't carin'

[@rmmx77]

@@Iquey it is a fringe joke. I live in Korea and most people don’t even know what it is here. 4B is just western nonsense being shoved down here by foreigners.

[@110.12dc]

I live in Korea and it literally is a fringe joke. foreigners act like they know anything about Asia 💀

[@DiamondKing-em7oc]

4B movement is S. Korea isn't a surprise, realizing that in this country women are paid 30% less than men,ds and misogyny is something normal

[@Neo-jty]

wrong, it's just that koean women don't do hard labor job, they work less hour than men, and they don't really do any dangerous job, so they should get paid less, if someone works less hour than you, take less risk than you, do less labor intense job, that person should gets paid less than you

[@anju5124]

What's ds?

[@Bobogdan258]

@@Neo-jty Google Controlling for a variable. This is a standard practice in the statistics you seem to be underestimating, since you believe to be smarter than them to not control for all the variables you're pointing at.

[@Neo-jty]

@@Bobogdan258 what is that has to do with google? you don't need to google to know that women are lazy in general, you don't need to google to know women work less hour than men worldwide, you don't need to google to know most women don't do hard labor jobs, you don't need to google to know most people who die in work are men, facts are facts, women deverse the payment they get

[@DiamondKing-em7oc]

@@anju5124 a mistake, a wrote it fast

[@Cryinginthecloudssss]

My fathers always told me the most dangerous thing you can run into in the woods is another person

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

Your father also should have told you “shut off that damn computer and go outside and play” 💀

[@LivVirtual]

@@RaidenMustDie3594 my mother tells me not to do that, because she's afraid i'll run into another person 💀

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

@@LivVirtual that explains why you’re chronically in misandrist echo chambers, cuz yo mom never told you to get your ass off of twitter

[@micki0finn430]

Don't go to Alaska please.

[@chester9585]

​@@RaidenMustDie3594can't you have some public decency and not spout insults like these without any evidence, aren't you ashamed to be a human being and acting like a middle school child? how do you think your mother would act when they see your scouring the net just to start a petty fight with strangers instead if enjoying yourself, grt off the computer and touch some grass, if you are already then touch more grass. You aren't even trying to have a friendly debate, you're just being an asshole, this isn't healthy.

[@dungeonmaster217]

I'm a guy. Guys who are being hysterical and calling feminism misandry don't understand how much toxic masculinity and current image of a "REAL MAN" hurts men a lot. Current role of man is of someone at power, but at the cost of their humanity being mangled - fuck that shit. My father despite being a very kind person at his core, was taught from the childhood all these bullshit standarts about not showing feelings, not seeking help if needed, that his only role is to bring money to the family, and this role also justifies all the abuse. And if you chose not to follow these standarts, you are being shamed for not being masculine enough. How the hell guys don't understand, that feminists don't hate men - they hate this toxic image. Maybe being cockblocked at mass will open their eyes.

[@questioningespecialy9107]

"How the hell guys don't understand, that feminists don't hate men - they hate this toxic image." i like to give the benefit of the doubt and say that most of them either 1) had impactful negative experiences with feminists (of whatever kind) or 2) just believed what they were (constantly) told 🤷🏿‍♂

[@treacherousjslither6920]

Us men being brainwashed into accepting our disposability and becoming stoic tough guys who work hard to protect and provide has been relatively successful for human civilization imo. It seems like everyone knows this because they see it every day but no one wants to acknowledge it.

[@adelb7897]

​​@@treacherousjslither6920 yeah but it only works if men are given absolute power and respect over women because it's a huge sacrifice of men's humanity. Not saying this is wrong or right but now it doesnt make sense at all to see yourself as a man to be disposable in any way. That thought alone disgusts me to my core. I think we either go along with working on getting rid of old social norms so that all men and women can decide how they want to live their lives without following a script, make an entirely new script that is fair for both sides or go back to our old gender roles.

[@questioningespecialy9107]

@@treacherousjslither6920 successful in what way? and how does it compare to brainwashing people into accepting their oppression (e.g.: anti-union, pro-slavery, child labor, etc.)?

[@LancesArmorStriking]

The gender role surrounding men didn't just pop into existence in the 1950s, though. It's cross-cultural (with variation ofc) but it's borne out of biology. Humans are a sexually dimorphic species where males are on average bigger and stronger than females. They (literally) evolved into a more physical role than the female members, needing to lead the group on a hunt or defend the tribe from attackers. That naturally led to needing to stay calm in stressful situations. And, since we're not living in a utopia, someone needs to take on that role. That socially conditioned male role was borne of necessity, not in some sinister plot to control women. Lol If men are encouraged to wear their heart on their sleeve, they may lose the ability (or not even believe in the concept of) holding their emotions back for a time to handle difficult situations. If more women were encouraged to do the same, maybe we could work something out. But ultimately there's no way to guarantee that two emotional people end up in a bad situation with no one to calm them down. That's similar to the dynamic between parent and child. It's the parent's societal role to be the rock, and let the child cry. Even in a non-familial relationship, SOMEONE has to be the rock. The reason that many men don't respect the feminist view of the world is because it's reactionary. It doesn't propose a real-life, workable solution that doesn't also shoehorn in a completely different way of life for the vast majority of people. We can't switch to egalitarianism right away. We can't undo the capitalist system right away. So if you want a social order that equalizes men and women's societal worth without destabilizing the societies it's applied to, you need a more fleshed-out plan.

[@debrarymer]

You know the whole situation could be solved by simply acknowledging that women are as fully human as are men and are due the same autonomy as men.

[@TimelessErsy]

This...point blank full stop❤

[@mmm...-be7zx]

I think they are incapable, biologically speaking. They never Will see you as people. Stay safe

[@debrarymer]

@@mmm...-be7zx Baby I live in the Bronx. My people got my back. :)

[@hoodatdondar2664]

@@mmm...-be7zx men or women?

[@pinkie_playz2732]

4B is not a gender war. It's a women's safety movement. Physical and emotional safety.

[@thorfinnoars1443]

this is such a funny conclusion and i’m not gonna waste my time dismantling why it is, but the very obvious reason why this is a terrible idea because this leads to extinction💀 or if this really catches on, population bottlenecks which will lead to a large part of the genetic pool that contributed to genetic diversity just being gone. which can lead to bad unintended genes or unfit genes getting carried over to other generations that would’ve been selected out has the genetic pool been there 💀

[@carolitoffana]

woman be like: we want to not be raped and murdered men: omg they hate us!!!! this is a gender war ☠

[@ike804]

This has literally done nothing to make women more safe

[@dulcecaramel]

@@ike804 Yes it absolutely did lol The individual womenparticipating in the movement are doing so because of the high risk of DV and other forms of spousaIabuse wives and gf face. They are objectively keeping themselves safer by not entering romantic relationships with guys anymore

[@notbeanbag8764]

​@@ike804 like dating men made us more safe 😶

[@stepfaniehawkins205]

That Korean woman did say that women in Korea want to get married...... The part she left out (or perhaps you left it out) is they can't find a non misogynistic man to marry, it kind of leaves them by default, rather than choice, in a 4B position

[@Kekkeri59]

Feminism made misogyny more radical. Who could have guessed?

[@CorvusIsSilly]

@@Kekkeri59 no way you're openly defending bigotry and saying being against said bigotry is to blame for it being bad..

[@viridia1526]

@@Kekkeri59Feminism is when women want equality, misogyny is when women are prejudiced against. Feminism fights against misogyny. In a society like Korea, conservative sexist views are the norm. So naturally, feminism fights against misogyny. You don’t even know what you’re talking about. So butthurt, pray you never find a woman.

[@monicoreheart]

@@Kekkeri59 do you even know radical means?

[@nicolasbascunan4013]

@@CorvusIsSilly Both misandry and misogeny exist.

[@farheenshanilshah7804]

Beside the financial stress , have you seen new Nth room case again popping up How these men torture little girls , thier own daughter , sister , wife and mother, schoolmates , co workers.

[@amysworld5521]

Ikr

[@mbreeze2203]

My mother started getting into kdrama and I told her about the cameras in the restrooms and she was shocked. Never thought about visiting Korea again 😂😂

[@april9242]

This video made me feel so many things, especially at the end. Moving to Canada from Korea when I was 12, I always felt there was unfairness in the world. Moving to a “better” country from “worse” country made me constantly question the state of the global society, where the label like “first world” and “third world country” are normalized. I felt disgusted by this normalization of hierarchy of land and nation, and I would get extremely angry at the idea that S. Korea (and many other nations that are deem as “dirty”) are below the European and North American nations. I also wonder about my life if my family hadn’t moved. I see the news and people’s talk about Korean society online and in person, and I feel this guilt for “escaping” the harsh realities in S. Korea, especially as someone who’s seen as a woman via larger society. “Why do I get to be here in Canada when they are suffering in their own land? How am I allowed to be Korean when I’m here, living free from Korean society’s constraints?” These thought got worse with the rise of anti-feminism in Korea. Kim sooJa’s art at the end legit teared me up. It’s like I’m stuck between two society, not of difference in culture, but in difference of “progress” and “power”. I’m living and existing inbetween the world where one society is deemed as “better” than other, and it’s a constant push and pull, in a world that pretends that it’s just “a cultural difference” or that im going through ”identity crisis”. They say It’s me who is confused in two “cultures”, but I was never confused about myself; i was confused about the norm. Her arts are fascinating to me because they seem to express and describe complexity through simplicity. I wanna write SO MUCH MORE but I’m running out of time rn. Thx for the video, and thx for the ending and again thx for seeing korea without orientalist gaze. I think ur one of the few creator that does so haha.

