ENORMOUS 40K Rules Changes - Balance Dataslate, Space Marine Buffs, New Points + Many Nerfs!

[@LordCrate-du8zm]

“Big knight players, we hear you. That’s why we’d like to announce… MORE BUFFS for the Armigers!”

[@Adalon-]

I am convinced GW hates Knight players, especially after the Grotmass "Knight" detachments.

[@cameerex6630]

The chaos knight detachment is cool but the imperial one isn't that interesting

[@malal6512]

​@@Adalon-Thousand sons: first time?

[@aguy607]

Honestly the reasons someone gets knights or used to was for the flavour of a big knight and the lore. They suck the fun and flavour out of 40k too much to satisfy meta players at tournaments running 1 of 2 meta builds normally with some weird soup lists. Old 40k used to be more realistic with balanced armies and strategy not synergising and ruleshammering

[@fmalch1209]

​@@malal6512 TF you talking about? 1k sons have been a top 5 army for like 3 solid editions.

[@HeartlessNinny1]

Auspex, I think this bears mentioning: if you woke up one day and decided to stop doing this, my enjoyment of this hobby -- which is a fairly big part of my life -- would be dramatically lessened. I appreciate you and your work, brother. Keep on keepin' on!

[@dozencatfish1667]

Lol no pressure then

[@_Morph1ne_]

GW seems to want to make tank spam the only viable strat for guard, which I’m SURE everyone will enjoy.

[@DarkSnideoftheRainbow]

Considering Robin Cruddace is behind the wheel with rules design people really should have seen that one coming...

[@Proto1Dude]

@@DarkSnideoftheRainbow Cruddy Cruddace needs to be put in the ground

[@dickkickem4238]

6 Dorns lets go!

[@stripeybag6977]

Did you see the Necrons? Starshatter without Doomsday Arks and Silent King changes?!

[@troublemaker9899]

It's part of their scheme to say "Look, Astra Militarum is an affordable army! You only need like ten kits like everyone else!"

[@LordyT34]

The World Eaters cycle: 1. Get to a decent win rate 2. Get nerfed 3. Manage to settle into a decent new meta Repeat

[@ShadowOfLaw]

Drukhari cycle: 1. Skari wins with random list. 2. Get nerfed for no reason. 3. Skari wins with nerfed list. 4 Get nerfed for no reason once again.

[@mathiasschulze6148]

49% is near to perfectly balanced...what's the problem. If the ppl would play as well as they cry out loud, we had rly great tournaments to watch.

[@mahel3643]

Yeah when the Others Had 49% to 51% than yes, but when Others are 56% to 60% than it isnt very fair, isn't it...

[@Montyandrew45]

​@@ShadowOfLawIt's like GW is bullying people for playing Drukhari

[@mathiasschulze6148]

@@mahel3643 well, guard and gen stealers got nerfed, I can't understand why Deathguard remains untouched but other then that? what's the super powerful army's that you can't beat? and a little reminder even 55% Winrate means you lose pretty much every 2nd game...and here and there you win 2 in a row. Or out of 100 games they win 55 and world eaters 49... you're right...this is not to tolerate...

[@Adonidus]

Norn Assimilators out there living their best life

[@voltix54]

it shouldve been the venomthropes, toxicrenes and sporocysts loool it doesnt even make sesnse that they have the harvestor ability

[@elderdrake9127]

@@voltix54 It makes no sense that the Norn ASSIMILATOR gets a boost in ASSIMILATION Swarm detachment ?

[@unboundjackal]

​@voltix54 i need some of whatever you're having, apparently mine aren't even close to whatever you're on

[@humantwist-offcap9514]

@@voltix54toxicrenes getting the rule would go really hard to be fair.

[@voltix54]

@@elderdrake9127 yes just because it has assimulation in the name doesnt mean it consumes biomass.... norn assimulators are produced to take out one specific target thats the whole point why would they stick around and start eating biomass they arnt built for it

[@jhammers1918]

If we had a specific officer who orders auxiliaries, like a commisar, or an enginseer to order all vehicles including superheavies within their ability range, then the nerf wouldn't be so bad

[@frostedbutts4340]

We need an extra smort Ogryn officer already

[@JJacksonJ]

Eh I mean guard nerfs are pretty meh especially with the codex dropping soon but 100% I love the idea of commissar ordering the super heavies

[@timothytimmins5119]

"Look everyone! The Space Wolf has decided to follow the Codex!"

[@DeathsHead57]

As a Imperial Fist player.....EMPEROR BE PRAISED!!!. New oath of moment is gonna make us unstoppable.

[@StarkMaximum]

Seriously, hearing all these bolter buffs _and_ Lysander buffing the OC of Terminators is really tempting me off Blood Angels...and Feiross buffs the OC of my favorite Space Marine unit! Life is so hard for me...

[@m33ddyhv]

rules are temporary​@@StarkMaximum

[@StarkMaximum]

@@m33ddyhv Rules are temporary but those two are still very close behind Blood Angels for my favorite Space Marine chapters. Plus, if the rules are temporary, it just makes it more likely I should jump on them now so I can play it before it gets nerfed.

[@jimmysmith2249]

​@@StarkMaximumOr eliminated altogether! Go for it, dude. Have fun while it lasts; we all know what gw does when they see us having fun, and sisters got it this update.

[@martinnikolov38]

@@m33ddyhvthat is true, but the codex space marines getting nerfs because blood angels and dark angels do things better than us was an issue that needed to be addressed for a long time. Even if this exact change doesn’t stick, something will.

[@triplea657aaa]

Sisters were a 50% winrate army... they now get half as many miracle dice, their best units (castigators) are no longer undercosted and exorcists are extraordinarily expensive for what they do (they should be expensive as an exorcist swinging up is disgusting and indirect is unhealthy, but on average an exorcist doesn't even kill 2 marines...). To top it all off, the one detachment that was the reason they've been taking massive nerfs over the past 6 months got slaughtered and is massively worse with no compensation buffs for any of it...

[@slammgames7425]

And that 50% relied heavily on the good players of the army. This punishes the casuals much more then the pros

[@ShadowOfLaw]

meanwhile necrons...

