ep381 - the bottisham four: what color were they REALLY?

[@jimaltergott9326]

Love this video Will! I personally don't care: whatever color, etc, etc. Sadly, for some- as you communicated- they do care & WAY too much!! 🤯 To those I say: R-E-L-A-X

[@daviddillon5908]

Thank you Will, always love watching your videos. Deeply appreciate the time and effort you put in to keep us informed and entertained at the same time!

[@40ftinc.42]

Blackguard...definitely Team Blackguard. Thanks, Will. Jenesis, who you recommended a while back for her foiling prowess, and who now entertains us regularly when you go off down your rabbit holes, is building this very plane currently so it's nice to see the gory internets take on the blue or not thing laid out clear.

[@luisfernandogaleanomartine96]

As allways, no matter how long your videos are, they are allways, like this one, entretaining and deeply informative. Thanks a lot.

[@carlb436]

This video is total awesomeness. I really appreciate the effort you took in making this. I'll sign up for The All Blacks (even if I am not a Kiwi). Shot K25 and 64 back in the day even though I preferred the look I got using Fuji for colour slides. Which was not that often. My go to was Tri-X.

[@stephenthomas2311]

Thanks, Will. I'm convinced and your analysis is both methodical and logical. Diggin' it. Best regards, Steve

[@davewellings6281]

Love this, best hour of my week so far! The arguments over this has made me laugh over the years. I was looking into this for a build a few months ago and I just couldn't see green, blue maybe, certainly dark. My final conclusion.......I didn't, bloody withdrew from the rabbit hole and built a Spitfire instead! All I can picture is a member of the ground crew with a big mixing pot chucking in a bit of this and a bit of that and hey presto! Maybe some blue a bit of black, yeah that'll do. What always did strike me though was E2-S in how Matt it was, maybe something, maybe nothing. Anyways, great work and very enjoyable viewing. btw I also thought about those P-47's not too far down the road...Ideas spread.

[@FinsburyPhil]

Will, I really appreciate your effort to get to the bottom of this using something based on fact - and I'm so disappointed in the vitriol you were afforded for doing it. This should be an interesting and lively debate on a topic that in reality absolutely doesn't matter one jot in the scheme of things.

[@jamfjord]

Always a pleasure to watch one of your analyses, Will. I learned a lot, foremost being that we don't know shit for certain based off photos, and we probably never will. But they most likely weren't green...

[@jamfjord]

PS it's no surprise whatsoever that you're getting so much hate - team green already painted their models; it's easier to argue with someone on the internet, than strip and repaint them. They really, really don't want to have to repaint them.

[@kitbuster]

Love it, great analysis Will 👍👍Blue / Black gets my vote

[@robertforrest1763]

Who cares how long the video is I enjoy listening to you and have learned a lot from you.

[@daneshivers2921]

Really, really liked this one, Will Great job! Dane

[@jasonmartin5488]

Mega analysis! Love it. UK

[@ramonlomeli3306]

I really like it when you go into GURU mode. you state your case about as objectively as one can. Sidenote, if I ever can be bothered to build one of those, I may be tempted to do the upper surface camo pattern in green/blue/black mottling just for bait!

[@patrickhagelstein1810]

Yep! I’m one of those five! Ridiculously cool video!

[@PennysPitstop]

Thank you for your video. This is one of those subjects that to some, could end up very very boring and dull, yet somehow you have made it a very interested listen. I do enjoy your videos, and the length, as they are just oerfect for putting on as background while I build my own projects. Thank you for your service to You Tube.

[@mattdriesenga4770]

Amazing video. Well documented and well presented. I appreciate you letting us walk through this with you. Fascinating! (and I agree, blue/black would just be completely badass!)

[@Aceshigh109]

Very interesting regardless of where you stand on the subject! Its fascinating reading and hearing about these WWII color debates and controversies, especially as Im a modeler and a history buff.