[@Biiku_]

Sorry, I had a whole heart felt and meaningful response and I have no idea if it went through. But the tldr was this: please find a way to write more. I'd like to read it when you do.

[@lordtette]

I'm not Korean but as someone who moved from Zimbabwe to Enlgand at 5 - the same country that colonised us. I've had the same guilt? I don't know if that's the word but It feels like survivors guilt to me. But the hiearchy you mentioned pisses me off too. I have to screenshot this post.

[@lalakuma9]

I feel like I have a similar but somewhat opposite experience. I grew up in Indonesia until I was 10, and only moved to a "developed" country after 18. Growing up, I was very aware of the huge disparity both in wealth and progressive cultural/humanitarian views between (mostly) Western and developing countries. Honestly I really envy and am quite outraged by the privilege people with Western citizenships/legal residencies have, and how much sheer luck of what family you were born into has a role in that. (Which also has a ton to do with colonialism, but I'd be writing a whole essay if I start with that + immigration). I do have a bit of a survivor's guilt when I hear about something really backwards happening back home, but at the same time so exhausted with trying to fight against the mentality of millions of people.

[@Makes_me_wonder]

​@@lordtetteHope you are still able to return to Zimbabwe because the UK is going down the shitter.

[@teyak13]

​​@@lordtette You and the OP finally put into words what I have struggled to describe for the past ten years. I moved to the US from Jordan when I was 12, and I feel an odd sense of survivor's guilt even though most of the people I left behind are doing just fine? And the concept of "first-" and "third-world" also grossed me out but more with how it affected others' perception of me; people used to ask if I knew what a car or a TV was when I first came here. The depictions of poorer countries in media just makes us seem so backwards when that is not the case, and there are vibrant, futuristic cities and passionate activists almost everywhere.

[@garydomaz1849]

As a black American woman I LOVE THIS. My South Korean sisters are STANDING ON MF BUSINESS!!!

[@LoreEclectic]

My sisters and I have all decided to join. Can't wait to see this movement grow even bigger

[@massimilianomencacci2510]

Oh, please. Cut the bullshit, please. You are only pissed because republicans win the election. With a solid majority even in the women section.

[@zotfotpiq]

grew up playing sports. remember how guys used to talk about their girlfriends in the locker room. this movement surprises me, not at all.

[@ladybug3380]

What would they say?

[@carrotbo9]

@@ladybug3380 im curious too

[@zotfotpiq]

@@ladybug3380 in defense of the average guy, most were nice. if they were lucky enough to have a girlfriend, they treated and spoke of them with respect. but, i guess among the guys jockeying for position among the popular crowd, it was almost a competition to see who could get away with being the most abusive. they would joke around openly about disgusting behavior they'd perpetrated in the past and suggest what they planned to do in the future. it was deliberately hard to tell what was true and what was bravado. but girls talked and sometimes there were bruises or someone would miss class so. 🤮 the worst part was that the coaches were there... they just didn't give a 💩.

[@ladybug3380]

@@zotfotpiq it all stems from wanting to be accepted by their peers. You’re more “Alpha” if you hurt women with no remorse. We always wonder who started this “gender war” but no one wants to be held accountable for their actions.

[@zotfotpiq]

@@ladybug3380 i want to judge them because I was a sick kid. but the people who raised us were sick. traumatized by wars. my parents had 5 jobs between them because they were afraid of poverty. so much racism, bigotry, and misogyny just built into normal suburban upbringing. it's not an excuse. part of an explanation. I'm glad i got (am getting) to raise my own son in an era and environment that's more progressive.

[@the.masked.one.studio4899]

I think that as a concept it can be quite liberating. Most women feel so much pressure to bear children and subject themselves to emotionally and physically unsafe experiences. I don’t identify as a woman but was raised as one, Even after having a child I felt almost doomed to being trapped with a man for years. The simple concept of 4B made me realize that I don’t have to engage with any of that if I choose not to. Something else could have been the catalyst but after experiencing romantic/sexual/relationship abuse I was terrified to think that I’d eventually be subjected to it against my will again.

[@FrankieWilliams-kx9gp]

You must admit it’s not sustainable on a large scale though. I suppose it doesn’t matter, regardless of what any of us do things will continue marching on. If you sit down and choose not to continue typically no one will try to make you get back up. That’s my experience, but with a woman maybe people feel more inclined to attempt to force you to keep going. It should be your choice to stop playing the game, I agree. If you want to join us guys who have given up, I welcome you.

[@the.masked.one.studio4899]

@@FrankieWilliams-kx9gp I think for some the lack of sustainability is a motivator. Some people think of it as a boycott for improved support/safety measures. The metropolitan police in London are declaring gender violence as a major terrorist threat. We need that in the US. We also need major infrastructure to provide mothers support when/if they choose to have children. Last I read over 60% of single mothers are in poverty and as currently stands the financial requirements for government assistance (which haven’t been adjusted in decades) are so low that you need to be close or experiencing homelessness to access them locking people into a violent cycle of poverty. Thank you for the warm invitation. I’m happy to engage with anyone who will respectfully do the same. I don’t support gender separatists but I do understand why women feel the need to create safe spaces. Gender seems somewhat ambiguous to me at this time although I think I’m typically clocked as a gay woman, or effeminate man. Certainly preferring the latter but whatever. Romantic relationships are the furthest thing I’m interested in pursuing. I’m applying for my doctorate in urban education and I’ll be intensely occupied for the next 6 or more years. In addition to raising my disabled first grader. Hopefully I’ll be able to step into a role that tenaciously supports families and children experiencing the things we have endured. :) 💖

[@typical_orange_cat]

I feel bad for your child :(

[@rmmx77]

@@the.masked.one.studio4899 single mothers are the ones who put themselves into poverty when they initiated divorces for whatever reasons. Single mothers who live in poverty deserve it for destroying their families and secondly who cares what woman want. Now a days feminists find whatever reason to complain. It’s a victim complex and it’s getting old

[@dapperwolf6034]

I don't identify somebody with a rational mind but I will say that your comment comes off as somebody who still hasn't left the playpen. No one is telling women to Bear children the message is actually opposite in Media. And your proof that the propaganda works telling young women to not forgo their natural function but just identify as an androgynous caricature and live your life an abject misery hoping one day you'll make everyone who ever tangentially even thought you were likeable wrong

[@gnocchi5326]

interview with Hawon was so insightful. thank you for your video, much to think about🙆‍♀️

[@eventhorizon2264]

Let's not forget all of the sexual violence sa and abuse Korean women go through or just discrimination and abuse in workplaces and daily to daily life i support 4b movement as a woman my self

[@CaptureTizz97]

How does that racist Kool-Aid taste?

[@JordanCooneyMartin]

Vids like this are why I subscribed. So what if you’re the ‘nuance guy’ , I’m here for it! I loved the call to action at the end too, very inspiring. I’m gonna be thinking about that one…

[@vikki8699]

I really support the South Korean women with the 4B movement. They really have it hard! Their men are so loved and cherished that even when a man has no job, it is still expected for the women to provide, do 100% the household and child care whilst also looking after all elderly in the family! In South Korea, I heard that everyone wants a son and daughter in-law. But no ones wants a daughter. Its so heart breaking and I understand why South Korean woman have just walked completely away. They are not being listened to, heard or understood so they all have said, if you're going to be a brick wall when it comes to our issues, we will treat you as such. They have walked away from a table where their men refuse to hear and understand them. This has now echoed to the west because after hearing the Korean womens reasons, we resonated with their plight and stand with them. Why? Here in the west, women are expected to work similar hours to similar work as men yet when women come home and all the housework and child rearing is still a woman's responsibility. If a woman speaks out about it, she is minimized, devalued, dismissed and all her labour is seen as irrelevant compared to a mans. Whilst this happens, women in the west get the marriage penality and even more penality when they have a child(ren) in the workplace and in society. Some women are refused a mortgage on their own in child-bearing age because of this! This is why the western women are taking on 4B. If we are not being listened to, why are we bothering being at a table who is hell bent on misunderstanding us? So, we logically walked away. These are not the other factors in play. Its the terrible economy, threat of world war III, nuclear war threats and seeing how difficult it is for us to even have our own homes whilst in good jobs. I say, if it is difficult for me in an excellent job with good pay. How is it going to be for my unborn children in 20 years time? I'd rather protect my unborn children from that suffering bcause we all know how society shames women for having children (even if married to a man) when they cannot afford to house and feeds themselves, let alone a child. We're classed irresponsible. Now women are not having kids to be responsible, we're to blame for the falling birth rates. Society can piss off with its double-bind. Let it die. All societies collapse eventually and its always because a few people refuse to be fair. They can no longer have it both ways. The ball is now in the court of those who hold power. Change or die out. May South Korean women win their rights to equality! ❤

[@IamHandsome4u]

U are generalizing a lot. Just bcs korean men there dont make videos abt them, the korean women think they can say whatever they want. Its same like western men complaining abt western women, whom u women think them as incel, similarly these korean women are incel here.

[@rmmx77]

@@vikki8699 lmao I live in Korea and most men and women are living their life like normal. Politicians don’t notice anything and there is nowhere near the call for change westerners make it out to be. 4B is a small movement that mainly has over 30 year old women which are women that aren’t even desirable to most men regardless.

