Ergonomic Keyboards 2024 - Logitech Wave 2023 vs Logitech K860 vs Microsoft Sculpt

[@tsankotsankov760]

This world needs Logitech MX Keys Mini Ergo... I love my mx keys mini but typing for 8 hours a day on it just makes my wrists tired. Saw the k860 in a shop and tried it , and I was blown away by just how natural it feels. But it is sooo huge my hand will need to travel 10kilometers/day just reaching to the mouse 😢

[@techbrojoe]

Absolutely agree. If they did a mini K860 version like the sculpt it would be amazing!

[@dar7279]

@@techbrojoe I feel like they would eventually release it right?

[@techbrojoe]

@@dar7279probably wishful thinking on both our parts, but who knows!

[@KasperBoLarsen]

It might sound weird, but have you considered switching to use the mouse/trackball with your left hand. After a bad case of "mouse arm" I switched. It took time to get used to it, being right handed, but now I will never switch back.

[@tsankotsankov760]

@@KasperBoLarsen never even thought about that actually, sounds really weird. But I may give it a go.

[@thadds45]

Thanks for doing this review. I was deciding between the two logitech keyboards and this helped a lot!

[@delasantos]

great vid - very useful thank you mate!

[@samueltremblay275]

I would also say that shaking your legs all the time is a sign of stress which would be a cause of pain in your body so ergonomic keyboard is a breeze but taking frequent breaks moving out of the way of your computer would also help a lot.

[@themoderndrift]

I've been using the K860 since Sept '22, and could never see myself going back to a normal keyboard. No wrist pain since using it. Wish there was a mechanical switch version, but otherwise the perfect ergo option.

[@JamesMiddleton-x2p]

I had the Sculpt for a couple of years and switched to the K860. The Sculpt is okay, but poorly executed. The shape and design seem good, but the connection is really poor. It frequently drops, particularly while you are typing, which is incredibly annoying. The separate number pad is also a flaw, I was constantly hitting it with my hand when going for the mouse and leaving it at home or the office when I left. There should have been an option to attach it physically. The battery compartment it also terrible with a watch style flat battery and a plastic screw that breaks on first use. The Logitech is so much better overall and it's the best keyboard I've come across. It's a far better typing experience than the Sculpt or even normal keyboards such as the MX Keys. The only downside to it is the footprint, the thing is huge, which makes it less portable. I couldn't go back from the K860 to a standard keyboard now.

[@Hari-du6pt]

Strange, my sculpt atthe office has regular cylindrical batteries and have not had connectivity issues also I keep the numpad on the left of the keyboard so my keyboard can be put dead center In front of me and no reason to put my mouse further pout to the right than needed - this is and the erhonomics is the whole reason I purchased it; and the only negative to the K860 - but I will get the 860 for my home pc next

[@fredr3101]

Thanks. How big a drawback is it that the k860 is not backlit?

[@baarg8672]

sculpt interfers with other devices especially when plugged in obstruction... put it in same level and away from other radio devices.. no issues! the design and ffactor beats everything in its niche... F the only issue - MS marketing itself.. they can easely dicontinue bestsellers

[@arthurmarques6191]

Thank you for the background section. that was really helpful and thoughtful

[@ChowdhuryMRahman]

I would recommend the Lenovo Ergonomic Go Split Wireless Keyboard to anyone interested in an ergonomic keyboard. Been using that for over a year now and like it more than the MS Sculpt and other split ones that I tried out before settling on this one. Great review.

[@NetGhost03]

The reason, why the microsoft dongle is unique to the keyboard, is encryption. They are using AES encryption to encrypt the keystrokes that are send over 2.4GHz. Thus the encryption keys are stored on the dongle and you can't just swap them.

[@nasirulalam9099]

That's a very detailed review. Good job

[@Tami-Mcclain]

Hi Joe.. Was just about to buy my first ergonomic keyboard and caught your video first.. helped nudge me in the direction I was already going and bought the K680. Thanks for showing these and your opinions.