[@Mors_Inimicis]

One thing is for certain, they weren’t the shade of blue used in some of those utterly dreadful current P51 restorations in 361st FG markings you see on the US airshow circuit 😂

[@sildurmank]

Terrific video Will!!! Loved it! Dunno if you remember me but I used to be quite an active member in the SCMCG on FB, but I dumped my FB account a time ago after not having used it for a long time, too much social media time I was spending before. But I've have liked to comment this topic with you and the guys there. And funnily enough, I do have a pending model I wanted to build as LOU IV so I was already into the topic and you really didn't have to push me a lot about your result. I'll definitely be following the rabbit hole… 🤣 Thanks mate!!

[@melvilib]

Quite happy to follow you down that rabbit hole. As an amature photographer, scale nut and a stickler for getting it right I have had smilar verbal fist fights over what colours should be. Kodachrone 64 and 200 were my go-to slide films

[@SMAZVidoes]

Great research. One of your best work. Regards

[@barrywhitfield930]

Great video. Learnt some new stuff. Defo with you on the dark black/blue colour!

[@stephenpollock8325]

Thank you sir, makes more sense than anything else I've heard or read. 👍

[@rustneversleeps7094]

great research. I love this kinda stuff. I'm sure it's a pain, but much appreciated.

[@olivieraubault1994]

This analyse was really instructive to keep getting a critical eye on what we believe we see.

[@KHModelWorks]

That was a great. Well thought out, and informative video. 👍

[@pzspeed]

I love this shit!! I love learning new stuff. Nice detective work. And thanks for taking the time twice. To make this. Take care, Patrick

[@ronaldbyrne3320]

I AM planning to build a model of E2-C in 1/32 scale so I would have gone down this rabbit hole even if it was two hours long. 😅 Yours are the best-explained and most-sound reasons that the Bottisham Four had a bluish-black colour on them. I wish you had included a look at the top of the wings too, because I can see two distinct paint colours - on the outer wing areas and the panels where the D-Day stripes were overpainted, as well as about a third up the sides of the wing root - in a WWII photo of E2-C in a slight bank. Thank you for this totally fascinating discussion Will. 🙏🏻

[@barpfoto]

I wanted to but the problem is we only have black-and-white images of the upper surfaces as far as I know and they don’t really add anything concrete to the debate.

[@ronaldbyrne3320]

@@barpfoto I’m wondering if the wings were in olive drab with the D-Day stripes section overpainted in the bluish-black seen on the spine of the fuselage since there are clearly sections with apparently different coloured paint? I would be grateful for any light you can shed on this. 🙂

[@barpfoto]

@@ronaldbyrne3320 when it comes to Charlie we will probably always be left with nothing but speculation since as far as I know the only photos that show the top of the wings are black and white. You can see some variation in tone, but will never know exactly what color was there. E2 Sierra on the other hand… I think it's a pretty solid color everywhere.

[@ronaldbyrne3320]

@@barpfoto that is true. Thanks Will. ❤️

[@Duececoupe]

I vote for ridiculously informative! 😉🤜🏻🤛🏻🍻

[@Duececoupe]

I do hope for a Part II....😉 Excellent video Will, as always! Not really having any money on either horse in this race, I'm just thinking that it's WWII and you use whatever you have and what you can get your dirty mittens on and sometimes you mix what you have and get a shade of "WTF"!? 😆😂 With the 56th FG down the road (well sort of) from 361st, I can imagine that there was some borrowing, swapping and what not, and with the colours those 47's found themself in at times are just....😎 Plus, having worked with military colours in Sweden and our famous or for those who had to paint it (me included) infamous splinter camouflage, the amount of times that we'd receive a new batch of paint and it didn't match the previous one, particularly our dark green and light green, difference in shade which would make you think "what the hell happened here!?".... As you say, the dark horse team start to look rather dope! 😎🤘🏻 Keep these deep dives coming young Padawan! 🤜🏻🤛🏻🍻

[@barpfoto]

@@Duececoupe there may be a follow up. I've already been silenced in two mustang groups. Lol.

