EPISODE 41 - Trans: A Conversation with Helen Joyce

Quick Notes:
The New York Times describes Helen Joyce’s book, Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality, as “an intelligent, thorough rejoinder to an idea that has swept across much of the liberal world seemingly overnight”. Joyce reminds us that her book is not about trans people, but rather, it is about the idea “that people should count as men or women according to how they feel and what they declare, instead of their biology”. Helen explains the ways it’s more acceptable for men to “give up some privilege” and strategies women in other cultures have used to opt out of unfavourable circumstances. Perhaps denying sex leads to a perfectly clear demonstration of just how different men and women can be. We also reflect on the differences between American’s tendency to double-down on bad policy and the hopefulness Helen feels with the unfolding UK reckoning with gender self-id. In this episode we discuss the many ramifications of “you are exactly who you say you are.”
Links:
Helen Joyce’s Website:
thehelenjoyce.com/
Helen on Twitter: / hjoycegender
Book Review by Jesse Singal
www.nytimes.com/2021/09/07/bo... -
Helen’s interview with Andrew Doyle:
• Free Speech Nation wit...
Stella’s Book Review in The Evening Standard:
www.standard.co.uk/culture/bo...
Becoming Julia (Gender Transition Documentary): • Gender Transition: Bec...
The End of the World is Flat by Simon Edge:
www.eye-books.com/books/the-e...
Survivorship Bias:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivo...
Small Gods by Terry Pratchett:
www.terrypratchettbooks.com/b...
--
This podcast is partially sponsored by ReIME, Rethink Identity Medicine Ethics:
Rethinkime.org
Learn more about our show: Linktr.ee/WiderLensPod

[@janmariolle]

“A lot of us feel unconfident in our own judgements….and don’t want to stand out against our own tribe.” This idea really described my experience as I began to notice with growing alarm, this new ideology which I experienced as homophobic and regressive was being supported by institutions that once championed Gay/Lesbian rights. As I began to take a closer look into the issue of “trans kids” all my alarm bells went off as well as the emergency sirens. I talked to everyone I knew about this issue and was extremely disappointed with the general response from those within my “tribe.” It’s tough to be left twisting in the wind when trusted resources are captured by this belief system. What happened to reality? What happened to safeguarding children? I’m left with the lonely feeling that my tribe is enchanted and my voice is too small or insignificant to be heard.

[@manitobafisherman]

You’re not alone at all

[@janmariolle]

@@manitobafisherman ❤️

[@baroquefiddle4790]

💚💚💚 you are not alone with this, hugs from Ireland!!

[@janmariolle]

@@baroquefiddle4790 ❤️

[@L_Martin]

Also, going from feeling like one of a family, to raising concerns in even the most mild language and instantaneously being branded a bigot! It’s not like you are gently shown the door, you are roughly shoved out if you even try to start a discussion to just sort through a lot of very complex ideas.

[@1000sister]

I am going to the National Day of Protest in Canada today Sept 18 /21 to say No to male prisoners transferring into women’s prisons. 1-3 pm local time in any of the five federal female institutions . Thank you for looking into this Helen - I am over myself with this.🇨🇦 waiting patiently for my copy that Amazon says I will not get till October 😤

[@livi6440]

I never heard of this. Was it on the news?

[@1000sister]

@@livi6440 the mainstream 🇨🇦 news outlets will not send reporters to this - not sure why ?

[@livi6440]

@@1000sister OMG you’re kidding? That’s another protest that ought to be staged! Contact CTV directly to ask why. CBC is too...left?

[@aca2283]

Darn! I missed that! I would DEFINITELY have participated in protesting against males being allowed access to female prisons, (shelters, hospital wards, gynaecologists, womens washrooms etc). As Helen so eloquently says, “Trans ideology is a religion, by which it is a belief based on feeling inspite of its total lack or disregard of scientific and objective facts.”

[@paulmead5832]

I really support you so much. What you are protesting is an assault on reality. We men have to become angry about this and support our sisters, all females. I'm 70yo, I can tell you I am freakin doing a rage dance. Paul New Zealand

[@keyboarddancers7751]

Helen Joyce is an *EXCELLENT* speaker. Several fascinating facts came to light for me during the conversation but the stand out one was the GRA here in Britain which does not allow for trans-primogeniture based inheritance. Almost like an obscure pub quiz question!