[@HazyFace_]

@@rmmx77 cute copium you have there

[@rmmx77]

@@HazyFace_ If anything it’s 4B that’s the cope. That’s the funny part about this 🤣🤣

[@sunshoe-l5r]

wtf are you talking about, society is completely rigged in favor of women

[@AetherTiger8]

"Political lesbians" were a thing during 2nd wave feminism, but "born this way" ideology conflicted too much-- the idea that you *could* choose to be gay conflicted with the framework of how marriage was being fought for as a birthright-- so "feminism turning people into lesbians" isn't a new thing and it's nothing to be afraid of either.

[@lordtette]

I always took political lesbians as lesbians period but feminism made them feel comfortable coming out

[@AlexAzureOtaku]

Weren't political lesbians just....roommates for socio-economic purposes to detangle from men?

[@oiytd5wugho]

@@lordtette Well, some of them certainly were gay or bi. But you can't discount the people calling themselves lesbians while actually being entirely celibate and not interested in any romantic relationships with women, that was a real thing. You can swear off sex and relationships without appropriating the spaces and experiences of lesbians. If you read some of the political lesbian writings, they're... clearly not gay in any capacity. Political lesbianism was ultimately about saying _no_ to men, not saying _yes_ to women, and we've already got a word for that

[@aGoodNAZIisaDeadNAZI]

​@@oiytd5wugho on point! ❤

[@ogrecooch]

@@oiytd5wughoso they were just celibate women??

[@crystalrader805]

Men are needed for order and protection? That is absurd. This is a man-made idea for Men to convince of women their importance. Ask yourself, what would a man protect a woman from? The answer is other men.

[@luigigaming2717]

What is the logical conclusion of this? Eliminate males all together? Sorry, dear, but here in reality land males exist, and you need other men to dispatch and get rid of dangerous men. Imagine if women had to convince men of their importance to society like they're some worthless infection ruining society. If you consider this bad, then you'd be a hypocrite.

[@akakac]

Bingooooo

[@akakac]

​@@luigigaming2717ignorant

[@luigigaming2717]

@@akakac bad attempt at an ad hom

[@skillbopster]

LOL you just answered your own question. OK then we will stop protecting you from other men. That means no more laws and men will be free to rape you. So how are you women gunna protect yourselves?

[@ella1125]

My family isnt Korean but watching my own mother suffer made me sort of join the 4b movement. My mother has ALWAYS been the breadwinner. I have watched her raise my siblings and I basically single handedly despite my dad living in the same home. She cooks the dinner most nights, does all the house work, EVERY aspect of child raising, bought all Christmas/birthday gifts all by herself. My father is a lazy piece of shit and not to mention physically abusive. I could never ever put up with what my mother has. My father lays around most days saying he ‘can’t find work’ and yet can’t even be bothered to make a resume

[@basil19262]

I think we all need to take a page out of Iceland's book, where several times over the years women as a group have gone on strike from both paid and unpaid labour. Only for a day unfortunately, but still prompted change in pay equality!

[@zage932]

The pay is equal on the gender spectrum, you're just picking bad job options.

[@alaxb]

Holy shit. This is my favorite work of yours, to date. Not only helped me to shift my perspective of 4B, but also my approach to perceiving, in general. Thank you so much.

[@evildoesnotsleep-x2b]

of course they wouldn't want to bring up a child in these conditions. support for korean women!

[@dl2839]

Population control

[@isunlloaoll]

What about North Korea? They treat women like slaves, yet they have more than 2x the birthrate of the South. Afghanistan has a birthrate almost 6x that of South Korea. The future doesn't look so good.

[@worshipthecomedygodseoeunk4010]

as a korean adoptee, i always thought that koreans gave up their kids because they didnt want them. that they just abandoned us because they didnt value their children at all. obviously, i learned as an adult thats not true. i also thought maybe they just couldn't take care of us, and this is the dominant narrative that still exists today. however, its also not true entirely. after lots of research over the years, both in college and post grad in various korean adoptee forums, discussion groups, events, research panels, etc. i learned one of the most unrecognized reasons why south korea has given up so many kids is because the nuclear family model as the norm means it became womens sole burden to both decide what happens to the child, but also at the same time, it became the reason they lacked agency, as the choice was merely the perception of society, but in reality, that choice rarely existed. it is this contradiction of reality vs societal perception that led to the enabling of children to be sent abroad. a lot of people think that the adoption boom happened after the war, when s. korea was still struggling economically, but that is a huge misconception. in reality, it actually happened during an economic boom, as the country ramped up its capitalist production and industry, children became a precious commodity and the demand for babies in western countries grew after the u.s couple harry and bertha holt had been the first to adopt some. this overt increase in demand could not be fulfilled normally, so there were a lot of campaigns directed towards funding adoption agencies and a push towards building orphanages and temp child facilities. these adoption agencies would become increasingly privatized over the years, and they ended up helping change the orphan law in 1961 so that all children without a "guardian" would be considered orphans and they did not need to confirm any longer whether or not the child actually had living parents. this completely changed the game. this is when the waves of adoption began to happen, and people love to point out the boom in abandonments during the 70s and 80s yet never not fail to mention this fact. now, recently korean adoptees in denmark have been protesting and organizing to probe sk to look into their documents and rectify the illegality of many of their adoptions which were full of completely falsified information. and im pointing this out because this is just an example of the extent to which south korea was willing to push for their children to be expelled from the country historically. this is what contributed directly to mothers lack of agency. vulnerable mothers with no help from the government, being either harrassed and tormented by churches to give up their children, by agencies, by their husbands, by their boyfriends, by hospitals, and even by family members, or have literally had their children stolen from them. and i could go on and on about this topic, but to summarize, looking into the history of adoption in south korea really provides at least one angle in which you can clearly see the imbalance of burden among women vs men. "single mothers" in korean is literally a dirty word itself, because of the widespread contradictions of reality and expectation for women. ive talked to hundreds of korean adoptees who have been reunited, and trust me when i say, it is insanely rare to hear an adoptee say their mother outright rejected them. but patriarchical norms in south korea make it seem like women dont care. its just not true.

[@Miata-gp5bp]

It's true I read an article a while back about the stigma surrounding single mothers in Korea. They are considered a whore or dirty by their own family but what about the father who abandoned them? Who willingly gave sperm to form the baby. It's not one person's fault if a baby happens but somehow the women is always blamed for not taking enough precautions.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

Class warfare and economic disparity is like a tree where the leaves and the roots actively try to kill each other instead of providing for each other.

[@banquetoftheleviathan1404]

Plants defo be fuckin eachother over on some long con type shit and motherfuckers wanna be like "oh nature is so noble" naw bro, that sunflower fuckin hates you

[@raspberrytaegi]

!!!

[@PropheticShadeZ]

Class warfare is required when people on the bottom are unable to peacefully enact change for the better economically Rich people cutting off democratic control of industry through lobbying and corruption made this problem Solutions need to take this pattern into account, i feel like this is inevitable with the market pressures of stakeholder returns

[@trvpyn]

​@@PropheticShadeZ 👏🏾

[@TGP109]

There WILL ALWAYS BE economic disparity and ''class warfare'' isn't inevitable-it's a mindset and ideology as well.

[@existentialbreadroll]

Loved the nuance and loved the cutting through it. Loved it all. I'm walking away from this feeling more responsible for my gaze through the frames of all my identities and also feeling more connected to my humanity than any other identity. Thank you for moving me with your art and the way you frame other people's art. So much respect and love.

[@botanicalitus4194]

Not me finishing the video in 30 minutes because I watched it on 2x speed. On a serious note, this is a good video. As a middle eastern woman who now lives in the US, I really sympathize with the 4B portion of the broader Korean feminist movement. I think even if most women do not participate in it, having it be somewhat prevalent is enough to recontexualize the role of women in the eyes of most people. It will help push the notion that women are under no obligation at all to settle for less than what they want out of life or family. That for a society to convince women to have kids and create families, it has to relent to their demands for complete equality and equal respect. And also just like with any movement that finds a footing online, people who are part of this movement or who support it need to make sure to push back against any reactionary harmful prejudices that try to take root in it. LGBT+ support and rights are important, and proponents of LGBT+ rights and women's rights have been in many cases the same people or great allies to one another. This allyship is what we need more of.

[@MuhammadAlkomy]

Hold on from where in middle east? All you talked about is hated in middle east

[@niamhleeson3522]

@@MuhammadAlkomy Not all people from/in west asia think the same, you know

[@MuhammadAlkomy]

@@niamhleeson3522 I am from that 'West Asia 'and you can count on your hands the number of people that tend to belive in that stuff

[@grey_f98]

I don't think a movement like 4B can exist without transphobia. For such a movement to work, you need to believe in gender essentialism. Not a single aspect of 4B is interested in systematic change, it's only interested in gender/culture war with men as individuals and men as a collective "species." Not a serious movement. I think the portion of Korean feminism that is NOT 4B is doing much better, and I think it's possible to make those spaces less transphobic without diluting the message. I think it's time westerners stop giving 4B the attention it does not deserve. There are far more respectable and practical movements going on and I think it really shows just how terrible western media is because they don't cover those movements, rather they would cover what gets sensationalist clicks: "Koreans as an ethnicity are dying because of these feminists, click for more!" Online trend-based feminism is increasingly getting detached from actual activism-based feminism day by day, and I feel sad so many people are getting their education of feminism from tiktok, twitter and tumblr instead of taking a real gender studies course or reading Bell Hooks or whatever.