[@Duececoupe]

@barpfoto Well, as the age old saying goes....the truth hurts sometimes! lol Imagine that, being silenced or blocked, just for thinking outside the box, how very mature, adult of them! 😆😂 After watching the video, I've been eyeing up the 56th Thunderbolts and their different blues etc., thinking about all kinds of scenarios regarding the 361st camouflage. With the 361st and 56th being not that far apart, I'm sure that there were other FG's close by and RAF squadrons as well, and as with all good neighbours you borrow from each other or swap.... I'm definitely looking forward to your future take in 1/32!

[@Duececoupe]

Didn't the 61st FS almost have a black, blue camouflage on their P-47M's? 🤨🤔

[@barpfoto]

@@Duececoupe those are the thunderbolts I mentioned.

[@LouisKowolowski]

[@heidihobear]

I believe they are a shade of black. With the blue part being a reflection of the sky

[@kenhanson1819]

Great analysis, Will. I believe you backed up you conclusions with your obvious expertise in photography. The blue-black definitely makes sense, considering the close proximity to the blue-black P-47s based down the road. Thanks for making this video!

[@candicecook5051]

Great video! I have always thought they were painted black, I even drew them as such when I was a youngster. I'm now going to finally build them and they're going to be painted black! Thank you!!! 😁

[@whtalt92]

Let me throw in a curveball and say I'm more partial to EDSG. Extra Dark Sea Grey is a very dark grey with blue tone and it is one of the stock MAP colours for Coastal Command. Now *that's* going to upset some people :D

[@jamfjord]

That thought crossed my mind too, but as Will points out, black is just cool, and almost black dark blue is even cooler, so I'm going with that and Rule 1 😁😅

[@barpfoto]

Certainly a possibility and I’m open to any sort of out of the box thinking.

[@bengreen171]

"That's right Dougal. Sometimes you see lay people wearing, what look like black socks - but if you look closely, you'll see they're very very very very very very very dark blue."

[@davidd708]

As much as I enjoy your normal rambling style, the more prepared and focused vibe of this one was great. One additional team-blue-or-black point that you might have missed (or that I missed... it was pretty long) was that the "Kodak corrected" photo has the sky itself a distinct GREEN shade. Maybe using the color-picker on that to show that it is clearly over-corrected to generate a green tone on the aircraft would persuade some of them. Oh, who am I kidding? Anyway, nice work, and thanks for sharing this AV creation with the world.

[@pheasantplucker8183]

Very interesting video Will. I have a lou IV kit in my stash and it was my understanding that the planes were painted OD on the upper surfaces with invasion stripes and then the stripes painted over with blue paint the RAF used to paint their vehicles with. (maybe from the Dana Bell article) Theres the black and white photo of lou IV in flight which indicates that different colours were used. A lighter patch of paint on the upper wing, where the stripes would be, which matches the colour tone of the paint that covers the upper spine stripes above the star and bar can be seen. An interesting thing about that photo is that the wing root ‘pattern’ matches the same tone as the black in the lower fuselage invasion stripe.

[@barpfoto]

I have that photo as well but I choose not to even discuss it because it just doesn't bring anything to the conversation. It's interesting that the paint on the fuselage is lighter and I think you can clearly see that there may have been something darker underneath it but there's just no way to know what color it was.

[@vilmoskercsmar2547]

You are absolutely right. I am an aircraft guy, but I have to admit that our kind is the worst in the whole scale modeling community. I know a lot of people who literally hate each other because of similar debates. And there are the '(over)weathering-is-the-worst-sin-of-the-university'-type guys, they are typically aircraft modelers, too. I agree with your opinion, it would be nice some patience and tolerance in our hobby.

[@bazwabat1]

Fascinating video. Sadly some people don't like being told (or even believing) they are wrong. And react childishly.......you only have to look at the current US political race for that! Here in New Zealand our WW2 aircraft were sometimes repainted in a "best match" at the time, as we had trouble borrowing paint for our US friends plus we didn't have an actual paint trade in the RNZAF until post war so some of the paint peeled off in places. I recall one UK "expert" claiming our SBD Dauntless' were painted in RAF camouflage. The photo used showed the demarcation lines were actually shadows from other aircraft and breaks in the cloud. Also the paints we used faded really quickly in the Pacific sun (not to mention the abrasive coral dust). And of course most of our photographs are black and white with all the strange things that happened to some of the colours.

