Engage Maddening Character Guide 2.0!

[@actuallizard]

Correction: Vantage is 25% at first level not 50%!

[@LoudWaffle]

I think Etie should be higher, especially higher than Alcryst. They could be swapped, but I think more appropriately she could belong in "Good, Specific Build" tier. Mekkah and Scepti recently did a video covering Etie as a unit, and they go very in-depth into her as compared to Alcryst. The big calculation that I remember from it is that even when Alcryst procs Luna, he ONLY matches Etie's standard amount of damage because her strength is so high. Meaning Etie deals the same damage every turn that Alcryst relies on a %proc to reach. She is also a shoe-in for becoming a warrior ASAP, as it gives her everything she needs: chain attacks, strength, and build. She's lacking in speed compared to him, but this is the easiest stat to fix up in Engage thanks to Lyn. Obviously everyone doubles with the Lyn ring, but even if you just inherit the Speed+ skills and give her a tonic, she'll have enough speed to double what she needs to. Meanwhile Alcryst has to increase both his speed and strength to really compete, which is a taller order. She's still only an unga-bunga unit with a bow, so I'm not saying she's top-tier. But she does that job very well and the distribution of fliers through the game means she'll always have something to contribute. If she gets dropped in/around the lategame, it wouldn't be for anyone below "Good, Specific Build," or even most of the people in there (except Fogado simply because they're similar as bow units).

[@McKayla24798]

i am watching this so i know exactly how not to build my characters. i am strongly dedicated to making my character builds as gross as possible while still winning. i have a trained hitman watching me at all times in case i ever make another vantage-wrath panette.

[@actuallizard]

Sage Favorite food bunet incoming

[@banriswirl6414]

Okay hear me out. Fuck vantage/wrath. Reclass to Paladin; give tomahawk, brave axe, filler axe; give Lyn ring (or any ring that boosts speed) Paladin Panette is actually super good, benefits from cavalry Lucina, looks bloody amazing in that armour, and has high move.

[@jierdareisa4313]

High priest Anna with HP/Luck +10, Luck +12 and Bond 20 Byleth has 73 luck... just saying

[@genkikio4543]

Something is making me feel that Lizard really likes the Warrior class.

[@carloluis174]

its the best class in the game in a lot of peoples eyes.

[@actuallizard]

I love me some vantage wrath and I love me some radiant bow

[@genkikio4543]

When is the all wrath vantage warrior maddening run?

[@starberry_lemonade]

If you’re willing, some interesting reclasses for Mauvier are Warrior and Bow Knight. With his high base magic, a forged Radiant Bow can allow him to one-shot fliers. You lose staff utility, but if you need another flier answer, Mauvier is a good answer.

[@FishPondHaver]

The little glasses on Mauvier are so cute 😂

[@SparkyPixel]

I always like to mention Lapis's personal skill. It's more helpful than people give it credit for and Lapis can easily make a good wyvern, wolf knight, or halberdier with use of a second seal.

[@actuallizard]

Out of those I think Lapis really only wants to be a wyvern. Lapis has high personal spd but wants strength help. Wolf Knight Lapis has around 20 strength in the lategame. Even with dagger forges that's low, and she can double in other classes, Halberdier is pretty much the class we use to fix units with high strength and low speed. Lapis doesn't need pincer attack to double. Wyvern is good for her though, since it helps her strength, and she kind of plays out like a second chloe, but who you get after some of chloe's better chapters, and who can't opt into doing magic damage. Her personal is pretty good though, I agree on that.

[@nacitalatincirli793]

@@actuallizard ummm, objection… Lapis’s halberdier outfit looks amaziiiing

[@actuallizard]

@@nacitalatincirli793 that's true, you got me there

[@SparkyPixel]

​@@nacitalatincirli793 heck yeah it does!

[@CosmicToad5000]

yeah i've seen a lot people saying it's bad because of the -10 crit, but really -10 crit and +10 hit is a massive reliability boost that ensures Lapis will rarely miss or crit at an unfortunate time, and Lapis doesn't really have the strength to make a crit stacking build work to begin with.

[@mitrettavrednik]

Of all the Engage creators I follow I always find your analysis to be the best. This is a fantastic list and I don't think there's anything I'd really change. Your analysis for each unit rings very true for me as well. Only minor comment I have is with Citrinne's Dire Thunder build. On fixed maddening I have not really found that Citrinne's damage falls off with Thunder. She requires consistent investment (e.g. refining Thunder all the way to +5, giving it Ike engrave, etc.), and she sometimes comes up juuuust short of one-rounding things. But things like Spell Harmony, standing next to Alear, or instructs that give +Mag are usually enough to get her over the threshold. Or you could give her one or more spirit dusts. It's favoritism, but a good investment I think because she's one of the better answers to one-rounding very fast enemies like swordmasters and wolf knights. I did find that her hit rates were pretty shaky though, so I had her inherit Divine Pulse, which pretty much fixed the issue.

[@thorscape3879]

Etie is being underrated here. She's in a similar situation to Amber where she doesn't need to double to perform well. It's nice when she does of you set it up with speedtaker but her natural Str has her on average outperform Alcryst and she can do it in either Warrior or Sniper. She doesn't necessarily need Lyn as an Emblem to contribute.

[@gameplayerone3917]

Clanne, does have a specific build that I believe elevates him to that tier. It's Mage Knight with Byleth. The sync'd lance gives you 50% extra might when initiating, ultimately making him an overall decent combat unit who can hit low res enemies and easily kill high res mages. With Break Defenses he can reliably 1 shot berserkers with a Levin Sword, and since it breaks axes he doesn't have to worry about counters. Similarly, with the sync'd lance he can one shot swordmasters, sometimes with the speed to double. For experience, using Celica's recover staff helps a lot. I've generally never had too much of an issue getting him to lv10. However, maybe I do baby him too much so it's hard to say without doing any math.

[@gameplayerone3917]

Calvary also makes Byleth's instruct give 10 dex, which can help for crits, hits, and skill procs.

[@orcishgreenland5690]

​Given that Areadbhar has 21 Mt when initiating, IL 40 mage knight Clanne (so, pretty much endgame level) has 20 Str, and the first swordmasters you see after getting Byleth (chapter 20) have 50 HP and 23 Def, I think getting OHKOs on them is all but out of the picture. Maybe my notion of how the Mt works is off though. I do think Areadbhar is a cool niche option for dealing with lategame mages that deserves a bit more scrutiny. Suboptimal though it may be, more mixed mage knights like Clanne or Merrin can use it to ORKO enemy sages and mage knights while still making use of Byleth's Mag / Spd boosts, which is neat if nothing else. It's funny to see it mentioned here - I was going to try MK Merrin with Byleth in my next run to see how feasible it is, and it's nice to see that someone else had pretty much the same idea. Sadly, I feel Byleth's potential makes this pretty slim use case a bit of a hard sell. Dex rallies are nice for consistency, but the alternatives are often better for reaching thresholds (+3 or +5 to speed or magic is HUGE), and Thyrsus is so good that most of his other engage weapons have difficulty comparing. I think Clanne's main issue is that getting him to promotion is less automatic than other units because starting at level 1 kinda stinks, so you really have to work for it compared to, say, Celine, and since you don't really get anything particularly exceptional out of him, it ends up feeling less worthwhile than raising up Jean or Anna.

[@Luigidreamteamfan]

Seems like a good build for sure but I don’t see how this couldn’t be used on other units

[@DaniDoyle]

Oh hell yeah shouting out wolf knight amber. I love it

[@Raizearche]

Rosado was one of my favorite pet projects. I didnt like how he felt with Eirika cause of his poor attack speed, but I gave him Lyn and between that and his growths he actually propelled to competency with admittedly a bit of babying. Didnt stop him from being one of my stronger units by the late game, zero regrets would "waste" lyn again.

[@matiastorres2553]

i try amber bow knight amber in my current ironman and man, he is awesome, his pasive fix his hit rates, strg enough to one shot flying units, and with lyn ring he is not having problem double any enemy, if u dont want use lyn on him just give him speedtaker and problem solved. ivy with lyn or speedtaker or lyn emblem is awesome too if u dont want give her lyn ring, divine pulse fix her hit rates and she can be a awesome to destroy armys. Alear is one of the best lucina users, dual support gives him insane avoid and with grifin knight makes ur flyers tanks any hit (wyvern kagetsu and chloe + ivy) u can end maps so easy with this strat

[@GKoopa]

your opinions have had time to change twice over since this video but i just watched it so i get to comment this now, sorry: I think you kind of miss a trick with Timerra. She isn't uniquely bulky nor uniquely damaging with sandstorm, but the thing about sandstorm is that it allows you to double up on investment into her in a unique way. You can give ike to anyone to make them live forever, but if you give Ike to Timerra, in addition to doing that, she will also now deal massively more damage with her sandstorm procs. And defense is an easy stat to stack, almost as easy as Speed is. Defense + 3 is a cheap inherit, as is Resolve, in fact she has enough SP for exactly those two when she joins. Just this gives her +8 bulk and +12 sandstorm damage when resolve is activated, so if you don't want to stick ike on her for the whole playthrough she can still get those big procs with another ring equipped. and if you *do* want to stick ike on her, at max rank he gives +5 defense, then +7 from resolve+, and you probably still want to inherit some level of def+, for a total of 15-18 additional defense, and in turn 22-27 more sandstorm damage. Now you have a unit who can take the hits and hella dish them out sometimes, without needing to do more extra investment into fixing her damage via other means. Now i haven't played maddening yet and even on hard i don't think this is in any way better than some of the best units in the game, but it is something only she can do and i think enough to extract her from the pit of the "useless unless they eat all your resources" units.

