Yes HEMA really is DEAD - A response to ‎@scholagladiatoria

[@scholagladiatoria]

Aikido LOL Good response. I have some further thoughts on this, which I may commit to video. However, coming back to the aikido/x-factor point, I would riposte on behalf of HEMA by pointing out that in sparring and competition, we basically wipe the floor with most Japanese sword practitioners, almost all Chinese MA, and hold up well against modern fencing and FMA. We have a lot of people come from other weapon-based MA to train with us in HEMA, and compete against us, and we're on the same level or above. So I don't think HEMA is broken in the sense of effectiveness. I basically think that if anyone wants to train weapon-based martial arts of any kind, from knife to bayonet, sword to spear, then HEMA is currently at the top of the list for effectiveness. And I think we should boast about that more :-)

[@EnglishMartialArts]

That's fair. But your group and thus also the groups you hang out with the most might well be above average which might sway your opinion on HEMA's general effectiveness.

[@MarcRitzMD]

Any HEMA guy won olympic gold in fencing yet? I wouldn't expect a wrestler to do well competitively in sumo when he goes to Japan. Nor would I expect a Kendo guy to do well at HEMA competitions in England. The true test of any armed martial artist is at LARP. Or at least that's what Shadiversity would claim

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@MarcRitzMD well I think that's one opinion we can happily ignore.

[@owenli7180]

I think the weakness of @scholagladiatoria's argument (and really, an impossible thing to prove or disprove) is that we can only gauge the ability of HEMA and other MA practitioners against their contemporaries. I studied a couple Chinese and Japanese for years, and was frustrated at the lack of sparring etc. The last few years, I've been boxing. I came to the realisation that the value of combat sports wasn't their 1:1 transfer of skills, but that they teach you the ABCs (distancing, angles, timing, defensive movement, feel) of fighting much faster, and more concretely. Makes me think how inadequate even the most skilled of us would be against someone from the age when sword-dominated combat was at its height. Those people fought wars with blades from a very young age, and lived far more physical/violent lives than most modern humans. Says a lot that wrestling gave them an edge even back then. Sure, we might be able to train "smarter" today, but I don't think there's a substitute for lived experience.

[@davidemelia6296]

-So I don't think HEMA is broken in the sense of effectiveness.- It's broken insofar as it's divorced from its origins - people aren't killing each other with swords any more (in that context)! And there's not even the argument that 'well, practicing with swords in this way WOULD translate into fighting with swords' ... because, again, people aren't killing each other with swords any more ...

[@nathangiles3357]

I think there's a couple different perspectives here that probably just fundamentally won't line up with each other. If we're talking about a student who sets out with the earnest desire to study the art exactly as it was practiced in the middle ages (this was my perspective going into HEMA), then learning grappling skills absolutely makes sense. Beyond mentality and physical conditioning, it also teaches important technical skills such as leverage and positioning that directly translates into such things as what to do when your weapons come to a bind. Liechtenauer's concept of Fuhlen is just as important in wrestling as his longsword system. However, Matt made an excellent point in his video that there are only so many hours in a day, and if your goal is simply to have fun with swords once a week or to compete in HEMA blossfechten competitions, spending hours of your limited free time training grappling is probably not going to be a priority to you. There are a lot of Brazilian Jujitsu gyms I've seen that have a similar problem, where practitioners would benefit from spending more time practicing standing grappling like old school Judo, but usually just want to have fun rolling on the matts. Ultimately, it's hard to force these people to train the stuff they're not as interested in.

[@inregionecaecorum]

Waiting to see the pair of you on Street Beefs.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

There are a few people I'd like to be on there with, but probably not Matt. I'd love to get him on the mats at wrestling or BJJ though.

[@CowcaticalChris]

Quick historical supporting note on your point at about 3:30 about accepting a minor wound to do something more damaging: "Greve not gretly þov þu be tochyd a lyte ffor ā aftr stroke ys betr yf þu dar hy̆ smyte" (Grieve not greatly though thou be touched a light for an after stroke is better if thou dare him smite). From Man Yt Wol in MS Harley 3542.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Good call, I'd forgotten that line, but it's pretty clear isn't it!

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

Not much of concequence to add, but after I watched your initial video in this exchange, I saw another titled "Proper Sword Grip: The Living Hand," by Federico Mallaguti. The thought occurred to me that, if you can grip your opponent's arm in a grapple, you can grip a sword, and probably more easily read them by feel when in a bind as when in a hold. I remember it being pointed out in a judo class in college (much too long ago) that one's reactions trigfered by sense of touch are much quicker that by sense of sight. It is no replacement for sword practice, but it is fundamental, I think. Oh, and bloody awesome thumbnail. FIGHT TEAM!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I've been saving that picture for a special occasion!

[@itsgorani9133]

I did judo for many years as a kid and teenager and that has schooled some things that still comes as a reflex: ways of falling down, without hurting myself, keeping center of gravity low so it is hard to tipp me over, moving the body behind blows to generate force and when it comes to sword play ... it tend to get into close measure instead of taking a step back.

[@nonsequitor]

Absolutely....sooo many broken bones avoided!

[@EdwinHofstra]

I recommend all my friends with children to put those in judo class at a young age, when they're still light enough to enjoy all the tumbling about, for the sole purpose of self defense against gravity and traffic bumps.

[@epremeaux]

@@EdwinHofstra I love that motivation. If we consider the crime statistics vs the total population, the vast majority of us may still go through life without ever encountering or being a victim of crime. Others, quite frequently (I absolutely feel for convenience store clerks). gravity, however, is a constant. It cares not for you status in life, your riches, or your friends. A close second to that ruthlessness is a careless person behind the wheel, or your own carelessness crossing the street without looking.

[@JaredClaunch]

I coach at a Muay Thai gym, People who come from wrestling backgrounds have such a good grasp on the little nuances of fighting that usually take a year or more for people to pick up on.

[@JaredClaunch]

For example: controlling distance, Disrupting rhythm, manipulating your opponents balance, using feints and setups, etc

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Exactly!

[@epremeaux]

I would argue the same could be observed by anyone who came from a boxing or kendo background, or any interactive martial art (as in, does regular sparring as part of their training).

[@epremeaux]

And if someone from a Muay Thai background started wrestling, the other wrestlers would comment on the fact that they seem to have a good grasp of these same topics.

[@micahboswell4000]

I love it when two mature grown men can have an intellectual disagreement without things becoming hostel. You and Matt are always respectful, methodical, and well spoken, not to mention you do your research.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you.

[@chrisbricky7331]

Matt is the least respectful person I have ever seen on the internet and is nothing more than a woke virtue signaling weak individual with no spine. Back stabbing people so he can then pretend he is some sort of moral person. Sad and there is a very damning level of hell people like him deserve to be placed in. I followed him for years as well as many others. Then he stabbed Shad in the back, without talking to him about the issue. You don't do that if you are a good individual. Then to top it off he posted about it so everyone could see his virtue. When in reality it was just his narcissism he was displaying and his post just highlighted what a despicable individual he truly is. No person should ever work with him again until he makes it right with Shad. He deserves no mention or time on anyone else's channel and deserves to be shamed until he finally does the right thing. I can think of no more cowardly an act as to stab someone publicly in the back on the internet that you have worked for years with. Matt knows Shad's kids. Which makes this a hall of shame moment. How anyone can praise this total venal sap is beyond me. I don't stand with Shad or his version of morals either. But what Matt did was beyond the pale and he deserves to never be praised for anything at this point. You don't reward people that have behaved this badly. Until they ask for and our granted forgiveness by the people they have hurt and done so very publicly. Chris

[@zaldrizerme7015]

I'm trying to understand how this channel's objectively false rage-bait content regarding HEMA falls into the category of "respectful" or "methodical". 'Tis neither.

[@jonasbarka]

I think you are right in wrestling being highly beneficial for most fencing. But I think Matt is right in that it's not necessary, and if the goal is to get good at fencing you should spend most your time doing that. The thing I feel you are missing is that many (of the earlier) masters basing their teachings on wrestling is probably a product of their environment. They had themselves grown up with it and it was an integral part of the culture. Many (maybe most) of their pupils could be expected to know at least a bit of wrestling. It was convenient basis for them to build on. Do you think there is any merit in this? All this said, I want more wrestling in HEMA. Not primarily for us to become better fencers, but because it in itself is a *very* important historical European martial art.