[@SEMJW]

I agree with you to the end, Will. Researched for a P-47M project and came to the same conclusion that a combination of RAF blue and black was so dark it could look black depending on the ratio. We know the 357th used RAF dark green on their P-51s. There is the famous Bud Anderson story of casually commenting to the ground crew that the snow was on the ground after a mission and the camouflage paint should be taken off to bare metal and silver painted wings. Emotionally he then tell of seeing his P-51, Old Crow the next morning to begin another mission. The ground crew worked all night to remove the camouflage. If this was standard practice not only invasion stripes but the camouflage would be considered short term so standard issue may give over to available colours. The anti glare in front of the windscreen would be from the factory so it was not repainted unless damaged or someone had the ambition to alter. Only record backed factory applied paint can be trusted for colour. Sorry to hear you had such negativity with this. I have had disbelievers with overly confident strong opinions anytime I have commented online that in service RAF Spitfires had the leading box section of the wings 'levelled up' by filling in rivet recesses and rough areas with putty and primer filler as the practice calls for on all 'High Speed Aircraft'. This was common to bring up with the new 1/24 Airfix Mk.IX and VIII kits that have the rivet detail. Just trying to help the people that are striving for accuracy do it right. Their old kit and Kotare mimic the levelled, no rivet surface. I have posted on my channel an official RAF training film that proves the methods performed for high speed aircraft and shows the use of putty and primer filler. If you have not seen this film, I know you will dig it, Will.

[@MisterGsWorkbench]

I don't have a dog in this fight but this was a great video! Honestly, I would have tended toward blue before your explanation. The levels of nonsense over plastic model airplanes is silly. Thanks for the entertainment!

[@matthewjohnston8768]

You had me at ridiculous. 👍

[@michaelwalsh7437]

Nice job Pattison

[@MVR1911]

Thanks for the video Will. I know nothing about everything and thought from the beginning “it’s black and Will is going to say it’s black”

[@derekbowen5867]

I didn't have time to listen to the full hour so not sure if you addressed this. When I was researching my build for E2S, I found a document that described the squadron's base green color (FS#) that was applied in the US and the British-procured dark green paint to paint over the invasion stripes after D-Day which didn't have a specific color code description. Did you address this document?

[@barpfoto]

Never even heard of it, but I would certainly like to see it.

[@Charger44]

Really interesting video! One point, i keep looking at the colour of the fuselage insignia. It is a flat insignia blue, and this is a known colour that i dont think changed during this period of the war. It sure appears very dark in lots of the ww2 era photos you showed.

[@R08U5]

Very entertaining and sad to hear about the mindlocked reactions you got on (other) 'social' media. You laid out a credible story for me at least. Personally I am looking forward to the ICM's B-26B currently lying in my stash. So far I only found limited reference photo's and there was some interesting painting going on with these birds as well.

[@jonculp3080]

That makes perfect sense!, why wouldn't they use RAF night that the 56th FG Thunderbolts used just down the road! Either way, I'm going to have to do a Mustang in this scheme just because I can! I've always struggled to see the blue or green in this photo, but this kinda makes sense. Thanks for the obvious work you put into this! I really enjoy your channel and look forward to the next update.

[@arniek6682]

Enjoy your content! Very detailed is right! What happened to Doogs models? No content posted You two are my fav! Thank you!

[@RaduB.]

I had lost my sleep around 4 o'clock this morning so I started browsing the KZbin... Bad habit. Almost fell asleep watching a Japanese guy building the new Celica 1600 from Hasegawa, when I saw your video and thought firstly "oh no, not that rabbit hole again!..." and then "right, one hour long, perfect, I'll just win my night back by drowsing while listening to this..." But I ended up being fully awake. Interesting analysis but I would like to point out that the fact that the photo is underexposed (not by much, true) makes it even harder to reach a solid conclusion by analyzing it. Because we loose colour information either by overexposing and underexposing the film... The use of a polarizing filter is indeed highly probable. That would also explain the lack of lustre on the paint. Anyway, not having access to the original, I had nonetheless excluded both Olive Drab and "blue" since long time ago. I like your Night theory! 👍 I wouldn't also exclude the use of Extra Dark Sea Gray. Any gray would be more probable than either green or blue.