[@mathiasschulze6148]

dark angels get 3 nerfs in a row, and now pretty much lose Gladius completely...stop crying...play better

[@philtravis2093]

@@slammgames7425 I HATE PRO-PLAY DRIVEN RULES CHANGES, I HATE PRO-PLAY DRIVEN RULES CHANGES, I HATE PRO-PLAY DRIVEN RULES CHANGES

[@I2dios8]

F to pay respects. 40 to 30% win rate until next dataslate. I can relate as an Admech player.

[@ironwarriorhonsou9303]

Guard and sisters in shambles, holy crap

[@ThomasCundy]

Gsc took a pretty hard kick right in the Nethers only being able to bring 2-3 units back per game

[@Mangopawsss]

⁠@@ThomasCundyI mean generally, the change makes bringing units back way more consistent, and it’s much easier to tweak if needed (which is needed currently) Like sure, it was really nice bringing back 750pts of units on a whim from a good dice roll, but that happened maybe once every 6 games. I’d much prefer the guarantee that I get one or two somethings back than have my entire faction ability completely rely on dice rolls that I likely won’t make

[@gfazekas25]

i mean the main output of guard is untouched... Dorn and Russes still cheap and still busted dmg output... Leontus was a dumb nerf but hey james workshop with infantry in line (still unreasonable considering 80pts for wastly superior marines) DKoK is more viable, also 20men units didnt get more expy Guard got hit but honestly it could be waaaaaaaaaay worse... Sentinels, Hydras, Kasrkin also untouched while AoC nerfed

[@BOBOFSAGGET]

Oh no, spamming the parking lot is still viable and bullshit! How ever could guard recover?

[@CHESTNUT246]

@@gfazekas25 im just upset the baneblade cant take orders from solar anymore

[@martinkafka9510]

One more horrendous thing for Sisters is - with the 6 inch +1 S, we are back to only S9 melta, which is going to have us struggle against any T10 targets (like for no reason cheapened Armigers/Warhounds) and all that without Miracle Dice.

[@ignaciochirivella5143]

I don’t understand GW at all. Like yeah Sisters deserved to up in points cus our army was really good but now were going to be really bad. The whole point of Sisters is their non tanky space marines that pack a really big punch and have miracle shenanigans. Now were basically guard units with none of the armor, no powerful weapons to deal with heavy units but we shoot at 3’s so we deserve to get nerfed every update.

[@Brian0033]

This kind of confirms to me that GW is always a balance update behind. A lot of the nerfs feel like they were cooked up without waiting to see how the last round of nerfs affected things. The good (bad?) news is if you don't like the current rule set, just wait three months and you'll have a new one.

[@bensemusx]

Ya feels like they wrote all these nerfs months ago and have spent all their time on the new detachments. Sisters went from big but warranted nerf to big, completely unwarranted nerf.

[@alexandermichels6022]

I feel like all of the Sisters nerfs individually make some sense and if we had only been hit with a few of them, it would have been fine, but they didn't need to hit us with ALL of them at once.

[@slammgames7425]

Yep they made our best and most usable detachment pretty much useless and entirely different. As well as our core rules being vastly worse plus remotely all our best and most useable units that generate miracle dice. We barely even have a use for miracle dice anymore. Legit don’t know how sisters win games anymore

[@RockmeHellsing]

@@slammgames7425 well i have then for a half a year now played 4 times. all losses because every time i can field less sisters are they stupid?

[@RoryF100]

Sad to see they learnt absolutely nothing from the CSM nerfs

[@mrplimbles7803]

@@RoryF100 CSM nerfs were different. As an ex CSM player, we won 2003's 13th crusade against Cadia, and they didnt like it so we were doomed for meh codexes for years and we still havn't been forgiven

[@basteala525]

I think nerfing miracle dice had to happen. From an opponent standpoint it was just not fun to play against. Ever. But if they were going to nerf Sisters this much--they really needed to cut points too. Not that I'm saying that's an end all solution, but Sisters being a bit less elite than marines I feel sort of makes sense (although something akin to elite glass cannon to differentiate from Skittari might have been better anyway). I'm not sad about Miracle dice, but I'm sad you guys got nothing to speak of in exchange.

[@IW-44]

Literally no reason to take Cadian Shock Troops compared to Krieg. Sticky objectives isn't even close to making up for one less special weapon, regen and better damage.

[@Bluecho4]

Gee, I wonder if GW is priming the pump for the forthcoming Krieg range expansion...

[@Wind-Whistler]

@@Bluecho4 No way!

[@kevlonk]

NGL, as a Sisters player these changes hurt a lot. I agree that BoF and the Triumph needed a nerf, but they didn't need to go this far. This hurts all Sisters builds, not just Bringers of Flame. Also I am boggled at why they hiked the cost on the Exorcist again. Few people were using it because it was already so bloody expensive.

[@bensemusx]

They didn’t need a nerf. Has everyone forgotten Sisters already got nerfed last dataslate? They were right at 50%. That’s not nerf territory.

[@davidcox6454]

Still better than dread talons

[@avlaenamnell6994]

as a casual only player who allready struggled against tougher more durable armies. holy shit i dont think ill be playing sob any more

[@sockMonster241]

Grey Knights having a rough Christmas lol - Space Marines psychic detachment - No 3" deepstrike - True silver nerf

[@jeremiegartner464]

Every army would like your new detachments rerolls to hit and wound if you think it's no good.

[@sockMonster241]

@jeremiegartner464 Other armies have actually anti tank weapons dude. Go make a list and tell me how you feel. We have a 44% win rate and we just lost armor of contempt and 3" deep strike, idk what to tell you.

[@CS-rm1cf]

Dreadknights

[@sockMonster241]

@CS-rm1cf Man do I love running 6 of them

[@alias-yv2ro]

@@sockMonster241dreadknights

[@chikumori5530]

Seems the B-team got the balance dataslate. Guard in ruins before their codex somehow while Eldar not?

[@gfazekas25]

@@chikumori5530 CWE struggles to get X-0 games while Guard tops tbh thats the most eyecatching difference, also eldar gunna get another 10month nerf spree after codex hits as always

[@edmundgennings3025]

The oath of moment buff is particularly powerful at the lower point level where I typically play. My army only has 7 units so almost all of them can be oath of moment targets for a round.