[@botanicalitus4194]

@@MuhammadAlkomythats just not true, the people like me who believe these things dont just go around blabbing about it to random people... I have family members who are Igbt and obviously I keep their secret but its not safe to talk about these things openly. Also, everytime someone talks about these things they are accused of being a fake arab or a westernized 🙄

[@AlexAzureOtaku]

I'll tell you this as a women from a different asian country. Experiences of men, women, cis, trans all vary along with cultural context. It doesn't mean multiplicity can't exist under thr same umbrella. I think a lot of us, in an effort to distance ourselves from one aspect of a narrative also isolate ourselves from the movements that benefit us. Complexity should not be sacrificed for the sake of connectivity but one does need to attempt to bring both of those things to the movements we champion or things fall apart quickly just as the metoo movement did during the pandemic Edited for abhorrent spellings.

[@munchiekins]

just what i needed, got a long drive ahead of me. thanks elliot!! ❤

[@munchiekins]

really enjoyed this video, thank you for all the hard work and research you put into it. also, the josh johnson clip was a pleasant surprise 😆

[@Emiliapocalypse]

Oh shoot, I have a 6 hour drive coming up, thanks for reminding me to save this and listen to it tomorrow instead ✌️

[@munchiekins]

@Emiliapocalypse oh man! good luck 6 hours is crazy long 😳

[@awa_de_uwu__-]

proof that bad men hurt everyone, including other men

[@expedition346]

the patriarchy isn’t “bad men” FYI

[@awa_de_uwu__-]

@@expedition346 thanks

[@redactado266]

Bad women also hurt everyone. I think we can generalice this to Say "Bad people hurt everyone"

[@awa_de_uwu__-]

@@redactado266 fax

[@real_chichicherry123]

@@redactado266 don't go "all lives matter" here, get the ratio to know which side affects the other greater.

[@AviKats66]

Not even 2 minutes in and I’m seething at that tweet shown. If women can so easily bond to and sway men with their “feminine traits” then why is there so much domestic abuse committed by men against their female partners? What about men who target and then assault female acquaintances, or even complete strangers? Are these women just not being “feminine” enough and if they tried harder, or just had that magical “feminine” quality then they could make these men stop abusing them, or have other good “real” men step in to protect them? If women had the power to stop men from abusing us by “acting feminine” then we would be using that and abuse rates would be lower. The reality is abuser choose to abuse becuase of their own issues, and trying to paint women as being capable of controlling men and thus men who abuse them is ridiculous and insulting.

[@manuproulx2764]

Finally someone who has common sense!

[@ennuiblue4295]

they blame women, because they can't control themselves.

[@someguy4405]

Women commit around 50% of domestic abuse.

[@Spamhard]

That's sort of the point. The kind of men who make these comments will always blame the women for abuse against them. It's the women's fault for not being feminine or demure enough. If she'd just done as the man said like a good little lady, that stuff never would have happened, a "good woman" would never get hit by a man, she must've done something wrong. Same crowd as "yeah but look at what she was wearing" "she was drunk so its her own fault".

[@atlas956]

i think it’s just especially disgusting that this “convince to bond to” part at least to me implied that the women consent to intimacy/a relationship with this random man just… because then he might choose to make sure that she doesn’t die. not because he might be a decent person or just generally more pleasant than a bear. no, specifically bc this guy imagined himself encountering a random helpless lone woman and thought that this would be a great motivator to force her into what he wants from her. she’s expected to “use her feminine traits” bc that’s an euphemism for “make me be attracted to her so that i deem her worth keeping around”. he doesn’t understand the woman’s perspective, thoughts, or her feelings. they don’t matter to him. he hears “man”, he imagines himself, he hears “woman” and imagines an object that should behave in a way that pleases him, which conveniently just so happens to solve all her needs and feelings as well… life must be simple when you can just invent your own reality for every problem like that.

[@00noenoah]

Came to this video thanks to Jessie Gender recommending you ! This is some quality work you did, so thank you for the enlightement on the 4Bmovement and more genraly the history of women's movement in Korea. I've discovered korean culture now more than 10 years ago and fell in love with the langague, the history of the country and their cinematic work. I went and lived in South Korea for a year with a working holiday. It was 2014 when I lived there, and even knowing that there would be cultural shock for me, it was still hard to realize and accept the problems of the korean society. The divide so big between rich and poors, the treatment of womens and queer people, the racism toward black people, the impossible standards that the young generation has on their shoulders, stucked between the capitalist and modernized system of the country and the traditional values. At the time, I wasn't as much aware as I am now politically, so I didn't know if there was a feminist korean movement and I didn't look into korean women's right history. Later on, after leaving South korea, I heard a little bit about feminist movements organizing there, but didn't take the time to research more.S Same when I started hearing about the 4B movement, I was just glad that south korean women were fighting against the partriarcal korean norms. Anyway all that to just say, again, thank you for this video and making me learn more and have deeper understanding about the 4B and more.

[@thriftymeg]

Huh I’m doing 4b and didn’t even know it. I’m celibate over a decade and I’m a single woman near 40.

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

Ooooh…pushin 40 and no husband huh? My condolences dude, you act all strong and independent now but you’ll be singing a whole different song and dance when you’re like 80

[@thriftymeg]

@@RaidenMustDie3594 I’ll be dead long before 80. My family only lasts to 72.

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

@@thriftymeg oooooh you’re gonna be gettin tinder hookups until you’re 70? Dude that’s abysmally sad, nothing sadder than an old single cougar on a dating app

[@basu_20999]

That's cool actually

[@MakNaasfalti-jh4bg]

We welcome you in incel circle

[@altyrrell3088]

15:35 "raising his children" - aren't the children theirs together? Is that the general Korean attitude toward women's participation in and contribution to the family?

[@lordtette]

similar to men who say he has to "babysit" his children. Men have been taught the woman is the one is the one to rear the child

[@luf.7648]

In Confucian countries like Korea women are traditionally treated as the tool to give the man's family their descendants. It's a man's duty to his ancestors to have a male heir to further the line and a woman is there to give him that heir. Only a man can pass on his family name and ensure the continuation of ancestor worship. So a kid first and foremost belongs to the man's family. Most people won't consciously think like this but it's what underlies the culture.

[@luf.7648]

Also, traditionally women keep their last names in these cultures, so they don't even share a last name with their children. While not really belonging to their birth family anymore after marriage, they are also kind of outsiders in their husband's family which they married into, signified by the different last name.

[@altyrrell3088]

@@luf.7648 I had no idea. Thank you for all of this information.

[@luf.7648]

​​No problem! I am not an expert on contemporary Korean culture by any means, this is just what I know about the historical nuances of Confucian culture by virtue of my field of study being East Asian history (and also having married into an East Asian family). While these cultural aspects can explain the notion of 'raising his children,' at the same time I have no doubt that Korean women love their children as much as women anywhere else, I just want to make that clear in case someone misunderstands. 🙈

[@JhinPortolan]

As a trans dude, hearing the things that some dudes say behind closed doors when theyre "with the bros" has horrified me. When i was still a woman, i stupidly thought that misogyny was "over", or rather, greatly exaggerated. I have since completely changed my mind

[@CorvusIsSilly]

As a (Closeted, for clarification) transfem, I'm honestly very surprised by that It took less than a week of presenting as a woman online to get sexually harassed compared to years of presenting as a man with none

[@igga_hd]

nice try but there's no such thing as "trans dude"

[@mariiinya]

Thank you for this video! As a westerner who's had an interest in korean society and language for years I wish everyone interested in the 4B movement would watch this. The way it has been made into another trend really strips it away from the context it was born in. You've put so much work into the research and I for one appreciate the nuance - as a sociologist I feel like that is all I do as well😂 But it is so important to highlight the shades of grey between black and white especially in the age of growing disrepancies in almost every aspect of society. Also appreciated the point on confucianism - must admit I've fallen victim to the simplification of Asian patriarchism before so it was good to be called out on that! Keep up the amazing work Elliot❤

[@suzygirl1843]

Ironic.

[@mariiinya]

@@suzygirl1843 What do you mean?

[@zainmudassir2964]

Remember gents , wherever you are. Respect Women

[@Iranoutofideasforachannelname]

Yea, no shit, pal

[@minanana6194]

For the first time in history, my country's government talked about the significant decline in the birth rate and marriage rate. Everyone talks about how it has become rare to hear about someone getting married. As always, all the blame is on women. The worst thing is that they are now asking women to stop working and just stay at home to serve their husbands and have children and how our studies and ambitions as women are what have ruined society. While the real reason is the increase in violence against women and the increase in the rate of sexual harassment. Men should behave. We are human beings too and we have rights and a life to live. Marriage is about sharing responsibilities between the husband and wife, not enslaving the wife. Is this something so difficult for men to understand?

[@tarablue4472]

That's a realistic description of marriage, enslavery of the wife. More women need to be aware of this as marriage is all too often romanticized.

[@ecnad]

대박. Brilliant work, Elliot - it's very cool that you got to chat with Hawon Jung about this.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

If I were a woman, I'd pick the bear too. A hairy gay guy with a hefty physique sounds totally friendly.

[@ariej9028]

I’m a woman. I was in the woods with a bear once, it was just chillin I walked away. It didn’t rlly care I was there because it knew I wasn’t going to harm it. I have however been raped by 4 different men starting at 3 ending at 19. Ofc I’d pick the bear

[@nivamv]

@@ariej9028 I'm sorry you went through that. That's absolutely insane. I hope you're in a good place now

[@qj2500]

So tone deaf stfu

[@IamHandsome4u]

​@@ariej9028 nice story but no one will believe u except feminists.