[@yeehaw8892]

issue is timerra only does "massive damage" if sandstorm procs. why would you use a unit that only deals damage when they proc a skill, vs a unit that can always deal damage? (this is the same reason why alcryst is also pretty shit -- yes, he's a funny unit for having 0x2 on forecast and then killing, but it again requires luna to proc.) i just imagine timerra and alcryst as having hit rates equal to their proc chance, as they're usually just doing 0 damage without them -- so even if you have ~40 dex, that's a 40% hit rate otherwise you're doing 0 damage. this is especially exacerbated by enemy bulk in engage, where i'm pretty sure you need a crit AND a skill proc for these units to kill. while a unit like kagetsu can double and fish for a crit in that way, timerra and alcryst need a crit and a skill proc to one-round. (needing one crit isn't so bad for physical units that can double on player phase, as with two hits, you have a pretty good chance for at least one hit to crit) if you take a look at fates meta, the same thing kinda happens -- why use proc skills when you can use more reliable other methods of one-rounding? the only good proc skill there is sol (which is shit in engage because they made diamant cap dex really low, and also because engage is much more difficult to juggernaut other than vantage/wrath and some dodge tanks)

[@GKoopa]

@@yeehaw8892 i think you kinda missed the entire point of my post lol Timerra will do good damage _sometimes_ is literally what i said. The unique thing is that she does this while stacking defense, while other units who want to do big damage will have to spend slots on damage skills, and other tanks will not match her damage output even if she only hits it sometimes. Stacking defense is easy, and you probably aren't fielding two other Phys tanks, so this is not taking important resources away from anyone else. Obviously this is not the best build in the game, but it's pretty ok!

[@unstablepc5913]

u/KrashBoomBang concludes in their LTC post that Merrin is interchangeable with Kagetsu. I'm still on my second playthrough, and I'm growing convinced that they are right in another of their opinions - Ivy is the best unit in the game. She hits so many benchmarks through the midgame, where, with the right setup, she can sweep maps with 1-2 range. No unit can really replicate this while being a flyer and avoiding break. I consider the midgame to be the most important, because after you get the Micaiah ring back, most maps are somewhat trivial and a whole host of units can hit the benchmarks required to kill bosses.

[@carloluis174]

zelestia is straight up better than Ivy. she has 2 less magic, way more attack, higher defense, and SPEED. the most important stat in the game.

[@unstablepc5913]

​@@carloluis174 *I don't consider DLC bracelets or characters in my statement

[@carloluis174]

@@unstablepc5913 thats weird.

[@actuallizard]

Ivy is pretty cracked. I've been going back and forth on who I think the best 3 in the game are, but Ivy definitely seems in competition for that to me.

[@HonkHonkGoose776]

I don’t think this guide is considering dlc

[@kiaras.6493]

According to all the tier lists I saw so far, my team set up is either a total mess or my rng made some really fun ,,decisions". Here is my endgame team: Alear (f) -> put her into wolf knight because of the ponytail. Her long bicolored her bothered me a lot. She is doing really good as a dodger but lacks a little of strength. Had her with Byleth most of the time and now back to Marth since my other free units didn't need Marth but could make use of Byleth instead. Diamant -> Successor He has Ike and he is an absolute maniac. Bosskiller, monsterkiller, one man meat wall, assistent and enemyphasekiller... he could basically solo the game if I wouldn't restrict him sometimes for other units. MVP since forever. I invested into the +30 hit for him... that's basically all he needs. I recommend using killer sword and tomahawk as weapons. Pandreo -> mage knight I have him with Sigurd. No special reason aside from everyone else being good with other emblems allready. He is really strong and fast. Alsonthe mage knight outfit suits him well. Definitely don't wanna miss him. Alcryst -> I don't know the English name of his special class but yeah, his special class promotion. He is with Lucina and an absolute Crit monster. Yes, he might be a little behind in strength compared to Fogado or so, but what does ist matter if he crits everything away ? With Lucina he also assists a lot despite not being an assist unit. Anna -> mage of course She needed Micaiah for the first 2 or 3 maps and use her a few times to keep up but it was worth it. Extremly good mage and I am sometimes suprised that she can also take a hit and returm the favor. With her good resitance and high magic attack she can also face enemy mages in enemy round and weaken them which is pretty useful the boss mages which are stronger and really dangerous for many physical units. After Micaiah she got Celica but she also works well with a normal magic emblem ring for the time without Celica. Jean -> sage You get him early enough. If you built him right away there is kot much effort you need. He can be good at basically anything, but he really shines as a sage, with his high resistance and high magic attack. He can also take a hit from enemies and is almost invinvible against magic attacks. He also dodges pretty well. Micaiah fits him best as emblem ring but he honestly does well enough without an emblem. He know has Byleth just because the physical emblems don't really suit him and I have all the rings now so enough for everyone. Louis -> armored knight lance/axe He has Leif on him. If the army gets split up, I make sure the side that doesn't has Diamant gets Louis. And I also make sure that this side has less mages 😅 other than that, he is pretty much invincible. Perfect to put as wall against assasins and bows especially and to draw them out but now I've come to a point where only really strong hit units can tickle him, mages aside. He is a bit slow but often strong enough to one hit and if not he atleast weakens the enemies. He can also carry the hammer and make use of it if needed though most of the time he sticks with his killer lance and spear. Chloe -> wyvern knight I had her griffin bevor but she didn't grow in strength and couldn't damage anyone at some point. I was about to bench her but gave her another chance as awyvern knight. Fortunately she redeemed herself, recovered her strength and does pretty decently. I equipped Lyn on her. I am not sure if I would use Chloe another playthrough though. Someone else might do the job better. Seadall -> dance, corrin, no brainer, stays the way he is, moving on. Clanne -> hero He has Roy. Definitely not the strongest unit out there. I was kinda lucky with him. He peformed so well for long enough that he received a good built effortlessly that still carries him through endgame. He uses a forged Wo dao and a short lance/spear ? Whatever it is called in English. He is fast and good in dodging. Since he doubles everything and crits most of the time he is a reliable playerphase killer who can take hits in enemyphase as well. I consider him rng luck though and he can definitely be replaced. It's justvthat he was already fully build when I had new units that could replace him but needed investment bevor that. Fogado -> Amor (his special promotion) He got Eirika and he is really worth it. With his good magic growth he can also utilize the magic bow of this game. He also has a killer bow. He might not crit as much as Alcryst but he is strong an fast enough to kill anyway. Mauvier -> his original class He got Micaiah to level up faster now. People said he is a good unit... but so far he doesn't impress me at all and the game is almost over. I doubt he will make a good impression till the end. I think he suffers a lot from being an endgame unit. Veyle -> original class The same as mauvier exvept without an emblem at all Hortensia -> her special promotion She had Micaiah for a while. Her skills are damns good but she is only good for healing and staying behind everyone which can be really annoying when enemy reinforcements pop up in the rear. So despite her good healing utility she is often just an extra weight to carry around. Getting her to safe spaces instead of using her to heal is really bothersome. Her magic attacks are so weak and slow, that she can't even kill low resitance enemies. Despite not having those super beneficial skills for healing, Jean does her job just as well without being a burden. But maybe I was unlucky with her magic growth.... I don't know. I had Yunaka for a long time as a team member. Everyone said she is the best unit in the game butbshe became gradually worse in my run to the point, where she only made chip damage on low defense enemies and no damage at every enemy with decent defense. I tried so hard to make her work but I eventually benched her and took Pandreo in who I benched first until I heard of mage knight Pandreo which was infinitely better that Yunaka and better as sage Pandreo. So there we have it. If I do another run, I really wanna test out Amber. I also might test warrior Etie. Heard she'd be really good that way. I am not sure about Panette. I testet her two maps but she got always killed really easily and missed many hits ... People say she is awesome but unfortunately she proofed herself to be a burden.

