Ergonomics Keyboards are complicated... - ErgoLab #2

[@raestrada95]

The Glove80 is the best keyboard I've encountered for several reasons, but two stand out the most: 1-The thumb cluster feels incredibly natural. 2-Once you use a concave keyboard, there's no going back. In my opinion, the only aspect where the Glove80 falls short is its tenting system.

[@DygmaLab]

We have ordered one to try it out. We are confident our thunbcluster design is superior, and hesitant about the added height (as explained in the video) but we are quite curious 😅

[@raestrada95]

@@DygmaLab I have the Moonlander, Kinesis Advantage 360, and I bought the Defy during the Kickstarter campaign because I find it beautiful, and it is, but I couldn't really get used to the thumb cluster. Also, with the lateral legs, the profile of the keyboard becomes very high ( Something that is compensated in the Advantage360 with the concave shape in my opinion, and the Glove80, well, it doesn't have that problem and, in addition, it is concave. ), and I really hate the material of the Keycaps (I know I could buy others, but I decided to keep the Glove80, so it doesn't make sense.). I still have the Defy because I think it is the most visually beautiful keyboard, and I have it on a stand. I decided to buy the Glove80, and I basically loved it from the first time I used it. I'm sure you will love it after trying it.

[@ChristopheTroestler]

@@DygmaLab Looking forward to your review of it!

[@jacobkurien4023]

Glove 80 is the best

[@tamfang]

I like G80 but the upper thumb keys are hard for me. (I recently ordered a Cyboard Imprint, a Dactyl-style board.)

[@ivanheffner2587]

Just a quick comment: The staggered layout inherited from typewriters is not “so they wouldn’t jam”. That’s (supposedly) one of the reasons QWERTY was developed (also, supposedly so the salesperson could type TYPEWRITER using just the top row). The staggered layout was because there are physical linkages that take up space and the staggering provided the space necessary for those linkages. I’ve used an Advantage keyboard for the better part of two decades and love them. My three gripes about them are that when I bought the two Advantage keyboards I own the only option for switches were brown tactile (MX Cherry on the older one; Gateron on the newer one); the older Advantage wasn’t a fully split keyboard (remedied by the Advantage 360); and the Advantage 360 doesn’t have an aggressive enough tilting system (remedied by a $20 set of laptop kickstands). I’d rather have box navy clicky switches, but I don’t think they existed when I bought the Advantage Pro and the Advantage 360 Pro wasn’t customizable when I pre-ordered it. I have a standing desk and adjustable keyboard tray so I can put everything at the perfect height and sit or stand comfortably with no compromises to ergonomics.

[@DygmaLab]

Hi! Maybe we didn't explain it properly, but we were referring to the staggered layout when talking about jamming and the linkages. We have a video about the history of alternative keyboard layouts where we debunk that myth of the origin of qwerty 😀 Oh, and yes, if you adjust your setup accordingly like you did, a keyboard with a keywell can be very comfortable 😊

[@AlphaVo]

Dygma Defy is the ergonomic keyboard I was always looking for, and fulfilled 90%+ of my needs and wants. Being split, and wireless opens up so many better postural positions to use this in. Recommend this product to anyone looking for something worth keeping for the next 10 years

[@DygmaLab]

That's great to hear! We'll keep up the hard work 😊

[@yediydeyah78]

I would LOVE for Dygma to release the Defy 2 with the Function Keys! My Defy is sitting in the travel case that it came in (I have only used it for an hour since receiving it in January...) and will probably remain there due to the lack of the Function keys. YES, YES, YES, there are layers, but honestly, there's nothing more functional than pressing a key vs. remembering what layer a key (or keys) are on 😊

[@DygmaLab]

There are workarounds to that. Have you thought about using superkeys to make the number row a Function row when you hold each key?