[@kcwliew]

​@@RandomGuy-lu1en Exactly. I didn't know anything about HEMA - follow this guy because I'm a grappler and interested in his thoughts on catch/bjj/judo etc... I did some searches on grappling in HEMA. What became obvious was: a. Grappling exchanges happen ALL the time in HEMA - much like in boxing or other ranged arts. When you're close your immediate instinct is to start grabbing the other guy. b. HEMA people are utterly, laughably terrible at it - aside from one video with 3 million views where a guy gets picked up and body slammed - and loads of people complain in the comments - that's NOT cricket!!! c. HEMA people aren't practicing a combat sport - they're having fun waving swords about - nothing wrong with that - just call it what it is. Historically, people cared about winning REAL fights with REAL consequences. Just on a purely physical perspective if you were going into a real fight you'd make sure you were physically prepared, wrestling does that for you. If you can pick up another human being and slam them into the ground then your axe or sword is going to do that much more damage. You're not going to run out of steam and flag after 20 seconds of waving your sword around - you might well be fighting non-stop for hours - Battle doesn't stop when you're tired but when you win? You'll be faster, more mobile. AND when you get closer you're not going to be fumbling around like what seems to happen all the time in HEMA. The reason why Judo calls an IPPON an IPPON is derived from the battlefield and can be achieved with a throw of amplitude, pinning someone or chokes and joint locks. If I get you onto the ground your sword becomes useless, your chances of survival especially if you don't know what to do, are significantly decreased. In HEMA it seems to me that as soon as someone hits the ground they stand them back up without any consequences?

[@mathewallison8815]

With great respect, I must point out the problem with the claim that HEMA is way more popular than Kenjutsu, fencing or Kendo (etc.). HEMA is a very VERY broad term, whereas Kenjutsu and especially Kendo/fencing is in reference to something far more narrowly specific. It would be more accurate to compare the popularity of HEMA (an umbrella term) with Eastern Martial Arts (another umbrella term). Or comparing the popularity of a specific discipline like William Hope's Smallsword with that of Shinto Muso Ryu. My point is that I agree HEMA is growing, but it is an incredibly diverse term that includes so many different systems, many of which have little to nothing to do with each other. Probably not right to use the collective weight of that word against more specific examples of Eastern Martial Arts. Sorry to be pedantic about a word, but Matt made a pretty big confident claim there, and he referred to HEMA as a "martial arts style"...

[@resolvedinsteel]

I grew up wrestling. Never in a club or a team, but I wrestled my brothers, I wrestled my friends, I wrestled my cousins, it was a common and perfectly entertaining way to pass the time and have some fun. Over time I've trained in a number of other disciplines including unarmed striking, jiu-jitsu, capoeira, and others before I ever ran into HEMA. Without T.V. video games, movies, or most other forms of entertainment I'd be willing to bet that most young men back in the day were well versed in wrestling, boxing and even stick fighting from similar experiences by the time the ever got to training with swords. Now a days it's a bit different. Many of the people that come to my club for the first time have done little or nothing in martial arts and they're already adults. The conundrum is... How does one give a person the pre-requisites of good body mechanics and physical understanding that they didn't develop when they were young? I don't feel like the answer is, "send them to a wrestling club". I think it's less about the wrestling specifically being what they need to learn, but more about needing a bit of cross training. Many of those things listed as what wrestling teaches are also taught through practicing fencing and in my experience someone well trained in one discipline will be able to carry over skills they learned to other disciplines. When I learned to speak Portuguese I learned many things that I'd never realized about English. I suspect it's the contrast that brings it to light, less than 1 being better than another for teaching this or that.

[@mikaluostarinen4858]

It might be a good idea for the beginners of any course, if a good wrestler grapples them down in the start. Not to humiliate them, not to show that wrestling is the ultimate art not the fencing, but to familiarise them with the physical aspects of martial arts world. I might have benefited from such experience in my arts, where tough physicality was lacking a long time.

[@jonasbarka]

@@mikaluostarinen4858This is my view as well. The earlier manuscripts often refers to wrestling as most of the students knew at least the basics. It is a good base, but not required and or necessarily the best if looked at in a vaccum.

[@DctrBread]

Very wise, and in fact adds good context to the way wrestling was praised in history. Some form of wrestling is always how humans and many animals learn to fight, and we're talking about cultures who we assume didn't have as much freedom to spar at full intensity with practice weapons. I do definitely support the idea that if you wanna get good at sword fighting in the hema context, definitely don't make people wait till they've graduated from wrestling school. You train what you want to be good at, but indeed, hard wrestling should be supplemented so as to introduce people to responding fluidly to every position, to modulating the force they apply, and so-on. The number one thing is, honestly, wrestling definitely gives an appreciation of how differences in speed, pressure, leverage, and footing, all almost invisible to a third-person observer, are all vital context to the effectiveness of swordfighting techniques. Without this context, the move has a risk of being useless against a resisting opponent.

[@rikremmerswaal2756]

Although I think that arguments for learning how to wrestle are well thought thought just about all of the benefits listed around 3:42 can be learned through other exercises that most of the HEMA schools I know teach in their warming up routines or training drills.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I think the point here isn't that wrestling provides unique benefits that simply cannot be developed in any other way. Just that the people who we are supposed to be learning from say it's the best way.

[@formlessone8246]

​@@EnglishMartialArtsSome of them say it's the best. The rapier masters were split on whether it was useful at all. Even the earliest manual, I:33, doesn't contain much on the matter (though that might be expected from such an early text). Strength training will also make you a better fencer, for it makes you better at basically any martial art including if not especially grappling, but I don't think many people will say that the art as a whole is broken if most practitioners don't have time to go to the gym. It just means that they personally will be at a disadvantage to the practitioners who do make the time for it. I certainly think people should do it, but I think Matt's old Kung Fu teacher had a point; how MUCH time should we spend on it? If you choose to wrestle, at what point do you cease learning how to beat the average person and start learning particular tricks for beating other black belts and champions? If there are other training methods that achieve most of the same things as wrestling in a smaller time frame and with less risk of injury, I can't find myself blaming those who opt for a slightly anachronistic approach if they know it's anachronistic. I doubt we will even know for sure what exact methods the old masters used to train their students, since the manuals focus more on preserving the techniques. So some amount of anachronism is inevitable for that reason alone.

[@samb495]

You're obviously an expert in historical martial arts and in wrestling, but you're a MASTER at the art of clickbait titles. Bravo, you got me

[@majaimay]

Been training for just over 3 decades now in a variety of systems and one truth I've discovered is definitely that while both armed and unarmed systems translate various things to one another, one direction is significantly more effective than the other. Simply put unarmed combat is more difficult, less intuitive and requires one to develope a much more nuanced understanding of things like distance, body mechanics, leverage, angles, etc. etc. etc. 9 times out of 10 putting a weapon in the hand of a fighter trained exclusively in unarmed combat will yield, at the very least passably competent results whereas the opposite scenario is significantly less likely to work out well.

[@MrAlepedroza]

That's a bold, dubious claim, mate. It would be nice if you provided some quantifiable evidence for that assertion. Its akin to this meme which zoomers use to diss HEMA, claiming that what people actually did with the past was wrestling with swords and that "give an MMA fighter a sword and a couple lessons and he'll smash any swordsman"....which is beyond asinine. If such were the case, then the people who actually lived through the times when cold weapons where actually essential for combat and warfare would not have bothered to train warriors with weapons until they were of age after 15+years of training in unarmed combat. It would have been far less risky and cheaper for them to wrestle and punch each other than to teach them stick fighting, archery, foil fencing, mock up combat with wooden weapons....but it was the contrary. Whenever possible/affordable, they introduced the would-be- warriors to weapons and the conditioning required to use them as early as possible, unarmed combat being just a complement or hobby. And lets not forget that unarmed weapons systems, specially striking, evolved from ARMED systems. This is greatly why arts such as Pugilism, Danbe boxing, Jujutsu, Old Savate, Aikido, and Xing Yi look so unorthodox to modern strikers and grapplers...they were borne out of armed systems and their influence was still noticeable for a long time. Claiming that a weapons art practitioner would be so much worse than an unarmed practitioner venturing into armed systems is, therefore, dubious too. Sure, a longsword competitor with 7 years of experience might not fully feel at home when they step into a boxing gym at first. Get him to train Pugilism or Savate, on the other hand, and you may face a totally different outcome You get better at weapon fighting by training with weapons. As simple as that.