[@SuperLchilds]

The male who trans' he is not giving up male privilege he is gaining access to women only spaces!

[@Call-Me-Sam]

This morning I contacted the GRC in the uk. I asked what the process is for me to change my gender recognition cert back to male. I have to medically detransition , bank accounts, passport, driving license and then be psyche evaluated.... Who is delusional ? me wanting to acknowledge reality yet remain as I feel comfortable or the system that wants to deny reality. I'm content with transition but no longer want to Officially deny the reality that I am male and was born male and will die male. The dissonance between fiction and reality is damaging to my relationship with self and living truthfully. What a ridiculous mess.

[@janmariolle]

Maya, I think Helen said it so well; to paraphrase, once laws are made, it’s very difficult to repeal them. Here in the US, women’s sex based rights are quickly eroding. Activists have pushed hard to embrace self ID. I think we are in real trouble. I wish you well and I wish you peace. Your channel has been a great place to explore this issue in an open and safe environment. I’m sorry the future may be difficult for us all.

[@Call-Me-Sam]

@@janmariolle Hi Jan, over the next year or so I think the whole narrative is going to fall apart. I notice a very powerful change occurring. Those who choose truth, choose reality and thus, stability. Those who choose untruth, choose delusion. Those who make this choice will feel great pain as their delusion crumbles. There is only one reality, one truth. Over the last few days I've been facing my own delusions. It is painful, but also liberating. My channel will be back up soon. just having some time to consider what to do next.

[@apab9700]

Wow Maya. We know a lot of these things because of your voice. Thank you for engaging and sharing, even though I know it’s come at a cost. Wishing you all the best.

[@apab9700]

I wonder if you said you were gender fluid if you could Keep the feminine form but change the documents.

[@Call-Me-Sam]

What I do worry about is how the young people who have internalised this idea will deal with the conflict it can bring. No matter if there is a mass realisation around the trans idea, there will still be a lot of people affected. Hopefully we can find a way forward.

[@irisElee]

Of course sex isn't "assigned "at birth. The Sex Assignment Wizard: "Nurse, pass the sorting hat!" It's observed and recorded - like height and weight.

[@baroquefiddle4790]

Absolutely, anyone saying sex is assigned by whomever may as well say where do babies come from? Oh! The stork delivers the baby to the parents. Total madness

[@baconsarny-geddon8298]

I always thought "transgenderism" is where the Stork makes some mix-up, and puts a little girls soul into a little boys body. But I AM open to this intriguing "sorting hat" explanation...

[@uncleskipsprairiejustice9367]

re: self ID - "“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.’ ’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’’ The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master - that’s all.”

[@ribbonsofnight]

Was Lewis Carroll speaking about a specific word of the day. Was it equivalent to today's "women" or today's "literally".

[@frusia123]

How come I haven't come across Stella's podcast earlier! Well I'm glad I'm here now, thank you for this fantastic conversation 🙂

[@widerlenspod]

Glad you enjoyed it! We hope you'll stick around for more!

[@lindontilson471]

One of the best discussions on the subject. Helen really breaks down the facts and redelivers them in layman's terms

[@beemacs7282]

OMG I re read 1984 right after reading Helen's book and she is 100% right this ideology really takes us into Orwellian territory. I lived this book and am sponsoring copies to be sent to my political rep not sure if she will read it as Sinn Fein already seem captured by this ideology for all the wrong reasons. It seems Ireland has been hyjacked by a new religion. Thank you for this podcast 👍👍👍

[@baroquefiddle4790]

So true, I am Irish too and am horrified and scared by all this madness 🤯

[@radicalmoderate2730]

You just read 1984? I think thats the problem most people haven't read it.

[@paulondawula1011]

I haven't even listened yet. Already preliked. You guys? Helen Joyce? Automatic corker!!!

[@madincraft4418]

What will save America is the love of $$$. When women back away from spas and gyms and pull their children out of schools and create AFAB groups the businesses will start to lose market shares and change their policies.

[@lovelover4408]

You three are giving hope to the rest of us ❤ thank you for your work

[@Andy.A..]

