EP.9 | Romans 9

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St. Verena American Coptic Orthodox Church

St. Verena American Coptic Orthodox Church

Күн бұрын

Episode 9 of the Into The Deep Podcast is live! Father Theodore and David Guirguis discuss the topic of predestination and Romans 9!

Пікірлер: 20
@ttewolde106
@ttewolde106 4 ай бұрын
Great post. Presented in a way a novice like me can understand. Thank you. God bless both of you.
@msvd10
@msvd10 4 ай бұрын
Great videos. God bless
@TheRomans9Guy
@TheRomans9Guy 4 ай бұрын
It’s very important to remember that Paul’s argument in Romans 9 is a defense of his main teaching, that the Gentiles have now been invited directly to God’s eternal kingdom through the Messiah and do not need to become Jewish to enter. His argument in 9 is against all of the unbelieving Jews’ theologically errant beliefs, objections, and accusations against him.
@TheRomans9Guy
@TheRomans9Guy 4 ай бұрын
22:09 “It can’t mean I only want to have compassion on some people.” CORRECT. It does not mean that.
@TheRomans9Guy
@TheRomans9Guy 4 ай бұрын
25:55 You’re right to be looking at this chapter and sense that the idea that Paul is teaching that God chooses may be wrong. Because it is. The part that everyone misses is that this chapter is Paul’s refutations of the Jews’ arguments that they alone are the chosen of God and that what Paul has been teaching, hat God chooses all people is wrong. And Paul is masterfully taking all of the OT identity stories and he REVERSES THE ROLES. He’s doing this to show the Jews that IF God only chose some people, it would be the younger, the new ones coming into the Faith, the Jacob’s, the GENTILES. And that the Esau’s, the Pharaohs who are trying to keep the Gentiles out, the JEWS, are wrong. Paul gives a clear demonstration of how he’s reversing the identity roles in Galatians 4. It’s a very insightful passage.
@TheRomans9Guy
@TheRomans9Guy 4 ай бұрын
10:42 So, Paul’s point here is sarcasm. He isn’t teaching that God loves Jacob and hates Esau (nor is he using the “loved-less” usage that so many attempt to bring in) he’s using the Jews’ oft used slogan that they trumpeted against Gentiles, but he’s spun it around in reverse and is using it now against them. Showing that by their actions they would actually be the Esau, IF God really did hate Esau.
@TheRomans9Guy
@TheRomans9Guy 4 ай бұрын
22:44 “Why not allow everyone to be saved? Why not save everyone?” HE DID. Rom 5:18. He forgave everyone. Now everyone can surrender, have faith and repent, and God will grant him eternal life. (On a side note, if you’re asking why doesn’t God just make everyone repent, that would make us all robots, or no better than the animals. It’s a key part of what makes us humans that he gave us free will to choose to have faith or not.)
@TheRomans9Guy
@TheRomans9Guy 4 ай бұрын
20:06 Wait, you read Romans 9 where God says he can have mercy and compassion on people…AND YOU THINK THATS A BAD THING?!?! Re-read the passage. Paul is presenting the idea that God can have mercy on the Gentiles if he wants to, even though the Jews are objecting furiously that God wouldn’t do such a thing…and you’re concluding that somehow that means God is choosing some and not others? Come on man, you have to do better!
@betelhemabebe2763
@betelhemabebe2763 4 ай бұрын
They are saying the opposite
@TheRomans9Guy
@TheRomans9Guy 4 ай бұрын
@@betelhemabebe2763 I went back and registered to this section. No, you’re wrong. The speaker quotes 9:15 and immediately asks ‘isn’t that the most random and unfair thing to say?’ And he’s not being hyperbolic. He means it. He sees that passage as promoting something unfair. It’s something loving. For God to declare he can have mercy on all people if he wants to is the opposite of unfair. It’s a terrible display of reading comprehension.
@betelhemabebe2763
@betelhemabebe2763 4 ай бұрын
@@TheRomans9Guy are you being for real? Go back and hear it he saying if we actually didn't understand what it actually mean it might sound like that but it's not and he explains.
@betelhemabebe2763
@betelhemabebe2763 4 ай бұрын
​@@TheRomans9Guydon't rush to argue
@TheRomans9Guy
@TheRomans9Guy 4 ай бұрын
@@betelhemabebe2763Are you connected to these guys? I am being real. The expert here is saying some really awful/incorrect things here in this video. I’ll grant that at least his conclusions are mostly right. He’s not presenting, for example, what Calvinists promote. But as I listen and re-listen to this he’s badly wrong in his thinking in several ways and he’s confusing both the host and the audience.
@ragnarragnarsson3128
@ragnarragnarsson3128 4 ай бұрын
St. Augustine of Hippo (4th century): In the case of him whom He permits to be deceived and hardened, his evil deeds have deserved the judgment; while in the case of him to whom He shows mercy, you should loyally and unhesitatingly recognise the grace of the God who renders not evil for evil; but contrariwise blessing. Nor should you take away from Pharaoh free will, because in several passages God says, I have hardened Pharaoh; or, I have hardened or I will harden Pharaoh’s heart; for it does not by any means follow that Pharaoh did not, on this account, harden his own heart. For this, too, is said of him, after the removal of the fly-plague from the Egyptians, in these words of the Scripture: And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go. Thus it was that both God hardened him by His just judgment, and Pharaoh by his own free will. (On Grace and Free Will, ch. 45)
@ragnarragnarsson3128
@ragnarragnarsson3128 4 ай бұрын
I think the argument you are making based on God’s foreknowledge vs Calvin’s TULIP is one of semantics but not having a real distinction based in reality. What is functionally different from saying that God chooses some for glorification and some for destruction vs saying that He foreknew their deeds and selected their future and His interaction with them by this?
@ragnarragnarsson3128
@ragnarragnarsson3128 4 ай бұрын
I see St. Augustine’s view that I posted above to be the correct “middle ground” between the free will guys and the predestination guys. Yes Pharaoh chose to harden himself and is therefore guilty of his sin, however God removed His preserving grace according to His plan which we humans are not privy to, which allowed for the hardening of Pharoahs heart. God is the potter, we are the clay, we are not in a position to judge God or call anything He does “unfair”. Shalom
@TheRomans9Guy
@TheRomans9Guy 4 ай бұрын
30:40 “hopefully you’re on the good side” There’s no “bad” side in verse 15. In verse 15 Paul is speaking about how God is also having mercy on the Gentiles, so that all people now have his mercy. Then in 19 he switches his focus to the Jews and he’s warning them that if they refuse his message, God may choose to harden them, just like how his hardened their hated, evil nemesis, Pharaoh!
@TheRomans9Guy
@TheRomans9Guy 4 ай бұрын
18:31 All of this difficulty surrounding Gods foreknowledge is unnecessary. You only have to jump through these hoops if you’re trying to find a way to support the idea that God is still good, even though he chooses some people for eternal life and some for eternal death. The good news (literally) is that he doesn’t do that!! That is not what Jesus or Paul teaches.
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