[@barpfoto]

ok, buuuuut..... There are specular highlights on some areas. I'm actually glad you brought that up, because I totally didn't even consider that could have been a vote against a polarizer. As far as it being under exposed… When you lighten the photo, it doesn't change the color… Just the luminosity value. So I maintain that whatever's in there is still going to be available as long as those pixels aren't blocked up or blown out. And they're not.

[@ekmad]

I don't know jack about photography but this feeds my inner nerd anyway. FWIW, as for modelling, if you have a reasonable thesis then just paint what you want. They weren't pink but I'm not going to lose much sleep if someone goes for RAF Night, RAF Dark Green, US Olive Drab or even RAF Blue-grey (which admittedly is my personal preference).

[@tempestnut]

Loved your video, so sorry you get the idiots trolling you, and some who should know better. The only small comment I have is the thunderbolts you point out as having been painted black and dark blue were 56th FG P47M's from Jan 45, and the 361st FG I believe painted the upper surfaces of their Mustangs as they would have received them late April early May 44 as they converted from the P47 to P51. The 56th FG at this point painted many of their newer Natural Metal aircraft in various interpretations of the RAF disruptive green/grey, the majority of their P47's still being Olive Drab Razorbacks. The Bubble top P47D-25 was only just coming into service in May of 44. It is entirely possible that these aircraft had some hastily concocted dark blue painted on their top surfaces. Later as Urban Drew recalls the aircraft may have been painted Olive Drab or dark green. As you pointed out those aircraft in the photo were not around long, and paint supplies would have caught up with demand post D Day. The 361st along with 352nd were based on the Continent for a while later in 44 and early 45.

[@johnkelly2098]

Count me in with the 5 who give a shit. Excellent video. I am beginning to believe that flat earthers and moon landing deniers are becoming the majority of internet users.

[@kylehood1657]

*slowly raises hand at the back of the class...* Would an in-depth examination into the colour of the anti-glare panels bear fruit in this argument (assuming of course, that they weren't repainted after arrival in England)? Olive Drab, Dark Olive Drab, Dull Dark Green, and Black are all options i have found (in a forum post by Dana Bell, so take that how you will) with a quick google search. Dull Dark Green I thought was rather interesting as this is a blue-leaning dark green, which although in contrary to your evidence arguing for black, could explain the back and forth between green or blue.

[@barpfoto]

@@kylehood1657 it’s a fair point that I chose not to get into just because I couldn’t include everything. But yes… One of the number one arguments that team Green uses is that the antiglare panels were always olive drab. Which as you point out is simply not true.

[@kudukilla]

Gabreski even claimed the underside of his P-47 was unpainted, and painted gray at different points in time.

[@jcwoodman5285]

Ha!... I was right all along😏

[@jimrichards3621]

The wings n horizontal stabilisers, whadabout them, covered in part deux right?

[@barpfoto]

Unfortunately, there's not much to say because there are no existing color photos that show them.

[@Rob-Yule]

Thank heavens you didn’t become a lawyer! 😂

[@MartinSparks-ef9gr]

Hi Will . Great video. My thoughts are it could be night black , used on u.s night fighters . Also , having lived in England for 51 years , our sky's are never that dark blue . Looking at the pilots , they seem to be dark , even though sat in full sun light . I think you should try lightening the image a lot more , until the clouds glow , until the ground is lit up , like it is on a sunny day and until the sky is around a pale but bright , light blue .M

[@tonydrake462]

Good one-I like the black! I just finished the LouIV in a very dark green, but the next time RLM66. Black works well! Could you confirm my theory about those FW190D-9s with 'red and white' undersides? My idea is that they kept the 'light grey' RLM76 and just added red. It makes more sense to add red stripes to the existing light grey rather than applying white paint (which wasn’t commonly used by the RLM). Plus, adding red stripes over the grey seems logical since they only cover about 20% in red. Using thick tape over the natural underside color makes sense to me (Occam's Razor). The one blurry WWII color photo I found looks quite washed out, and the 'white' on the underside seems to match the 'white' on the fuselage side. According to modern references, this color was RLM76. Are you up for another color mystery?