I’ve really become concerned with this transgender movement over the last 2 years especially when I found out a close family friends 14 year old daughter had changed her name and was identifying as a boy now after never showing any signs of gender dysphoria and only after several of her friends came out as non binary. Her parents have now started affirming this with her and correct us if we use her “dead name” and I’m just so worried at the direction this is going in with these young girls and the lifelong consequences they face if they then take the next step to puberty blockers and cross sex hormones. I’ve been reading and listening to as many podcasts and debates as I can on the subject to try and educate myself as much as possible on the science and psychology of it all and I just have to say I’m really glad there are people like you guys and Helen out there that despite the backlash and hate I’m sure you’ve all received still continue to educate people on what’s really going on so thank you for that!

[@OsloTime]

Stella, Sasha and Helen, thank you for this very important and informative conversation! I just ordered Helen's book and am going to be reading it!

[@lauramiller1464]

I always learn something new every time I listen to Helen Joyce. I wish the U.S. had a similar thinker.

[@mercurious5053]

Brilliant. I especially appreciate your compassion and level headed analythic approach. There's so much suffering involved and I fear this is only the beginning. How can we as individuals and as a society help all the people who leaves this dogma after being medicalised and had different kinds of surgery?

[@cestmoi4532]

Another great conversation. I echo Stella- I love to have references. But a next steps reading list is a good second. Thank you for your work all.

[@Leepal1969]

Very true about men and castration fears. Which is why we would think any man who wants that done must truly believe he really was "born in the wrong body".

[@EM-cg4iy]

Yes, this is what I have seen too. Men really believe that anyone who would cut it off must be not a real man or must be the most vulnerable person on earth. And they believe all of them are going to cut it off.

[@Tina06019]

I am female, and I find the idea of castration of boys and men fundamentally horrible.

[@Leepal1969]

@@Tina06019 I feel the same about FGM, it's horrific.

[@baconsarny-geddon8298]

Yes. I'm a man, and until about 2 years ago, I was supportive of trans ideology. It NEVER MADE SENSE to me, but I supported it regardless, because (1) all my (mostly left wing) social circle supported it, so THEY must have a good reason... right? (Spoiler; They didn't/don't, same as I didn't). (2) Inertia; I've always supported gay/rights, and trans is "LGBT", so... it's all just kinda the same thing, right? And (3) Because even if I couldn't get MY head around the idea of "being the opposite sex, to yourself", that idea of a man cutting off his own junk hits home in a way that's hard to describe- A biologcal man MUST be sincere, to do something so drastic, and incredibly counter-intuitive... But eventually, I realised that the vast majority of mtf's DON'T physically castrate themselves, and the push is always for LESS physical commitment, to be acknowledged as "trans"; Not only does mainstream "gender" ideology say that """an AMAB woman""" has no expectation of removing his junk; there isn't even an expectation of "dysphoria", or being uncomfortable with his male parts. But what on earth does "identifying as the opposite sex" even MEAN, if it's not linked to discomfort with your own sex organs?!? I started to see what a completely self-contradictary, incoherent mess this whole ideology is- Where "gender is totes just a social construct"... But you can ALSO be "born this way" (born, with a "mere social construct" baked into your brain?!?). Where they PRETEND to believe that "sex and gender are totes different things"... Yet somehow, the "mere social construct" of your evidence-free "gender" requires superficially imitating the SEX-based traits, of the opposite SEX?!? And the more I questioned, the more I saw self-obsessed, entitled men surrendering to an all-consuming FETISH, and being empowered by society, to demand that ALL OF US affirm his obviously sexually-motivated fantasies (as well as a growing number of seemingly genuinely confused young people, who often DON'T seem motivated by fetishism, but just seem to be searching for SOMETHING to blame their social unease and depression on) But anyway, yes; That image of self-castration DOES hit home, from a male perspective, in a very visceral way. It IS easy to fall into that mindset of "well they MUST be sincere, if they're willing ro do THAT..." But I've since discovered that people will do ALL KINDS of crazy, extreme stuff, motivated by fetishism; Especially men, where the sexual motive can be incredibly strong (with incredible power to overwhelm good sense, in many different ways...)

[@PSTroise]

This may be the best conversation with Helen Joyce I’ve heard.

[@miroirs-jumeaux]

Did you hear her and Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

[@corinnacohn7389]

Great interview. I really enjoyed the energy between you three and I hope you follow up with her again soon.

[@AllPeopleUnite]

It's interesting that she mentioned of hijra because I've notices that in the past few years activists in that community have really started adopting the word and framework of trans and echoing lgbtq framing as well, on top of which the medical interventions are becoming more common and so I guess that in itself can be a driver of that shift in ideas and identity.