[@william9557]

This is definitely the issue of playing smaller games. Its balanced around games of 2k. Oath falls off at 3k games due to so many units on the table Drukhari are killer in smaller point games

[@JimH.]

Said this on another video and I'll say it here: some nice changes but my take is twofold for Space Marines: 1) GW isn't selling enough of certain units and while the changes for HI, Reivers, Outriders, etc. are definitely positive, they aren't turning SM from a 42-44% army into a 50% one. These units still suffer from lack of ability to kill any type of unit. No melee weapon upgrades for units like HI and Outriders means they aren't killing elites, Reivers still won't kill anything with better than a 4+ save, nothing can reliably chip vehicles or monsters, etc. 2) GW hates the Fire Discipline combo and wants it gone but doesn't have the stones to simply remove and replace it. Repeated points nerfs to the enhancement and the models that made the best use of it (Apothecary Biologis, Aggressors, Eradicators) and now a complete GUTTING of the enhancement itself without reverting said points nerfs is just atrocious. On a related note, please someone explain how Typhus and Deathshroud Terminators remain dirt cheap but Aggressors are 40 ppm with their combo all but destroyed?

[@swiffer25]

100% agree with this! all the Gravis Models are still too overpriced compared to any comparable units in different codices. Free my Aggressor Boys from Fire Discipline jail!

[@Proto1Dude]

I can explain the Typhus thing! 40k has reach the critical mass of being "too big to fail" so Games Workshop puts inexperienced and/or incompetent designers on that team, while better talent gets assigned to systems that actually have to stand on their own merits.

[@jw7500]

Don't agree with the take on Outriders and Reivers here. Outriders with s5 Ap1 Dmg2 on the charge with a Chaplain on bike is a serious melee profile. You will actually see them now. (We might even see genuine White Scars, Outriders at OC3 is kinda spice). Reivers just turned into one of the best objective skirmish units in the game. Note that they can reduce OC of something below one. A unit of 5 with a appropriate Lt is only 135 pts. That's a good objective yoink unit on a stick. They also attack with AP1 in melee now.

[@JerichoPaulhus]

​​@@jw7500not just that in my army (Blood Angels) we already got +2 strength +1 attk on the charge so with a Chap on bike we have 30 attks at s7 -1ap 2dmg wounding t6 and below on 2s that's pretty spicy

[@jw7500]

@@JerichoPaulhus yup. Blood Angels are murder bikes by the looks of it. White Scars seem to be the number 1, fast objective bully. 3x 6 bikes with S5 Ap1 and Dmg2 2 on the charge *AND* OC 3. Good luck bullying 24 wounds with T5 off of an objective. Not to mention that in the Scars detachment they can advance and charge + fallback and charge. And finally, the Scars detachment has acces to a 1CP defensive strat to give a whole 6 man Bike unit -1 to both be hit and wounded by shooting for that turn. That's really hard to peel off an objective.

[@Ferox2121]

Its really craazy. Sisters went from Top Tier to Balaced to Trash within the span of three months. Great job James, great job.

[@wyatttyson7737]

Guard really only needed a nerf to 3” deep strike and maybe a points increase to the Lord Solar, but instead we got gutted. The Scout-Mera is dead, the only Infantry Squad you’re running are Dearh Korps, and Aquillons are never going to be taken. Nerfs so bonkers you’d think we were on a 80% winrate, not a 52%.

[@nickrivas6429]

Don't forgot some units just don't get the army rules or orders anymore with the lord solar nerf. Baneblades and ogyrns

[@triplea657aaa]

Guard needed more than the 3" deep strike hit... guard was the best army in the game...

[@quincykunz3481]

We deserved some slight nerfs, and for once I actually think they nerfed all the right things, but they were too harsh. If the nerfs were all 5 points lighter that would've probably been perfect. Guess we'll see what the codex does, and how many data sheets we lose.

[@sangerzonnvolt6712]

​​​@@triplea657aaa 2nd best. GSC was better with necrons, sisters and deathguard behind them.

[@wyatttyson7737]

@@triplea657aaa Not even close. In even in the ballpark of “best.” A single broken unit was an issue, the rest of the index is mid at best.

[@redcv6706]

As someone who is literally just starting a Sisters army (as my first army, no less): oof. owie. my bones. At least my army won’t be properly playable until likely the Summer Balance Datasheet releases, so things will probably have been normalized by that point.

[@cas5950]

Ask tau about that lol. This is a brutal grounding of sisters. Let's see What lvo shows, but it's closer to shelf than just under performing. AOF is nerfed due to the core of AS being gutted. BOF was taken out back and shot, PH never was good, I guess hallowed martyr could function. If we get anywhere near 40% I'll be shocked

[@FhtagnCthulhu]

New GSC player still trying to finish painting and... I am just tired at this point. We didn't get burned to the ground like sisters, but this is like the third major revision to our army rule since I started buying units and it just looks a bit sad and boring. Maybe I should have started with one of the mascot armies.

[@beckkels6358]

Same here man, it is discouraging

[@bensemusx]

@@cas5950yep. Betting around 40% or lower. Even if there’s technically some play it just seems really unfun and way too much work to be worth it.

[@RMCbreezy]

If you haven't even played and are still building your army your opinion doesn't really matter. play then we'll talk

[@thatonebisexualnerd1370]

The Ravenwing enhancement change was a mistake. At the bottom of the warcom article it says that they're changing Mounted Strategist to get re-rolls to Advance and Charge, not Master of Manoeuvre. So Ravenwing keeps the Turn 1 Reserve drop

[@slammgames7425]

Welp sisters are packed away for a bit. We were barely over 50% and they decide to crater us into the god damn ground.

[@matjov]

You only play your armies if they're top tier? Sad.

[@banjoskeleton8399]

​@@matjovdoesn't know what top tier means

[@optionallemon9262]

​@@banjoskeleton8399Sisters of Battle consistently rank among the top armies in terms of overall win percentage. They've been top tier for the entire Edition. Are you new or?...

[@matjov]

@@banjoskeleton8399 so you're saying that they haven't been one of the best performing armies? Try paying attention to the meta before spouting.