[@frostadd]

I am currently on MS Sculpt (my 2nd one), previously had 2x MS Natural Keyboard Elite (long discontinued). Good thing about Sculpt is separate numpad, which I just don’t use and don’t even know where I put it 😀My next is likely going to be fully split design.

[@techbrojoe]

I've been loving my Kinesis 360 Advantage. I actually bought a 2nd one recently, just haven't made the video about the 2nd one yet.

[@a5cent]

Tip: Your reviews should mention whether the key characters are just stickers or something more permanent. On MS keyboards the stickers regularly wear off on me after just a few months.

[@ruanth]

Thanks for the video dude, super relatable and a nice entry level explanation for someone who's suffering from carpal

[@bigtee2000]

Great review. I have been a K860 user for years now. My ONLY complaint is that I end up destroying both the keyboard and the Logitech Ergo mouse. The keyboard will last around a year and then the mouse will last less than a year. The keyboard keys will start to stop working and the mouse's right mouse button will stop holding. This means that if I let's say right click and drag, I can right-click and start to drag, but between where I start and my destination, the mouse button releases. It seems to be a mechanical issue from what I have found on Reddit. I should mention that I work from home and I game... So both the mouse and the keyboard are being worked hard daily. I can't imagine using anything else at this point.

[@a5cent]

Are the keys also just labeled with stickers that wear off quickly?

[@krunkey]

They are like painted, they last for years without erosion

[@laquatiousaudry]

The k860 made me type faster the flow of the finger to the keys was great! I’m tall for a girl so some keyboards can be small!! Thank you for this review

[@morerajuan]

k860 has been the best keyboard I have worked with, hope some day logitech makes one model without extra number path, that is not neccessary for everyone

[@AfsinKinsiz]

I had the Microsoft Sculpt years ago. I was a translator who typed all day, and liked the keyboard a lot. However, one day I accidentally broke the usb dongle. Microsoft support told me there was nothing they could do. I had to throw the keyboard away! I still see that as a really bad design choice. Moreover, the dongle was not one of those that became flush when inserted. It jutted out really badly, that's how I accidentally damaged it in the first place.

[@esphilee]

I learn to use track ball mouse with my left hand. So I can free my right hand for the Num pad. It is the perfect configuration for me. Track ball is much better than mouse as it stays in one place. And you get a more acurate mouse click, if you lift your finger away from the ball right before you click. Also, you can take advantage of the momentum of the track ball, give it a spin and slide the pointer across the screen. I figure thumball mouse is even better, but unfortunately, i haven't found a left hand model. Solved wrist, shoulder problem too.

[@IonutBoghean-sb6wx]

I have used the MS Sculpt for more than 5 years now and I really liked it. It is good ergonomically and the separate numerical keyboard is such a great thing, I don't know why other didn't copy the idea. I am tempted to get the Logitech one but what puts me of is its width, I don't like the numerical keyboard there for the reasons mentioned in the video.

[@kalicacao]

Same here. The biggest advantage of MS sculpt is that you can put it right in the center and still have a lot of space for your mouse.

[@gonzalooviedo5435]

Thanks for your video, from Chile

[@carolannbernheim]

Very helpful, unfortunately you answered my most important question: about the dongle! So I know for sure now that I can't buy any of the many that are advertised on ebay etc as being 'without receiver but for spare parts'. I can't imagine what spare parts there might be?!?!? I haven't lost the dongles for any of my six sculpt keyboards and I swear by them BUT the next important question is: when a keyboard becomes unresponsive for no apparent reason, what could the reason be? I've checked all the batteries, cleaned away any corroding on the battery contacts that might have developed while I'm travelling, And, on one of the keyboards [again, all Microsoft sculpt] the entire top row of F keys stopped responding as well as Q, W,E, R,T, A, Z....I live and work alone and nothing has spilled onto any of the keys and I'm temped to try to open up some to the keys and try compressed air, but I can't find a youtube instruction as to how to do this. This key board was initially expensive, yes, but I've used them with every computer I've every worked with and my wrists, elbows and shoulders are all happier for it!