[@AngriestPeanut]

@@MrAlepedrozaErm…source? ☝️🤓

[@tobin9575]

​@@MrAlepedrozathe core difference is that the closer you get the less room for error you have, in dagger and grappling a mistake leads very quickly to a loss. With longer weapons with more reach usually you have more time to recover. That's how grappling is incredibly valuable. And the shorter the weapon the more likely you are to grapple.

[@Tkoutlosh]

@@tobin9575 Well, yeah, but this assumption totally forget about how badly can a really competent fencer destroy you before you can get that close. So no time for recover until you get another chance to try it, you're dead by now.

[@afterzanzibar]

I agree. Musashi said unarmed combat is the essence of strategy.

[@NoFormalTraining]

Something I remember reading in some books on Karate and Taekwondo way back when I was a kid, was that the reason so many martial arts were setup the way they were, was to allow the practitioners to get more experience in certain skill sets. In other words if you wanted to get really good at grappling you'd go to Jiujitsu classes, if you wanted to get good at kicking you'd go to Taekwondo, and if you wanted to have a good all round development the Taekwondo guy recommended taking up boxing to blend it and Taekwondo together as even he admitted his style was weak in that regard. Now not being a fencer, I'd have never really thought too much about the structure of the training being much beyond slicing, slashing, stabbing, thrusting, parrying with the blade and so on. I wouldn't expect to go to a fencing class and be taught punches or kicks let alone grappling - beyond maybe disarming methods to get a blade out of your opponents hand. Sounds like I'd be quite happily proven wrong.

[@kcwliew]

I don't know anything about HEMA. Never sparred with swords, but how is this even a matter for debate? Every military force of any note, up until the advent of firearms and even for quite sometime after, made wrestling a mandatory part of training. It's the art of dominating another human being with nothing but your own body. How is that not of fundamental usefulness to any martial artist? I think the answer is that its obviously the foundation upon which everything else needs to be built. No martial art is truly effective or complete without an understanding of grappling. Mixed martial arts has answered that question quite definitively. I think the reason why some HEMA people might push back against this is simply because they don't know how to wrestle. Its the same mindset that makes people bang on about how grappling is worthless in a street fight etc... ten minutes on the mats would immediately change their minds.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Well said.

[@davidemelia6296]

But seriously! Even back then, violence happened in a SOCIAL CONTEXT. For example, if you were called out by a nobleman's son, with swords, it may well have been better to disarm him of his sword and send him back home chastened, as opposed to killing him and making a mortal enemy of his rich and powerful father/family. I don't care how good a 'master of arms' was; that was something that any sane person would want to avoid if possible. That's what wrestling gives you - one, the ability to respond to real violence, two, the ability to respond to real violence with a greater tool-kit at your disposal, and and three, the ability to MODERATE that violence according to what is appropriate in a given context. This is still true today: I've had people try to stab/slash me with broken bottles at work in the past, and I was able to disarm them (I'm not bragging; they were drunk) and kick them out of the venue without having to do lasting injury to them and bringing a world of guilt and legal trouble down on my own head.

[@FriedEdd]

Did you use wrestling or something more like Sumo. Grabbing clothing and push rather than takedown etc. I don't disagree with with your initial statement about having more tools in your toolbox, but are the moves you used exclusive to just wrestling. I fear that this argument between you tubers is a bit about the improved general fitness of any training and if wrestling in general is useful in a sword fight. It is why so many people agree on both sides.

[@erobwen]

HEMA is dead by definition, and the HEMA people themselves killed it. Since HEMA people limit themselves to techniques that are only from the small selection of manuals that have survived from the middle ages, it ceases to be a live tradition, but is only a dead tradition. Instead of being an arena for courageous young men to try their strength and wit, HEMA has become a hobby for old men in ivory towers that sit and guard their old books, and cry "heresy" to anyone who strays away from their "truth". To be a live tradition, people should be able to invent new techniques and systems, like in MMA, that would give us heroes! That would be fun! Nobody cares about old men in ivory towers guarding their books! Because that is what the image of HEMA has become.

[@atom8248]

Plenty of people do exactly what you describe, as in, just make it up along the way, or, mix and match different sources. It can work great, the most important is the fundamentals. People with totally unrelated backgrounds have done great in hema, as fencing skills will apply even to other weapons, like people from FMA background, sport fencing, kendo, a girl even won a tournament in saber with just krabi krabong training I think (?) etc.

[@kuribo1]

Also saying there are more hema than places like kenjutsu or kendo. That maybe the case im the uk but it certainly is not in Japan. Every highschool has a kendo club.

[@fluffyfishy9441]

Show me where on the grappling doll that aikido hurt you so bad

[@thechroniclesofthegnostic7107]

And the biggest thing that wrestling will teach is skilled motion under full fighting intensity. It's one of the same key reasons--often cited as the biggest one depending on who you ask--why wrestling is the biggest "feeder" discipline on top of MMA... despite lacking strikes, despite lacking submissions. Part of it is the literal tactical stuff, e.g. "dictating where the fight is held," etc. etc. But a huge part is the intensity of the training, coupled with the fact of its complexity (boxing might be as intense, but more limited in diversity of skills). Then, adding striking or submissions to someone training with that physical and mental intensity is a piece of cake for them. HEMA matches *could* be contested with such intensity--but are unlikely to be. Both because of safety, and because, playing at weapons, there's the superficial understanding that such intensity often isn't *necessary* even in real life, simulating conditions where a single strike can kill. (Which still is cautionary; even if you're the better fencer against a complete noob and would win 99 times out of a hundred, it doesn't help you if that hundredth time is today. ;) ) Nevertheless, to develop--still understanding the consequences of a bad day at the odds--the utmost level of martial art/sport? You need (1) a huge talent pool participating, so you (2) have ultra-high-level athletes in the mix, and (3) they are going at it as absolutely balls-out, at least in one category of competition, as is possible. HEMA is nowhere near that yet, and has to recognize these requirements if it aspires to be.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Well said.

[@ponod]

I agree, I do HEMA and wrestle , and ever since i started seriously training wresting, i noticed that my fencing improved a LOT I think that all fencers should seriously train wrestling to improve their own fencing, to improve the quality of historical wrestling, and also to hopefully improve the standing of hema in the martial arts community

[@ahmedsameh4408]

What if I don't have time to draw my sword? What if I'm facing more than one opponent? What if? What if? Your opinion is crystal clear my friend. That's is simply combat

[@RoboticSafey]

I think for me personally it comes down to if someone has the time and resources. If I had the time and resources to pick up a second martial art in addition to HEMA, I would pick up some kind of grappling art. That said people have to work with what they have not with what they want. I am aware of the hole that not taking a dedicated grappling class will leaving in my hema education and have to take it into account.

[@epremeaux]