[@BBQ_Ch1cken]

These videos make me want to replay Engage, which isn’t something I thought I’d want to do

[@tanner6260]

Love your tier lists (and that you have more specific categories than S-F), would love to hear your thoughts on the DLC characters! I've done 2 hard mode runs, one used Ivy (before xenologue was released), and one using Zelestia, and other than not having staves, Zelestia seems to blow Ivy out of the water. Better personal skill, WAY better class skill (grasping void seems tied for the worse class skill in the game, along with Smash+ and Careful Aim), so much faster... Admittedly I haven't done maddening yet, but comparing both on hard, I feel like I'm missing something. Maybe my Ivy got unlucky with speed growths, not sure.

[@actuallizard]

I plan to make a video on the DLC folks eventually! I need to actually use them all in a run first. I'm expecting Zelestia to be quite good, although losing the staves is a big loss

[@Whirlwhind1]

When I build Timerra, I go all in on her defense for more hard-hitting Sandstorms. She ate all my dracoshields and is currently glued to the Hector bracelet. Can always give her Fensalir, but who cares about speed when you can Quick Riposte on enemy phase? Heavy Attack also turns her low build into extra attack power when using Brionac or Venomous. Yes, she definitely comes off as lackluster compared to Merrin and Panette at first impression, but she's just too much fun for me to bench.

[@Thrdwrld32]

I'm not sure what a lot of the content creators on KZbin are doing with their Timerra to not be getting ridiculous results from her. All I did was give her Dex+ and SPD+ as skills on my first maddeding playthru, and Lance power and Dex &SPD+ on my second. With either Ike or Hector she's an amazing enemy phase defensive vanguard with almost no investment; I can literally use her to clear entire maps. Is she a damage dealing dive unit? No. But she can literally sit there and just tank and counter with just a +3 Javelin. I'm starting to think it's just about how people play, because I also think the utility of Martial Masters are amazing and usually undervalued in these kinds of videos. Framme's great supports and bonded shielding/chain gaurding utility is frankly capable of trivializing damage on certain maps with thoughtful positioning. So like if you don't value utility or enemy phase tanking then yeah you'd rank these features lower. But Timerra is not "high investment." The things you need to enable Timerra should be resources you already have and she doesn't need babying to be amazing. You just need to put Ike or Hector on her and position her in the middle of a lot of enemies.

[@actuallizard]

Timerra in Picket ends the game with 30 defense and 51 hp at internal level 40. This is good, but it's not enough to sit there and tank attacks, without further help she gets 2 rounded by units like the heroes in chapter 24 who have 61 attack. She needs ike to be sitting there and taking hits, but lots of units can become super bulky with ike, and many of those units also one shot things with wrath. With a +3 javelin at IL 40 she is doing single digit damage to many of the chapter 24 enemies with her strength of 24, and Ike engage doesn't last forever. Ike is also an emblem with competition.

[@Thrdwrld32]

Sure. All of that is correct. And what you said in the video is also correct. That's just not my experience. I appreciate your benchmarks based on the numbers. But that's just not what actually happens when you deploy this character. And look man, I tried to rack my brain with how to construct empirical counterpoints to refute your claims, but like I honestly just don't have the time to go thru my file and figure that out, and maybe that's not fair to you, and I'm sorry. But also, I just can't. And I get it, this is allegorical evidence, but I'm telling you man, and it sounds like I'm not the only one telling you, if you put Ike or Hector on Timerra, give her a +3 or higher Javelin, and a +3 Steel Lance with some engravings (completely normal things, typical, you would do for any unit you decide to make a mainstay in your army) and then just put her in the middle of a bunch of enemies, heal her and support her when she needs (once again a totally normal and typical things you'd do for any unit you deploy that goes for multiple rounds) you'll find she kills things and procs sandstorm exactly when she needs to. From a completely, you know, game feel perspective. Your placement of Timerra feels more like you came to that conclusion based on the numbers and not actually trying to play to the character's strengths in the game. Either way, good video. Thanks for the content.

[@superfrubblez6123]

I think this is a bit of a difference in definitions. I would consider needing to give timerra a master seal at that point in the game, those 5 levels to get to sandstorm, and a competitive emblem like Ike a high investment, especially in a non DLC context which this list is. Once you give her those resources she can do well, but so can many other units. All characters in engage can do well, it’s just that some characters need more work than others and Timerra is one of them.

[@effluxi9587]

I feel like Timerra is kind of in an odd spot without DLC where she's better at some things and worse at others compared to Goldmary. The biggest differences are an unreliaby better enemy phase and the needing promoted + 5 levels instead of just 2. With DLC though, all she needs is any Avo engrave and Hector/Tiki - both of who are not particularly contested - and she starts completely destroying everything on EP. She's really odd in that regard. She goes from being a Goldmary you have to baby to one of the best units in the game from just un-engaged Hector or Engaged Tiki with QR inherited...

[@Thrdwrld32]

​@@superfrubblez6123I disagree, what you've described to me is the bare minimum of favoritism expected when you decide to regularly deploy a unit. If that's the case Kagetsu is the exact same level of investment as Timerra or possibly more. He comes in an underwhelming class with so-so damage, you gotta wait til you get Timerra to reclass to other more impressive classes. But everyone has a good opinion of him. Personally, I think he's boring to build around, and I value Enemy Phase ability over player phase and the only way to make Kagetsu an effective enemy phase unit is to make him a dodge tank which takes way more effort than Timerra needs to be a tank.

[@Edgeperor]

Jean and Anna aren’t even that high effort. People always say putting Micaiah on one of them is “favoritism” and all that shit but like who else is using her? She basically turns any unit into a pure staff bot, and great sacrifice isn’t exactly something you’d want on a unit who’s gonna see combat. Because of that, Micaiah is best put on someone with little combat contribution in earlygame, and wouldn’t you know it, Jean and Anna fit that bill perfectly. Once they promote they turn into super viable combat units, and putting Roy on a Berserker Jean gives some pretty insane results.

[@Handles_be_dumb]

Thing is, you can also pair Micaiah with any other unit and get all the same benefits PLUS the benefits of the units themselves. Jean and Anna are ONLY good with Micaiah, therefore they're more high effort than others.

[@Edgeperor]

@@Handles_be_dumb yeah since making this comment I’ve found the light and realized they’re actually pretty bad

[@Vanessomatic]

On Maddening Jean isn't worth it. On lower difficulties he might not need Micaiah but you'll have to still feed him exp and probably run through all the dlc maps to get him up to a decent level and master seal him before trying chapter 10+11 or else he just spends too long playing catch up. But it is funny having him swing axes larger than his own body while riding a flying mount, I guess.

[@ProtoTypeFM]

Here's an alternative build for Panette that I would argue is just as good if not better than Ike: low Bond level Leif with Wrath inherited. He comes with Vantage, and is generally not as good as Ike but pops off very well on Panette, that way you can save Ike for another unit. This build is sick because if you also slap an engraved Killer Bow on her, Leifs Adaptable lets her switch between 1 and 2 range oneshotting on enemy phase. This build is even better now that Enchanter is a thing, because Food Surge allows Panette to safely get to Vantage range without even needing Hold Out or Flame Vein setup. Just make sure to stay Bond Level 4 or 9, since you really dont want Panette to switch to Leifs other weapons.

[@bladecommando]

Idk if I could handle having a notification for a bond support that I never click haha

[@Sir_Phobos]

I started my first maddening run and decided this was the time to use Jade and project pretty much describes it. A lot of investment that others could have used and a class change to axe paladin, but it was satisfying to see her run amok in maddening. Had a lot of fun with it.

[@undercoverweeb]

I'd argue that timera is low effort/generally good. I see a ton of creators put her In a very low tier, and it absolutely baffles me. In a non-dlc but well run, I slapped chain attacks prevention and speedtaker on her with ike. Between her doubling everything and taking almost no damage with ike on her, she was enemy phasing half the map and only needing the occasional offheal from time to time in the mid/late game. Between wrath crits and sandstorm and a +4 lance, nothing ever really stood up to her. On my most recent royals only 7 unit run, lance power + dex/speed made her even stronger. Even when the enemies have 61+ phys attack/50 magic, she's taking 3-7 damage and if she pops aether, atleast 3/4 units will die from the damage + sandstorm. Her lowish res cap seems to be damaging to her tanking but with ike, it's deceptively tanky when engaged. Otherwise, the rest of the list seems pretty agreeable.

[@bunk-o2495]

My whole thing about Timerra is that everyone I've personally seen who defends her being in higher tiers gives her Ike or Hector and says she's a great phase tank, but like, that's what those rings do. To some extent any unit you give a good bond rank Ike is going to be pretty good or great at tanking lots of enemies. Which, means its an argument for how good Ike is as a ring, not about the wearer in specific. To me Timerra is an extremely well rounded unit, which in the context of her personal class means that she's bulkier than most other Backup units, slightly faster than most other tanks, and her ability makes her better equipped to benefit from her high dex. But I feel that well roundedness gets less useful as the game prepossess, that niches tend to stand out better further on, and that she also comes exactly at the time of the most competition for key resources, and tier lists are inherently comparative. So, if several other units can use Ike or whatever just as well, but get more availability or can fly then those things are going to factor into a lower ranking.