[@techbrojoe]

I'm honestly not sure. It could just be old or a lemon and not work anymore? I don't repair electronics though.

[@kalicacao]

I owned a few sets of MS Sculpt and had similar issues over time. Usually a few years. Those keyboards use a membrane switches which is just 2 layers of plastic foil with metalised paint as a conductive layer. This just wears out over time and it is practically unrepairable. Everything inside is welded together.

[@markwimer]

Non-techie but useful! I wore out my K860 and was wondering whether to just replace it - now I will. Re: habits - yep me too: I was reaching across before this keyboard; and the size of it means I use shortcuts more before reaching for my MX vertical mouse. Keyboard connects via bluetooth, cannot see the older logi receiver like MX vert mouse, but at least Logi options software shows them both and reveals this.

[@RynerGT]

I think another thing I haven't seen any ergo keyboard do is having the number pad on the left (fixed that is). I don't have one myself but it seems like it would help on that mouse extension problem while still having the full numpad. Aswell as the normal advantages of being able to type on the numpad while using the mouse when you do have it on the left. Also kinda dislike how there is no real way to just plug them in with a cable and use them that way, without the dongle or if you run out of batteries/the batteries you already have finally die. But that is kind of nitpicking at that point.

[@lew708]

I have the K860 and freakin love that thing. Have the MX Master 3 mouse with it and my hands love me for getting both.

[@YesThatsMeFolks]

Thanks for sharing! I was going to get the pink wave! Because it’s pink lol and also smaller but I think I may go for the K860. I just wish they had it in white. But ergo is more important to me than anything else. Update: I actually ended up getting the model K350 Logitech. My friend has two of them and she let me borrow one for a week and I truly have to say I loved it! Fits perfectly in my hand as I type. Thanks again for sharing!

[@daanw6270]

Loved the video dude, helped a lot. That said, stop moving your leg 😂😭

[@techbrojoe]

Thanks!I noticed my leg as I was editing. I drank a bit too much caffeine before recording. 🤣

[@JosePita85]

@@techbrojoe yeah was going to say that I'm the same

[@elderlybody]

Fist time going for an ergonomic keyboard. Thanks for the video, it helped a bit: I'll start with some cheap trial version and then would go for ERGO I guess

[@alexr1023]

nice review! I wish the k860 had a smaller size... do you heard about interesting ergo keyboards releases for 2024 ?

[@techbrojoe]

Thank you. Nope! Have you? I wanted to see if anyone actually cared about ergonomic keyboards with this video before jumping into more expensive enthusiast grade keyboards. My channel is so small right now I just review things I purchase and use.

[@alexr1023]

​@@techbrojoe not at the moment. I appreciated the intro you made about the subject and like you said giving a consistent review based on the experience. Probably the audience is not so important but it's never a bad idea to talk about it. As a brand different ergo topic, I try myself to spread the use of screens that don't emit light such as E-ink (phones /tablets/ pc), RLCD (tablet/pc) or transparent LCD (pc) screens.

[@markyn123]

Great video with really important information! Keep it up!

[@PascalGetreuer]

To suggest an alternative: there are "true" split keyboards having two separate modules, one for each hand. Check out the ZSA Moonlander and the Kinesis Advantage360 keyboards. Such keyboards are ergonomically advantageous over unibody designs like those in this video in that the separation and splay of the two sides can be adjusted. Often the tenting angle can be adjusted as well. This goes a long way in achieving neutral wrist position and comfortable typing.

[@techbrojoe]

I reviewed the Kinesis on the channel and love it. I’ve had the Moonlander and really disliked it. Both of these keyboards are much more enthusiast compared to this video’s keyboards, which I wanted it to be approachable ergo keyboards for a broad audience.

