Engine Out on new Thor 202 - What happened?

[@balkan_pil0t]

Did you find out the root cause?

[@dnorthup65]

Yep. Blown piston. I was using 91 octane pump fuel in California which has up to 10% ethanol. Not sure if the ethanol had anything to do with it but the 91 octane is the lowest "allowed" by Polini in the owners manual. I asked a lot of questions on the Facebook Thor 202 owner's group and I think it was detonation due to low octane. I've replaced the piston, rings, gaskets, wrist pin & clips, installed 116 jet and clip on 3rd position, started using 100LL, EGT tuned. 3 flights now with EGT temps in the proper range. I'm monitoring the EGT temps in flight and trusting (for now) that the CHT temps are in the right range. Tested CHT on the ground during tuning and sampled it right after landing the other day and everything was good there but I think I'll run a Fly Henry PPG monitor so I can see both EGT and CHT in flight. Here's a link to my FB post on the final tuning. facebook.com/1656785241/videos/1005063720211993/

[@majooo]

@@dnorthup65 hi. iam majo from slovak republic. iam also flying on 202 thor. i have carb in stock but changed jet for 122. i also using just 100octane fuel, never less. minimum is 95. maybe you have poor mixture in your engine. for next time you should try to messure ečxhaust temperature for to be sure about your gas temperature :-) i hope that i help you :-) have a lot of nice flights

[@ooglek]

@@dnorthup65 Damn, that sucks. I have been using 93 octane non-ethanol, adding some Sea Foam, and using 2.5% mix of AMSOIL SABER. I also have some Rislone 4747 handy if I can only get 90 or 91 non-ethanol fuel to bump it up by 2 octane (20 points). Rislone says you cannot double it though, e.g. put in double does not get you 4 octane extra! I've only used Rislone in 1 5 gallon jug, but no issues yet at 95 hours on the Thor 202. Any issues since you replaced your piston? And have you changed to another fuel source?

[@ooglek]

@@majooo 95 Octane in the EU is the same as 91 Octane US. Same fuel, but different ways to measure the octane. However, in the US we use up to 10% Ethanol in most vehicle gas, whereas in the EU is peaks at 5% I believe. US 93 Octane is EU 98 Octane.

[@majooo]

@@ooglek you are not right. In eu (slovak republic) we have also e10 fuel. Just shell V power or omw 100 octane fuel has 5%. Every each 95octane has 10%ethanol :/

[@ParamotorSteve]

Well done handling of your motor out. I work really hard about keeping my "outs" reachable when flying. When I do finally have my first motor out, I hope I'll execute a good landing like you did in this video!

[@lt.dansparamotoradventures2592]

Good job remaining calm. Nice landing

[@fbrummitt]

Excellent execution!!! I wish I was using my go pro when I ran out of gas. I knew it was likely so I kept my altitude around 500’. I only needed about 5 minutes of fuel to get back to my LZ. 40:1 sounds super rich, I run 60:1 per the manual on my Moster 185 factory R.

[@dnorthup65]

The mix on the Polini Thor 202 is per the manual. It only uses about 4.5L/hr where my moster 185 was 6L/hr. or so. Less fuel consumption but they want a richer mix for it.

[@STAYBAD]

good landing and great job at focusing on your way down instead of panicking

[@dnorthup65]

Thanks! Now I just have to patch up the hole in my piston and I'll be back in the air. :)

[@Ewmansour]

David! I am so glad you gained some altitude before the engine decided to quit! Glad you are ok. Great landing!!

[@dnorthup65]

Thanks Eli! Glad it worked out. Hope to fly with you again soon (PPG or your whip if you're near F70 sometime.) :)

[@slodays1158]

Perfect landing.

[@pauls.2526]

Cool head makes a safe landing.👍

[@dnorthup65]

Thanks! Always something to learn though. In looking back at the video, I found wind direction clues that would have given me a better landing. in the moment @ 1:18, I was getting my bearings for North/South/East/West and the wind direction I observed during my launch which was about 3 miles away and 15 minutes earlier. I made assumptions about wind direction and best landing path based on the memory of my launch. In looking back at it, I realize I completely ignored the launching balloons right there where the engine died. @ 2:06 the Pirate Balloon was telling me (along with the rest of the launching tarps for the other balloons) I was going downwind when I thought I was cross-wind. (Balloons will always launch and land with the envelope downwind from the basket.) This was a crosswind landing which is why the wing veered off to the right at touchdown and landed on the leading edge. Worked out okay but next time I'll take another 2 or 3 seconds to look for local wind telltales while formulating my landing plan.