[@Edgeperor]

@@bunk-o2495she’s one of the best candidates for Ike though, so that’s just the Ivy/Lyn thing all over again

[@migu6528]

I gave her Roy personally which is a pretty low contested ring gives her a 1-2 range sword with +5 def/res and was able to tank better then Ike because she doesn't get doubled, it opened up units like Panette being able to take the Ike. best of both worlds.

[@ultrose7379]

I feel bad because I mention this on so many videos but merrin has Kagetsu level thresholds with the added effect of having an oddly good/useful magic stat for some extra versatility, despite the stat difference merrin gets the job done with the same level of investment as Kagetsu and pretty much deserves to be next to him on any tier list. Ok that aside let’s get into the other stuff, I think lapis could afford to go up a tier, now I’m not lapis Stan but she has a really good base str of 6 for the early game. She really needs warrior or wyvern but she’s got good long term potential. Her 2 biggest issues is that even though she has a spd stat that can eventually compare to the big time units like merrin and Kagetsu her build holds her back. But she’s still quite good compared to many others. And the second one is just that while she has some of the best long term potential out of the early game units she’s fighting for a early master seal that probably isn’t gonna go to her when Chloe, Amber, citrinne, alear. Are right there. And she needs to get started on her reclass right away. She struggles outside of a few classes but she’s got good pay off compared diamant (who has a better early game then her tho) but I can’t fault you on where she is now tho. Yeah thank you for putting timerra right where she belongs! I really don’t like her unit. Sandstorm would be fine if she didn’t need it to do everything for her. She has the same personal base str as lapis. How could they do this. Lances are really rough on timerra’s back, and if she wants to use her sandstorm gimmick she really needs the fensalir to have a good lance that doesn’t destroy her spd and consequently her bulk and offense. Her bulk really isn’t as good as people try to say it is, it’s not bad by any means when you don’t factor in spd loss and it’s quite solid but it’s nothing crazy good either. At least someone like lapis can go into something that lets them use swords or fixs they’re build timerra just has nothing. Framme I’m fine with but I think the whole martial master lucina thing doesn’t matter when alear is the best lucina user by far. Can be invisible with dual support and a micaiah engraved weapon. Supports everyone to get those insane bonuses. And has a a plus 3 damage personal for adjacent Allies, it’s like he was build for lucina. Alear wants to get out of dd anyway so it’s your choice of griffin for flier ball (I think this is the best choice) mage knight/royal knight for cav ball (have thunder chain attacks or staff support, I like the staff support more but mage knight is a good option) or martial master for everyone. It depends on your play style but alear is by far the best unit for the role of cav ball center. Framme is still nice just because early game healing is useful tho Other then that though I think I agree with everything! Great work/list lizard! Edit sorry for the word vomit lol

[@priestessii]

The big difference with Kagetsu v Merrin is that Kagetsu has 2 more Str and a 5% higher Str growth. The second part doesn't matter all that much, but the first part can certainly matter in a min-maxed playthrough. The other thing with Kagetsu vs Merrin is that you generally only need one fast damage carry on your team imo, so while Merrin can do 90% of what Kagetsu does, the lack of need for that role pushes her into more of a secondary combat/utility role on a playthrough that you want to make as easy as possible.

[@ultrose7379]

@@priestessii she hits the same Damage threshold despite the str he has over her. She has just enough str to do the job just as well as him so that barely matters. And alls having both in wyvern is super useful, they make incredible partners for tag teaming bosses/splitting up for bosses or participating in the lucina ball in which you need 3 people other then alear for, which the best version is Ivy, Kagetsu and merrin. If your not running flier ball merrin is easily one of the best candidates for cav and or a martial master ball. You don’t need to run both in the same class. They’re a strong combo from working together or working apart. Or you can take advantage of her extra versatility and make her a incredible mixed warrior to shoot down evil fliers with the radiant bow and delate other enemies with her great offensive spread so you have other options but because lucina ball exists she’s pretty much better being a part of that then wasting her incredible stat spread going for something that other people can handle, In a game of benchmarks merrin hits Kagetsu level thresholds, there really isn’t much else to be said here

[@priestessii]

@@ultrose7379 this assumes everyone is investing the same amount of exp, depending on how fast you play, that 2 Str can really matter

[@ultrose7379]

@@priestessii she has completely replaced and existed alongside Kagetsu in different ltcs and performed on equal level as him when she replaced him and when she was working with him. The biggest issue for when Kagetsu wasn’t used was that you didn’t have them working together (Chloe was the 2nd wyvern) That 2 str isn’t changing how she does compared to him even when your going as fast as you can

[@priestessii]

@Ultrose I am a LTC'er, and you're wrong. KrashBoomBang did a run where he replaced Kagetsu with Merrin and did all paralogues, and concluded the same thing that I was saying, which is that Merrin can do 90% of Kagetsu stuff. However, if you aren't doing every paralogue, then that 2 Str will matter, 100%. You will need to invest an extra Str drop in Merrin, which will hurt your Panette thresholds. Merrin is a top 9 unit in LTC no question, but it's because of her incredible versatility with bases that allow her to pick up secondary combat, not because she is a second Kagetsu.

[@gbjon9044]

I'm pretty sure that base vantage is

[@actuallizard]

You are correct, let me pin a correction!

[@plainjanemugi]

Thank you for the vid❤🧡💛💚💙💜

[@VariableEnd]

Honestly, with Citrinne, I gave her an engraved +5 Thoron, Hold Out+, Vantage, and engaged her with Veronica, and just kinda threw her places. She absolutely bodied anything that so much as glanced at her

[@fearlv1rattata]

Overall a good list. Poor Louis never has staying power. I do think Chloe Timerra and Ana are very underrated. Chloe is always one of the most consistent damage dealers as long as you're going Levin Sword and not keeping her on lances. Timerra even without Ike is great. I wouldn't even put her and Goldmary in the same conversation. Ana doesn't really require much investment at all, and what little investment she requires, she will pay back with gold. The only other one I wouldn't agree with is Yunaka. Even with no investment, she has some niche maps where she shines. Chapter 25 and the Alear prologue specifically. But she has to have Corrin or she's dead. But on Maddening, getting the right amount of avoid with her can be a bit of a chore. Too much and she is useless, too little and she's dead.

[@ellachino4799]

Why do you say Anna doesn't need investment? In my opinion she needs a LOOOOT of babying

[@greg6434]

With Goldmary, I think it depends on how well your other units are trained up. I personally don't bother with skirmishes so some of my units tend to completely fall off during Solm. This means that having a unit like Goldmary with good bases is valuable to me. Her best build is a tank cuz on other units (with the well), you can just go weapon power, speedtaker, steel/brave and endgame enemies just melt, making the hero build obsolete imo. She does need some investment to deal significant damage on enemy phase however. Timerra being next to Jade and Bunet seems very unfair to me. The latter 2 need some serious help to be productive units. Timerra does fine on her join chapter since she is by default pretty bulky there and after that she wants resources like any other unit. All of the units in filler high effort barring Jean/Anna (ignoring their mandatory exp investment) need special treatment to one round late game. The units in that tier also need to be dragged through the early game where Timerra does not. I would also argue that Louis should be in generally good tier. Reclass him to warrior and he will have very similar strength to Panette and Amber who suffer from the exact same issues that he does.

[@mithos789]

anna on the same tier as boucheron

[@HeroMystic]

I feel like the elephant in the room here is how Engage works on a fundamental level. It's a known secret that FE games get destroyed when you under-deploy and snowball units early on (exceptions to FE6 due to extremely low bases, and somewhat Radiant Dawn due to how it works until Part 4), but in Engage it's ramped up to 11 due to everyone in the game not walking in ready to carry to the game like some units would in past games. Literally everyone in Engage (Except Seadall I guess) wants really high investment to contribute meaningfully, and there's so much resource management in Engage that you really have to just pick what units you want to build and commit to it. This is why Timerra is so heavily advocated for because once invested into she becomes strong, like how any other character would. To be honest I'm actually not even that impressed with Kagetsu despite using him, but I also didn't invest a ton of stuff into him. Engage really is just a unit builder game.