[@freepetgroomer]

Nice review. I recently purchased the ERGO M575 track ball mouse & really like it. Will go for the K860 soon. I hope I can use it with my Android phone to build my typing skills using NitroType racing game on my phone. I love this competitive typing game which improves a valuable life skill.

[@kanga7749]

I have been using the Wave Keys and unfortunately, the typing experience has not been very pleasant. The keycaps tend to produce noise even with light touches.

[@techbrojoe]

That’s no good. Good to know for other viewers who read the comments.

[@MrPoottoot]

Thank you for the good info.

[@housecat346]

Is the K860 too wide? I have a pretty small built, and am more accustomed to 80% keyboards. Think the width of the K860 will initiate some mouse shoulder issues. Looking at the Wave but I don't think the curve is pronounced enough. Have heard of Keychron's Q8 but am unsure of how relevant it is for ergonomics.

[@techbrojoe]

If you can get your hands on a Sculpt that may be the move. There are lots of other options though. It really depends on your budget. I made a video review about the Kinesis Advantage 360 and it's by far my favorite keyboard, but it's expensive and has a learning curve. The Wave is WAY cheaper.

[@housecat346]

​@@techbrojoe Thanks man, your videos have been a great help! Saw your other video where you were asking for suggestions for a better mx vertical (but for a more pain free experience) I might recommend the Evoluent VMD Large - been using for 2 months and it's erased all my pain. (I did come from a non vertical, mx master2s before this tho) Only thing I miss is horizontal scroll.

[@techbrojoe]

@@housecat346 It looks interesting. I'll check it out. Thanks for the suggestion!

[@Jiyuu06]

I wish they had the k860 in white :') is the only reason I'm thinking on getting the wave keys, since my entire set up is white. I'm just getting into ergonomics, I already have the Logitech ergo mouse so I started to look into keyboards, I work as an online teacher so I'm 6-7 hours on my computer daily. I wouldn't say I do heavy typing except for evaluation days and I have really small hands (I'm 5'2 lol), so would the wave keys work for me? Or is it a best choice to go for the k860 overall?

[@techbrojoe]

I'd go with the K860 if you want ergonomics and budget isn't a factor. Wave is more like a standard keyboard with a bit of ergonomics mixed in. The white Wave does look pretty cool! It's tough to say though since my hands are bigger and I'm taller. I also have sensitive wrists and fingers since I'm probably on the computer 8+ hours a day so I value ergonomics over aesthetics.

[@laquatiousaudry]

Yes me too .. I got a keyboard cover to make the keys white from eBay that’s my compromise for the white option

[@shuramixu]

What's up friend, in my country they don't sell ergo keyboards with mechanical buttons, what could I do there they only sell Logitech Ergo, they don't sell split mechanical keyboards either, I usually always play but regarding ergonomics it's what interests me the most.

[@cn8112]

I've been using the Sculpt keyboard for nearly eight years and love it. I was bummed when Microsoft discontinued them last year, but glad to hear you say Incase is bringing them back. I somehow missed that in the tech news. I'm in the market for new ergonomic keyboard and planned on getting the K860 since that seems to be the next closest thing. However, after doing more research on the Incase deal, I found an article by The Verge that says they'll also be releasing an entirely new ergonomic keyboard that Microsoft had under development. That sounds exciting, but not sure if I can be patient enough to see what it is, lol. I do like how the K860 can be paired using Bluetooth and has keys labeled for the Mac too (although the Sculpt also works just fine with the Mac as well). Decisions, decisions...

[@techbrojoe]

Oh really? Well hopefully it’s an improvement if a new model drops!

[@cacole]

I'm looking at the K860 for work, but mouse shoulder is a big problem for me. Have you checked out any of the Perixx ergonomic keyboards that also have detached number pads?