[@ZeroNumerous]

@@ariej9028 That's terrible, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. For me, having been beaten regularly by my mother: Women are horrific monsters too, so I'd pick the bear as well. After all, a bear might not be hungry. But all women are horrible monsters who will hurt me.

[@viridia1526]

The 4b movement exists due to the lack of respect from men, the patriarchal structure of society, not wanting to sacrifice yourself to a man that doesn’t care, staying away from a ‘relationship’ that you’ve seen hurt women around you. Like your mom. There’s other reasons but it’s sad men think it’s just because women don’t want kids.

[@nickyb3800]

Not like we want you anyway. You sound like you'd be a bad influence on children.

[@Flintlock1776]

I think all liberal women should shave their head, wear a blue bracelet, and get a tattoo. This will make it easy to identify the bat-shit crazy from a distance and save us the time and money associated with rejecting them after dinner and a conversation.

[@palomathereptilian]

I've been interested about going deeper with the 4B movement, I already found out there's a small but growing movement inspired on 4B Korean movement here in Brazil... And tbh I think 4B is applicable here, I really hope Brazilian 4B will become a prominent movement here in the next few years

[@palomathereptilian]

As I write this comment, we are dealing with threats from far-right Christian fundamentalist politicians trying to end with the few reproductive rights we have... They literally want to punish LITERAL CHILDREN interrupting pregnancies after getting abused, and getting harsher punishments for it than their adult abusers for abusing them... Yes, you read that right It's so godawfully frustrating, thankfully this enraged most of the population and it seems they are about to give up on continuing with that bill to make abortion a crime in all instances

[@gregvs.theworld451]

Speaking from America here, I straight up think there'd be merit to women (if they felt inclined, their choice obvs) adopting similar ideas here.

[@FrankieWilliams-kx9gp]

Is this the woman equivalent of mgtow, and on a more extreme end the incel movement/phenomenon?

[@gregvs.theworld451]

@@FrankieWilliams-kx9gp Boiled down to it's basic premise maybe? Still, I'd argue the motivation is different, as is the way it's being handled. In my experience a lot of the MGTOW dudes, for the fact they were claiming they were divesting from women, couldn't let women go and would talk ENDLESSLY about how free they were from women, as if they were still not divesting and the perceived sleights against them from women still lived rent free in their heads, and since I know most dudes aren't catcalled, harassed, attacked, or SAed by women, I'm inclined to believe MGTOW and incel ideology stems primarily from misogyny, whereas women at least have more valid consideration for why they'd choose to keep away from men, and I think for most of them that's liberating rather than them staying up at night thinking about men and hoping they're hurt by their absence, and going onto forums to talk about how great being men free is, I think they just... live their lives.

[@olympiaelda1121]

Its nothing like mgtow. We have reasons. Mgtow is just hurt ego.

[@izzizzi]

As a Korean born and raised woman, 4B is not a "movement". It is an overarching air among women, an implicit participation and ultimately, well, natural selection.

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

If you say so, I’ll have you know only very few women are taking part in this “movement” a grand majority of women are living life in harmony with men because they’re not chronically online

[@rmmx77]

@@izzizzi It’s just feminists eliminating themselves out of the gene pool and good riddance. That just leave the sane women who have no problem with men.

[@rmmx77]

@@izzizzi it’s just means man haters and feminists eliminating themselves from the gene pool and I’m here for it. Which means only sane women who love men and men will reproduce which means this issue will correct itself. 👍

[@ryanvenjoyer]

Darwinists are gonna love this, same with N. Korea with their higher birth rate.

[@TimelessErsy]

Good for you all❤

[@mehakverma7043]

That sign "Don't worry mother, your daughter is a soldier" literally brought a tear to my eye.

[@nullbyt]

Where do I opt out of society

[@manwhoismissingtwotoenails4811]

Mongolia

[@wickedarctiinae4132]

You "are" society. You carry society with you. Even if you were to start all over again in a desert island/continent, you replicate what you have.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

@@broidkanymore-zc4lt "Screw you! -- I'm gonna go play Minecraft!"

[@mattdombrowski8435]

You can't opt out per se, but you can minimize. Think about where in your life you interact with people and see what you can do to reduce that. You can change your job to one that doesn't deal with the public or coworkers much (if you can, I'd recommend one that involves a hazardous environment. Nothing keeps people away like "Danger. Radioactive."). You can step back from social media and internet forums etc. You can avoid the news and, more broadly, non-fiction and focus on other worlds. You can distance yourself from your friends and your family. There are also more... let's say violent... ways to do this, but I wouldn't recommend them. My advice would be to take some time to really examine your life. Figure out where exactly the pain is coming from and taking the steps necessary to mitigate that. It is possible to live a meaningful life primarily through your work if you find purpose in that. Perhaps only having a few close friends or maybe just Ma and Pa. A common disease in the modern world is the tendency to think in terms of all or nothing. Very rarely is the solution to a problem to do all or nothing. Usually the way forward is to either pull back to something reasonable or bump something up a bit. Thank you for reading my mini-essay. I hope I was able to provide some perspective.

[@banquetoftheleviathan1404]

Isn't that what the internet is? Or just stop going out. They don't play techno anymore anyway

[@Bennie_x]

Men call it misandry when u show them stats and accurately describe the way they treat women

[@massimilianomencacci2510]

You show only your opinion, generally speaking.

[@PebblesFromOuterSpace]

So real, they hate what they see when you hold up a mirror to them

[@SemekiIzuio]

I hate that women and men are fighting among each other when the real blame should pointed at the people in power who refuse to do good and continue to manipulate and greed everything they touch

[@suzygirl1843]

What did you expect? USA and the West in general is a war mongerer. It was bound to end this way.

[@dulcecaramel]

I mean the blame can be pointed on the, and rightfully so, sure. But they by no means hold all of the blame, misogyny existed before capitalism and its not Jeff Bezos fauIt that me and everywoman I know has experienced DV and SA at the hands ofmen

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

I know it’s almost as if the immature incels, and femcels are using these “causes” to just hate people online

[@Commielover69]

1 good comment

[@aGoodNAZIisaDeadNAZI]

The "people in power" are mostly "men", always has been that way. If there are any women, they are most likely patriarchal too.

[@amfq]

1 view in 1 minute… can’t believe you’ve fallen off on such a highly anticipated video 🧘🏽‍♀️

[@Krystalized_Python]

I know right? So sad, so sad 😢😂

[@mina_on_air]

Well, as a Korean woman who chose to leave Korea due to the exact reasons narrated in this video, I had to hit the subscription button. I deeply appreciate how you delineate the issue that women have been screaming for years while 'some' men just do not see where it's coming from in Korea.

[@youforget1000thingsaday]

Y'all ready? ❤ #4BMovement is here to stay!

[@hamzah_amin]

It is absolutely not. 😂

[@LoreEclectic]

My sisters and have all agreed to join the 4b movement 😊 No more kids until we have medical autonomy

[@hamzah_amin]

@@LoreEclectic Sad.

[@LoreEclectic]

@@hamzah_amin No man is entitled to my time, money, attention, or body. Child free with disposable income. I've never been happier lol

[@hamzah_amin]

⁠@@LoreEclecticYou’re right, no man is entitled to your body. Whatever is working best for you. Just genuinely hope being lonely keeps you happy into old age.

[@genocider9782]

the 4b movement is actually really cool, I hope korean women do get treated better eventually and I think more countries should have similar movements

[@droopscoobtypooty]

does your username have to do with why you think it's cool lmao

[@genocider9782]

@@droopscoobtypooty username and pfp too :)

[@simonsnowlock5937]

closing statements hit so hard, Elliot! 👏 And i love Kimsooja's work you showed, so thank you for showing it to us!

[@snekysnek-qe5pm]

I just realized 4b movement is going to be easy for me as a lesbian. But I worry about the straight girls doing this. It's hard for them.

[@annmarieknapp]

Doesn't bother me in least. Happily 4B.

[@Neo-jty]

good luck then, lesbian divorce rate and DV rate are highest, and gay couples have lowest divorce rate and DV rate, that tells you a lot about differences between men and women

[@becnimi]

Lesbian win

[@Neo-jty]

@@becnimi lesbians have highest divorce rate and DV rate btw

[@grantmiller7257]

4B requires abstinence... that includes lesbianism. Also there is a lot of homophobia in the movement as presented.

[@detektiveconanfreak]

Your video essays are always a joy to watch and this one especially! I don't know if people who are not korean or have not studied korean social history at an academic level will understand the level of research you put into this. A lot of the sources you cited are books we used in various courses of my masters program or have come up in guest lectures and research for term papers. It's really rare these days to see a differentiated look at such a polarizing topic as the 4B movement and I really think this video can contribute a lot of nuance to the international perspective on it.

[@gwyn2151]

Thanks for covering this Elliot. I have been very interested in the 4b movement for a while now, but it's hard to find information that isn't biased to the western point of view. As a feminist it's very important to me to see feminism in its many forms around the word and to understand the unique and universal struggles that women have. To me celibacy and anti-marriage movements have been an integral part of many feminist movements around the world, but they are difficult because they often can fall into the moral or cis-centered discorce that will ultimately derail the movement. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in S Korea.

[@GearZNet]

tl;dr The future belongs to those who show up for it. It plays out like this: People who don't have children die and take their ideas with them. Ideas that promote or are heavily aligned with populations that don't reproduce at replacement levels dwindle into irrelevance and get referred to as a failed cult/fad &or their books get burned so as not to infect the remaining populace.