I like your videos and you keep it civil (unlike a lot of other MMA-youtubers that post similar "HEMA is bs/dead/stupid and irrelevant/broken/insert other negative adjective" videos. But consistently, I see several major flaws with those arguments and yours: 1: (less so in this particular video, im mostly referring to those other youtubers here) it seems as though everyone assumes HEMA people practice HEMA to survive some back-alley fight. Not a single HEMA person (at least, no one with common sense) has any dillusion that HEMA is useful as a practical modern self defense method. No one is disputing that MMA, or even basic high-school wrestling would serve them much better in such an event. Nor does anyone dispute that ANY martial arts training, in combination with ANY OTHER martial arts training, would make you an over-all better fighter. Its self evident that 2 years of rolling around on the mat with sweaty dudes will make any HEMAist generally "better" at HEMA (or any other martial art for that matter). 2: (more relevant to YOUR two videos) : you mention the skills that wrestling teaches you: measure, pressure (feeling and reacting), when to be strong vs weak, balance, leverage, tipping points, mass distribution, instictive assesement of opponent's abilities, when to be proactive vs reactive, defense & attack & chaining them. No one disputes that those are great skills to have as a fencer. But you SUGGEST (not directly say) that the only way to gain these skills is by wrestling. Or are you saying that these skills CANT be learned from fencing alone? I mean.. you make a video with the tilte "HEMA is dead" where you posit that HEMAists should wrestle for 2 years.. and heres all the original sources that agree with you, and here is all the skills you learn from wrestling. The only thing I can assume is that the point of your statement is to say its IMPOSSIBLE to learn these skills any other way. All of those skills can be acquired a variety of ways, including ONLY doing HEMA. Absurd. You wouldn't walk up to Mike Tyson and say "ehh.. you were a good boxer. But if you had spent 2 years wrestling first, you would have been a TRUELY GREAT boxer." Again.. not disputing that wrestling wouldnt be beneficial.. I think it could actually be FUN to incorporate more grappling as long as it remains safe. ANY collected martial arts experience a fencer has will only aid them in setting a stronger foundation (both physically and in skillset) over their opponent. But overall, its still going to be sword skills that win the majority of matches. 3: all of these "HEMA is x" videos totally miss the point as to why people get into HEMA in the first place. What are our motivations? Again, as per point 1 above, its NOT for a form of modern self defense. So any argument related to "It cant work in a real fight" is dumb (I know you aren't making that argument here, but many that ARE making that argument point to your videos as you are the only person with HEMA experience that vaguely aligns with their personal narrative). The motivations to do HEMA are various (not an all inclusive list): light to medium physical exercise, CASUAL exercise, love swords / history, dislike most other sports, were bullied as a kid because were terrible at ANY sport until swords came along, low testosterone / have no need to prove our manhood in the modern-traditional sense, want a social activity, and yes, some really like to compete. Some motivations NOT on that list include : Want to get jacked / body building /sculpting, self-defense, enjoy skin-ship with my fellow sweaty man, enjoy getting elbowed/punched in the face, dont mind nose bleeds or black eyes (ok im being cheeky.. the point is, for whatever reason, wrestling / MMA doesnt appeal to most HEMAists. Sure, there are those that do both. But they choose EACH activity for DIFFERENT reasons). 4: Also, no one in HEMA cares that its not as popular as other sports. If anything, many of us would prefer it remain a little underground and unusual. We dont want to deal with all the gymbros coming around to prove their might, hit on all the women, then dash out never to be seen again (this particular gripe comes from also being a fan of a particular underground music scene for a long time and having to deal with university bros all the time). The only people that care about "global HEMA numbers" are those that make their living off it. 5: All these videos assume YOUR motivations are OUR motivations. They simply are not. IF they were, we would be right there along side you on the mat, wrestling or whatever. There are Loads of other martial arts that have nothing to do with wrestling. Loads of martial arts that have no modern self-defense context. And martial arts that are solitary experiments with no form of sparring whatsoever. To take your argument to its conclusion, ALL of these martial arts are broken and dead too. These arguments like "HEMA isnt like MMA, so it must be BROKEN and the only way to FIX it is to make it more like MMA. Also, they are all NERDS." are just arrogant, dismissive and disrespectful. (Don't get me wrong, I am not saying you are any of those things. But the other people that make those videos use you as a reference and example. ) Its like they are saying "HEMAists dont want to be wrestlers/MMA fighters like us, so they must be wrong." Its like Republicans vs Democrats or something. The impression that I get is maybe some of these guys are secretly jealous of HEMA because we do it JUST FOR FUN, dont care about the sport getting popular, and aren't afraid of some boogieman around every corner.

[@robnewton1942]

Agree with all of what you said. I've seen a bunch of comments that say "why isn't HEMA as big as MMA?" well...MOST things arent as big as MMA, and i dont know anyone who would want it to be! Its a really weird attitude. It's ok just to enjoy things! Also, as you say, HEMA is a broad enough church that there is room for everyone.

[@shyzunk]

To someone like me, who knows a few disarms and throws and thats it for wrestling, you are still not really making a very clear case for investing more time to it. What I hear you saying is not "learn wrestling", but rather "learn advanced body mechanics". And you would need to explain not that wrestling could potentially be useful, but how not doing it creates poor fencers because their weak instinctive understanding of body mechanics makes them stiff and slow. Or something to that effect. My general take on this is that not everyone who spends tons of time sparring is very good at efficient body mechanics as you can often stick someone with the pointy end without deep understanding just following steps or being fast and decisive. I could just as easily make the point that people should really do sharp weapons training. You can see consistently that anyone who does even a little bit of that, tends to change their mentality in fencing drastically, while remaining very good fencers. But you will see them spend a lot more time studying each individual blade angle before ever sparring, focusing a lot more on binds, fighting from a greater distance and being very very cautious before committing to a decisive finisher. Seeing two sharp swords veterans fight in full gear with blunt weapons looks slow and gentle, until you are the one who weakened your bind too soon and got smacked on the head full speed out of nowhere. I would argue that this clearly has more impact on hema than wrestling ever will. And is it absolutely required for any club to have a sharp blade veteran in it? I dont think so, though they would certainly benefit from having them around. Is hema dead unless we sharpen our swords? Have you been doing it wrong all this time?

[@corrugatedcavalier5266]

You both make good points, and I agree that I think he missed what you were saying a bit, or didn't address it as a main point. I also think that at least as far as medieval sources go, they all present a good amount of wrestling and speak of its importance. I would also assume the vast majority of people who are being trained at the sword in those days probably had at least a basic working knowledge of wrestling. I know there are limitations in the modern day, but I feel like if you're not wrestling you're only doing 50% at most of the popular medieval systems out there. He certainly has a point about amount of training time and what you want to specialize in, but again for medieval HEMA especially I think it's integral. FIGHT TEAM!

[@christophernewton8474]

When I was a kid I did Judo for three years and came in 2nd place in a local tournament for people in my age group, later I did fencing for a while in middle school, and now as an adult I am doing kickboxing, and I have to say, it did not seem to me that Olympic style fencing was much effected by previous decent Judo skills, but the transition into kickboxing has been immensely helped along by my Judo experience. Understanding balance and leverage goes a long way, and I would imagine many wrestlers, especially Greco-Roman would have similar experiences. HEMA fencing I understand is usually different from Olympic fencing. I did take a German Longsword class once and it seemed much heavier on balance and leverage than foil fencing.

[@JoshuaCairns]

I agree with you! This isn't an issue exclusive to HEMA either. In a lot of disciplines, there's been an uptake of fighting with simulated weapons while armored in padding, but that doesn't teach "killer instincts" the way that grappling does. In fact, in a lot of other disciplines, it's recommended the combatants cross-train in grappling. This goes even into sports like American football and rugby. With grappling each match is a full-on fight, everything is left on the mat. Every grappler I know has had fingers and ribs broken, and even dislocations that they didn't realize until after the match - or a match had to be called because the ref saw injuries that the combatants didn't. In grappling, adrenaline and pain are regular parts of the process, and you can literally go to unconsciousness. With padded fighting there are consequences but it's easier to under and over-commit because the consequences don't translate the same way. While Matt is right, there are carry-overs into certain styles that you'd gain from grappling, there are just so many things that grappling teaches and simulates that you can't learn without being in a full-consequences fight - and grappling is the safest way to get that experience. I'm not a HEMA guy, I'm interested and went to a club, and my background in multiple grappling and striking styles seemed to overcome my lack of ability with the sword. I was readily able to close distances and overcome my opponents. Maybe HEMA needs more cross-discipline fighting, but I really think grappling would solve a lot of the sport-factor issues. Otherwise, it's very much in the realm of a sport and not a fighting style.

[@willek1335]

100%. HEMA leaning towards fighting rather than sport is way better IMO. Olym Olympic fencing doesn't appea appeal to me what so ever, but MMA does.

[@valkyriebait136]

I think you hit on the divide here that neither you nor Matt are exactly saying out loud. HEMAists are in it because they want to play with swords. BJJ and MMA practitioners are in it because they want to win fights. As a HEMA nerd, let me assure you - I know I'm not the best fighter, and that BJJ and MMA are the real way to win. I'm here to play with swords, which I absolutely know does not make me a good fighter. I think the two arts have two different goals, and that's part of the disconnect.

[@DamonYoungYT]

I don’t have an overly sophisticated response to this. I’ll just add that sometimes the only way to avoid being beaten by grappling is-beating the other guy with grappling. There’s no magical way out of this knowledge, alas. I say this as someone who prefers to “strike and fly out”.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Very true.

