EP 140: Gender: A Wider Lens, Live from Denver with Chloe Cole

Welcome to a special edition of Gender: A Wider Lens podcast! Recorded live from Genspect’s The Bigger Picture Conference in November 2023 from Denver, CO, USA with special guest in-person appearance from the delightful detransitioner, Chloe Cole. Hear Chloe share candidly about her journey through gender transition and detransition. From the challenges of societal expectations and the pressure to conform to gender norms, to the emotional impact of undergoing hormone therapy and a double mastectomy all before the age of sixteen. Chloe opens up about the highs and lows of her trans identity experience. Discover how she navigated the complexities of self-discovery, faced online backlash, and eventually found purpose in advocating for detransitioners' rights. Gain insights into her aspirations beyond the gender discourse, including her passion for creativity, fashion, and the desire to build a family. This raw and honest conversation sheds light on the often untold aspects of the transgender journey, offering a unique perspective on resilience, self-rediscovery, and the pursuit of a meaningful future.
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If you liked this episode, more episodes you might find interesting:
Genspect Speakers Playlist
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[@ScottFortney]

I'm in tears as I write this, both out of sadness and hope. Thank you, Chloe for giving this old dad that hope. My daughter has been pushing to transition since she was 15. My wife and I would not allow it, telling her that she will have to do that on her own when she turns 18. Well, she turned 18 a couple of weeks ago, and has begun making plans, including the testosterone treatments. We feel like we are alone in this fight against an army of doctors, therapists, teachers and other strangers cheering her on. All we want is to stop her from ruining her future and landing in a worse state of depression than she's ever known. If only we could open her eyes to see what she's doing to herself. Again, thank you for a bit of hope in this madness.

[@singingway]

It is similar to indoctrination into a cult. There are videos about how parents intervene through using actual cult deprogramming techniques. Is there any possibility of taking her on a trip involving physicality like surfing, snorkeling, climbing, wilderness, ocean, whitewater rafting? Something that gets her away from the constant cult input?

[@Beserious795]

You’re definitely not alone. So many of us out here mourning the loss of our daughters to this. May they find peace and happiness in themselves, and sending love in solidarity.

[@Theworstaltinthesystem]

Shit, I was here as a parent. I really feel for you. It's an absolute mine field. I know how hard this is but all I can say is you're doing the right thing. X

[@jollygoode4153]

More power to you Chloe, such courage to do keep doing this, so composed and thoughtfull. A really great discussion.

[@robertmarshall2502]

I often feel pessimistic listening to personal stories but despite the difficult nature of the conversation Chloe really leaves me with a sense of hope. The tide is turning.

[@casebeth]

I so appreciate y'all. Balanced views are so hard to come by.

[@ornellagreco4918]

great host! but also kudos to Stella and Sasha, you're really good hosts

[@jeng3609]

Yeay! I was hoping for a video from Denver! I attended a talk by Chloe at Dartmouth this past year.

[@NorCalMom]

Chloe! Thank you for sharing your story with us. I foresee an amazing future for you! As an artist and a parent of a trans identified teen, I too have had an artist block for the past two years during this saga. Hearing you speak of this, I want to say, it will happen! Your creativity will come when it’s ready. Welcome it. It will guide you and help you process all of this. As an artist, a creative, caregiver, whatever path you take you will bring grace and passion into the world. The world is so lucky to have you as a part of it. Hugs!

[@angelesangeles7515]

As a mother of a teen who is struggling with their identity and got sucked in the gender cult…I thank Chloe for speaking up and sharing her experience.

[@shannonsayshi]

Awesome interview 👏 Thanks for everything you all do to shed light on this and for your compassion and willingness to meet ppl where they're at. ❤ Chloe is a great ambassador for both kids in transition who may be struggling with feelings like she had and for those who've rejected their transitions as she did, but don't know how to move forward. You would've stayed in the "trans community" had they made a place for you... I'm sorry for all the loss you've had in your young life, but also inspired by your perseverance and strength. You're a 🌟 !! Bravissima Chloe!

[@MelStubbsMusic]

This was a really beautiful & insightful interview. I hope Chloe & other people going through detransition continue to get personal support. As someone who cannot support gender affirmative 'care' for so many reasons, I couldn't help but wonder if the praise & attention received from publicly detransitioning could be detrimental to someone's long term mental health and self perception after the process is seen to be 'finished'. So it was good to see some focus on who are you outside of the 'gender world'.

[@Jo15673]

I think some of the public destransitioners are going to struggle when the hubbub around trans dies down and the public loses interest. I don't think it's healthy to involve attention and the public in one's personal troubles. But their contribution is currently needed to help counteract the mainstream propaganda on this issue. & one way not to heal from and never move on from trauma is to focus on it, forever, and make it the center point of meaning in your life. But people seem to want to make their 'trauma' the focus of their life forever.