[@beemacs7282]

Brilliant conversation.

[@STEVEBINNION1]

Worst part is telling kids there body is wrong ❤

[@johnpeelfanclub]

Wonderful! Thank you!

[@tonyhoffman3309]

Something missing about the fafafine is that in families with only sons, one of the sons will be assigned a fafafine in order to fulfill the role of help mate to the mother as the role and chores required of women is too much for a mother to perform by herself. Fafafine is NOT SELF IDENTIFIED into by males and are not only gay males. They are assigned by elders.

[@TheNesbittExperience]

I'd love to know why she was forced to change the title of her book. That would be awesome if you could have Dr Joyce back to discuss the title and it's impact. Love the podcast!

[@pseudonamed]

great, thanks

[@AndyJarman]

Helen is quite correct in identifying social accommodations and standards of behaviour/ideas of public decency are not women's "rights" they are social norms reflected in the need for concepts such as decency being a component of lawfulness. The Common Law only recognises where people's expectations trespass on each other. Statutes and written constitution's can be overturned by Common Law which underpins all written declarative state-ments (state edicts).

[@kashesan]

There was a project called "The Disappearing Butch" about ten years ago-many butch lesbians saw this coming (the erasure)

[@shadow.banned]

I liked the blood feud part.

[@mattolgamcsorley9307]

Loved the show. However, it's chiling that two different cross-sex hormone businesses found their way into the ads, at least when I viewed it.

[@widerlenspod]

oh gosh! really?

[@beemacs7282]

*loved

[@hughdavis4633]

Another great conversation. There seems to me to be some key concepts and dimensions that are still largely taken for granted even by those deeply searching into this space. The one that I am thinking of here is the dimension of masculinity/femininity that we readily draw on in referring to the 'effeminate boy' or 'the masculine girl' (and, by extension, those who are not so atypical). It would be helpful in my view to have this dimension clarified, conceptually and scientifically, as a task in itself. Doing that might lead to two further relevant lines of enquiry. First, how far does this dimension have an important, though not exclusive, genetic component; if so, what does that mean for the role of biology and innateness beyond defining to which of the two sexes we belong? Second, I don't think it has been helpful simply to deny that we each have a 'gender identity', even though I fully agree that this is not some sort of 'gendered soul' and still more do I agree that we should not be setting children the task of finding theirs. What instead if we each DO have a sex/gender identity beyond being biologically male or female, determined by where we lie on this masculinity/femininity dimension? How far each of us is aware of this facet of our identity - our felt identity - is another matter, as is the whole question of sexual orientation [which also too readily tends, in my view, to be treated as something known and unproblematic - but that's a story for another day].

[@widerlenspod]

Yes, great points. There IS something to the idea that those w a feeling of severe incongruence might sense they have a GI but others may not. Thanks for your comment

[@hughdavis4633]

That's not really what I had in mind, but thanks for acknowledging my comment.

[@miroirs-jumeaux]

19:32 speaking of nineteen eighty four (as someone who hasn't read it yet) Why isn't the term "telescreen" more memorable to you all?

[@SuperLchilds]

There is sound interference in the video. Is this a hack or was there background noise?

[@ellieorchard2235]

What was the podcast they referred to on the topic of non binary people?

[@widerlenspod]

A previous ep of our podcast.

[@catherinerobilliard7662]

I don’t care how people “identify”; I care about the facts of life. No mammal can change sex, including human beings, however dysphoric. I refuse to use a person’s pronouns that don’t correlate to their biological sex. Why should I be made a liar, so a deluded person can believe they’re speaking the truth?

[@1000sister]

Nice turn!

[@MysticDragonForce]

100% agree. Mammals are the only class of Chordate animals where no known species can change sex due to their environment: fish, amphibians, lizards and even some birds can. This gender malarkey is nothing more than our own self-importance on steroids - we are still animals, as much as any other animal species! Biology dictates what we are, we are not gods.

[@heyborttheeditor1608]

Words are just words, if someone wanted to change their name you would call them that. Pronouns are the same. You don’t have to agree with peoples belief systems but call them what they want to be called 🤷 that’s what I learned

[@MysticDragonForce]

@@heyborttheeditor1608 No... pronouns are based on sex. If you have a dog, you use female/male pronouns to refer to your dog, or any non-human animal for that matter. Man and woman, these are just words, the same as bull and cow, or lion and lioness. Male and female however are not just words.