[@the_guitarcade]

I mostly disagree. I'm autistic and struggle with tone, especially when writing, so please take the following as respectful disagreement even if I accidentally phrase things confrontationally or otherwise poorly. I'll try to break my disagreement into multiple distinct categories. Category 1) In general, HEMA is no more an accurate name than "traditional martial arts" is for traditional martial arts. If my goal is to compete in Tae Kwon Do kick tricking competitions, I don't need to learn how to wrestle. If I'm trying to be the first Tae Kwon Do black belt to win a UFC title, I need to learn to wrestle to defend against takedowns while I kick people in the head. There are different valid reasons for learning a thing, and they don't all benefit the same from the same add-ons. This category of disagreement is that people don't do HEMA so that if they're attacked by a ruffian with a longsword while walking home from the pub they can defend themselves with their own longsword. They do it for fun. In the period when longswords were carried, people didn't do HEMA, they studied the best, most practical and efficient methods of self-defense they could. The sources, techniques, equipment, etc. may all be the same as a 15th-century person would have used, but studying a martial art for fun, well-being, fitness, etc. is entirely different from studying one to stay alive. Category 2) The benefits to wrestling you listed were all skills that are eminently practical for sword fighting. This means that you also gain them by sword fighting. This causes me to ask the question: "Why do the old fencing masters recommend starting with wrestling?" I'm sure there are a lot of potential answers. One is that in 1580, wrestling was less dangerous than practicing with a longsword. Nowadays, is it, though? Are you more likely to tear a bicep or have someone land on your knee funny while wrestling or to get run through with a modern practice sword? In a modern context, if they're similar in terms of safety, and you're just doing HEMA because you want to sword fight, why waste time learning skills wrestling that you could learn while actually sword fighting? Category 3) I haven't seen a definitive threshold for how much wrestling you are implying people "need" for HEMA. Saying 18 months is meaningless. Is it 18 months of watching KZbin videos about wrestling? Is it 3 hours a week of instruction, plus one hour per week of rolling? Does BJJ count? Roman-Grecco wrestling? Catch Wrestling? Unstructured wrestling in your backyard with a neighbor? What skills have to be learned and to what level before you're qualified to pick up a sword? I've boxed in a few amateur boxing matches. Do I need less wrestling because of that experience? My conclusion: If you are studying HEMA for a reason that would benefit from wrestling, wrestle, too. If you're studying HEMA because you want to whack your friends with swords with better structure and instruction than LARP, then skip it.

[@FriedEdd]

Your tone was just right. And the questions at the end about how much, were very on point. I worked the doors for near enough 10 years. Didn't have any wrestling training but learnt how to move people who didn't want to be moved. Do I need to know more to improve my fencing (which like you, I do for fun). I hope that I will never need a sword on the way home from the pub, but I do feel confident that I could be a devil at defending myself with an umbrella.

[@ChopinIsMyBestFriend]

I did muay thai and I feel that the clinch grappling would be helpful as well. Definitely helps to do multiple martial arts, even for a few months.

[@OneMindAnyWeapon]

The general distinction in hema between those that think grapplling is vital and those that dont is whether they have done grappling. You can study various sources with out coming to grips.... but theres a reasosn as you say, that contemporaries to those systems pointed out deficiences of those systems in real encounters when the conventions went out the window or when people encounted nations who didnt "play by the rules"

[@EnglishMartialArts]

That first sentence is exactly what I have been thinking. Perfect!

[@artemisdarkslayer]

So I like the points both of you have made about it. You might be overly exaggerating the benefits of wrestling and undervaluing the benefits of fencing. In your video you say that wrestling teaches you about measure, pressure and feeling, strong vs weak , balance and leverage. Which all are true, but the same can be said of every fencing system and martial art. And wrestling doesn't teach you some of the other skills that are just as important: feints, foot work, edge alignment etc. Also during the middle ages and the renaissance wrestling was also not just a fighting system. It was a form of exercise, sport, and play. They didn't do as many different physical activities that we do today. Wrestling was one of the ways they built coordination starting as children. It was an activity everyone did so if you explain things in a way a wrestler would then almost anyone could understand it. So while I definitely agree that wrestling COULD make you a better fencer, saying that it WILL I think is not entirely accurate. And I agree with Matt that if you want to be good at fencing you should train to fence. Wrestling might help but its not a silver bullet or secret sauce. It's like cross training into any other martial art you can pull things from into your main area of study. But being a good wrestler doesn't mean you are going to be a good fencer. It might help, but it might not. You might pick up bad habits or have to unlearn some things.

[@MrAlepedroza]

This. Besides, the quote he used at the end is a bad translation from the German original, which did not speak as well about Wrestling as he claims.

[@tapioperala3010]

Fair points, once again. Difficult to argue with the old masters, tbh. Even more so, I personally think that any and all physical activity, especially martial arts of any kind, benefit from wrestling. Wrestling has so much carry over to absolutely anything.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

So many people do feel able to argue with the old masters. Not sure how I feel about that in fairness...

[@brianberthiaume2764]

Any melee technique that fails to address grappling is ultimately just for show. There is a reason why a poor striker but excellent grappler can still perform at the highest levels in MMA but the inverse is not also true.

[@FriedEdd]

Lyoto Machida

[@FriedEdd]

Sean Strickland if you need someone more recent

[@FriedEdd]

That Polish lass Johanna (please don't ask me to spell her surname) who was primarily a Thai boxer

[@FriedEdd]

All fighting arts have there place. If you are totally ignorant of any style you will find someone willing to try and expose you, but true mastery of one's own skill can shine through no matter what skill that is.

[@FriedEdd]

Also it depends on what the sporting rules favour. MMA in the beginning didn't allow Shamrock his wrestling shoes but did allow Gracie his Gi. The cage was heavily cushioned for throws and grappling which is unfavourable to strikers

[@addj7093]

When the zombie apocalypse happens all that HEMA training will come in handy 👍🏻

[@ElDrHouse2010]

The bind could get a lot better with wresting.

[@LuxisAlukard]

0:52 "... so, keep that polite." So, no duel to the death to settle this argument?

[@scandor8599]

I can count on one hand the number of months I've been doing HEMA, but this exact debate is pretty much a mirror of one going on with people I know who work in tech. And given people get paid for doing IT work even though it can also be a hobby, it's probably a better comparison to the attitudes in historical texts! Viewpoint A - who are typically the older generation (who are incredibly skilled) "Everyone should do basic electrical theory, electronics, then serial comms, then basic packet switched connections, Ethernet IP etc [for example]. Everything gets built on top of those foundations and you need to understand why things behave the way they do at a higher level, and that's all informed by these basics. Viewpoint B - "We cannot afford, in time or money, to send people for five years' training in that stuff, and they are just going to lost interest if we try. Also, yes there are some transferrable skills, but you really don't need all that to manage a software defined network in a VM cluster." Yes, the gold-plated approach would be to do wrestling as a foundation and expand outward. However, an engineering truism is worth repeating: "The last 10% takes 90% of the effort" In this context, to me that means that if you're happy being at 90% of your potential, then you can achieve that relatively easily, and wrestling as a foundation probably isn't that valuable. Finally: time, resources, interest and ***desired outcome*** all vary wildly between people. I for one just want to do something fun so I can trick myself into doing *some* exercise.

[@Kujapaints]

That thumbnail :D Loving the new vids

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I'm particularly proud of that thumbnail... 😀

[@Kujapaints]

@@EnglishMartialArts a true wrestledad!

[@NuggetsForBrains5]

Excellent argument! I think you've hit it right on the head when you said not everything that is popular is effective or the best thing. I myself am a generalist so I have a great interest in all of the weapons including wrestling. I've noticed from my wrestling that I've gained huge amounts of benefit in my longsword and dussack fencing especially, including winning a longsword tournament just this last week. I think as the community evolves as long as wrestling continues to show fruits in the training regiments of experienced fencers, we should be able to effect the way HEMA is trained and practiced, and hopefully rise the skill ceiling as a whole.

[@ktoth29]

I rode the wave around 2014-2017… reached a saturation point around 2018 when I’d learned as much as I could and gone as far as I could with the equipment and training available to me.

[@jedi77palmer]

I've decided to take a few months off from HEMA and take up some grappling for awhile and see how I go. There's no catch classes in my city but heaps of BJJ so I will be doing that for awhile. It's something that I've been meaning to do for years but the number of ppl know that have permanent injuries from training has always put me off.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Let me know how it goes!