[@joane24]

I think that praise and recognition is important, because you need to remember, not everyone is accepting towards them. Actually the 'mainstream' isn't, they're quite much rejected by the dominant narrative, because they're seen as 'dangerous' to the whole ideology, by just existing. They also receive a lot of hate from the trans community or some progressives. So the praise is important, because they need to know they are supported and they are heard and validated.

[@Jo15673]

@@joane24 valid point regarding the need for praise given the trolling and abuse they get from the trans movement. I def overlook that. I have a bit of a black and white thinking negative/judge-y bias towards for what I see as a modern trend of using trauma/negative life experiences on social media for attention, so I sometimes am overly harsh in my assessments.

[@robertmarshall2502]

​@@Jo15673I think you both made valid points. It's certainly a concern that when this unsustainable mess dies off ppl will lose interest in those caught in the collateral damage. I think the "trans-allies" will be in an East Germany post Berlin wall situation where they all claim never to have taken an interest and the detransitioners will be picking up the pieces. I think it must be very difficult as a detransitioner to not constantly ruminate about gender, the path you were led down and to forgive those around you who supported those decisions.

[@janelliot5643]

​@@Jo15673is very appropriate to be harsh against the billionaires funding the propaganda and the doctors profiting from the fastest growing Medical Market in the world, SRS, and completely inappropriate to be harsh against the victims

[@lolalaise4530]

Thank you ladies so much❤

[@kirstycat]

Oh I love hearing Chloe Cole speak, great episode all.

[@Theworstaltinthesystem]

Leaving aside 99.9% of the reasons that gender ideology as it stands is dystopian, the fact that a child not only experienced this but at 18 has to be a public figure and the voice of reason about it whilst still grappling with what just happened get maximum dystopia points for me. Not to mention the reaction that plays out as a consequence. I cant get over the courage of Chloe and others like her. Putting your story out there is huge for so many reasons. I just find it absolutely heroic

[@wendyhopper104]

Fantastic interview!

[@viviennedunbar3374]

Chloe is so poised. It’s incredible to know what she has gone through and yet she is able to articulate her experiences so well. It’s obviously taken a lot of courage for her to speak up but she has become a role model in so many ways.

[@robert3096]

I agree with so many of the observations below. Chloe Cole is a courageous and intelligent young woman who makes it clear that the current mainstream and progressive attitudes toward transgenderism will continue to lead to human collateral damage. These personal human tragedies will ultimately be overlooked by the very people who perpetrated them when the litigation grows and popularity of this subject wanes. Just like in the 80's and 90's with repressed memory phenonomenon. Chloe is brave. Thanks to Stella and Sasha for their continued work.

[@machtnichtsseimann]

My deep gratitude for this conversation, this video. This is the best of Social Media.

[@AmyMilne-fq6hq]

Just joined your patreon. I loved this interview. I look forward to what you create in the future.

[@richardcrook2112]

She really is absolutely adorable.

[@alancoogan7029]

It was shocking to learn that Chloe had never heard about detransitioners before she began her own journey of detransitioning. If that is correct, it means that none of the licensed professionals who provided transition-related services disclosed to Chloe in their informed consent document that some people who transition do later detransition. It seems to me that a patient who did not receive that information cannot be said to have given informed consent to treatment. This is something litigators should look into when they sue health care professionals for the harm they caused their patients. A finding to that effect by a court could send shock waves through the gender affirming medical care establishment.

[@janelliot5643]

Excellent point. Thanks for making it

[@machtnichtsseimann]

Great point. Informed Consent sure seems to be subjugated in favor of politically-oriented ideology and financial greed. NOT the job of Medicine.

[@krystin_stand4truth]

The gender affirming doctors do NOT disclose that. Nor disclose the negative, health changing effects

[@BR-cy8rp]

What a lovely conversation! Chloe is an amazing young woman with a beautiful light surrounding her ❤

[@Kayla-mf9se]

Thanks!

[@widerlenspod]

Thank you!!!!

[@meretriciousinsolent]

I relate so much to the humour thing.

[@MRsnuggles-u9i]

people NEED to acknowledge the underlying misogyny and homophobia to this. these are such important components and people need to finally acknowledge how serious sexism is. its not a joke, girls don’t want to be girls because they think girls are inferior. I hope people don’t brush over that when this all blows up.

[@lilith3953]

The stereotype that "women aren't funny" is so pervasive, and yet some of the funniest writers in the English language are/were/have been women: Jane Austen and Georgette Heyer.

[@meretriciousinsolent]

I love Taylor Tomlinson. She's got some serious dark funny energy.

[@janelliot5643]

I'm sorry that stereotype has risen in your lifetime, Jerry Lewis started it out of deep Envy for Lucille Ball

[@jennifermorgan6913]

As a trans person myself, I have a lot of respect for Chloe and her decision to detransition. I believe that medicalization was the correct path for me, I transitioned in the early 1980's, but there were much stricter protocols and I really wish that we would return to t 33:09 hat 'gate-keeping,' most especially for teens. The current trans-activist narrative boggles my mind. Thanks, all three of you, for all that you do.