[@rmmx77]

@@gwyn2151 4B is a very small movement in Korea filled with leftover women who aren’t even desirable to men regardless. Mostly Korean men see it as sour grapes since these women aren’t able to attract men anymore. Most men here are picking up their passports and going to other countries to date women. Mainly the Philippines, Vietnam and multiple Latin American countries.

[@enhancedutility266]

It's a pretty small movement South Korea was already facing population decline and birth decline way before this movement even started most men in South Korea have checked out decades ago so for them not getting sex from you their own women isn't really a flex sense they've been celibate for decades and some have already left the country to get married elsewhere and start up families in countries like Vietnam

[@skullkid64mm]

@@rmmx77bullshit it’s bigger than that. And tell me you’re an incel without telling me you’re incel by using one china’s propaganda lingo by calling them leftover women when there’s more men than women in China meaning men are the leftovers

[@TimelessErsy]

​@rmmx77 Nice try😂😂😂 Korean harsh beauty standards, colorism, racism and xenophobia against other Asians especially darker skin southeast Asians does not allow them to date out. They prefer white women or fairer skin Asians like Chinese or Japanese women! That was a nice attempt though at promoting passport bro BS😂😂😂 Also it's women between 18-35 opting out of marriage too!!!!

[@eljofrva]

Many Americans fail to realize that the age of consent in the United States has an average of 16 years old. These laws vary from state to state. In some states the age of consent is 14 or 15 and in some states, the age of consent is closer to 17 or 18. So before we point our fingers at other countries, we need to realize what’s going on in our own country!

[@tansbizarreadventure]

OMG you talked to hawon jung ! i read her book last year this is so cool ! just finished but my god this was really good, i love how you gave a breakdown of why korea is that way because that truly shows us how women in korea navigate life . also shout out you for this in depth video essay! this is definitely one of my favorites from you

[@lordtette]

43:14 The woman vs the bear thing reminds me of the horror movie were a group of women are being hunted in the woods by a group of men hunting who tried to assault them. And as the guy said they're doing this cause there aren't any witnesses. They were away from the docks where people were fishing and it a little island

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

It also reminds me of this murder case where a woman stabbed a man 60 times in the chest under the influence of marijuana, but the judge let her off Scott free because she “was not in her rational mind” or something

[@LivVirtual]

there was an actual serial killer who did something like that. he kidnapped, violated, and murdered AT LEAST seventeen women, many of whom he would release into the alaskan wilderness so he could chase them down like game animals before ending their lives. he evaded arrest for a good while because the police didn't believe the testimony of the one girl who'd managed to escape him.

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

@@LivVirtual is that supposed to convince that men are worse and more evil than women or something? My point was that women are human and can be evil too but yall want to sweep that shit under the rug

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

@@LivVirtual OH OH WAIT AND you women fall in love for guys who murder and do awful things to women, when yall see a mugshot of a dude who killed his two girlfriends yall go head over heels for him, yall write him love letters talking bout “I can fix him” yall won’t stop talking about “I choose the bear 💅✨” but yall get wetter than water world when you see a serial killer

[@LivVirtual]

@@RaidenMustDie3594💀💀 okayyyyy then what about the men who want lady dimitrescu to step on them yk, i originaly DIDN'T choose the bear in that scenario. but after witnessing the hostility with which so many men reacted to women who DID choose the bear over them, i changed my mind. because i don't really expect a bear to have morals or principles or self-control or anything like that, so if a bear does attack me, i'll at least die knowing that there wasn't any basic human decency for me to appeal to. it saves myself the additional pain of disappointment, eh? i'm not entirely sure why you would bring up the women who become infatuated with serial killers? bc afaik, there weren't any who were thirsting after the guy that i described in my previous comment. but to provide continuity for YOUR previous comment: there have also been cases where men who committed murder were allowed to walk away free due to not being in their right mind. it's called the "insanity defense." i recall one such instance of the insanity plea being successfully used by a man about two years ago. he was an american from the state of florida iirc, and in 2016, he murdered an older couple for no apparent reason. he was fpimd chewing on the face of one of the bodies. anyways, two years ago, this man pleaded insanity. his plea was accepted by a judge, and he has now been committed to a mental health facility. would you like another example of the insanity defense being used?

[@pocketraccoons]

"If she used her feminine traits. He would hunt, build and protect" is so funny to me because it implies that if she didn't he would not do these things which is exactly the point.

[@computer1-hc1qn]

In a traditional relationship between men and women on a societal level, each carries out a role. It does not make much sense for one to carry out its role if the other does not carry out theirs.

[@pocketraccoons]

@computer1-hc1qn Skipping over the fact that you're implying that the only role of a woman is to sexually satisfy the man. People carry different roles in a relationship regardless of gender. Reality is more complex than that.

[@computer1-hc1qn]

​@@pocketraccoons i dont believe women should be forced to sexually satisfy men, to be clear. i was simply stating that if a woman does not engage in her traditional feminine role, it is strange to expect a man to do his, which is what i though you were saying when you say that "if she didn't he would not do these things which is exactly the point."

[@itsmaddiebee]

@@computer1-hc1qn No, she’s saying that anyone’s ability to be a hunter (which has since been gendered as a “man’s” job) was dependent on anyone’s ability to be a gatherer (which has since been gendered as a “woman’s” job). Ursula K. Le Guin’s “Carrier Bag Theory of Fiction,” which includes the line “Sixty-five percent of what human beings ate in those regions in Paleolithic, Neolithic, and prehistoric times was gathered; only in the extreme Arctic was meat the staple food,” expresses this perfectly.

[@computer1-hc1qn]

@@itsmaddiebee pretty sure it wasnt only the extreme arctic where most of the caloric intake was meat. It was the savanna and more tropical areas where this was the case.

[@dificulttocure]

I mean, it's fair. People are free to date or not date however and whoever they please. And if men can have a mgtow movement, then it's only fair women have one too. I don't mind it.

[@Hispanocel]

MGTOW is cope, we aren't leaving, we are being SENT our own way

[@definitelynotcole]

Great point.

[@dificulttocure]

​@@Madamoizillion What rights do Korean women lack? From what I understand, the 4b movement is about refusing to date, marry or have sex with men. It's essentially the same as mgtow. You can argue that they do this so men notice the importance of women in society and change their expectations towards them. But then, the same could be said about the mgtow movement. I don't really see any significant difference.

[@MachFiveFalcon]

North Korea's birthrate is currently at 1.81, higher than that of the US which is 1.66, and declining much more slowly than South Korea's which is currently at 0.81. Damn.

[@why7654]

Wait where did you get that info? Since most news coming from that country are hard to know if they are even real

[@MachFiveFalcon]

@@why7654 The data I found was from World Bank Group. I'm not sure exactly how they get their data on North Korea.

[@IamHandsome4u]

​​@@why7654 i mean, if the data was showing NK in a negative light, i'm pretty sure u would believe it without a 2nd thought, but u couldnt believe them in a positive light right?cuz NK= bad and western countries= good.🤦‍♂️

[@roa3432]

​@@why7654 For more information about North Korea, check out the documentaries "My Brother and Sisters in the North," "Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul" and the deleted DW documentary "Life in North Korea." The channel "Zoe Discovers" has a lot of information too.

[@enhancedutility266]

Yeah they're just going to move in for the kill in China and Russia will back them up It's sad to see as well that means that the coalition of the UN soldiers who sacrificed their lives to keep South Korea free from communism will now have their lives in vain

[@user-rg8bq5jg4m]

The 4b movement just seems like a smarter, easier way to live life. You don't have to waste time and money on dates and birth control, and you're safer single.

[@Junosensei]

Thank you for this moderate exploration of the 2B movement. A lot of my prior knowledge has largely been online articles from news coverage Asia or Korea broadly, but like most news, they tend to treat the subject from an "objective" distanced lens rather than discussing in depth the more personal aspects of it. My major in college (10 years ago now... wow) was Asian Studies and long before I realized I was a trans woman, I spent a lot of time in gender and women's studies classes, so I've been broadly interested in feminism in Korea, Japan (especially Japan), and China. Sadly, I remain pretty ignorant of other Asian feminist movements, like in Vietnam or Taiwan, for instance. There is a whole lot more to the story than the broad strokes you painted, but I think you summed up what I know and even more in a pretty time-efficient manner. Enough for me to recommend to friends, at least. I think it's important to recognize that even Western feminism has had its historical and contemporary hiccups (to put it lightly) and its similarly essentialist phases as well. The suffragette movement had a huge problem with internal racism excluding black women especially, and prominent 2nd and 3rd wave feminists have also pushed extremely questionable anti-men sentiment, often splitting feminists into groups and excluding either queer women (thinking butch lesbians are a sort of "men-lite", obviously excluding trans women, and also trans men--who are still an essential part of the feminist movement, etc.).

[@droopscoobtypooty]

wait 2b like the character??

[@rajpalbhatia1715]

I just feel sad for the women in south korea who have to go through so much 💔 and women all over world

[@suzygirl1843]

Women all over the world? This is just First World countries, Dude. You people screwed yourselves up. Africa is predicted to have a population BOOM as they have the youngest population in the world, no Feminism, no Manosphere nonsense. Just Godly people who are gonna take their rightful place once you've taken yourselves out. God is definitely smiling down on us. Bye

[@Blondie_Lockes]

​@@suzygirl1843as if women in Africa aren't victims of abuse and crimes aswell due to their gender . It may be less but it definitely exists.

[@sunshoe-l5r]

why would you be sad for them when society is rigged in favor of women anyways.