[@actuallizard]

The thing is Timerra does not become all that great with the investment relative to other units. We can give her lyn, or ike, or a good forge and engrave, but all of those would be better on units that are already ahead of her on combat benchmarks. Since you mentioned kagetsu, at Internal level 40, wyvern Kagetsu is ahead of lL 40 picket timerra in every stat except for magic including a large 8 point lead in strength, and higher build and speed to double with higher might weapons. If we assume we give them about the same amount of exp, Timerra needs significant additional investment just to catch up to what Kagetsu is doing. Low manning and under deploying actually makes it harder for Timerra to earn a spot on the team. If we are only using 4-6 combat units, you have to be one of the best combat units to earn your space, and Timerra isn't that. Most good combat units also do not need high investment in the same way Timerra does. Amber one shots a ton of late game enemies with nothing but a forged silver greataxe. Panette one shots even more than that with Ike and a killer axe. Kagetsu one rounds many late game enemies with a killer or silver axe and small speed boost from a meal or bond ring. Timerra performs worse than all these units at the same level, so to me it makes a lot more sense to invest in those units and get them one rounding even more enemies, rather than spending resources trying to catch Timerra up to them performance wise. If Engage is a unit builder, I want to be building from a strong foundation.

[@HeroMystic]

I disagree you have to be one of the best combat units to earn a spot in a low-man environment. You just have to be good enough to be capable of snowballing. I'm not really an advocate of Timerra but I recognize that she is in fact one of these units who can do this, regardless of how much better the top tier units are. So I can't really agree that she is a project, because otherwise I would argue that Alear and Chloe should be much lower than they are because they can only become strong units through filtering EXP into both of them for the majority of the early chapters, and Alear in particular really relies on damage skills to retain combat relevancy otherwise they're relegated to being a support unit. We also have to factor in how we're playing the game. The arguments change heavily if we're doing all paralogues or no paralogues, or if we're using the well or not. If we're using the Well then just about anyone start curbstomping due to the Weapon Power skills allowing most units to meet ORKO checks. Speedtaker or Speed+3 (minimum) also fixes the majority of speed issues, and it's not unrealistic to get every damage carry with these skills. Kagetsu may not need all of that investment to curbstomp the game with help from Bonded shield, but all that really means is you can use those resources for someone else to meet the nessecary combat benchmarks.

[@actuallizard]

@@HeroMystic but timerra doesn't snowball better than the units I talked about. She does worse at the same level without significant additional resources. If she has a worse start, and takes more resources to perform well against endgame enemies compared to alternatives, it seems fair to say she's a project. And again we can use all those resources to make the strong units like panette, amber, kagetsu etc, one round more things instead of trying to catch timerra up to what they can already do. And re: alear and Chloe. Support alear is good. They're good even if we don't pump them full of exp. Chloe is largely good because she's barely competing with anyone for mercurius. If timerra joined in chapter 4 with extremely limited competition for resources she would also be a better unit.

[@actuallizard]

Unless your point is just that she can snowball and is therefore viable in which case, sure, everyone's viable in engage. That's why the category is "project" and not "unusable"

[@HeroMystic]

@@actuallizard To clarify, in terms of the guide, I'm not saying Timerra is as good as the top tiers. My argument is Timerra is a unit that can snowball with costly, but affordable investment, and can do it better than the others around her tier, and in my experience, should be bumped up higher than them because she's in a better situation. Project tier to me, means this unit has little to no appeal and needs a few if not several maps favored to them until they can meaningfully contribute. Anna and Jean I feel are in the right spot because Jean is a Qi Adept which means he can pretty much play support and be fine for basically the whole game, even if in the end he's just carried by his starting class, and Anna has to rely on Staff and Micaiah EXP abuse to get going but the gains are rather high if you do so. But I find it difficult to believe Clamme and Alfred has an easier time snowballing than Timerra without being especially catered to, even when they have the early chapters to benefit from, because their bases and growths means they realistically fall behind even in low-man situations, and even in their starting chapters they can't enemy phase and their player phase leaves a lot to desired.

[@nathanharris8896]

Is Alear actually a good wyvern? I looked up the average stats at level 20, and they look terrible. It seems like that martial lucina or the Byleth dragon would be better.

[@JoseAlberto-Jugo]

Great vid!

[@bunk-o2495]

do I understand your fondness for warriors? no, but I do respect it lol also you once again forgot the most important of tiers: Cool Hat

[@DaniDoyle]

Give Bunett Axe Power 5 and Sword Power 5 then hes always dealing damage, idk why you think he's a "project" easily one of the top 2 combat units in the game mine capped his stats on his first level up.

[@actuallizard]

Just needs a swordmaster reclass tbh

[@francisayala9310]

Assuming you're playing on fixed mode, if there's a character that belongs in two tiers, it's Yunaka. I feel Yunaka lives in the tier you put her and in Zelkovs. She and Zelkov are really interchangeable, depending on what you need and what role you'd make them. She has more DEX and RES (even at base she has more RES than Zelkov, which is a big deal since Mystical units ignore terrain bonuses), Zelkov has more HP, STR, and DEF, and they both have the same SPD once she's the same level as Zelkov when he joins. Zelkov's extra DEF isn't that big a deal in practice since you're generally using both as a dodge tank, although it's nice to have that bulk just in case the RNG hates you. However, Zelkov gives that HP back if he's near a magic user. The STR advantage can be equalized if you give her an Energy Drop or a STR tonic since she's two points less than Zelkov once she's the same level as him when he joins. Yes, her BLD is less than Zelkov's which means you can't have her use Silver Daggers, but consider the practicality of forging steel vs silver. The material cost of steel dagger +5 and silver dagger +4/5 is not worth it, so in reality you're looking at steel dagger +4 vs silver dagger +3. The might difference between both is only one. Steel dagger +4 also has +10 crit which synergizes wirh Yunaka's personal skill and higher DEX, and she won't get weighed down by it. So all in all, they are pretty much interchangeable depending on need. The real question is if you're willing to invest the EXP into Yunaka pre chapter 10 so that she's roughly the same level as Zelkov when he joins and if you're going to give her any skills from the emblems that leave after chapter 10, which in my book fits investment description of Zelkov's tier. Edit: I forgot to mention the 1 range daggers. Due to Yunaka's BLD, she can't use the 1 range daggers without a SPD penalty, which sucks since the inherit crit on those daggers fits nicely with her high DEX, so i guess that's one thing Zelkov has over her. But is that really a deal breaker for Yunaka? Probably not.

[@stormfallvalkyri8389]

Lizard you forgot sommie. 0/10

[@actuallizard]

He deserves his own video

[@sinfall5280]

Lol. Why does Mauvier have shades?

[@actuallizard]

They have two Moauviers on the tiermaker. They added the second one with sunglasses when the Xenologue came out, so I think he's supposed to be XenoMauvier, but I used him here because I like that he has sunglasses on

[@DARKMalice9000]

This is my Alear No Emblem Divine Dragon Skills Mag/Res +5 Mag/Dex +5 HP: 68 Mov: 7 Bld: 13 Str: 42 Mag: 25 ( +10 ) 35 Dex: 37 (+5) 42 Spd: 44 Def: 35 Res: 25 (+ 5) 30 Lck: 35 I thought to have him a little balanced Weapons Wille Glanz +5 Fire Engrave Libération +5 Silver-Spirit Art +5 My Ivy Emblem Soren Mag +4 Dex +3 Res +5 Skills Str/Dex +5 (Edelgard/Dimitri/Claude) Spd/Dex +5 (Chrom/Robin) Hp: 60 Bld: 15 Str: 31 (+5) 36 Mag: 42 (+4) 46 Dex: 23 (+13) 36 Spd: 34 (+5) 39 Def: 33 Res: 42 (+5) 47 Lck: 17 Weapons Excalibur +5 (Spoiler Fell Xenologue characters) Gregory Sage Emblem Byleth Mag +3 Spd +3 Lck +12 Skills Str/Def +5 Spd/Dex +5 Hp: 43 Bld: 11 Str: 24 (+5) 29 Mag: 51 (+3) 54 Dex: 32 (+5) 37 Spd: 28 (+8) 36 Def: 20 (+5) 25 Res: 47 Lck: 32 (+12) 44

[@AshenDust_]

Who let you in the kitchen?

[@DARKMalice9000]

@@AshenDust_ What?

[@AshenDust_]

@@DARKMalice9000 someone should’ve stopped you from cooking.

[@DARKMalice9000]

@@AshenDust_ Why? I don't understand?

[@AshenDust_]

@@DARKMalice9000 you’ve dedicated both skill slots on Alear to +10 magic, which’ll only actually give you +5 damage on a single weapon. There are so many better uses of skill slots and SP like Canter, Speedtaker or Sword Power. You’ve also given +5 Strength to two entirely magic units, only have Excalibur on Ivy when Thoron, Nova and Bolganone are so useful.

[@MetalGearRaxis]

What do you think is Celine's best build?

[@williamt8234]

Did I miss the explanation for Chloe still not being Always Strong Deploy? She is pretty clearly the best pre-Ch11 unit other than arguably Alear and tends to be tied for best late game too unless you actively hold off on using stat boosters early game.