[@catherinerobilliard7662]

@@heyborttheeditor1608 how can a woman be granted her fundamental right to maternity leave, if all the men say they’re women too and maternity leave should be abolished? How can women possibly defend their sex based rights if everyone can say they’re a woman?

[@miroirs-jumeaux]

16:11 They didn't end up giving up alcohol, maybe follow-through on this new pledge will lack also?

[@miroirs-jumeaux]

For the emby call and response: «Non-binaries are not binary!»

[@mperry3878]

I also think the idolisation of pop stars by vulnerable children and teens plays into this. A vulnerable girl may identify overly with let's say a male soccer star, and a vulnerable boy may identify exaggeratedly with a female singer. They often do this to escape bullying and trauma. Gender non conforming kids are still bullied terribly and have been for a long time.

[@GraemeMarkNI]

Every interview I hear with Helen Joyce she’s really being roasted over the flames 🙄

[@user-rv7ph1jl5y]

Even tho this book was written for the avg educated human, and it's clearly beefy, excellently written and ideas are connected, I think it does a huge disservice to it's audience by not citing references throughout the book. Way too much specificity to not include them. It read as tho I was reading faux journalism or an equivalent of a high school textbook set up by the Texas Gop wives in the 1990s. Disappointing because there is seemingly a lot of important reporting to digest but I fond it hard to look past this need. Perhaps a cliff notes version with references would make this reporting far more credible.

[@puddleglum3306]

Really interesting conversation. Found it frustrating to get through sadly because of the annoying overuse of non-lexical backchannels.

[@Skuffy777]

My favourite ever interview but was it really necessary to have adverts every few minutes all the way through it? You're not that hard up surely?

[@EM-cg4iy]

I didn’t experience any ads!

[@Skuffy777]

@@EM-cg4iy Wow! I literally got them every few minutes!

[@EM-cg4iy]

@@Skuffy777 I wonder how these things are doled out? So random. Often I get them when I listen to Kellie-Jay but on this occasion I didn’t even once.

[@Skuffy777]

@@EM-cg4iy Yes. I assumed that once the uploader ticks the box accepting ads while the video is playing - as opposed to just at the beginning and end - everyone would get the same ad interruptions. Evidently not. Weird.

[@ohman3216]

High-level important interview all round. But I wish Sasha would stop hmm, hmming.

[@KJ-jq9pq]

Marxism.

[@jimmock1155]

Yep. The elite will stir this pot as much as possible, to their own ends.

[@AndyJarman]

Claiming the Irish never colonised anyone is disregarding completely the irreprable damage the Irish have done to the Liverpydlian accent. Without the Irish they could have stayed soynding pretty normal.

[@biancawilloughby9980]

The basis of her critique in tne book is Blanchard Bailey & Lawrence - so it just another pathologising discourse; psychologising, reductionist, very limited, thin in its research, it’s poor understanding of bodies (as anything but brute nature) and lack of related deep feminist scholarship, and of gender as social process. And it lacks any insight from psychoanalytic viewpoints; the latter are actually enabling and depathologising (Gherovici, Elliot, and a lot of what Lemma says - the latter is a massive scholar). Joyce’s terms of debate do little to foster any attempt to empathise, or any serious compassionate engagement - with a group she sees as mad, & perverse; so her terms are disingenuous, and her claims full of contradictions - she pretends to be open and sympathetic but is hostile, sly, provocative in language. A writer with such a bitter taste in her mouth that her slight, feigned generosity of spirit cannot sweeten. It’s a re run of Janice Raymond, generating moral panic, telling us we are sick. Old battles are refought here - gender is not the issue but perversion, contamination by ‘maleness’; compare with the stigmatising medical discourse of Blanchard and a zillion others - Stoller, Person, Lukianowitz, Bancroft - even nastier. A book without an index without bibliography is suspect. Our opponent prefers we did not exist, and yet tells us we are silencing debate, and maybe suggests some sort of reeducation regime. Am so sick of hearing how ‘disordered’ we are. The momentum is driven by fundamentalists one ideology or another; Here we go again.

[@robertmarshall2502]

"Our opponent prefers we didn't exist" is 20th century ideological propaganda 101. You have no justification for that point of view.