[@banjoskeleton8399]

@@optionallemon9262 current win rates are 50-51%. That's average, not top tier. They have been powerful throughout most of 10th, but they were pretty much balanced. If you wanna talk design, miracles were too important for sisters and toning them down was necessary, but not replacing them with some other buffs is a wild choice.

[@triplea657aaa]

T'au DID get a big nerf. 6" deep strike means no melta on the sunforges. That's a 36% damage nerf on one of the primary reasons to run Retaliation Cadre, which is T'au's only detachment with a positive winrate... EDIT: it's actually worse than that since they also lose the AP, so land raiders now get saves and non-sunforges have no reason to use the 3" deep strike...

[@Casey_Rides]

It's honestly super disheartening. We had ONE solid way to get suits into that 6" range and it's just gone now.

[@Klierowski]

Most of stuff can't just get deepstriked intro melta range, good change.

[@TheGeneralSkye]

​@@KlierowskiMost armies also have either longer range melta (18" on mutimeltas) tough vehicles to tank incoming damage or something else going for them other than shooting. This strategem was a key piece of playing this detachment (the highest winrate one) and it being functionally destroyed actively makes the detachment worse and impacts the viability of the other strategies in the detachment.

[@triplea657aaa]

@@Klierowski I agree that it's a good change. The problem is that T'au isn't a real army right now. Ret Cadre was the ONLY detachment that had a positive winrate and T'au only got a nerf to a seldom-used unit that probably should've been legended a while ago. They should have got a minor buff, but they received nothing. Most armies received buffs and T'au got nerfs while they're already below 50% winrate (49%, so totally fine if everything is stable, but if things are getting buffed, they start falling behind) and they're one point of strength got nerfed. Kauyon and Mont'ka are already at 45% winrates...

[@Lapogo1]

Yeah. Seems to be an odd time to return after an 18 yr hiatus as T'au from the 5th ed. Came back with plasma rifle ranges significantly reduced, rail rifle ranges also reduced, fusion blaster ranges also reduced and stealth suits not have a real "stealth" ability anymore past 18". 😅

[@Silverdragon83X]

I totally love, that they made Vanilla Marines better AND made them more fluffy by improving the thematic units. I hate, that they totally forgot Imperial Agents and things like Kult of Speed and Buggies of the Orks. But overall cool changes, even if it seems to be a bit arbitrarily

[@slippyboi6361]

Lets be honest, I don't think anyone really cares if Agents aren't doing well, they shouldn't really be a full-army faction to begin with. It's a cheap cash-grab that's more expensive to build than Admech

[@AndrewBolitho-i4n]

Wonder if the ork grotmas is going to be focused on buggies?

[@bensemusx]

@@AndrewBolitho-i4nthey already have speed freaks for buggies. Wouldn’t make sense to get another fast vehicle detachment.

[@BrandonL337]

Honestly, the Space Marines changes are pretty nice all-around, the Oath's boost is great for compliant chapters, and divergent chapters still get spicier Reivers, Outriders and Intercessor's to play around with too. Though I kinda wish that the Chapter Master = OC2-3 for thematically appropriate units had just been done by making them battleline(and maybe applied that to divergent chapters too?) but that might've been too good.

[@dudemcfurgusson7179]

18:28 - "I still say they're one of the stronger factions in 40k" 22:08 - "I would expect sisters to flip to being one of the weaker armies in 40k after this" He read the changes and his whole tune changed in less than 4 minutes.

[@auspextactics]

The first bit was talking about them pre dataslate

[@dudemcfurgusson7179]

@auspextactics it still sounded funny the way it was spoken, hearing the flip made me chuckle in the light of my faction getting absolutely obliterated.

[@ordohereticus5530]

The fact that they finally mercy killed Fire Discipline but let Typhus and his Deathshrouds remain untouched is absurd.

[@Klierowski]

Yup, GW favoring some factions much more than others.

[@MrUdarr]

Yeah Typhus needs to go back to 100Pts and DS atleast 10-15Pts, they are so Tanky. No wonder to see that they get taken 3x6. also would give Morti a Nerf too, this dude is for 300Pts also way to tanky for that Profile.

[@Brakmek11823]

RIP Tau tho, no changes for the 3" DS nerf, still 2CP, and Tiger Shark got nuked out of the one Detachment that played it, so the only Detachments that could actually place or top tourneys both got hit. Second dataslate in a row where Tau pay for other factions' sins with no compensation to speak of until the MFM 3 months later. And RIP to half the 2 playable Aircraft.

[@dariocenciarelli1090]

As an unending swarm player…I get you

[@daaaah_whoosh]

Tau got off a lot better than others. We only got a 3" deepstrike from a 2CP stratagem in a single detachment, and now we don't have to worry about any other army doing it to us for free. And yeah sure aircraft nerfs suck but the writing's been on the wall for a long time now, GW doesn't want aircraft to be good.

[@mikhail628]

What is the second playable Aircraft?

[@UniquelyAwful]

@@mikhail628 I think the dark eldar thing????

[@thelonewolf9866]

Infernus marines with S6, AP -1, + 1 to wound (with oath), OC2 and "Assault" is now a thing in Firestorm... RIP light infantry 💀

[@william9557]

Using oath for them is highly wasted on a unit that doesn't need to roll hits. Theyre already killing T3 on 2s

[@william9557]

Using oath for them is highly wasted on a unit that doesn't need to roll hits. Theyre already killing T3 on 2s

[@stephenball-qo7ug]

6 helverins 5 warglaives 3 moirax with conversion beamers, add the imperial agent priest at 40pts for the HQ 2000pts on the dot. 168 wounds on the mini knights with a 6+FNP and reroll a hit and a wound roll.

[@grud8495]

Intercessors have become what I got out of them as ultramarines in 9th. I got to shoot twice with my 10 man unit because of a stratagemn, which could then be 40 shots. now they all get it. it's a massive boost and I'm partially happy its back. intercessors are actually good again.

[@starcommander7589]

I'll probably chuck them in the back of the executioner to get out on the obj and to help to destroy the living hell out of my friend poxwalkers

[@thecarre3770]

Imagine 60 of them

[@BrandonL337]

They really seem like something that can be actually useful instead of just using them to sticky objective my home objective before running around plinking at low toughness targets.

