EPISODE 106: Detransition Awareness: Beyond Identity & Political Narratives

[@ludaw2975]

You covered this controversial topic with so much compassion and care! and great point about commodifying de-transitioners. It's such terrifying situation to be in - fall into one trap, and then get out, straight into another trap.

[@hannahreay8976]

I never know where to start when I comment! I always think of things I’d like to say as I’m watching and always promise myself I’ll take notes as I go along but then get so caught up in the brilliant conversations and insights that come from your conversations and interviews, that I forget and then I feel like I can’t do it justice! Safe to say that you have had a huge impact with me and how I’ve dealt with my gender questioning teen. I messaged when I first found you saying that you had given me a voice when I felt helpless, which still stands ❤and I’ve watched every episode since which has informed me on so many levels. I loved Sasha’s comment ‘lean in with love’ and that’s what we’ve done, thank u! Affirmative care is a bit like shit parenting, it’s just no good giving your child everything they want! We allowed some compromises but she always knew where we stood and by setting those boundaries, she presumably knew she had a ‘way out’, a way to change her mind…..and that’s exactly what she’s done, she’s desisted. Being given the time and the space to explore herself but still be gently challenged has meant she’s come to the decision by herself, which we’re incredibly proud of. (Her comment was ‘it’s just easier being a girl’ but would like help in ‘feeling more comfortable as a girl’) However, like u say in this episode, there’s still a long way to go. She didn’t medically change anything but to allow her mind to change and to get over the awkwardness of a change ‘back’ (which must be so hard in the teenage world!) I’m biting my tongue and letting her get on with it but am there for the questions! You’ve helped me so much in understanding this and I can’t thank u both enough, I recommend you to everyone who might need you, you’re the voices of reason 😊 I look forward to every episode xH

[@Clem62]

My life is pretty good but I still wake up once in a while in an almost total panic of regret or worry about my future. I can't imagine the level of horror one might feel after taking such a huge step. I think that maybe aging is similar to transition. Watching my body slowly change, morphing into something that isn't what it once was and not quiet recognizing my reflection in the mirror. A feeling of loss. One difference, of course, is that I didn't choose it.

[@smooth_pursuit]

Another difference is we have the comfort of knowing that all humans who don’t die young go through this ageing process with us because it’s an inevitable part of life…

[@freddieoblivion6122]

You probably don't wanna make your life THAT good.... you won't wanna leave when it's time to go - and we all have to eventually.

[@lynnej.9357]

I've been trying to figure out a way to tell the two of you how moved and impressed I am by your wisdom, compassion, brilliance, and insight. Also, the people you interview. Not relevant, but also true: I am delighted that Sasha is Canadian (because I am) and I LOVE Stella's Irish accent.. Anyhow, the world is a better place because of you. Please keep going, but take care of yourselves, because there must be a cost to being SO giving. Also, by the way, happy St. Patrick's Day!

[@wenkeadam362]

KZbin was kind enough today to show me one of your episodes. You are terrific! Thank you so much for your great work. Time to start binge watching your collection. What better way to spend the Easter weekend!

[@widerlenspod]

Welcome aboard!

[@LauraBeckerReal]

I've had the "identity" discussion a lot recently, and here is my take. Identity is neutral. It may be often used as a negative moral judgement to say "oh, de-transition is becoming an identity now" but identity is truly neutral. As you stated, de-transition is an objective action-step process, not just a label choice. In my perspective, identifying as a de-transitioner can be seen along the lines of a victim mentality, or a survivor mentality. Victim mentality is harmful to be stuck in, whereas survivor mentality around de-transition is empowering and is necessary to moving on. I view my process of healing at this point and the work I do around de-transition from a survivor mentality. Everything I do I center more holistically on a healing journey from multiple traumas, as transition was not my most painful life event, and certainly not the root cause of my suffering. Yes, I align myself with the de-transition movement, and a public persona within the world, but it is not myopic; rather, my identity is broader as a "trauma survivor"--the self-concept is around transcending pain into my higher self. De-transition has been part of the process, but certainly not the only thing. I believe that although being a public de-transitioner is challenging and stressful, if one is within this survivor and empowerment mindset, it can be a wonderful opportunity for growth and expansion. I'm sure I talked about that at the De-trans Awareness Day webinar during the "positives to de-transition" segment. It's tough, no lie, because then I get mocked for "grifting" but I lean into that nonsense using humor, and I've become autonomous enough to hold boundaries, control my narrative, curate my feeds, and ultimately have positive energetic power over my life, to the extent that I can.