[@Her844]

Always support 4B movement ❤❤ We want justice!!

[@blucantrell2]

people are taking a look around and realizing that any child they have doesn't stand much of a chance under this new libertarian social order. Why play a game you can't win? And so, they just decide to enjoy the little life they have rather than creating a generation destined to be the mudsill for the inheritance classes.

[@TGP109]

''Libertarian social order''? You must mean ''individualistic'' because there isn't much Libertarianism going on.

[@uchegbudivine6885]

Finally someone that watched the whole video

[@expedition346]

@TGP109 “new libertarian” is probably a mistranslation of “neoliberal”

[@Beforeigo-x9v]

bingo. if i have a kid in the west i gotta be careful of the community schools educating them slop. the kids in the schools showing them gore videos. the goverment doing as they please with them. and they cant play outside because of the increasing unsafety rising up from worldwide migration problems.

[@Miata-gp5bp]

You're saying it like south Korean government officials aren't massive conservatives 🙄 plus educate yourself

[@lunavvoods]

4B now from the US

[@hamzah_amin]

Embarrassed for you.

[@itspiglet9783]

Yep!

[@JosephRowson-j4j]

People are gonna forget it quick. It’s just because of the loss of Kamala Harris.

[@lunavvoods]

@@JosephRowson-j4j look at south korea, nobody is forgetting about it

[@indiascott8044]

@@JosephRowson-j4j no, it's not just because of the election. dating apps constantly turn into hookup apps because men cant separate seggs from connection. it's almost always a requirement for them to "explore" compatibility. it's all BS.

[@pipperoni8567]

hey, if you're going to make such a point about saying that this is a "trend vs. movement" then you should really provide definitions, social movement theory is very alive and well and there are plenty of definitions to draw from- or you can make your own if you want to

[@scarletsletter4466]

😂 Where has this channel been all my life? As an exec for a multinational conglomerate who’s visited our corporate offices all across Asia, there’s no doubt that misogyny is rampant. It’s so entrenched in day-to-day life that it’s almost impossible for us to combat it in the workplace by using HR. For example, women are socialized to be docile (for lack of a better term) so it’s hard to get them to advocate for themselves even when we put in place systems to support them

[@vrubin]

at first I thought the women who don’t wanna date men would just date other women instead.. til I heard the homophobic part of the story 😔

[@annmarieknapp]

It's comical that men just automatically think about schmeggs and who will women "be with.". Sure some women will, but for the most part, women are just done with romance and intimate relationships in general. It's about freedom,not sehx.

[@vanillavania.]

But why would the assumption be that they “date other women instead”? Why can’t they just be free of all forms of romantic relationships if they so please?

[@unknownunknown5822]

Romance is practically a patriarchal construction. Lesbian relationships themselves last shorter than gay ones, women can handle "being single" while men shrivel to dust if they're not a parasite to someone.

[@tiahnarodriguez3809]

@@vanillavania. Cuz they focus on sex too much. It’s mostly straight women, but also male attracted bi women who are choosing not to date men. I not sure why think straight women can magically turn bi or gay just cuz they don’t want to date men when it doesn’t work like that. At the end of the day they are still straight, and aren’t going to be attracted to women.

[@runningoutoftime7065]

@@vanillavania.because women naturally tend to default to other women when they have failed to keep the men they want

[@AnneLives81]

This was such this was such a good essay. Showing the intersectionality and connection between so many struggles. I especially loved the call to action at the end to truly connect and see the humanity in each other. There's so much truth to the idea that no one is free until we all are. I was honestly feeling helpless with some of the recent SCOTUS decisions regarding criminalizing homelessness and rolling back federal consumer protectionss, as well as NYC and LA floating potential mask bans. Your essay just knocked some sense into me. Just knowing people do care and want a better world. I needed the reminder.

[@afasys]

25:08 Although I agree Confucianism isn't the sole root cause of every East Asian value, I think it's important not to understate how much influence Confucianism had on China and Korea. Nearly all education was based on Confucianism because the civil service examinations of China and Korea were heavily based on the memorization of Chinese classics, in which Confucianism is a major theme. Since these civil service examinations were the only way someone could escape a lower class or maintain their current class, it was the most influential event of someone's life. Due to the importance of the examination, the importance of being educated in Confucianism was paramount. Additionally, these civil service exams were administered all the way up to the late 19th century, and therefore maintained a significant cultural presence in China and Korea. This is in stark contrast to Greek philosophy of the west; although it was consistently studied throughout history, someone's proficiency in memorizing it never determined their entire life and career.

[@worldadventuretravel]

Pros & cons: This is a really well thought-out, comprehensive look at some of the larger themes that turned 4B into a trend as well as a nice info dump on Korean history that most of us educated in the ethnocentric west would never know. You also included thought-provoking critique of the resistance to intersectionality in various movements against oppression. That being said, I do have one criticism, and that is the obfuscation of the very justified and valid reasons that straight women all over the world, whether they call themselves "4B" or not, ARE in fact opting out of becoming intimately involved and/or partnering with men. There is a boatload of data about how women's health, incomes, and overall quality of life spirals straight into hell when they are stuck in cis-het partnerships with men-- along with corresponding data about how men overwhelmingly benefit from these same partnerships due to having their entire lives supported by women's free labor. The reason for the gender divide and why it has reached a tipping point is because capitalism and patriarchy (two sides of the same evil hand) have now revealed for decades that women's interests and men's interests are directly at odds with one another. Women want to protect their safety, peace, autonomy, financial security, and overall health at all costs, which necessitates opting out of being with men. Men on the other hand are interested in dominating, controlling, subjugating, and preserving the existing system to their benefit at the exclusion of women's overall happiness and wellbeing-- and worse, if they can't get it, they seek to destroy, torture, punish, and make women suffer. This is the definition of "irreconcilable differences" and @Elliot Sang, it deserves its own follow-up video. Thanks for reading!

[@Farencio]

I understand where you at getting at, but at the same time I can't see how the movement can be emancipatory at it's fullest when the outing of heterosexual relationships in itself only appear substantial in an individual level but doesn't approach more systemic issues. i'm not heterosexual, I'm bi and I don't engage anymore in relationships with heteros. The reasons are many: usually heteros are narrow minded, discriminatory, oblivious. I'm mentally ill, bipolar type 2, I don't usually date neurotypicals. The same reasons. I don't find these type of acts revolutionary or useful as the only political mediums towards real and radical emancipation, real autonomy or revolution. I think that the most effective times I had politically where in the revolt of 2019 in my country (Chile). I got united with a diverse cast of people: feminists, anarchists, communists, non-affiliated, the educated, the non-educated, the politically engaged and the recently inserted in the middle of a Mad Max movie. The realization that I had is that when people got that we aren't essentially different we have pretty similar goals. It would sorprise you the quantity of men, even hetero men, that wants safety, peace, autonomy, financial security and overall health at all costs. (TA warning) You even be surprised how many men had been SA. That poor, mentally ill, non-hetero, AMAB aren't that different from a non-hetero, afab, mentally ill, poor woman. Men when demonstrate emotions besides anger are seen as childish, and if they're mentally ill is worse. Similarly as women that are mentally ill that are seen as nagging, hysterics. The mentally ill are seen as childs, and in these times children are seen as property and less than human. A friend that I met in a psych ward, who has bipolar type 1, was cancelled because in a football match in a university was manic and talking to a girl; even if he didn't say nothing aggresive it was deemed violent. A student in his career told me of this event, talking against him. That's the account of events: he was being loud, was taken as aggressive. I regret not defending him in that times, I wish I could apologize. Being manic and that type of loudness, the erratic behavior, isn't something you can't control. Controlling that is like expecting that a person with narcolepsy won't get sleepy. Is really frustrating. Perhaps is my perception but sometimes in the discourse of white feminists is a patent ableist tendency where autistic, bpd, npd, bipolar non-afab are pathologized. Not in the same gravity as in the XIX where women where treated as histerical, but is a similar critique that I have of the typical old marxist/anarquist that view women in the movement as a distraction towards proletarian revolution.

[@sonnentausnest]

@@Farencio I feel similarly. Tbh, the feminism that was popular here (central Europe) in my youth, was very much what today is sometimes called "white feminism". Its aim was to get more women to have successful careers in big companies. I'm neurodivergent and disabled, it didn't speak to me. Once I learned about intersectional feminism, that was when I started to get more interested and involved. I happen to be aromantic asexual, so I'm not interested in dating anyway, but yeah. That's not political in my case. I hope people find the personal connections that are safe and fulfilling for themselves, how and wherever they find them.

[@albaniaalban]

While I agree with you that men are the underlying cause of most undue harm to women and your analysis of driving forces (such as how 'safety' is a much more important consideration for women), I do think that this way of thinking does not entirely take into account intersectional aspects. If a white woman wants safety by exiling all black men, is that at odds with men's desire to preserve power structures? If a western woman wishes to ensure her financial security by preserving financial slavery in other countries, is that taking a stance against men's financial hold over women? I think it's important to acknowledge that while men are ultimately the ones in power and responsible for most of the ills, the patriarchy is upheld by dividing and pitting against each other anyone who could threaten the status quo. Your arguments that men seek to destroy, torture, and make women suffer may be true, but one must be vigilant lest one falls too close to the thinking of Browbmiller of Firestone: that black men, given that male supremacy is beyond their reach, must resort to sexual violence - as discussed by Davis in "Women, Race, and Class". Of course, both Wallace ("Black Macho[...]") and bell hooks ("Ain't I a woman") have analysed the patriarchal sexism in the black liberation movement, and similarly the racism in the women's liberation movement - making it clear that men, no matter their position in society, do attempt to establish and uphold patriarchal structures, so... As an aside, I'm curious about the boatload of evidence suggesting being married is actively detrimental to (women's) health and well-being. I don't doubt it, given that (as an example) womenspend between 60-100% more time on childcare per day (American Time Use Survey, 2023), but from what I've read people in romantic relationships generally report higher well-being than their single counterparts (Lee and Ono, 2007, "Marriage, Cohabitation, and Happiness: A Cross-National Analysis of 27 Countries"; Davern et al, General Social Survey 1972-2024).