[@The_Penguin_8964]

They can finally become a threat (at least I don't want my ranger get close to them😅) instead of action monkey, that's the Space Marine I want to see🙈 Will it become hard to beat？yes, but hey, Marine player deserves all these buff👏🏻

[@rickkcir2151]

@@thecarre3770 240 shots might be enough to kill Typhus and his DS terminators.

[@0AbsolutZero0]

38:43 It was changed to get rid of the cheese you could do where you have infantry around him then use Go to Ground, which gives you a 6+ invuln, then DP says that invuln is now a 4+ invuln. Now you have to have already had a 5+ invuln

[@_Morph1ne_]

I don’t understand why GW hates the baneblade so much. Why can they not get orders? The admech steal all our vox units or something?

[@PanicAttack445]

Yes we have stolen your vox units, and no you may not have them back.

[@chikumori5530]

They also hate Bullgryn, Ogryn, and Ratlings, apparently. Also Aquilons. Melee whiners won.

[@Grassouillelafripouille]

@@chikumori5530 I know it's the salt speaking but come on aquilons deserved the nerf

[@dhkatz_]

I feel the same way with the Heldrake, they refuse to make that thing good even for a little bit. I just wanna play the cool looking units 😔😔

[@nein4599]

They deserved A nerf, not this one ​@@Grassouillelafripouille

[@realllybadgaming9216]

As much as I wish they would give us old Oath of Moment back and nuke that whole "Extremis Level Threat" detachment, this is 100% a step in the right direction for players who refuse to bow to GW's whole "You must pick a chapter" system

[@agent_hippy8855]

Are we all going to ignore Grey Knights only got nerfs this patch when they already werent doing that hot?

[@rottenpotato9290]

Hello I work at GW for balancing and we basically want to make them a 30% win rate army. Also we have a big hate for the space marines ! Cheers

[@ShadowOfLaw]

@@rottenpotato9290 Yea, yea especially with new changes.

[@agent_hippy8855]

Basically feels like the grey knights are getting forced into the new grotmas detachment and getting punished if they don't

[@andrewpotamitis8725]

I like that when nerfs target marine style units GK cop the backlash but when they hand out small buffs they do not change the GK in line. Such as the combat knives…. Missing the point that they are the exact same knives but didn’t get changes because GK don’t count as Astartes when it comes to keywords.

[@adamarcher3240]

Yeah kinda feels odd they'd gut the previous detachment so hard and shove us into only playing this one. Then one cool thing we could have fun with DK spam they nerf the points on them just enough to make it worse... purifiers it is i guess with there non existing invuln.... and yea ik they have a strat but still doesn't seem good enough to be spamming cp for invuln.

[@runeh3022]

As a CSM player it's a bit frustrating to look at all the love and care the SM's are getting that are actually functional, while we at best got a bunch of usekess sidegrades but kept the ild cost the last time around. I mean, OC 0 chaos spawn that does what Reivers do... A 65 pts "Kommizar" that grants free overwatch for a unit of Traitor Guard... Possessed that were never really competitively a meta thing getting nerfed alongside the MoP that was also in the same category... Just to point out a few. Half a dozen units that are still so immensely overcosted that its laughable and not a single detachment where they are viable to boot. The detachment tomorrow better be spectacular...

[@jeremiegartner464]

Plus aoc nerf to the 2 good detachments we had

[@RMCbreezy]

Them nerfing AoC killed 1 of the 3 stratagems for Renegade and Raiders. That's what I play usually considering half my army is cultists and traitor guard..looks like I'll be switching detachment occasionally

[@aleczandergordon1298]

Are we getting our new detachment tomorrow?

[@hti5795]

CSM really does have many overcosted units. (The Heldrake being a prime example). But at least the predator annihilator got a nice buff

[@runeh3022]

@@hti5795 it was a nice buff to a sub-par unit, which all the competition also got, so I'm not sure it will matter much at all. better than nothing though for sure, but I don't think that change does much for cSM overall.

[@luxus0784]

The drukhari change was personal. It was aimed at one specific tournament list. It makes absolutely no sense, especially after GW tanked win rates of Skysplinter Assault. I really hope the Grotmas detachment will give us something, else it's gonna be 3 months of below-average performance on a boring detachment that doesn't do anything (RSR).

[@Hyenadont]

I was holding a lot of hope on this dataslate just so I could maybe have a little more fun on the table with my agents. We have the lowest win rate and get tabled by everything, we needed help. We got a nerf. Fuck it, GW just wants agents to die, I'm going back to chaos knights

[@bensemusx]

I wouldn’t ever expect Agents to be good. It’s a weird army and never really made sense from the beginning.

[@The_Penguin_8964]

​​@@bensemusx Is it even an army🙈

[@Impgent]

From lore, looks and variety it is by far my fav army. IA players do not expect a miracle, but at least a little something to give us a slight chance. I see a lot of potential within the codex as the theoretical toolbox is phenomenal. Heal units like necrons, uppy downy and move tricks like eldar and many specialities. A few keyword corrections, a few pts drops maybe - maybe - one viable damage dealer >S10 and we would be ok. A real army rule would be cool, of course, but maybe this would be asking for too much. I stick with my opinion if GW is selling a codex it has to live up to certain standards but I will also continue to play IA on a competitive level and every W will be even sweeter. And to all the IA haters out there who keep telling it is fluff only and not a real army - imagine your own army at a winrate

[@Djones0125]

As an Anvil player... im looking forward to shooting 20 shots, hitting on 2, and getting a +1 to wound if I don't move

[@LordCrate-du8zm]

As a fellow Fists player, fuck yeah.

[@Djones0125]

@LordCrate-du8zm I should have played imperial fists. I actually play Ultramarines.... because i liked blue when I first started

[@lostwithalens]

@@Djones0125 Sounds like you're the proud owner of blue Imperial Fists going undercover as Ultramarines

[@Djones0125]

@lostwithalens I did use the tor Garadon model for my Chapter Master

[@william9557]

​@@lostwithalensnah, he's playing a blue successor chapter 😂

[@jeremiegartner464]

Outriders..huge buffs. Ravenwing bikes..buff. custodes bikes...buffs. Chaos bikes...6 bikes is less.what!?! Also CSM, the only detachment that uses raptors, nerf. AoC nerfs to other detachments. Zero buffs.