[@drewcummins7836]

New subscriber from the valley myself. Just found your channel looking forward to the content

[@dnorthup65]

Thanks Drew! Do you fly? Thanks for watchin!

[@drewcummins7836]

@@dnorthup65 I don't but I live in the valley. I see a few ultra lights around French valley airport. My uncle's a pilot so I'm thinking about taking some classes

[@aussieparamotorman9931]

Nicely done with the landing procedure. I’m not familiar with this engine but my guess is that it somehow may have leaned itself out….

[@dnorthup65]

Hole in the piston. I knew the 303 has had some issues with it but didn't think the 202 was part of that club. guess I'm checking warranty cards....

[@krzysztofbartnik]

Welcome to my world 😀

[@johngt1718]

OMG 😳! Glad you are okay David. Let us know what happened to your engine when you find out. Did you had to walk back to your car?

[@dnorthup65]

Will do John! Uber'd back to my truck and then drove my truck back to my gear to load up. Not bad at all.

[@ericmartens8064]

David, I just came across your channel yesterday. I live in the Temecula/Murrieta area and have been wanting to get into Paramotoring but I don’t know what areas are good to fly in. I have heard about Beaumont but looking for others. Any advice or recommendations on training? Keep up the great content. Glad you landed safe.

[@dnorthup65]

Danielo Staybad is offering instruction in SoCal. Others are farther away like Team Fly Halo, Noah & Nik w/ Epic Paramotor and Aviator (in Florida). If you want to come watch before you train, let me know (northupdavid on Instagram). Happy to show you where I fly in Temecula.

[@ericmartens8064]

@@dnorthup65 thanks so much for the info. I’d definitely be interested in seeing where you fly in Temecula. Let me know when and where and I’ll be there. I really appreciate your response and the content.

[@AurelioTonchei]

Premium 91 octane ?!?!?

[@dnorthup65]

Yep. Mixed the night before....

[@Para_Ninja]

I have no idea but I can say 40:1 is very rich.. I caused my Minari 200 all sorts of grief by running it on 40:1 for 30+hrs before I read the manual where it said only do 40:1 for the first 2 break in hours and after that switch to 50:1 or 60:1 (I now run 50:1) but that long period of 40:1 really gunked everything up especially my decompression port. Is there tons of oil dripping out of your exhaust joints? On top of that I also was running the H tuning knob a full 60 minutes too rich because I mistook it for an idle adjustment. It might be worth investing $20 is a cheap boroscope that you can view on your phone to check the piston situation. Hope its not the carb as they are a major headache to disassemble and redo correctly. I doubt that is the issue however as the engine seemed to die too quickly but it could be a knock on effect from the 40:1. If it was me my first go to in your situation is pull the spark plug and check the spark plug and replace it just to be sure. Next step would be fuel.. make sure you can smell fuel from the spark plug hole. Check the prop can spin freely and starter disengages and then check the drive belt.. Overall don't feel too bad, I fly with a bunch of guys here in Norcal and were all constantly having issues across all brands and types.

[@ooglek]

Polini advises 40:1 (2.5%) for the Thor 202, not just the first hours, but forever.

[@Para_Ninja]

@@ooglek Who are we to argue with the gods of engineering.. I read the comments on reddit seemed pretty solid, I really hope you figure it out and let us all know. If you are ever in Norcal get in touch and we will fly together.

[@dnorthup65]

@@Para_Ninja Thanks! Yep. Pulled the plug. Borescope shows hole in the piston. I'm suspecting a bad gasket & coolant leak into the cylinder or something sudden that gave way. Just have to figure out how to diagnose it properly and account for it in the rebuild.

[@ooglek]

@@Para_Ninja hahaha spot on. I'm sure that the exact amount is more of a range and depends on how people fly and where and in what weather. Because I want the Polini warranty, I'm gonna stick with 40:1 until I'm out of warranty! I hope that the 202 issue David had has a root cause, something we might be able to easily pre-flight or at least check somehow. I'll be checking the coolant level before and after (after it is cooled off) every flight now!

[@Parafoolary]

did you find out what happened

[@dnorthup65]

Not yet. I'll look at it this week and see what's up.