[@jedi77palmer]

@@EnglishMartialArts the one guy that knows catch is from the Snakepit Wigan but obviously not enough interest here in Perth to run a class.☹️

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@jedi77palmer the snakepit produce some great wrestlers, go out of your way to get some mat time with him. If he's willing to travel to learn from Roy then he obviously cares enough about Catch to be likely to want to spread the word.

[@jedi77palmer]

​@@EnglishMartialArts I'm almost certain he would have emigrated from the Motherland as we have alot of Poms here in West Oz. Like alot alot

[@sukotsutoCSSR]

I'm glad this issue is in conversations now - I feel when people realize the better HEMAist are the ones who know wrestling, then they would understand that it's a foundational skill..

[@sharp_medicine9858]

The only real way to settle this is through the noble art of purring.

[@FriedEdd]

Lol. Not sure of the style but I will look up local doors to see if they teach it.

[@AndrewJordanBladesmith]

Hello . THank you for this video . AS a proffessional bladesmith with a lot of experiance in Marchal arts . What you bring up in the video are valid . I've long held many of your comments regarding HEMA and the GURU Matt easton .

[@hailhydreigon2700]

Great points! I think you covered all the bases, because I have nothing to else to say. Training grappling will only ever be beneficial. FIGHT TEAMMMM

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Exactly!

[@owenthomas9863]

You can imagine that a lot of fights to the death would end up in a grapple a large percentage of the time. So it make sense that wrestling is a huge advantage. The UFC fighters with wrestling/bjj backgrounds tend to do better than strikers

[@romanista77]

I'm a long time fan of Matt's channel, but I can't agree with him here. I'm also a very long time Olympic fencer (since 1995) and more recent BJJ guy (2017). Without a doubt I have better distance management and timing because of fencing. But, my overall body control, balance, and physical ability is MUCH better through more recent BJJ training. ALSO, more to Matt's points: As long as there is any restriction on the field of play. The fencer who can fence at the closest distance has an advantage. Through pressure, you'll eventually be out of space.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

That'd a very interesting point, I hadn't considered restricted space.

[@MrAlepedroza]

Not denying BJJ didn't help you, but still, you started training it on top of decades of fencing training that could not be replaced. The atributes you exercised in BJJ can be replicated by other exercises or even grappling arts. Therefore, Matt's point still stands: grappling is not essential nor even that beneficial to sword arts that do not allow for it.

[@CrazyTom34]

Also an Olympic Fencer turned to grappling and I agree also. Generally speaking sword fights, while there are variety of distances within a fencing exchange, are all close combat and the distance can close suddenly and violently. Having the confidence to close that distance when needed is a major advantage in a martial art, combat focused style

[@claesandersson5300]

Yes and yes. But do we really have to fix hema. If people wants to focus on historical documents? Do we really have to be An effective combat system? Or can those who want to train and study historical documents and those who want to train measurable systems just accept each other. Love all forms of martial arts especially wrestling system. But would also like to train HEMA. If only there was time. Is it really a relevant question whether longsword or smallsword is an effective system for our time?

[@marcusencel3528]

Complex question but…wrestling comes to the fore in swordsmanship more so in a armed conflict between large numbers of people than the duelling scenario both because of the battlefield scenario and the weapons used. Fighting unarmored with duelling swords is less likely to end in a grapple than being on a muddy battlefield melee. Obvious grappling coupled with swordsmanship has a wider range of applications but its less specialist. The skills have to fit the scenario

[@claeshorsmann8140]

I'm not in a position to contradict, me only doing HEMA for a couple of years. Nor am I inclined to, I think your points are well argued. Thank you for sparking a civilised exchange of arguments that is entertaining and educational to follow. Rob Childs has also weighed in with some good points, I might add: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gXKkfah-Z6pjY8k Two things I'd like to comment on: HEMA being broken/dead/fubar'd/whathaveyou begs a yardstick by which to judge its fitness for purpose. I take your assessment to be against "a system effective in competitive, no-holds-barred fighting, to take out your opponent without sustaining hits". By that standard, I'd say you make a very good point. If I go to the other extreme and say "a system that allows an old geezer to get his *rse moving again, get out and train in a welcoming community, where he can actually turn his bookishness to some use", not so much. Mind you, I think your yardstick is essential to advancing HEMA as a sport, but I feel we shouldn't discount the other aspects entirely. And lastly, a hypothesis to be dismantled by you dudes more experienced than me: might the emphasis on wrestling in the quoted historical sources be driven (to an extent) by the fact that training wrestling is less hazardous than bashing yourselves with training weapons, while still providing tactile and kinetic experience of the concepts you referenced (measure, tempo, pressure etc.)?

[@passingthorough7667]

The point of choosing not to do wrestling, as i see it, is this: I have maybe three hours a week to train HEMA. As excellent as wrestling may be in complementing my fencing, and as fundamental as the masters considered it - my time is absolutely better spent practicing swordplay for a two hour session, and then reviewing that throughout the week. Most of the other HEMA practitioners are in a very similar situation. Wrestling likely does *complete* HEMA, but we simply don't have the time to give it the attention it may rightly deserve. HEMA without wrestling is a compromise, but it's still a healthy one.

[@iwantagoodnameplease]

The quote you read out made no sense, and seemed tautological. "If you want to learn wrestling, learn wrestling". I assumed the first mention of wrestling should have been fencing. But I've googled it, as best as I can, and whilst I can't find a nice free copy of that source (Unarmored Longsword Combat by Master Liechtenauer via Priest Döbringer) I can see other people quoting the exact same thing you did. Can you explain it, a bit? Is it meant to be that the list of attributes (deceit, grace etc) are all being taught in the manual as sword-stuff, but it's saying "actually this is all wrestling"?

[@LSgaming201]

Two different ways of viewing what HEMA is and what it should be about. You are coming at it from the view point that HEMA should give you the skills to survive and win an actual sword fight. Matt is coming at it from the viewpoint that HEMA should be about about recreating the historical fencing techniques and winning a point sparring match. And I gotta be honest, I'm kinda siding with Matt here. Yes wrestling would make HEMA more lethal and more effective, but no one is going into HEMA to win a sword fight or to win any fight at all. No one is fencing in the street or being called to war by their liege. HEMA honestly isn’t even really a martial art despite the MA in its name, any more than olympic fencing is a martial art. Its a sport. Would it be cool to blend the two and have real grappling and real fencing with a real strength and conditioning regimen to compliment both, yes. It would be rad af. But we're talking about literal years, decades of training to get the barest measure of real competency in a MA like that. People did that 600 years ago because if you didn’t you were gonna get fucking killed. It was necessary. It just isn't anymore. HEMA is for a bunch people with a mild or extreme history fetish to grab a stick and swing at each other for awhile. I don’t think anyone in the HEMA community legitimately believes they're prepared for an actual sword fight to the death. Tldr: it would be cool to incorporate all this into HEMA but it would be a lot for any normal person to try and master and there wouldn't really be a point.

[@taxusbaccata3001]

I think you are right 100%. Every oppertunitiy I have I tell people how much I hate grappling but I also add that it made me a far better striker. I think it's the fact that you can't escape your opponent. What I often see with new people in our mma club is that they try to 'run', they are really afraid to get hit even if it is very light. But with wrestling you don't have that luxury.

[@davidweihe6052]

I rather expect that the reason that most of those fighting masters brought up the importance of wrestling so often is that their students ignored it as often as modern HEMA students do. When you are armed with a 30-60 inch long killing blade (or a stand-in for one), it is a bit hard to care about hand-to-hand combat.

[@fredazcarate4818]

I agree with your assessment regarding HEMA. It seems withen the organization there is great deal psuedo intellectual hair splitting about how techniques in this system or that was allegedly performed. The sources suggests that if a man at arms was to be proficient; he must train in grappling, pugilism, and weapons. After all one does not start building a house from roof but starting at the foundation. Having stated clearly the obvious. Let me thank you for sharing your martial expertise, and combat knowledge . God bless you and your family!

[@ruiseartalcorn]

Great points on both sides of the discussion :)

[@alicelund147]

Maybe if you are physically weaker you prefer to try to avoid wrestling. And if there are multiple combatants, being engaged in wrestling will make it difficult to defend against others.