[@rhettmitchell]

I’m gonna disagree with the Timerra placement, I wouldn’t exactly call her a project. You just have to use her normally for a couple chapters (where she still performs well) and she becomes crazy, especially when she gets sandstorm. She’s (and goldmary to a slightly lesser extent) uniquely able to be an offensive tank that you can park in front of 3-5 enemies (including mages) with an upgraded javelin and she’ll be completely fine, while also doubling and killing some of them. Leaving Ike on her works really well with this. And Sigurd, whose stat buffs work perfectly with what Timerra wants for huge doubling (build fixing) and sandstorms (dex and def)

[@actuallizard]

Respectfully, Timerra's bulk just isn't good enough to do that. She ends the game around 30 defense and 51 hp at IL 40, while enemies are dealing between 40-70 damage. We can make her bulkier with Ike, but this isn't unique to timerra, anyone with alright defense can do that. She also will generally not one round without pretty heavy investment, as the example in the video showed. I didn't have javelin calcs in the video, but with a +5 javelin at IL 35, she deals single digit damage to a lot of enemies in chapter 24, and can fail to kill even on a double sandstorm trigger.

[@rhettmitchell]

@@actuallizard yeah I’d agree with that too. She’s a big “unit feel” kinda character along with Alcryst with his Luna, so that’s a prospect of why a lot of people like her I think. She can become a damage carry if you let her power level, but a lot of people don’t really let her power level over other units like Chloé or Kagetsu

[@justcritlmao5730]

At what point before she gets sandstorm does she even “perform well”. Like she loses a 1 v 1 to her own iron lance 😂

[@jaimereupert4247]

What about all the dlc units?

[@empressnemesis]

yunaka is always a strong deploy because she enriches my spirit

[@meowistforlife]

Amber is part of my filler maybe a project unit, also I do not have Kagestu in my front line

[@meowistforlife]

A lot of these are wrong according to my run, Alcrist, Hortensia, Jade, Louis, and Celine are some of by best units. Pannette, Chloe, and Vander are on my bench permanently

[@meowistforlife]

Jean is also part of my permanent team. That said most of your tiers match up with mine. Citrine is on my bench list as well

[@usnairframer]

I can definitely to tell this much be maddening difficulty only, which I never play, because I can't imagine Louis being only good in the early game. The dude is a powerhouse on hard and the tank to end all tanks as a General. Also, as someone who will never play the game above Hard difficulty, most of my team are characters you listed as being "high effort filler". Kind of crazy.

[@hommefataltaemin]

Obviously it’s maddening only. Why would they make it for Hard or Normal when literally any character can be viable on that? Hard vs Maddening are incredibly different. I would suggest trying Maddening sometime!😊

[@superfrubblez6123]

No BapisTM again. 0/10 video

[@sparkleprizm199]

I think Vander belongs in bottom tier. I tried to use him on hard mode and omg he was terrible.

[@FUTBALLZAK]

Underrating Yunaka, she's great all game, I'd argue she's comfortably the best Byleth user in the game and Wrath and a Peshkatz makes her combat pretty good, Canter+Wrath+Byleth isn't too high investment and she'll make great usage of these tools with high mobility (Pass) and survivability to dance and instruct in places others couldn't while a 2-3 range crit bow syncs well with her personal skill and she's able to hit 100% crit against enemies with just a 20 crit dagger thanks to her personal skill, Zelkov needing a higher investment into his crit dagger to do the same and not having Canter for chapter 12-17 so instead of having a Byleth dancer with Canter for chapter 15-17 you, well, don't. Yunaka is always better than Zelkov due to Canter and her lower investment crit-build imho which easily makes up the difference in stats but the gulf is wider with this specific build.

[@FUTBALLZAK]

To explain my point a bit Byleth's most important trait is Goddess Dance and Instruct so what you care most about is getting into positions to dance/instruct to best help your main combat units while still being able to survive so you don't have to clear out all enemies in the immediate area and your units can instead push further forward to do something potentially more useful and the instruct bonus, Thief is perfect for the first thing because of their dodge-tanking with high natural avoid due to AS and ease to make them invisible to enemies with terrain and an avoid Engraved dagger, also Pass lets them get to positions few others (except fliers) can, I find them the joint most mobile class in the game alongside cavs, meanwhile the covert instruct bonus is +5 speed which is situationally better or worse than +3 to all stats from Dragon and both of these are far far far better instruct bonuses than any other class type offers, fliers, the main competition for Byleth due to better mobility, having a particularly useless +5 res. +5 speed can be an absolute game-changer. So yeah, my Yunaka guide is on chapter 6 give Alear an Illume staff then Mici spam Yunaka with Illume and Great Sac, you should be able to get at least 2 Mici Engages potentially 3 due to always being able to build Engage with Illume without any slowdown while making the chapter easier because you can see the whole map, this nets you a level 9-10 Yunaka with 850-900 SP. From there give her Marth and forge her a Steel Dagger +1 or 2 as her long-term range weapon (steel dagger +4 better than Silver Dagger +3 for Yunaka because of a the +10 crit.) She'll be the best combat unit in the early game and will snowball in levels (you don't have to keep Marth on her the whole time, or at all really, just nice to Mercurius her a few levels.) Grab her wrath as soon as you can, make her a Peshkatz out of Zelkov's Stiletto and get it to +3 as soon as you can (these aren't things that require heavy favourtism, further investment into the Peshkatz will as it costs the same as a silver weapon to forge, I never really go further than +3 on silver weapon except daggers because daggers get +2 might from +4 while other weapons just get hit, Peshkatz gets +2 mt and +5 crit which helps but isn't needed) and Corrin or Camilla Engrave it. I find Killer Weapons can hit 100 crit without a 30 crit Engraving, Panette for example prefers a Lyn Engraving to a Corrin Engraving, so nbd to throw Yunaka Corrin if that's the only 30 crit Engraving you have. (You could also Corrin Engrave the Steel Dagger which she hits 90 crit vs enemies with I find, not 100% and the mt is significantly less than the Peshkatz which goes a long way in helping with her lower strength, but it's an option.) When you get Byleth slap him onto Yunaka. And yeah, she's good, this is lower investment than I put into other units pretty regularly, 3000 SP, 4000 with Canter+, is doable without the well and easy with it, especially since Yunaka has a free FoW chapter with Mici, a pretty significant advantage she has over the other early game units.

[@FUTBALLZAK]

Obviously if you don't care about her combat at all you can just grab her canter and favourite food and purely use her for Goddess Dancing and Instruct, her access to these skills and her class + her snowballing early game as the best early game combat unit all combine to make her the best Byleth user, thanks for reading my frazzled ramble.

[@orcishgreenland5690]