[@Farencio]

@@albaniaalban I would like to add to the example of black men upholding patriarchal modalities of structure, behaviour and ideology with another example. When the 9/11 occurred a lot of white LGBTQ+ people began to mix their white and 1st world citizen identities with queer politics. Puar named this phenomenon "homonationalism", specially because was prevalent in cis-male gay people. This attitudes and politics weren't specifically taken because they were evil or inherently corrupt but as means to adapt to an hostile environment that marginalized them, and view in muslim culture an even more pressed evil (a short sighted perspective). Even if men have the identity that makes them have a propensity to dominate, torture and exploit women isn't because they desire it but because they don't see another way to survive or live. People go to the supermarket, buy chicken and such even if the meat industry is a place of torture and extreme exploitation of non-human animals because they can't imagine or conceived a world without these structures. Sometimes, specially in the past, farmer traditional women had the capacity of been even more mysoginistic than their husbands because any action contrary to the norm was punished and shunned. My grandmother was that way, from extreme poverty, and even if my mom went to be a lawyer and have money she had to maintain and support my uncle and his family, her half brother product of the infidelity of my grandfather, etcetera. I'm more severe with these actions of my grandmother than my mom, she saw the contexts that perpetuated and encouraged these actions. Wasn't born out of malice but in order to survive and adapt. I'm not saying that you have to be apologetic with evil actions but try to understand why they were made to stop and prevent the causes of exploitation and the mechanisms of it. At the end we can see that the more transphobic, ableist and classist sections of the Korean 4b have conceptual and practical resemblance to mysoginistic power mechanisms. They can't see a world for women to be safe without the exploitation and domination of trans people, the disabled or the poor. Logics of marginalisation. that's why even if have my problems -sometimes severe- with heterosexuals, the bourgeoise, the neurotipicals, etcetera, I don't resent but at the same time I don't will be apologetic and take shit for nothing. Let's try to be critical without being selfcongratulatory to the point of obliviousness.

[@tatamigalaxy-i5r]

1) There was never a better time in history to be a woman. You are literally outperforming men in a lot of areas already (e.g. school and college). 2) Marriage increases life expectancy for both men and women: (Google: "Life expectancy and active life expectancy by marital status among older U.S. adults: Results from the U.S. Medicare Health Outcome Survey (HOS)") 3) A famous source (that everyone cites) claiming women are miserable in marriages got debunked: (Google Vox article: "A new book says married women are miserable. Don’t believe it.") 4) You got radicalized on the internet. This is not real life: "Men on the other hand are interested in dominating, controlling, subjugating, and preserving the existing system to their benefit at the exclusion of women's overall happiness and wellbeing-- and worse". This is not how men operate, they are not interested in doing any subjugation. Most men are sick and tired of this image of masculinity. You just don't understand that we literally force men to behave like this (and "we" includes women), to be dominant and emotionless. Seeing your comment, I can guarantee that women like you are one of the main reasons men are the way they are. You probably have 0 empathy for them - which is pretty normal in our society, so don't take it as a personal attack. 5) You are literally the female equivalent of an incel. An overintellectualized and overeducated incel, with a lot of discursive power. But you are an incel nontheless. Touch grass, go outside, actually talk to guys, and you will see that 99% of them don't fit this caricature. The issue is social media: you are in a femcel bubble, and you are simultaneously confronted with the "evil" behavior of men. This is literally the same reason why the men that you describe are hateful towards women. Nowadays everyone can read the unfiltered views of other groups, and this leads to polarization and hatred (Google: The Conversation - "Is social media fuelling political polarisation"). Why should any guy care about women's rights if they see views like yours? You clearly hate men, even if you haven't met 'em. I think everyone should respect each other, but you are 50 % of the problem (not 80 %, but also not 20 %). The men you are describing are living in the same digital environments. They also read comments like yours (and much worse comments). Femcels and incels amplify their hatred towards each other.

[@solarmoth4628]

I’ve been really curious about this. I wanted hear more about Korean feminists perspective on the topic, Hawon’s insight helped to contextualize how the 4B movement fits into Korea’s larger feminist movement.

[@deeplyjuniper]

A fellow Josh Johnson enjoyer! Nice to see him make an appearance

[@cfromnowhere]

50:18 I know what you are trying to say here. The problem with that symbol is that it builds on the social expectation of masculinity in which a man's genitalia defines his dating potential and "manliness" in general. As feminists, they should be aware that such a definition of masculinity is strongly associated with the reason they find men intolerable as partners - at the basic level, the two are the same thing. In other words, they reinforce toxic masculinity rather than challenging it. You may think, well, are they trying to piss off men because this is the signal men can understand? This does not make sense either, because almost everything on this board is women preaching to the choir; it was not expected to be seen by others at all. Also, a major reason young men become incels is that they are frustrated about meeting traditional milestones of being a man, thus the "every man deserves a woman" thing. So this signal is not intended to be seen by men at all. It surely wouldn't go anywhere; as Audre Lorde said, the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. On the inseparability of gender and class, South Korea has a unique (or it is actually not that unique, just more obvious) element: the dangerous dominance of Chaebol, which is the major cause of socioeconomic inequality in South Korea, is a part of South Korea's wartime measure. The Korean War never officially ended and that is why Chaebol is allowed to control almost everything in the country despite serious harm. It finally boils down to history and international politics.

[@oanaion4899]

I left men alone at the age of 16 on the day when I found out how my grandma that helped raise me REALLY passed away. I have been avoiding males like the plague and will never legally bind myself to one of them or even get romantically attached.

[@Lioness_Es]

I don't blame you love. 💝

[@oanaion4899]

@@Lioness_Es 💙💙💙

[@someyoungguyjohnson7239]

You go girl, I hear you ROAR.

[@oanaion4899]

@@someyoungguyjohnson7239 I don't feed trolls 🤣🤣🤣 move along or get blocked.

[@goliathtigerfishes]

I started participating in this months ago, and I feel so free from the stres of relationships. It's going great and my friends are so supportive!

[@deannevictor536]

This was a wonderful companion piece to Rotten Mango's two video series on the Nth rooms.

[@JDSeaside]

The revenant was 9 years ago?!

[@andreaslind6338]

Yes time flies, but 2 of those were under lockdown

[@SamTheMan666]

Pikachu face.

[@atuvera9021]

Ikr, it felt like yesterday. Dude, we are getting old af

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

* Rapidly aging meme *

[@mikefletcher7181]

I learned today there was a Despicable Me PS2 game :(

[@LangSmith.]

Your videos feature nuances no doubt, but I’m so thankful of how considerate and open they are. It invites me to think on a deeper level about the world as a whole, especially when I exist in a Western influenced bubble. Feminism cannot succeed without intersectionality, and I root for Korea and the world as a whole to embrace it and the activists that are fighting for it now.

[@wtheckJackie]

This was amazing! What a feat of scholarship and thoughtfulness and care for others. Thank you for creating this, Elliot.

[@Kuejena]

I appreciate you bringing more information and clarity on this topic, and I like being able to learn. I have an issue, however, with the narrative of "people don't care about the nuances" when more likely they just don't know. They hear about a movement they relate to and want to rally behind it because they relate to it. I think assuming they don't care about the nuances when more likely they just don't know, sifting through a ton of information all the time online is hard as it is, is also harmful. A good response is to point out what they're missing and try to get more accurate info out there. It's not so much they're not looking at the information, as much as they just don't know there's extra information to be had. Gauging volume of movements/trends in other countries is difficult when I'm relying on news outlets or social media, because it's usually presented as big regardless. It feels almost like there's this "women's pain is actually worse in Korea" or "patriarchy is worse here" but that seems unproductive. Pain is not a contest. Perhaps it is the worst in Korea, it doesn't change the fact that the patriarchy is still bad in the US, that gender roles are still expected of women here, that women are feeling similar pressures. That doesn't mean we're not allowed to complain. And while I don't think that's what you're saying, I'm more presenting this as why women outside of Korea picked up on 4B and wanted to show solidarity with it, even if they were misguided. I think learning about what's happening in other countries is a good thing, it keeps us informed. But finding all the information is difficult because we don't have all the context, or know that there is extra context to begin with. I think the mindset of "they don't care to research" just isn't true. Maybe in some small way, but I truly do not think it's helpful or productive to view this response in that light. I think it's harmful, and discourages people to even try to look into foreign topics/news/etc. That being said, their response to being corrected is always on them, and we should always do our best to accept being wrong. That being said, you'll probably never see this and may not like it. But I still love your video and love how straightforward and informative it is. I learned a lot about something I knew little of with context and scale, and I appreciate that. Thank you.

[@Belihoney]

I think this would have been a possible take if there wasn’t a ton of push back to women who actually lived in Korea saying that 4b isn’t actually a big thing. Rather than reassessing what they know they called the girls, who actually live there… pick mes…