[@ooglek]

DOH! Sorry mate. I have the same motor, 11 hours on it. Hope to learn what the root cause was. I know a lot of Thor 202 owners say to put the temperature sensor in the Engine Gas slot rather than the coolant. Mine runs a lot hotter than yours, I'm still trying to tune it. When you say "motor would not turn over" do you mean you could not spin the motor with the pull cord? If yes, then yeah, probably seized up, but from your temp gauge, seemed within reasonable temps. How warm or cold was it when you were flying? What were your last 3 flights like, any extreme ambient temperatures? If you could pull the cord but the engine wouldn't start, then the motor isn't seized, which is great! Could be a ground wire that shorted out. The audio at first sounds like a kill switch / ground short, but there was also a secondary blip 1 second after. Not sure if that was like a backfire from being at wide open throttle (WOT) to kill, or something else. No visible damage? For those who do NOT own an Polini Thor 202, 40:1 (2.5%) is the manufacturer recommended oil ratio.

[@dnorthup65]

thanks man! It was about 15° C or 60° F ambient temp. No extreme temps on previous flights . . . . All in the 60s and 70s. I used a borescope and I see a hole in the piston. with the temps in normal operating range for this motor & a visible drop in the coolant level in the radiator (looks like it's down about 5/8 of an inch), I'm suspecting a bad gasket & coolant leak into the cylinder or something sudden that gave way. Just have to figure out how to diagnose it properly and account for it in the rebuild. Just sucks to have this happen to an engine with 20 or 25 hours on it.

[@ooglek]

@@dnorthup65 ARGH! So sorry about the hole. THAT SUCKS!!! I've been using 93 octane non-ethanol gas, and I just purchased some octane booster additive to avoid the premature combustion due to compression. Aye, a bad gasket could cause an issue with coolant into the engine. I don't know how to check or measure that though! I do check my coolant level before every flight, maybe I should do the same AFTER every flight. It may be that the Exhaust Gas Temperature would have indicated the impending failure, rather than the coolant temperature. I'm going to move my sensor to the EGT side and see what temps I'm seeing in hopes that I can better tune my carb. It's running fine (maybe a bit hot) at idle, hot at midrange (5500-6500), and fine at full blast (WOT). I hope you can get it fixed and back up in the air soon. I for one will be VERY interested in your diagnosing and rebuilding process and costs. I'm gonna go inspect my head now too. So sorry David! It's SUCH a soul-sucking moment when your engine dies and you know you won't fly again for a while.

[@solansys]

The 303 almost killed me, what garbage engines!!!

[@dnorthup65]

I moved on. No more polini for me.

[@solansys]

@@dnorthup65 well done

[@JPTulo]

Well that was very sudden and definitive. 😱 Are you not able to restart in the air? I see so many videos where people don’t even try to restart in the air and I don’t understand why not. I understand it wasn’t going to restart with a hole in the piston but still worth a try unless you aren’t able to reach the pull start in the air? Looks like you handled yourself well in a stressful situation though 🙌🪂

[@dnorthup65]

JP in the HOUSE! Hey there. On the ground I can 1-hand the 202. Seated in the air, I've restarted before but I need to turn a bit in my seat and get two hands on it. When I restarted before it was after a few wingovers, the engine was at idle and then it stalled. I restarted no problem. This was a quick cutoff at full RPMs. My first guess was plug wire or something electrical... With the altitude I had, I decided to trouble shoot it on on the ground. Restart is normally my first choice though (I hate laying out my wing with all my winter gear on - I start sweating all over - not pretty). :)

[@JPTulo]

@@dnorthup65 You and me both! It’s so difficult to dress to be comfortable at altitude without being extremely hot on the ground 🥵

[@JPTulo]

@@dnorthup65 Hope you get your engine sorted quickly btw!

[@12vibaba]

On that altitude you don't try to start the engine, you commit to landing. if you fixate on starting the engine, you make critical mistakes. There is no time. KZbin is full of examples of this stupid rooky mistake. David did the only right thing.

[@JPTulo]

@@12vibaba I don’t think he made the wrong call, but I’m not sure you can say he did the only right thing. Once you get your trims sorted and point yourself towards a safe plot of land, there’s nothing wrong with giving it a few rips to see if you can avoid landing on unfamiliar terrain and a long walk home. I’ve restarted from