[@FriedEdd]

100% agreeance from me. Rely on wrestling as a back up in a weapon based world could get u a knife in the guts or your ear bitten off. Not to mention your argument about your opponent having friends to help him out.

[@Fred-px5xu]

Pardon the rather crude language but the video lecture was and is bloody marvaless!

[@Crypt4l]

@EnglishMartialArts Measure, pressure, balance, leverage, strong, weak, mass distribution, timing, movement, ability, strategy, chains. Concedes all these skills are learned the fastest an deepest doing Wrestling, I just don't know that. Can those skill also be aquired by years of fencing?

[@ungainlytitan1460]

Hmmm... I think one could make the same argument about dance.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Only if one hasn't wrestled.

[@PunchCatcher]

I think one thing that seems to be missing in the conversation is time. You mention how weapons got more specialized and the best way to get good at a thing is to do it. So if you want to learn small sword then using a small sword and being instructed in small sword etc. is going to be your best option. As swords, especially, got more specific and as their use in warfare declined it makes sense that the grappling fell away because one simply didn't have the time to devote to that AND the small sword.

[@jonathanh4443]

Being the devils advocate here: isn't broken the inevitable result of getting 'more popular?' As you get more popular many clubs out there have more 'pressure' to run a 'profitable business'. As in if you don't have X number of students you can't pay rent on your club. I've seen this in the students at the club I go to, we get a lot of Reenactors or Ren Fair people who come in for Longsword and have no interest in actually fighting, but 'they keep the lights on'. We still go through the motions to show them how to hold the blade and look good doing it, but when it comes to just hitting their training partner...it takes some work. The art of being an instructor is to work different 'weapons' or skills into their training. When they come in for longsword/Rapier etc, I will keep them at cutting distance for a good six months to a year before we start working on anything 'inside'. At that point, if they are still around, I can introduce them to the basics of grappling and ideally they will take a few months to head over to the grappling class and learn the basics there.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I wouldn't say it's inevitable, but it's certainly a big risk.

[@xr33tk]

I think this is absolutely true. A tiny niche of hardcore fans will, by definition, be hardcore fans. Once you have every tom dick and harry doing it, for a variety of reasons, you are no longer dealing with the obsessives but rather a mass market and that inevitably means less focus, people running mcdojo etc

[@OneMindAnyWeapon]

And just because grappling and wrestling were dropped... doesnt mean those eras and teachers were correct.

[@harlemdeni]

So here's a 'funny' story; I found your channel while I was doing my thorough BJJ and grappling investigation four months ago, before starting with it, thinking watching videos would help me somehow. Unsurprisingly, it didn't that much. But I loved this channel, and to this day I watch every video of it. Here is the important part; your voice is so soothing and the topics that you choose are so near and dear to my newly shaped grappling heart that I put on a playlist even before going to bed. But man, that FUCKING OUTRO IS JUST A THING OF NIGHTMARES 😂. Try to fall asleep to your own video sometimes, and think how you've done a great job, and then the outro comes and wakes your nan up even from wherever she is. Sheesh. Anyway, cheers from Macedonia 😁

[@teufeldritch]

There's is only one way this can be sorted out; a duel! ;P

[@jonnick3634]

1. Any proper martial art teaches timing, measure, pressure etc. and can beneficial to fencing 2. Wrestling is fundamental block for any martial art that teaches how to survive a fight. Unless you are involved in an artillery duel, any type of combat may get in close and personal. However, not all HEMA treatises are about survival/no rules fighting. Sport fencing or duels with pre-establish rule sets existed back in the day, too.

[@2adamast]

2:40 Aikido! Trying to promote grappling in fencing, and can't restrain from Master Ken the "other" grappling in fencing branch.

[@Cool_Story_Bruh]

The comments saying HEMA is invalid because of the padding/armor, is like saying MMA is invalid because they allow tap-outs. You should break their elbow with every arm-bar, keep every choke-hold locked til they stop breathing, and keep hitting them after they're already knocked out. Fractures and breaks do also happen in HEMA (inherent to swinging 3+ pound hunks of metal at treminal velocity) but as with all combat sports there's a line drawn where everyone agrees you're not actually trying to kill your opponent. Otherwise, MMA wouldn't exist because we'd just call it 'Thunderdome' and chant, "two men enter, one man leaves!" As for learning wrestling and grappling in HEMA, I agree it's a part of sword combat, but I think why tournaments stop grapples are for the same reason I mentioned earlier. It's a sport, so you're not actually trying to kill someone by pinning them long enough to get your blade through a gap in their armor, you're just trying to get that first clean strike for a scored point.

[@RespitBAM]

I think if you want to do HEMA professionally, you should definitely do some supplementary wrestling training on a regular basis. I sadly don't have the time for it, and some "fencing focused" hours per week have to suffice. But I'm a causal anyway.

[@Sfourtytwo]

"...not the same as effectiveness." Honey if you think that i go to swing around a messer and a longsword because i need to defend myslelf on the mean streets of Oberglatt you are mistanken. I do this because i am a nerd and like to slap people with weapons. With weapons as in wrestling has no such thing and therefore is boring. I enjoy wrestling with the Messer because you know "the Messer".

[@rataca100]

Would those random "stufy groups" or somone just renting a hall for people for practice hitting each other with swords be considered a HEMA club?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

If they're basing what they do on a historical source then yes.

[@Domin0ss]

One could argue that boxing, kickboxing or any striking hand to hand fighting system will bring same advantages to one's fencing skills ;) and HEMA would greatly benefit when it comes to practicality, effectivness or realism only if it would become full "contact" without protective gear (meaning deadly ;)) and allowing almost any other techniques (similarily to mma)... ;) anything less will be allways sort of compromise ;) Realistically HEMA sparring should allow for wide range of punches, kicks and grappling/wrestling to become less "artsy" and more realistic but it would complicate rules set, choice of protective gear and most probably make it much less popular or... make it more attractive for different kind of ppl and scare some of those who doing it now... right now HEMA has probably too many similarities with kendo or traditional karate which are detached from reality but is there an easy or even realistic way to change that? Not sure about it...

[@FriedEdd]

I agree with the opening sentences of your reply. I would disagree on the the need for unarmoured or real sharps in use instead of practise blades. Instill in your students a belief that any touch from the opponent is possibly death and the sparring becomes something akin to that I imagine happen in times gone by.

[@baldieman64]

The biggest problem is the inability to pick and mix within H/EMA. Most people starting martial arts don't do it for the flouncing around in silly costumes. They do it because they want to learn how to fight but really want a magic bullet, where they can learn how to fight, without getting beaten up - 'cause that's scary. This is why Aikido got so popular. At some point, they realise that Aikido doesn't work, but they have a bunch of skills that they can transfer directly to JJJ, Karate, or Judo - and very often, that just means training with the same bunch of mates, in the same location, on a different night. What we need is academies that do that for H/EMA with multiple non-scary ways into the group. That might mean running a boxersise session for the office staff of a lunctime and a light bagwork/boxing session after work. It might be linking up with the local Sealed Knot group for fencing. Or it might be weights, leading to wrestling based conditioning.

[@taistelusammakko5088]

Most people who do hema propably dont give a shit how effective it is. Its mostly people who want to learn how to use historical weapons that are useless nowdays

[@MrAlepedroza]

Bad example. The demographic that gets into HEMA doesn't have much of self deffense in mind. You can easily deffend yourself with legit unarmed martial arts, but how many people would ever find themselves in a situation in which they have to use a sword or spear to fend off an attacker? People don't get into HEMA for that. There's more of a hobby side to it. That said, what you said about those extra classes might be a nice addition to draw in the public that normally goes to unarmed martial arts into HEMA. Medieval/Catch Wrestling+ vintage conditioning extra classes (with Indian maces and kettlebells) might be a nice addition for HEMA classes to make. Old style pugilism, which had footwork very similar to wrestling, might do it too.

[@xr33tk]

@@MrAlepedroza yeah I agree. Many (most?) people get into martial arts because they want to be jackie chan or think they will learn a magical floating punch or whatever. But I think that for the most part isnt true of HEMA. I would even go so far as to say that for a lot of people in the martial arts crowd there is a difference between historical (cringe) and traditional (cool).