[@runeh3022]

@@jeremiegartner464 but isn't it amusing to watch the SM's even get their knives fixed with ap1, while half our roster of datasheets are sub-par to downight laughable from a competitive point of view? :-P Even our "Epic" characters often seem to get stuck with the more shitty version of any ability in the game, despite their lore. Even their stats are questionable at times (looking at you tiny Huron model that is supposed to represent a massively big chaos lord with your T4m or Fabius Bile with your instant respawn from daeath not at the end of the phase).

[@ThomasCundy]

Baneblade chassis just getting made obsolete currently with solar change. Not sure why it doesn't have the squadron keyword.

[@damnationdan5253]

Because GW wants you to buy more!

[@ArCSelkie37]

Every dataslate/balance we catch another stray and get fucked in the ass. We can't move (other titanics have no issue and some can ignore terrain), then we can't overwatch, then we get no detachment, then we get no army rule. Cool, thanks GW.

[@HyperDrifter_EN]

51:24 dude the assimilation changes are so good, last time i tried assimilation i only ended up using the rule to regen twice because i got pushed off no mans land obj where i could actually regen anything

[@freybrand1617]

Auspex to the rescue for my boring day at work.

[@jw7500]

Some very big changes here. - Intercessors good, Reivers good and Outriders good....what a time to be alive - A reason now to take non-UM characters (particularly Khan, Lysandre and Shrike) - Ultramarines worry me though..... Roboute Guilliman, even with the 60 pts hike is *insane* now. That, and his combo with Calgar also still works.

[@dylanstocke724]

My Crimson Fists eating good this patch.

[@william9557]

Now you guys just need a pedro kantor primaris model

[@gergohrusko2672]

The world eaters demon prince nerf is to stop Jakhals from getting a 4+ invul. The whole combo is to take the guaranteed extra FNP from the army rule and when shot, spend 1CP on Go to ground to get a 6+ invul, which in turn will give you a 4+ invul from the demon prince, as you technically have an invul and get the improved version. So it was possible to get 20 models with a 4+ invul 5+ FNP for 1CP, which GW doesn't like

[@leoschue8071]

an extremely funny combo that was basically a competitive nonentity, so it's unclear why they took aim at it at all

[@Swampert919]

@@leoschue8071someone at GW just hates the idea of world eaters getting anything fun.

[@RMCbreezy]

I feel they just don't like invulnerable saves and feel no pains together​@@Swampert919

[@nanomachines8023]

Feels bad being a Sisters player > Triumph nerfed into the ground (again) > Nearly all Strats at 2 CP > Tanks are at +20 points > Even the Imagifier is worse Man

[@davidcox6454]

Still better than dread talons

[@troutwarrior6735]

Lord Solar orders nerf is BS, there should be SOMETHING that can order superheavies

[@davetorres1893]

Feels like the Super Heavies should be given their own ways of being independent. Similar to Kasrkin, they should be able to order themselves.

[@UniquelyAwful]

@@davetorres1893 okok where's my canonically revived Yarrick with his Fortress of Arrogance at???

[@ArCSelkie37]

@@davetorres1893 give me back the Tank Ace upgrade where you could make one of your super heavies an officer from last edition. It's fucking dumb that we have a £90 model that is almost literally unplayable in nearly every way.

[@misinformedsquirrel]

No buggy changes :( *sad Orky noises

[@felixzimmermann6848]

I actually think that the new data slate was good for Dark Angels, because with the Ravenwing buff, the new Lion‘s Blade Detachement was seriously improved. You can basically build a brick with DWK+ Termi Chaplain and Fulgus magna enhancement and basically drop that brick TWICE with a 7 inch charge (+2 inch if ravenwing are engaged with the target)

[@victordavila9812]

Thank God for that bike change they were nearly unusable before now they actually look useful

[@william9557]

Wish they kept the turbo boost in addition though

[@stripeybag6977]

NGL in Blood Angels I'd consider the Reavers with the AP buff and combine them with the Invictor Warsuits which are great anti horde and have a weirdly strong Melee attack.

[@william9557]

Reivers shoudlve already been in the list haha

[@jedwilson1233]

Man, I was hoping to see unending swarm for the space bugs get some love after they got gutted by the universal nerfs to respawning units and surge moves. Glad to see assimilation getting some limelight, but I miss my horde of little guys being even somewhat viable.

[@Cornerboy73]

I'm glad Lion got his deadly sweep attack back; now if only he could regain his -1 to wound on that shield. I still don't understand how he, as a primarch, doesn't have Deathwing and Ravenwing rules pre-baked into his profile.

[@bensemusx]

Also means he doesn’t interact at all with the detachment named after him.

[@leSmokySmoke]

I love everything about this update! Iron hands +1 to wound. Salamanders -1ap flamer with +1 wound. one of my Knights list is just 110 Points cheaper, giving me a whole new extra knight. Chaos Knights might actually have a rule now sometimes! Tyranids Assimilation buff is appreciated. Genestealer changes are amazing! all my armies are better and feel better now!

[@AWPtical800]

What you forgot to mention with T'au is that Retaliation Cadre got its heart ripped out by the 6" deep strike change. 2CP for a tighter deep strike, but now you're not in Melta range or get the AP-1.

[@myersmayhem2023]

51% win rate needing a nerf as big as it was is crazy Its win rate was literally inside their target percentage Guess we need to over halve the faction mechancic and make sure the only good detachment is dead and gone

[@TheBoardProgrammer]

Not complaining about the change to when the Waaagh is called, but we will need to update Meganobz, Krumpin’ Time Ability to while the waaagh is active instead of During the battle round in which you call a Waaagh!, models in this unit have the Feel No Pain 5+ ability.

[@bensemusx]

All ork waaagh abilities are now while the waaagh is active. They changed this when they reverted the brain dead warboss nerf.

[@bobfrancis123]

As an Eldar player, I hear the nerfs to Sister's Miracle Dice, and my response is... "First time?"