[@widerlenspod]

Thank you for this beautiful comment, Laura, and for everything you do to bring support and insight to this issue!

[@freddieoblivion6122]

Is it neutral these days? I'm a straight white guy in a blue population center, and I can assure you - others don't see me as neutral.

[@Clem62]

Why couldn't I have found a therapist as good as either of you? I would have saved a lot of time and maybe not have fallen into so many of those holes you mentioned.

[@paulondawula1011]

❤❤❤

[@sherrietaha8377]

I first came across the "Autobiography In Five Short Chapters" in the 1990's while working in the domestic violence and rape survivor arena. Since then I've shared it with so many people and routinely utilized it myself in countless circumstances. It's one of those lifelong tools I am so glad to be aware of. Ironically, I was about to go searching through my files for it again to give to my haircutter this weekend with whom I mentioned the poem in our conversation at my last hair appointment. So glad you use and share this... and thanks for saving me a trip into my files/piles!

[@janmariolle]

I absolutely loved this episode. The way you both fearlessly challenge the narrative while carrying a message of courage, hope, and protection towards those grappling with recovery is moving to witness. I hope you do follow through with an episode on love in the context of therapy. Love takes different forms, and the honest engagement of pushing back against a client’s blind spot opens you up to possible hostility. The therapist must be able to hold personal feelings so the client can freely work through their process toward insight. Although this may be a skill, it can also be love. ❤

[@ryk6207]

Very interesting, the idea that it takes courage to regret. When I started my detransition, the regret was very strong and I resisted “thinking positively” because it seemed so important to face the truth at that point. But then I went too far that way, overfocusing on all the negatives. It’s been several years now and I think that I should be better, but in a lot of ways I’m not, which I suspect is due to lack of connection and of course my own stubbornness. At least I’m calmer now even if I’ve sort of given up on life. Anyhow, you all at Genspect are doing such good work. I wish there were resources like this when I was trans. It would have been really good to see some alternative perspectives.

[@lindajohnson9282]

Enough of the labels, already… that includes everything in the current DSM. People, admittedly, love labels; it helps them put things into nice little boxes rather than the Venn diagrams that more realistically portray life. But this putting people in smaller and smaller classifications of people serves only to create competition for who’s the most oppressed/needy/deserving. In the words of Joe Jackson, “And if there’s war between the sexes then there’ll be no people left.”

[@reluctantphoenix]

This is great episode and helpful for people who are dealing with a variety of mental health struggles. Really effective therapy rarely feels good, at least at the start. Modern society is so averse to emotion that we often over-medicate ourselves and our children to avoid complicated feelings. It's no wonder that many people have the mistaken impression that psychotherapy should calm everything down and feel soporific in order to be effective. Physical therapy doesn't work that way - why would psychotherapy? When I started actively dealing with my childhood trauma, a wise therapist friend told me that it was perfectly normal to feel like I was losing my mind for awhile - confronting horrific memories without dissociating can be crazy-making, as you realize what seemed normal as a child was actually anything but. I still struggle with it, but at least I have the benefits of age and life experience to know these feelings are temporary and will pass. Also, I have developed a number of strategies over the years. I worry about younger people today - they came of age in a world that is at once over-santized and overprotective in some crucial areas, taking away their agency, while without any guardrails or real guidance in places where such things are needed when one has little life experience.

[@trippinggauntlet4520]

It's not only on the gender front that faith has been lost in the medical professionals. After decades of being dismissed and belittled, I can't imagine I'm the only woman, that has given up trying to get help. Any excuse will be used to blame pelvic pain on the sufferer, exaggeration, attention seeking or a insinuation of mental health issues rather than doing something or shock horror resolving the problem.

[@libertysprings2244]

I think many peopl who deteansitioned talk a lot to try and raise awareness to help other people not make the same mistakes. Focusing on helping others is always a good thing in my opinion. It's hard though because people don't want to hear they might be making a mistake and probably won't listen. The surgeons and therapists are the ones to focus on because they are giving out the drugs to kids and harming them. The kids can't get hormones at the local drug store. It seems the therapists and surgeons are having an experience akin to a drug dealer, being constantly affirmed daily that they are desperately needed and saving lives (patients telling them that). Short term thinking is a common human weakness.