okay there's a lot of stuff i want to say to this so let's start at the top. canter + wrath + byleth is 100% high investment. 3000 SP isn't free unless you throw all of your books at her early, denying them to anyone else (even then, the well doesn't solve problems unless you highroll books; if you don't roll any 500 or 1000 sp books early, you're kinda just screwed in that department, and i don't really like the idea of a strategy that lives and dies off of something that you have very little control over), or you wait a while for wrath, up until which she's just worse than zelkov in all places but res through the midgame since he's straight up statistically ahead of her on equal levels for a long time (she gets an existent speed advantage at level 32, because until then her +1 speed is being cancelled out by losing it from the silver dagger's weight). wrath also costs bond fragments. bond fragments are actually the bottleneck for a lot of skills nowadays. by blowing 1.5k bond fragments on wrath, you've made it harder for everyone else to get to things like speed +4, divine pulse+, the mulagir, and so on. almost certainly an overstatement but still a cost that should at least be considered. mysticals really want byleth; with how good magic damage is, +5 magic can be a huge help in reaching benchmarks (especially since +speed skills are buyable in the midgame but +magic skills aren't available for a long time) and thyrsus is crazy good. you may value byleth's speed boost more than that but the others are still an absolute ton of early investment. pass isn't a really huge deal - if you're running through enemies to get to the rest of your team, something has probably gone wrong. i should know, i used yunaka / roy in my first playthrough and got value out of pass a grand total of ZERO times throughout the entire game. goddess dance is best for a big one-two push, which usually starts with everyone close to each other. level 10 yunaka isn't the best combat unit in chapter 7. 10 str and 14 spd is surprisingly unimpressive. if you're forging her a steel dagger (because you don't actually get one until chapter 10; it's the only steel you don't get in the chapter 5 package), she's got 17 atk. those stats are doubling cavaliers for six damage a pop (2rko), not doubling pegs (4rko), and orkoing mages. for the cost of forging that steel, she's doing pretty much the exact same things as lapis is, and personally i don't think lapis is the best combat unit in chapter 7 despite being free. in chapter 8, she's not really doing more to kagetsu / zelkov / fighters than anyone else. if you want to talk about units who can snowball hard, someone like chloe or louis or even, i dunno, celine would probably be doing better at that early on, because they're providing something difficult to replicate (flight with chloe, great bulk with louis, a solid combination of magic and speed with celine). you can very cheaply replicate covert dodgetanking by giving a lucina user an avoid engrave, or slightly less cheaply by grabbing bow agility with an avoid engraved bow. this has the added benefit of not requiring terrain (although it does need a B or A support in range for lucina users), which is good because there's pretty much no usable terrain after chapter 17. there's only a few pillars in chapter 20, the fog in chapter 24, and the very start of 25 (i.e. not the hard part) while everywhere else is barren, so that means you're burning corrin's veins on something that isn't the ludicrously busted fire vein, which i call a decent cost. zelkov doesn't want to be a crit thief because zelkov doesn't want to be a thief period. in fact, his biggest complaint is that he can't get the heck out of thief quickly enough. (yunaka can't actually follow zelkov out of thief because, unlike him, her build stinks and her strength is very questionable.) zelkov's combat in warrior / halberdier / whatever will be way better than anything he can do in thief because thief is a garbage combat class with strength issues. yunaka at level 40 with a corrin peshkatz +3 has a whopping 40 atk, a number that basically nobody in an actual worthwhile class will have difficulty matching. paladin amber with a forged killer lance can hit those numbers almost ten levels earlier, and paladin isn't even a good class for amber, nor is the killer lance a particularly great weapon. it's cool that yunaka can reach 100 crit with wrath + corrin engrave + personal + 20 crit from peshkatz / failnaught (side note, killer bow + no distractions + wrath + corrin means anyone can hit 100 crit if you're willing to subject yourself to the crushing pain of actually using a sniper). it's less cool when she's only got 40 atk (AT ENDGAME) while enemies are rocking 27+ defense as early as chapter 21. she's critting them for what, half their health? plus she's probably not doubling because enemies are so fast and the corrin peshkatz +3 is weighing her down by two points. so many people can already perform like that, especially when they're inheriting wrath. this also once again raises the question of "where is the terrain coming from?" and tying her consistency to terrain that won't always be in her vicinity (whether because the map is barren or because corrin's off doing something else) is a little questionable. also, if you're using crit yunaka, you're probably using her on player phase because her durability is iffy. she can't dodgetank at the same time reliably - level 40 yunaka has 74 avoid. chapter 19 enemies have around 150 hit, and the number only rises from there. yeah, corrin engrave / terrain give +70 avoid, but at that point less accurate enemies start ignoring you anyways and more accurate enemies are still swinging 30s, hitrates i personally would not risk when you're in wrath range (i.e. any hit kills you). plus, then irregular availability of terrain becomes an issue again. you don't need to be dodgetanking to manage enemies anyways. chain guard and 100% bonded shield are both fantastic for drawing enemies consistently. the fire vein is such obscenely busted crowd control that you can often avoid enemy phasing altogether. dodgetanking often isn't necessary when these tactics are so much easier to abuse. although yunaka isn't a unit i would describe as "bad", she is not a unit i would ever call "great all game" when there are so many cheaper ways to do exactly what she does (unless you're arguing that canter +spd goddess dance is on the same level as the combat units who don't need a 2000 sp skill and a bunch of early forges to be good, a take i would call pretty questionable).

[@FUTBALLZAK]

@@orcishgreenland5690 Soooooooo like if you 3-4 star the well consistently I'm sorry but 3000 SP is nothing;. that's literally the minimum I'm using on a unit post-well, and if you don't want to use her combat again just grab her canter and favourite food to Engage and Goddess Dance a bunch. She has a FoW Mici join map where getting her to nearly 900 SP is free. Dagger forging is optimal early game because Yunaka is the only unit with 1-2 range who's doubling and killing, she's an early game carry, ytf wouldn't you forge her daggers? Zelkov's statistical lead (in strength and defence, speed they're basically tied for much of the game, res. more relevant for Thieves since you're aiming to have 0 hit against you most of the time) is irrelevant as both rely on the mt of daggers and crits to kill anyway and Yunaka crits more anyway, +canter. Specifically for the Byleth build I don't see how the combat matters more than having canter and favourite food lol. I do just generally think Yunaka is better based on using them both in the same pt because canter is huge and I never found Zelkov was hitting benchmarks that Yunaka couldn't, they doubled the same enemies, killed the same enemies, but Yuna crit 1.5 per 10 attacks more enemies than Zelkov, but w/e.

[@orcishgreenland5690]

​@@FUTBALLZAK ​ I dunno how you four star the well consistently early on without throwing away pretty much everything you own, or even how you do it consistently later without spending all your money, but maybe that's just a me problem and I'm just too conservative. On the subject of Yunaka's earlygame, she ORKOs mages in chapter 7 easily but requires a +2 steel, Marth, a tonic, and Alear in order to ORKO cavaliers (juggle the others as you wish if you use a +3 steel instead). Other people provided with similar support can also do this, such as 10/1 Griffin Chloe with an early Levin or 10/1 Vidame Celine with Celica (Anna's paralogue has a master seal). Yunaka's ability to ORKO at 1-2 early is not necessarily unique. I'd honestly argue that ORKOs in chapter 7 aren't even that important aside from fliers which bows OHKO anyways. There aren't too many enemies, so it's not hard to shove through them even without ORKOs and still be making good forward progress every turn. In chapter 8, what is she fighting? The left side is the Diamant and Amber show, and they can chip through stuff there without needing to ORKO. The right side has a bunch of 16 speed sword units, and good luck doubling those. Heavily invested Yunaka can ORKO the corrupted fighters, but Seraphim exists, and the slower pegs, but the ballista exists. She gets the three mages, I suppose. Also she can chip Kagetsu for free which is neat but not really exemplary (I just Lodestar down Zelkov). Chapter 9 is just more of the same: peg knights archers all OHKO, axe fighters any fast unit can double and ORKO, and speedy enemies that she isn't really better against than someone like Amber. Kagetsu and Zelkov shatter to pretty much any engage attacks so they aren't even a concern, and there's a lot of armors she does next to nothing to. I have difficulty seeing her as particularly far above the rest of the available units here. I don't see how Zelkov's strength lead doesn't matter if thieves are relying on a dagger's Mt and crits. If Zelkov has +2 strength over Yunaka, he's getting a dagger forge for free, and +2 damage is +6 on a crit. Zelkov's evasion is better off terrain and against mages because of his personal while it's functionally identical on terrain. Yunaka crits more than Zelkov on terrain and nowhere else, and, as I mentioned, terrain gets sparser the further into the game you go. Plus, as I also mentioned, if you want a covert unit that hits crazy critrates, you can just use a sniper (Corrin engrave + Killer Bow + No Distractions + Wrath) and then you don't even need to worry about terrain! If you're going off of the benchmark of "who crits more", literally any sniper is a better choice than either of them for the role, so just toss, I dunno, Etie some combination of Canter / Favorite Food / Wrath instead and you get a unit who does the exact same things but doesn't have to rely on terrain for combat. Additionally, my point was that Zelkov's combat in thief is bad because thief combat is bad. Take Zelkov out of thief and his combat improves dramatically thanks to his good strength, defense, and build (all things Yunaka can't claim). Any combat you get in thief can almost certainly be found better for cheaper elsewhere. Past all that, there's still the issue of thieves in general being an offensive liability lategame. Enemies get too bulky and too fast for doubling and critting to become reliable in a class with such low strength, especially when you're already stretching your skill slots thin with utility choices. I mentioned Yunaka's lategame damage output suffering tremendously and that a reclassed Zelkov does not have that problem, both of which are things that I have experienced personally. Yunaka / Roy was a desperate bid to salvage her combat, and it didn't work because thief combat SUCKS lategame. If all you want is a covert unit to spam Favorite Food / Goddess Dance, I have difficulty seeing how she does the job better than Alcryst, who has a better personal for reliable damage and whose stratospheric Dex lets him reach similarly good crit rates anyways, or Etie, whose strength means she doesn't need a heavily forged dagger to do meaningful damage, or even thief Alear, who can help with role compression by taking on this utility role and opening a spot for other units. If her only advantage is SP and the well is overflowing with it as you describe, does she really have an advantage at all? Side note: if Yunaka and Zelkov are performing the same (doubling the same enemies / killing the same enemies) but Yunaka is critting more, then the crits don't actually matter for anything besides style.