[@niccogiova6728]

Really wish for gw to make legionaries with bolter viable as intercessors

[@WontonDestruction]

So much jealousy looking at all the marine changes, where is our bikes +1 damage on the charge? 😅

[@davidcox6454]

lol we can’t even get ap on our bolters. A .75 caliber rocket propelled explosive round is weaker than a hotshot lasgun. At least our 6 man bike squads are slightly cheaper though right.

[@niccogiova6728]

@@davidcox6454 yes so sad

[@davidchildress4378]

MORTARION HAS WHAT?!

[@Kupari9]

Deep what now?

[@Kell_Craask]

"He's right behind me, isn't he?"

[@The_Penguin_8964]

I mean, when a titan-level war machine can have stealth in some condition, won't be suprise if Mortarion have deep strike🙈😂😂

[@Zeldaytal]

Sisters codex was less than 6 months ago. Its an unrecognisable book today. As if it was something from 3 editions ago. I get GW trying to "keep it fresh", but this rate is just too fast.

[@Argumemnon]

Yeah I agree that, for a casual player, this is moving really fast.

[@vineheart01]

I kinda feel like every army that was in the low 50s winrate they should have flatout left alone. None of the changes for said armies seem wise, even if I did think sisters got too many miracle dice before.

[@brewingtutormtg]

As a T'au player: Look how they've massacred my boys.

[@ChrisPrice12]

Time for my 1st Company to hit the table. Just finished painting my kitbashed Lysander as well.

[@lorenzkroh755]

damn, i bought 2k points of sisters for a steal from a friend last week. he just called me, laughing his ass off

[@alias-yv2ro]

Unless you bought the sisters specifically because you were trying to metagame, and not because you actually liked the faction, then your friend is being mean

[@markhickson1066]

Sell them to me at an even bigger knock down, now they won't be meta. I don't chase meta but play for fun with armies I like. 6, 12, 18 months, 3 years, 5 years they will be top of the meta again and I'll put them away as there is no fun in winning with an easy army.

[@william9557]

Play for fun, not for temporary rules

[@BuddyWithTheSideburns]

I can't help but wonder if the relative lack of support for Agents of the Imperium is derived from the assumption that the Venn Diagram of "People who Play Agents" and "People who Played Deathwatch and Want their Army Back" is pretty much a circle. I know my Xenos Hunting focus has shifted back...

[@JCMiniPainting]

The DA Enhancement change is incorrectly listed btw. It's mentioned way at the bottom of the article. The actual enhancement that they're changing is Mounted Strategist, but they aren't gonna fix it til January.

[@Majere613]

Something that isn't mentioned here for Orks- the new Tankbustas popped up in the app. Two units, Tankbustas or Breaker Boyz, both five strong, 4+ save. Tankbustas get all Rokkits except the Nob who either gets two pistols or a pistol and an anti-tank, anti-monster hammer, get +1 to hit/wound vs monsters/vehicles . Breakas get anti-hammers as well but with Devastating and Hazardous, re-roll charges vs anything and have bomb squigs. Both can have the same leaders as Lootas so Mek keyword is obtainable.

[@holdenchambers3986]

Drukhari's nerfs were extremely unnecessary. The last update was brutal and took ssa from a decently balanced, maybe a touch too strong detachment, and completely kneecapped it to under a 45% winrate pretty much ever weekend since. None of the nerfs got reverted, the scourges they need for heavy firepower support going up. Realspace raiders was seeing some success but not much still at top levels, now its got hit too. If anything incubi should have gone down by 5 points per 5 and gotten something to buff hellions in ssa. Talos would have been the thing to nerf if at all in rsr instead of scourges and 6 man grots. This balance update is starting to show GW doesnt understand how to balance certain factions or doesnt care.

[@NightStalkerSoC]

Nice... And I just bought my triumph of St Katherine this week-end........ 😢

[@coldstar2035]

i love how t'au got no buffs and just got indirectly slapped with the 3" deepstrike nerf.

[@kabriii]

Chaos got slapped for armour of contempt nerf while also having received too no meaningful buffs whatsoever XD some units are still over costed or useless. Tau should had received some love too

[@mrigank3855]

its for the good of the game. Tau firepower is still excellent and have a wide enough roster to do stuff with

[@davidcox6454]

@@mrigank3855what about dread talons though lol that was literally their only good strategem they have a win rate in the low 30s (been awhile since I checked) what did they get to make up for this change that is so good for the game. I mean I get it 3” deepstrike was too good in certain detachments but some didn’t get the same use out of it and for some it was literally the o my good thing they had and now they have nothing.

[@zcecron22]

@@mrigank3855 they barely had 50% winrate with cadre, now they are going again to the bottom tier. second time tau suffer for other factions being unbalanced and again zero compensation

[@FhtagnCthulhu]

As a new GSC player, I feel disheartened. I didn't like the random aspect to the army rule, but the new version is not exciting. I am also just sick of changes. I would love to have a version that is closer to the index: making opponents interact with the markers, which barely matter now. Right now it is so predictable and settled, it doesn't evoke the feeling that the index did to me. Even just adding some way to regen resurgance points over the game would be great at making it more dynamic. I know it always mattered more at the start of the game, but I feel like this is going to result in us basically not having an army rule for most of the game. I *really* wanted a stronger rule and a points cost bump. This army is so time consuming and expensive to collect.

[@Argumemnon]

I think for the cults, they should get some of those resurgence points back every turn or something. Even just 2 could be enough to keep the reinforcements going.

[@draviandelta4016]

Yeah not random anymore is good, but I was really hoping to get a different, more flavorful rule that did away with resurrection mechanic entirely. Getting ~ 300 extra points of units is still such a lackluster army rule.

[@RotSpew]

It doesn't help that the old rule did more when it brought back a unit that was worth more, then they drop the chance, then they drop the unit cost, and finally now we have set unit values for returning them, so where as we at one point had rolls that reflected the success of our cults campaign or setup for Ascension day now we have a system that basically just adds a set amount of added units which represents nothing. The fact we only get back what's dead forces a new value system of almost wanting certain things to die sooner in order to regen best value rather than before where we could be just all round reckless with the knowledge we would get a rough percentage back (which again is more flavourful, the whole cult is selfless for the cause.) They don't realise the connection of lore and affiliating the mechanics with the methodology of the armies they just warp numbers and keywords without actually having it represent anything tangible to the imagination. That more than anything makes game lawyerly, don't care how long rules pages and books get if the things they do are thematic, it's when it's arbitrary number games that it's not worth the time.