[@WisdomDesignUK]

Has anyone ever worked out if they ordered 50/50% white and black paint for the invasion, they’d end up with more black left. What shall we do with the spare black?…. However paint excess is potentially a geography created phenomena of war, not consistency nerds, and I suspect everyone may be right some of the time.

[@Ebergerud]

Very good video as always - keep them coming. I have no idea what color those planes were. However I've written a lot of history and have used a lot of interviews of participants. If one of the pilots claimed - without doubt - that his plane was green, I'd never dismiss the claim. You are right about eye witness testimony being unreliable - especially for a fast developing event - like an auto accident, or violent crime - or detail of events that happen long ago. But I believe a WWII fighter pilot would consider this one of the great experiences of his life and I really think he'd remember the color of his plane. Can you remember the color of your cars? I can, going all the way back to my first, a very dark blue 1950 Chrysle.

[@barpfoto]

It's a fair point, but not everybody is the same. And if you're going to allow fighter pilot memory, then shouldn't you also allow the written notes of a guy who was so passionate about it that he became a professional and published expert?

[@Ebergerud]

@@barpfoto I write and teach military history for a living. I've told you what I think is likely - but that doesn't make it certain. I've got a Meng P-51 (a very odd kit) with a blue nose - I think Preddy's unit flew in Ponies painted like that. I'm not going to lose any sleep about it. Again, keep the videos coming.

[@ChristianGurney]

Will, do you have any thoughts or theories as to why those planes were painted in the colors your work suggests?

[@barpfoto]

Honestly… This might sound lame, but my personal favorite theory is because… It looked cool. These were young hotshot pilots, flying hot rods, and virtually unopposed in the sky at that point. I just put myself in that position and think about what I might've done.

[@ChristianGurney]

@@barpfoto as good as explanations as any. I knew a pilot from the 4FG and he had no lack of confidence in himself even 60 years later.

[@RealMoukeycat]

I'm confused why there is any controversy at all since the upper surface of the wing can't be seen. The ventral stripes are still there. You know...I'm only 4 and a half minutes in, so maybe he'll address that. But It's almost time for work. Hopefully I'll remember to come back to this.

[@TrainmanDan]

A colour photo was reproduced during the war in Popular Mechanics that was taken of 'LOU IV' from ten o clock high. I thought you would have used the original of that one to dissect especially since the upper surface of the port wing is visible.

[@barpfoto]

i’d like to see the photo but as far as I know there are no original color photos that show it’s upper surfaces.

[@andyjones6995]

another cool video Will, very interesting. Sad to hear some folk got personally abusive towards you because you dared to have an opinion different to theirs even if yours is based on empirical data. Sadly and excuse the pun, but by doing that they show their true colours :o) Anyway I think a mustang with some RAF night upper surfaces would look awesome. Keep doing the videos dude, they're fab. Oooh and by the way in the UK a 'bell-end' is sort of the same as 'dick head' but not quite, it's a colloquialism for the glans penis!! So the folks who got personally abusive towards you I would describes as 'weapons-grade bell-ends' :o)

[@violetrock9958]

Funny... Any time I look at this picture, I see E2-C being blue and E2-S being green. :D After I watched the video, I am in team black (meaning RAF Night colour).

[@bobmano66]

RAF Blue

[@willthorson4543]

My eyes are playing tricks with me. When you did thst close up and you said it didn't look green? It looked green to me. Lol.

[@barpfoto]

I've been told I'm very persuasive. Apparently not. L O L.

[@21EpicFail]

You know what.... screw all of you. I think it was PINK!!!!!!

[@jcwoodman5285]

Ha!... I was right all along😏