[@del_ty9005]

Hello I come to do Clanne propaganda for low effort filler. the main complains that people bring is his starting level and his magic growth. His magic growth can be fixed with spirit dust in which His only competition for that is Celine in which Clanne beats Her in speed and dex, You can make him your early Levin sword user forging it with the steel sword you get from the update bonus, and another thing that helps him with his damage out put is Eirika Bravery skill (+3 or +5 if is bravery +) and thanks He is quite fast he will get +10 damage most of the time allow him to still one rounding alot of enemies and sice Eirika is a ring that you mostly only want her skills is not a problem to give him Eirika. His level is not a problem at all thanks with his really good bases basically putting Alear in shambles with a better offensive stat and better speed, another comparison is Celine who only beat him by one in magic and speed with 4 levels of difference so is not hard for Clanne to actually do damage and get kills, and also is early game Engage you get Math Mercurius, Celica Recover, and Micahiah everything to get units ready to promote before you get your first master seal, The best way to resolve this problem is by making Clanne your early Marh user, He one more chapter to use him compare to Chloe and you get the same value because most enemies and specially the bosses have low resistace. Another argument I hear is that if you invest in him you waste that instead of better unit, and for that i have this to say, Celine just has worse offensive potential than Clanne, Citrinne has better magic but no speed (She also made of soaked paper) so even if She promote to mage khight she will still had a hard time doubleing enemies and gets completely out classed by Pandreo, Anna will take time to get going and also gets outclassed by Pandreo and speaking of Pandreo Clanne will have a speed advantage and also provably already unlocked Chaos style so Pandreo is better in Sage than Mage Khight. Clanne will be the fastest mage khight and thats is the most easy to get going and stays relevant for the entire game. So basically his plan is use Marth from chapter 4 to 10, learn +3bld from Leif then Speedtaker from Lyn, stay with a bond ring until you get Eirika on Chapter 16 and thats all. He will kill a lot of low res enemies and double the entire map thanks to speedtaker, He can also help with wyrms and corrupted in general thanks to his decent Strength and the calvarly bonus of Dual strike And as a little bonus he is also a good Warrior, Hero, Wolf Khight, Griffing Khight, Paladin, thanks to his good streng, dex and speed, and since he comes in level 1 He can actually reclass in to a basic class instead of waiting to reach level 10 promote and then reclass like Anna, Celine, Alear, Louis, Amber, etc. but that build requires more investment but still has a lot of value. Sorry for the lot of text.

[@Coreyographed]

With all due respect friend, that doesn’t sound like “low effort” filler, having to dedicate Marth from Chapters 4-10 when there are other units who would prefer to have him that give a better return on investment. I’m not arguing that you can’t make him good, heck I run Jade every single playthrough and she’s in the Project tier, but I don’t know that Clanne is “low effort.”

[@del_ty9005]

@@Coreyographed for my experience i feel he is on par with Chloe as a marth user both can double most enemies and will do mostly the same damage then they become a 6mov unit that use the levin sword really well, the only difference i see is their level but i usually have Clanne at lv 10 ready to promote around chapter 6. I dont feel you get the same value with other early units, Alear has worse stats over all and you should just make sure to level him up to 10 before chapter 11 and focus in other units, Etie just make her not get double by enemies and a secure kills with fliers, Alfred is kinda the same as Etie, boucheron can be decent because of his base strength and decent Speed but he will not do as well with the early bosses, but maybe i missing something. The reason i feel he should be in Low effort is because he gets better results than Celine with the same amount of investment. Also you will probably invest only in 4 units of the early game mainly because you only get 3 master seals before chapter 10 and so the unpromoted units will be stuck with worse growths and with a higher internal level so they will have a harder time getting their class skills after they finally promote, also the reduced deploy units of the solm arc doesn't help.

[@nacitalatincirli793]

Wait, why bravery? Doesn’t switching to ephiram also remove the lunar brace of everyone in the map??? And also if the plan is just to make him a levin sword user why not just do it with Celine who has a special class that also lets her use tomes:..?

[@del_ty9005]

@@nacitalatincirli793 yes but you can engage and solve the problem with eclipse brace (i think that was the name) also usually the only other unit that has lunar brace is my Lucina martial master Alear that is mainly in healing, chain guard duty so not having lunar brace for one turn was never really a problem.

[@manzenshaaegis8783]

I still have a hard disagree with your list... but to each their own I guess.

[@Yossarian819]

Anna takes no effort, I just don't get this. You can get her to level 10 easily and promote to warrior and second seal to mage knight or sage and she will be your best magic user by far, its just not even close. You could even leave her as warrior and use radiant bow. You talked alot about changing people to warrior and leave out Etie... a archer you have to use and can easily get to level 10 prior to alcaryst, from there she can become your premier warrior, until you get pannette. As a warrior and her higher str growth, she is just so much more useful at killing fliers than alcaryst or most of your early units and can use melee weapons. Leaving out when you get access to a character for a tier list is just wrong.

[@ThePurpleKnightmare]

Okay I'm going to try to not focus on units that have been placed too high, like overrated Kagetsu. However there are 2 exception because they are so atrociously placed that I have to call it out. First off Vander. Awful Jagen, not Titania/Seth level, he is seriously bad. His personal skill is completely worthless, and not even the best version of it, as Framme has a better version of his skill. Yunaka, Panette, Lindon, Nel and Rafal all give better crit skills as well. On top of all that, Vander's base class is trash. Cavalry in Engage kind of suck, their movement is great sometimes, but fliers are better, and get better bonuses. Even if you do commit to Cavalry though, there are a few Wolf Knight's who are better and Alfred is the best Horse user in the game. Which brings me to the next character. Vanders passive works with Alear, but Alear sucks. Everything good about Alear is the fact that she is Dragon type. All other aspects of this character are out performed so drastically it's not worth using her unless you're forced to. NOW YOU ARE. However that doesn't make the unit good. The tier is called "Always Strong Deploys" you take out "Strong" and Alear does belong in that tier, but Alear is basically a support character with awful proficiencies for a support character. The whole purpose of Alear is to be protected and boost allies. However class changing her isn't even a great idea because then you lose your dragon bonuses. Okay now for characters that are way too low. Jade. Jade is effortlessly good. An equal to Louis. Both are near invincible and with the right build using Hectors Riposte+ they lose 1 of their 2 weaknesses as units. They're also both armored, and great skills. Generals are always underrated in Fire Emblem, this is no exception, but Generals got buffed hard in Engage, because of Hector, as well as being 1 of the only classes with a good class skill. Timerra is of course way better than you give her credit for. This comes from Sandstorm, I mentioned how bad class skills are in this game, so having a good class skill makes you better than those who don't. If any other unit goes Hero/Halberdier they get garbage skills. Hero is somewhat useable but it requires full hp. In other words, if you can make good use of hero, you don't need it, the game isn't threatening you enough for you to care what you're running. Aside from that Timerra isn't too special, she's just a really good class type with a really good class skill. Unlike all the other backup classes. Next you have Anna, Alfred and Etie in high effort. Personally I do agree with Anna being kind of high effort, but she's such an important character that it feels bad to see her in a "low tier" She's a must have unit, WHOM if you do use, you drastically improve your army overall since you have a lot more cash to spend. If Anna takes more effort personally but decreases effort across the army, then she's not really high effort, overall effort spent lowers. Alfred is underrated, ofc, he's a defensive unit. People undervalue defense in PvE games and at low ratings in PvP games, this is so ingrained in humanity that just like generals I expect it. However Alfred is decent. The best Cavalry unit in the game, which is still the worst class type but like, it has it's strengths and he is good at being it. As for Etie, she is so low effort I don't understand how you put her here. She's an Archer, so there is always going to be the issue of running Archers, but like she is such a good one, so strong, she hits so high. She is weaker than Alcryst but not by much, She's a stronger unit with a worse class skill. Alcryst is low effort, Etie is low effort, the two belong together in the same way Jade and Louis do. Lastly we have Goldmary, you just seem to disrespect the backup classes as a whole. You make them into Trinkets, then you judge them as if they can only be trinkets. What makes Goldmary so good is her enemy phase potential. A lot of units will tank or they will dodge. Yunaka can get super dodgey in smoke+trees and Jade/Louis can be invincible to physical damage, while Hortensia can be invincible to magic damage. However all of these units have ways around their durability, that you can kill them, and none of them mix any durability. Hortensia goes down to physical so easily, Generals drop to magic in 1 round, Yunaka can be outright one shot. Goldmary though, while equipped with Corrin, and utilizing skills from other emblems to improve enemy phase like say Solar Brace or any dodge/durability buff can summon earth terrain around her and enemy phase so well with it. She's got 1-2 Range and tons of crit, but her mixed bulk of all adequate-somewhat strong levels is what makes her so amazing. Men sacrifice themselves to her because they're so unworthy, while the enemy females struggle to get through her healing. When you start class changing every unit becomes more effort, and some can become classes like Hero or General to try and dethrone the ones I've uptalked today, but they aren't worth, it really all comes down to personal skills and most don't have significantly better personal skills for those classes than the ones already in those classes.

[@cartooncritic7045]

Anna's base luck of 3 is not going to be helping your gold economy any more than just buying the DLC for the instant 30k would give you at the start of Chapter 4. Even if her growth is high the odds don't affect your income that much across a whole playthrough. Very odd to describe Anna as "a very important character."

[@Edgeperor]

“Generals are always underrated in Fire Emblem” ok