[@laquatiousaudry]

I had the same issue .. I switched to the Logitech ergo muse with track ball changed my life I’m only moving my thumb

[@techbrojoe]

I have not. The one I use is the Kinesis Advantage 360 and the Sculpt. Some of the Perixx boards look similar to competitors though.

[@NinaSusanneOfenloch]

Thanks for this. I have the K860 and was considering the Wave for the office... but it seems that it would be a downgrade and that's not what I want. Tbh, I think the split makes it much easier to type (if you're using all your fingers, not sure what the correct english term for that is), errors are literally out of reach ;-)

[@techbrojoe]

Yeah I can't recommend the Wave unless you're on a very tight budget.

[@peterh.2488]

MS Sculpt should be the best, but the build quality is questionable. I hope Logi can launch a similar product.

[@kalicacao]

I've been using Sculpt for maybe 8 years and I already owned a couple of those. First one I got was really a premium quality. Later models seemed much cheaper and poorly made.

[@ElementaryWatson-123]

I bought two Microsoft 4000 about 5 years ago when they were still available. Never found anything better. One of them is pretty worn out now, hard to see the keys, typing almost totally by memory. Can't fathom what I'm going to do after these keyboards are gone. I have a couple of Logitech keyboards and a few others that I bought through the years but I'm not happy with them.

[@debuggingJedi]

i bought microsoft sculp and 1 year later usb dongle stop working than i sent it for repeair to microsoft.. what a quality!..

[@b25671]

Does anyone know when incase will release their version of the sculpt? I've been waiting for months now...

[@techbrojoe]

No idea. I’m surprised they still haven’t come out with them since it’s been awhile since I made this video.

[@Psdyer922]

finally a review about ergonomic keyboards that have a negative tilt option and, are spoken in everyday speech instead of spewing a bunch of tech jargon to appear "knowledgable."

[@techbrojoe]

Thank you! When I made this video my goal was to make it simple and approachable to someone new to keyboard ergonomics.

[@esparda07]

The best ergonomic suggestion is to take breaks.

[@techbrojoe]

It’s one piece of the puzzle yes, but even with breaks if you are typing or sitting in bad positions for your body breaks don’t fully prevent or fix pain.

[@Hari-du6pt]

Have you tried different ergonomic mice? Can you make a video on the vertical one you have and any others you have tried? Ive been using the sculpt combo for over an year at work and need a new keyboard and mouse for home but the sculpt is out of stock and does not have multi device connectivity which is a major L for home use for me - you are like THE guy I need to hear an opinion from on ergonomic mice. I tried a cheap vertical years ago but it was way too vertical it puts a different strain and forced me to lift thumb which was really disappointing. PS the scupt mouse is WEIRD but it absolutely helps with painful wrists and it's perfectly fine after a few days for use.

[@techbrojoe]

That’s a good idea for a short and sweet video. The mouse I use is the Logitech MX Vertical. I actually have 2 of them. One for work and one for personal use. I’ve tried the vertical Anker one a long time ago and disliked it. I couldn’t even tell you the model. I’ve also tried trackpads for about a month, but it caused my wrist to be pronated the same as a traditional mouse, so it didn’t really help.

[@lordofbathurst]

Do you have wrist tesonovytis or wrist popping when you rotate your wrists?

[@techbrojoe]

Yup! I’ve had it for as long as I can remember in both wrists.

[@lordofbathurst]

@@techbrojoe Does the pain go away when you pop them?

[@techbrojoe]

@@lordofbathurst nope!

[@EbonySeraphim]

If you’re talking ergo keyboards, you should truly examine split ergo designs. This feels like a super “lite” version of ergo if you’re not quite sure you’ll need it but want to feel better.

[@techbrojoe]

Perhaps in the future! I tried a Moonlander and it really turned me off of split keyboards. Most of the more ergonomic keyboards are more expensive too. This video was meant more to be general ergo keyboards people could purchase at most major retailers.