[@karatyson8234]

It's easy to dismiss the 60s kids going off to "find" themselves, but perhaps there is something to it. It might be good for all of us to be an anchorite for a time. Even if we don't go to the desert.

[@SourPatches2077]

Feeling betrayed by the therapist feels like child abuse. I’ve experienced both.

[@freedomthrufaith]

Can the beyond trans therapy or support group be accessed in the United States?

[@widerlenspod]

Yes!

[@lukeoreillykane3172]

Wow. I'm the complete opposite. I want to keep meeting strangers. Because they don't know the trans person I became. So it's easier to not explain I'm not who I was.

[@freddieoblivion6122]

I'm a recovering addict - I know exactly what you mean.

[@SourPatches2077]

Perhaps we as humans can not escape identities. Im only half way through btw. But this is making me think alot.

[@bee-eu6cg]

Labels and identities? People need them.

[@freddieoblivion6122]

Aren't the vast majority of therapists women?? That's a problem to say the least.

[@holypicklesmofo]

I work in this field, and disagree with most of what was said but appreciate the effort in discussing this. The important thing to remind people of is that the majority of people seeking this care are better off having received the care. Then, there are people who shift their identities and/or associated gender needs. Most of those people don’t end up receiving the care to begin with. Then from those who receive the care, most don’t regret the effects of the medical transition, but are further understanding their identities or don’t wish to continue to progress medically because they are satisfied where they are. Then, there are those who experience a level of regret, but acknowledge that they needed to experience the medical transition to know it was not best for them. The current research and the current clinical world is NOT seeing a large number of people present with a deep regret about their pursuance of a medical transition. We certainly need more research, both broad population and clinic based, but this really is over-sensationalized because it seems so scandalous.

[@CosmicClaire99]

I transitioned in the mid eighties after attempting transition at the age of 19 nearly a decade earlier but not being able to cope so detransed through guilt. I had always wanted to and was glad to achieve it in my early thirties. It was a different world then, but I still can't understand why people transition these days and then detrans, not because of feelings of guilt, but realising that it wasn't right. It baffles me how people could get that far. I'm glad that they do detrans if it is so wrong for them, but how do people manage to get that far down the road? It's all very well to blame the therapists, and they certainly play their part, but the individual has to take a part of the responsibility for their own decisions, surely?

[@robertmarshall2502]

When you say the majority are better off receiving this care, how exactly? I assume when using the word care you're referring to medical intervention (puberty blockers, hormones, surgery) or have I misunderstood that. I think given the exponential explosion in numbers and earlier interventions we're likely to see more detransitioners in the future. The stats on detrans are all from a different era with a more rigorous approach. We've seen in the Tavistock and from Jamie Reed that there are clinics where puberty blockers and hormones are prescribed in a conveyor belt system in places. In others there's been a shocking speed to allow masectomies at a young age. I think for some of those ppl it must be near impossible to detrans. For example, if you were deprived of male puberty how can you ever turn back and say you're a man.

[@baconsarny-geddon8298]

"The clinical world is NOT seeing detransitioners..." Why WOULD you see them? Do you imagine heroin dealers see huge numbers of ex-junkies? So if the dealers don't see them, but DO see plenty of active users, that must mean that NOBODY stops shooting up, and/or regrets addiction, right? You're in an industry where denial that detransitioners even EXIST (see above) is common, full of activists who are openly hostile and abusive to detransitioners, accusing them of grifting, faking it, being "transphobic bigots", you name it. Can you think of anyplace a detransitioner would be LESS LIKELY to want to interact with?!?

[@alittlesewing]

I think I follow what you are saying, which is that many people will proceed through the steps of transitioning and some will decide along the way that they have had some valuable personal growth and they will pivot as necessary to continue on the path that is right for them. They would not see their actions as mistakes to reverse. They would simply adjust choices going forward. That might look like stopping the hormones or stopping the pronoun requests.

[@holypicklesmofo]

@@alittlesewing definitely. And for some, changing that course will be devastating. But, from what I’ve seen, for most it is quite simple. We are all growing to understand ourselves more every day.