Epictetus, Discourses | On Preconceptions (Proleipseis) | Philosophy Core Concepts

[@theonethatprotectsyoufromt9271]

Thanks a lot, Dr.Sadler! I didn't quite get this one when I read it, but it kinda clicked after your explanation.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Glad it was helpful

[@Brhrhfjfjkfngbfndoo384]

To not fall into perturbation you need correct judgment about good and evil. The correct judgment is that nothing is good or bad external. But how did the stoics solidify this preconception? Is there a way of reason they use? Or thinking? Or judging? Or logic?

[@GregoryBSadler]

Yes, all sorts of ways. Keep on studying

[@Anekantavad]

I wonder what this sort of thing does to the three traditional rules of logic. Rather than "debunking" them, it seems to point out their limitations when applied to perception itself?

[@GregoryBSadler]

+Anekantavad Perhaps -- "perception" understood much more broadly, though, where it's not just sense-data "perception", but rather grasping what's there as things, situations, etc. I'm not sure that having proleipseis, and then applying them to particular cases -- or even the activity (important for Stoics) of getting them systematically fleshed out/understood -- goes against the "three laws" of logic. In fact, they could play a role in that ongoing process.

[@Anekantavad]

+Gregory B. Sadler I was thinking along the lines of conflicts between people as contradictions, but I suppose when you think about it, these are often apparent contradictions as opposed to real ones. Same for identity.

[@MrMarktrumble]

proleipsis ...what term does Plato use for "innate ideas" . His transcendent ideas (edios) as eternal would predate any of each of us who use and discover it...and proleipseis would then be the stoic use of this, without having a metaphysic of transcendent ideas. but I tell you, the more I think about stoicism, the more I am reminded of Kant's Critique of pure reason , ( transcendental aesthetic= stoic test your perceptions... = with the finale of reason turning on and criticising itself, and totality is a ghost of reason, and knowledge of the in itself is not possible!). That's a big assertion. "Preconceptions are common to all people, and one preconception does not contradict another. " Did he identify them all? List them? ( how many... identify the finite number of preconceptions. If its 4 it is not 5. How does he know all people have them? I think there are people who sincerely think we do not all have the same preconceptions. what is "holiness" ...what Otto described it as "aweful" and "fascinating", or the Jews call kabod? Is this what the Greeks meant? The Romans? is prolepsis a rhetorical device used to assume the principle you want to use and prove(which of these come first?), or is it real, and intrinsic to human nature? If we have proleipsis, then each one of us would be born potentially good, and would have to actualize this potentiality.12;14. Philosophy is seeking after truth. Truth is the basis of competent action, and ultimately , of happiness. "has it been fitted into a system" no contradictions within, no contradictions without, and personal integrity. "we have to work in order to make them complete, and we do that by applying them to particular cases" Assuming the principle exists, it is in application of the principle that identifies and clarifies the principle, and its relations to other principles, and when this is done, then it would be complete. hmmm..."orthosyne" setting straight...leads to orthodoxy? We need to know what nature really is.

[@GregoryBSadler]

+Mark Trumble Plato doesn't have a standard term for "innate ideas" -- "ideas", strictly speaking are the Forms. We have knowledge -- and definitely not perfect knowledge -- of the Forms. The Stoic conception of proleipsis is something quite different, and shouldn't be assimilated to Platonic philosophy. If you want to know what proleipseis he did discuss, you'll need to read your way through the Discourses.