[@joshuasutherland6692]

My IG combined regiment that runs most of that stuff: lmao, lemau even.

[@davidcox6454]

Wow so chaos space marines do t get any buffs for the shitty detachments they have. There are literally 2 really good ones 2 ok ones and the rest are just objectively bad. I kinda hoped they would buff some of them like dread talons and deceptora but apparently only some factions get buffs to their subfactions.

[@manyslayer5889]

Have not been enjoying 10th and I think these changes have made it that I doubt I will play again before 11th (primarily sisters with chaos marines and all firstborn deathwatch as alternative armies).

[@osogitzgraymane72]

Now, if only they would give Khan back his bike

[@JimH.]

Wow, the entitlement @ thinking the leaders of the bike army should ride bikes... 😄😄

[@frostedbutts4340]

@@JimH. Ravenwing chads stay winning. Scars and other first foundings deserve SOMETHING though.. just one special unit for each would be a start.

[@atiredgoblin9861]

Forgot to mention that the 3" rule change (while fully valid and warrented) nerfed Dread Talons. Which makes an already unappealing detatchment (coming from a Fluff focused nightlords fan) into a detatchment that I'm not even looking in the direction of anymore. Which sucks, because I want to play my Nightlords as Nightlords. Given the armies that are in my playgroup/area, I can't justify playing the detatchment that is designed for them. Which just feels so wrong. Am I missing something here? If so, please let me know. I just want to enjoy fun rules. My Grey Knights and Nightlords have been getting shafted left and right after 9e (in my personal opinion)......

[@davidcox6454]

They were terrible even before lol I mean like low 30 percent win rate terrible along with most of the other csm detachments but not they are definitely toast that was literally their only good trick and now it’s gone. Seriously was hoping for some buffs to the lamer csm detachments but apparently that’s only for certain armies. I also play night lords but yeah I can’t justify dread talons and this just makes that even more the case.

[@RMCbreezy]

The armor of contempt rule screwed 1 of the 3 good strats on renegade and raiders

[@bigsmallplanet7715]

GW really increased space marine character costs across the board, and then saw mortarion, deathshroud, and Ctan and were like… keep em low cost.

[@NotALongTime]

This feels right: I started collecting genestealers yesterday

[@thahoasje]

What I dont get about the gravis captain; why not have the assault keyword on the heavy bolt rifle. He's still better in tune with agressors. Intercessors seem very strong now tho. Also for the 6" deepstrike: I would like to see inceptors lose it, but reduce the points cost quite a bit, and have reivers gain it with their grav-schute, or make some special rule that they can do it on a flight path of a flying transport for some combo restriction (hell even make it 3" in that case)

[@malal6512]

GW: Hello fanbase, we noticed Space Marines weren't top of the winrate in tournaments, so we're nerfing ALL other factions into the godamn floor and buffing space marines to artificially force higher winrates due to janky and unbalanced mechanics, you can thanks us now.

[@LysimedVenteel]

I’m excited to use some of the new rules, they seem cool enough… BUT WHY COULD THIS NOT HAVE BEEN IN THE CODEX? The book’s behind invalid now. Either do digital, updated, easy-access rules or release books at the start of the edition and don’t change them.

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

Some key points Space marines: WERE SO FREAKING BACK! Genestealers: It’s so Joeover… battle sisters: BUY THE BATTLE FORCE BOX, PIGGIES!

[@vanichga2811]

So true about gcs players feelings

[@benkafka3653]

Sorry what? This is the best update GSC has gotten all edition. Our army rule WORKS now

[@keirhardy6470]

Love the genestealers change, now I can actually go in with a plan rather than the whole game relying on me rolling a 5. Tokens not being mandatory is great as well, struggled to make them stick sometimes. Think I might try a suicide bomber meme list with Xenocreed. 6 respawns should kill something lol.

[@colinfanning9854]

Bummed about my grey knights nerfs. Feel like they are losing some identity as a tanky mobile army.

[@hunterhammer6109]

Yikes, still cant use my deathwing detachment, and even nerfed it, and no good dark angels stuff unless I go out and buy 280 dollars worth of bikes, half of which would be first born and be ctr alt deleted in a year

[@jorgeluishidalgo2894]

i'm drooling for trying the buffed sternguard with the Librarians detachment, 10 man strong with full bolters/heavy bolters and the enhancement to give them 5+ anti vehicle/monster and possibly sustained 1, with the oath full rerolls that combo is nasty.

[@BlackKaiserDrake]

RIP the Trygon, its only use was Rapid Ingress up close. Im not sure what it can even do now.

[@blacktemplar2982]

Well it helps me a bit but i was expecting more for marines and then they shafted other armies or did nothing for them. Amazing job GW.

[@bugmanzgaming9054]

"Norn Emissary - already good" yeah... sure, whatever you say, Auspex

[@ribbityray5381]

We are not cooking with World Eaters

[@ThatXLazerXGuy]

Does stewing count?

[@Utahraptor777]

Nids are eating great with this update!

[@gregtso7505]

Holy crap Heavy Intercessors have damage 2 bolt rifles. Imperial Fists chads are winning rn

[@ThatXLazerXGuy]

I just want a darn foot lord for my World Eaters GW is that so hard. Maybe by the time Space Marines is a novel on the dataslate, well actually get some internal balance.

[@hugoalonso9752]

As a SM bikes lover, i think their buff is enough to give em a shot. Whit a chaplain they get somewhat scary, and not too expensive.

[@therealaY]

Thank you for the overview. It's very helpful to get the information this way!

[@swogg4586]

We are eating GOOD, MARINES!!!

[@sir_tacothe1st]

BLESS THE EMPEROR!

[@StarkMaximum]

Fucking finally.

[@LordCrate-du8zm]

WE ARE SO ROBACKE

[@JasonM69]

Tyranid assimilation swarm is eating you, though.

[@EdBurke37]

The Custodes welcome you to the table as we too feast

[@729060]

Why would I ever take any of the non krieg guard options now that they all cost the same. Also I get why solar got nerfed but he's such a staple of every list