[@philoxoper]

argonomics is all about personalization choose wisely

[@nacigoyengyt]

ergonomic keybaord? why not Neo Ergo?

[@trackvegeta8716]

for office work glove80 is really comfortable

[@techbrojoe]

It looks cool, but it definitely looks like an Ergodox or Moonlander split type keyboard. It's hard for me to relearn how to type on those types of keyboard.

[@trackvegeta8716]

If you already know how to type on the ergo k860 properly, it will not be so hard. If your main concern is health, you will not regret it.

[@techbrojoe]

@@trackvegeta8716 if I see it for a good deal maybe I'll pick it up. Jumping into those enthusiast grade ones are pretty intense. I really disliked my time with the Moonlander and sold it after like 3 days of trying to use it.

[@trackvegeta8716]

@@techbrojoe I had the moonlander, I also sold it. Not confortable when you have rsi. Good cheap alternatives are keychron v10 or x-bows lite or keychron k15 pro

[@b25671]

I both have the k860 and the ms sculpt. The ms sculpt to me is way better in almost every aspect regarding ergonomics. The curve is better. The size is better. The typing is better (k860 is to hard to press). The downsides of the ms sculpt are usb dongle 1 device less flexible in customizing function keys But in terms of size and ergonoimcs ... it's really the best for me.

[@techbrojoe]

I like them both, but the MS Sculpt is tricky to get right now. K860 firmness I like more than the softness of MS Sculpt, but I used to use MX Browns or custom switches that were similar when I used mechanical keyboards, so it's probably from that preference.

[@joemachynia4981]

Do you work for JCI?

[@saintpsu]

Typing this comment with Microsoft Sculpt, and I used to own Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard 4000, so let me tell you: these keyboards suck. . Background: I'm a translator. I type a lot, like many books a year a lot. One common fault I found with these 2 "ERGONOMIC" keyboards is that the keys are too large, too wide apart. And you have to move your wrist and your finger joints A LOT to reach them. After about an hour with this thing, I start to get wrist/joint pain. Oh, forgot to mention the wierd angle of your wrist. Da hell? Do I have to prop some pillows under my bum so my hands can properly align with the keyboard's inclination? . The best course of action is just to get yourself a good wrist rest and take a break regularly then any regular-shaped keyboard will not give you RSI. I'm currently using a Microsoft wireless combo keyboard. The keystroke gives a good feeling. The thing is durable as hell too! I tried using expensive mechanical keyboards and those damn things broke after a while: some keys stopped functioning, some keys doubled the stroke, etc. . The BEST keyboard for typing, from my experience, is the a-shaped keyboard. The buttons are of normal size. The keys aren't splited. So you don't have to move your wrist and joint too much. Combine that with a good wrist rest and you're good to go. Damn shame I can't get the one I want (A4Tech A-Shape Natural Keyboard) deliver to my country. . PS, coming here looking for a review on Logitech Wave, might get myself one.

[@czdot]

I've had MS Scupt for years. I like it a lot but that thing needs an update. The F-row needs be made out of normal keys like the rest of the keyboard. Also, they need to ditch the function switch. It needs to be a key. The mouse that came in the package with it is trash.

[@SocialDrones]

I miss my sculpt sad Microsoft discontinued it 😢

[@magik001]

Sculpt is garbage. I had to purchase 3. Every time something broke. 1st one, dongle went bad. 2nd one, mouse went bad (you can only buy it as a set), 3rd one mouse windows button went bad via the PCB, so I had to frankenstein the two working mice.

[@techbrojoe]

Well that sucks. I haven't had any problems with either of mine yet.

[@notnotjake]

the Logitech keyboard is amazing but the numpad is a dealbreaker. puts the mouse too far away

[@gvrmtl]

Omg stop shaking that leg or refrigerator the video so I don't have to endure that

[@neech2199]

please sit quiet man. Watching the constant nervous tapping makes me want to jump out my skin. Great review though!