[@John-tr5hn]

I'm really glad Chloe shared what it's like to be a teenage boy because we tend to focus so much on teenage girls that we lose sight of the fact that adolescence can be very difficult for boys as well. Obviously, girls are very mean, but if you're a guy and not big or tall or muscular or popular, you used to get picked on all the time. For no reason. And it was just accepted. I'm talking about being physically assaulted, sucker-punched, groped ("in jest," of course), etc. Until you fight back or get some friends who will fight with you, it just never ends. I say this as someone who went to all private schools. I can't imagine how much rougher public schools were when I was growing up. And unlike what Chloe's describing, no, testosterone doesn't build slowly in boys either. It's just suddenly there and your horny all the time and are trying to hide your erection if though you don't actually know why you have it, and you just can't stop thinking about girls. For hours and hours and hours at a time.

[@John-tr5hn]

The tide really is turning on this socially, but I think it's really important for Chloe to continue to seek out non-right-wing spaces for her presentations. There's nothing wrong with conservative or non-extreme right-wing spaces, but if she continues mainly to speak there, fewer people will listen to her and the many of the ones who do already don't believe that trans people exist or will dismiss her as right-wing prop. I'm glad she's in this space, and I'm really glad that she doesn't change her story to fit the audience. She tells it like it is, and she's very brave to do so.

[@widerlenspod]

Unfortunately, it's extremely hard for Chloe, and others like her, to get opportunities to speak in "non-right wing spaces." Perhaps we need a major campaign of people contacting MSNBC requesting she be invited on.

[@John-tr5hn]

@@widerlenspod This is not a right-wing space. There are plenty of media organizations and fora that aren't ideological in any direction. I'm just saying I'm hoping Chloe can get her message out to some in some places other than those who peddle in election lies and conspiracy theories. MSNBC would probably be impossible, but the NYT, the Washington Post, and many other newspapers have podcasts. Plus there are plenty of intellectuals who would have her on their podcasts, I'm sure.

[@shadow.banned]

Oh good, the audio was fixed.

[@angelesangeles7515]

Not sure if Chloe is religious or not but there is a song that I would like to dedicate to her. Hope she sees this message and looks up the song. “For Such a Time As This” By Amanda Nolan

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

I think sometimes we are too self obsessed and that`s how the trans lie gets in

[@mr.mclibtard5015]

Anime seems like a common denominator

[@panninggazz5244]

Anime has a way to smudge/cloud/soften things. No sharp edges no wrinkles, no blemishes, no obvious sin.

[@DorianPaige00]

No anime for me in 1988. What a grift!

[@Paradox-dy3ve]

This is so stupid... Like have you considered that correlation and causation aren't the same thing? People of a certain age are online all the time, and people of a certain age grew up watching anime. Has it not occurred to you that the overlap might be due to simple generational differences in media consumption? Because I don't think all these Gen x transexuals are watching anime lol it's the Gen Z ones... And Gen Z, in general, watches anime. Demonizing fun TV shows is a really stupid way to tackle this issue. People who watch fantasy shows are more likely to be into escapist storytelling. Escapist storytelling probably appeals to the same people who literally pretend to be a different sex to feel better about themselves. Gen Z trans people also probably play video games a lot. Are video games causing the trans epidemic now?

[@TormentedDreamer]

​@@Paradox-dy3ve I'll have to second this one. If you look at the entertainment market for the under 30's market, much of Western media is *so* stale it borders on unbearable. Anime has its flaws but at least it still has artistic freedom, and pride in creative skill. On top of that, while physically the Japanese prefer more androgynous looks the gender roles are still very much binary, much to the chagrin of the woke.

[@robertmarshall2502]

​@@Paradox-dy3ve​Firstly the OP said anime is a common denominator not that it caused transness. It doesn't seem logical to just ignore a possible factor. Especially because Chloe was talking about the link she saw whereby forums connected to anime etc. were talking at an unusually high rate about trans identity. I think video games and digital avatars might have a role to play because they are a separation of mind and body. The ppl who are perennially online seem to be more affected by this ideology because their online self and physical self are in a way literally disconnected. They aren't outside living in their actual body. The images they post of themselves aren't them. As to anime itself, to anyone outside the bubble the character models are horrendous (to a lesser extent this is similar to avatars and video game characters). The images of "women" are far too often a disgusting mix of hypersexualised and infantile. It's clear to me that many teenage girls are looking at the images of women they see whether filtered Instagram pics or anime or porn and opting out. Meanwhile some teenage boys are opting in partly having been exposed to anime porn from a young age. I think the males are probably fueling autogynephilia and confusing the object of their attraction. I've seen a ton of trans and non-binary ppl use anime characters as their prototype and I don't think that's entirely a coincidence. They identify with completely unrealistic ideas of men and women. I don't think the majority of this generation watch anime either. I think a small sub section consume it heavily. I've had this discussion on the steam games forum. Steam is staggeringly full of anime porn games. The correlation between those who vehemently "defend lgbtq+ rights" (except never lgb) on those forums and ownership of those games is strong.