[@2adamast]

Aikido is all about silly costumes (for me). Not sure boxing is a good idea, Hema has not as much protection as Kendo and what will happen when people start boxing the cross guard in the face (neck), ribs or liver. I mean, that oversized cross guard is a clear boxer opportunity.

[@FriedEdd]

When people say aikido doesn't work I have to assume that they have had experiences with bad clubs. Look up the book Angry White Pyjamas. It is about a teacher learning aikido at a dojo in Japan with the local riot police. The reason it has wrist grabs is to stop your opponent from using (or possibly even drawing a weapon). Rather useful in hema maybe, or in the UK now every toe rag has a knife.

[@allengordon6929]

The popularity of HEMA likely means other martial artists get in on the fun, win every hand to hand exchange they get into, and then all the non hand to hand HEMA practitioners then train hadn to hand.

[@guitarfan84]

6.08 how do you even read that??

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Slowly and carefully!

[@ahmedsameh4408]

Billy Robinson is proud of you my friend, I hope you teach your pugilism mixed with catch wrestling, it is the best out there.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

😁

[@Henchman34]

Guy Windsor's most recent podcast episode is all about wrestling in HEMA.

[@pourlemerite]

Excellent discussion. Totally agree with the point that popularity does not equate to quality. A good understanding of balance and ‘feeling’ your opponents resistance is critical in sensing attack and defence. Just a small point on your use of the zoom in and out on your camera; it’s a bit distracting 👍

[@EconaelGaming]

Am I hearing this right? You're proposing an "initial time investment in grappling", whereas Matt is hearing a "continuous time investment in grappling".

[@EnglishMartialArts]

No. I'm proposing that wrestling builds fundamentals for fencing better than fencing does.

[@JaxenChaz]

What a gentlemanly, scholarly discourse! I appreciate both you and Matt, but I find myself on your side in this matter. Matt says, "wrestling doesn't really help with this, this, or this" but then turns around and says, "well, I guess it could be beneficial to this, this, and this." OK, so a single practice has at least some benefit to multiple other disciplines... sounds like a good investment of time to me! Furthermore, the examples he used (smallsword, etc) are generally centuries more modern than the sources you were citing, aren't they? (Pardon me, I am not up to speed on the scholarly part of HEMA!) Of course, in this video you cite more modern sources, which still support your argument! However, devil's advocate: one thing Matt did assert, is that in addition to HEMA gaining popularity, the quality level is increasing. He says his club members regularly win at sport fencing, and sport fencers routinely come to the club and get trounced. Hmmm. Anyway, all that to say, what's most important is... FIGHT TEAM!

[@eltororist3366]

Haha! You hit on a big reason you always start with wrestling but didn't quite spell it out. As you say before antibiotics a wound was often a slow lingering death... It was (and still is, though less obviously today) an absolutely terrible idea to give someone who walks in off the street a sword and start swinging it about with them. I am absolutely certain in your bjj you have made some great friends you love rolling with and you have occasionally met some people you suspect just like to hurt you .. wrestling is an amazingly good way to examine someone's character and temperament and I will happily study deadly weapons with my favourite wrestling partners because I trust them. I trust them not to hurt me. It's much better to find out you can't trust someone in unarmed combat than it is in armed.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

The safety element is key, for sure.

[@leonpeters-malone3054]

This where I think I need to argue. Or at least point out perspective. I think the argument here, from the second vid, is very much an argument of biomechanics. There's one thing that's true and that's there's a difference between those who know their body and those who don't. There's a strength in knowing how you move, how you react, how you fight to those who don't. To the point where I would actually expand this out to the point where dancers should learn wrestling too. For the better. Why? It's a different form of training, movement. It's a different form of strength and knowledge. All of which ties back to the ability to know your own body. Having answered the question 'huh, so it can do that too.' To the point I would point to my translation of Musashi on the matter. You are at the core of your style, your form, your fighting. So master you. Learn from that schools that support you and avoid the schools that don't. Those that demand you kick, but you don't kick? Find a better teacher for kicking? Not so much. Find a more suited teacher. A more understanding and compatible teacher. Learn your biomechanics first, fighting second. You're in a better place than if you learn fighting first, biomechanics second. Sabre fencing might be dexterous, but a well time punch to the face? That has a way of ending fights. The same is true of the guy in armour using the armour to close to grapple to punch the other guy in the face. There's in my mind perhaps one universal of fighting and that's the biomechanics of. We can only move in so many ways, in a finite speed and in finite axis. Putting things from HEMA, from wrestling, from the east and west together in unison to your biomechanics is the ultimate form and mastery of. I have been drinking, so all of the above may make no sense. Or not. I don't know, ask me when I'm sober.

[@garrenbrooks4778]

Professionalism level 100

[@hiltonian_1260]

Fencing/sword skills are fine as long as you are just fencing. The problem is that in real life there are uneven surfaces, slippery and soft ground, obstacles, and just plain old mistakes that will put the combatants inside the distance of their weapons. Any real sword fight can become a wrestling match in an instant.

[@taistelusammakko5088]

That is... part of the art of sword fighting. It is not about fighting on even ground fairly with similiar opponent to yourself. If you have to fight in a marsh with a sword that doesnt mean swordfighting loses all meaning? Idk why you thought of that

[@hiltonian_1260]

@@taistelusammakko5088 I thought of it because that is the point of the whole video; that HEMA concentrates too much on the sword and too little on grappling.

[@Crypt4l]

I usually talk to friends person to person. Somtimes I use chat programs, email, or phone. I guess youtube videos also work^^

[@adam-k]

I feel that the purpose of hema is not self defense, or being a martial art. It is not for scoring points or to be the best with a sword. Nor is it to beat kendo practitioners. The purpose of hema is to try to comprehend manuscripts, by testing out the techniques depicted in them. If you score the most points with a longsword by utilizing Olympic fencing techniques and gaming the rules you are not doing hema. That said if the manuscript says that wrestling is useful in fighting with longsword then a practitioner should test that as well.

[@Poohze01]

I really can't resist pointing out that when you talk about Angelo & Jackson pairing up, it sounds an awful lot like you're condoning Bartitsu 😜

[@addj7093]

Ngl I’d love to start training HEMA start sword 🗡️ fighting must be lots of fun!

[@TalesForWhales]

Would I33 sword and buckler have less wrestling due to both hands holding gear? Epee needs more attention for blade only fencing I'd say due to its historical formalities. Epee is actually lots of fun/budget friendly. Longsword/stick lots of grappling to the point it is unrealistic to spar without it. Mix longsword with bjj to start them off their butts at least 😂

[@josefprusa5251]

I mean, saying wrestling/grappling is a good thing in addition to ranged fighting (ie boxing) was proven and well known in the martial arts community since the UFC, no?

[@vercingetorixwulf9298]

I don't know enough to comment really but I was very interested and it made me think .......

[@bubbagump2341]

I subscribe to both you and Matt but have to agree with you on this one! Popularity doesn't mean a martial art is good or effective and starting out learning to use your body as a weapon means you can learn to use weapons better. Not talkin' out my ass either as I learned learned various styles of wrestling and empty handed fighting before learning various styles of weapons fighting and I learned weapons faster because of it!

[@jaytomioka3137]

Observing children, kittens and puppies at play; I would say that At it’s most basic form, wrestling is fundamentally coded into our mammalian brains. It is one of nature’s primal mechanisms for teaching us how to move and interact with the world. This coincidently explains why I’m such a klutz 😂!

[@konradknox]

What's with the clickbait title? Yes wrestling is good. Are we really this desperate for views? A discussion on wrestling, not on HEMA being DEAD.

[@nickdavis5420]

It all depends on your system if your system is started from wrestling then yes start there . If not start from wherever the system starts .

[@daniel8181]

ARMA is unironically better than HEMA in every way. HEMA elitism always existed against those guys "they dont do real fencing, they make it all up" was what I always heard. Yet when I looked into them, they seemed to act more like athletes than anyone in HEMA did. Then I met the guys at an event and WOW were they impressive, after HEMA's online "community" decided to do a politically charged purge and started harassing random youtubers, and after these political clubs began showing up at tournaments attempting to get clubs disqualified, I was absolutely done with those clowns who were more interested in boxing phantoms than learning a discipline. I have NEVER seen this kind of childish shit in any other martial art, because other martial arts respect themselves and understand their purpose, these HEMA goons are literally just sword hipsters.