[@yediydeyah78]

@@DygmaLab Bazecor is too confusing for me to use intuitively and understand the functionality. I have watched the videos leading up to the release of the Defy so I wasn't totally new to it, but yet and still, not very intuitve to me. I have thought about trying to give the Defy a go again (I did manage to change my layout to something that I think would be easy for me...), but after discovering the Glove80 and the Matias Ergo Pro.... I may decide to invest in a different keyboard altogether 😥 I'm still on the fence though so the Defy will continue to sit in it's case looking nice, pretty, and untouched 😥

[@DygmaLab]

If you have any questions about Bazecor you can write us an email at [e-mail] and we'll be more than happy to make a call with you to help you 😊

[@yediydeyah78]

@@DygmaLab I will take you up on that offer ASAP!! 😁 😁 🤪. Thank you!

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

The Defy looks wonderful. Having RSI at this point so looking to go all the way to the glove80 for the concave well, but if I were going off of looks as well I would be seriously considering the Defy. The 80 definitely has extraneous keys, but you can easily program those extra rows out.

[@DygmaLab]

That's the beauty of having different options to choose from, everybody can find the one that suits them best 😊

[@daniellabassi2405]

I love my Defy but I always wonder about the keywell on the Glove80. Hope to see a comparison vid.

[@barsona]

I still can't get used to not having a numpad or arrow button... But in all honesty, the typing experience I had on the v1 Raise for 4 years (wait, really....) has been great. I think it helped me type, and overall it feels better typing reports on this, rather than the standard. Still trying to think if I want to change my raise to a defy...

[@DygmaLab]

To be fair, the number pad layer on a staggered keyboard is not as easy to master as in a columnar.

[@Tellea]

I went through a few splits but hit my endgame this montn! Mistel MD770 > Dygma Raise > Filco Xacro M10SP The filco just works so well for me with the 10 macro keys down the middle, i had no break in time it just worked! I love the dygma and what you guys do but the filco just fit better

[@DygmaLab]

Interesting! Haden't seen that one! We are working on a modurle for the Raise 2 that adds extra keys on one side similar to that keyboard, but removable 😊

[@Tellea]

@@DygmaLab ohhh interesting!! I love filco as a brand they were my first mechanical keyboard so when I saw the split I had to give it a go and the middle row was nice! I will for sure keep an eye on what modules you release though that's very interesting :)

[@FrankPloegman]

This discussion reminds me of a presentation that author Malcolm Gladwell did a long time ago (linked below). It was about a company researching the recipe for the perfect one-size-fits-all spaghetti sauce. They might have found some basic principles, but they finally concluded that you can’t satisfy everyone with one sauce, because tastes differ too much. Some people liked smoother sauces while others like chunks, some people liked a spicier sauce, etc. etc. Therefore it’s better to make multiple different sauces. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jJzLd5trgthkrMU The same is true for keyboards. Some people want hot-swappable while others want a concave keywell, some people want more keys while others want maximum portability, some people want to stay with row staggered while other are prepared to learn column staggered, some people are willing and able to invest more money than others, some people want LEDs everywhere while others couldn’t care less, etc. etc.

[@DygmaLab]

Thanks for sharing! I guess we'll have to make more sauces too 😂

[@benfrainuk]

I sometimes want to have more than one ‘sauce’ in the same day!

[@franksenkel2715]

I started with a Piantor (corne), I found I didn't like the low profile switches, tight spacing, and number of keys. I found it would break my concentration having to constantly switch layers for symbols and numbers. I also found I like the thumb keys and wish it had more. I tried to skip doing several iterations and jumped to an advantage360, based on several reviewers and thinking there was some magic to the keywell....it's a nice keyboard, but there is no magic to the keywell, I actually find it harder/awkward to reach many of the keys, and the smartset key mapping program lacks many of the features of say Vial. I think the Defy has it nailed...an additional row, MX switches, additional thumb keys and a couple of additional macro keys....one thing I found on the advantage360 was a 3D printable bridge to hold the boards at a fixed distance, that works out great. The separate halves of the Piantor were always moving around on the desk....

[@DygmaLab]

Thank you for your words! We are glad you like it 🫶

[@babybloc]

I love that you start off with there not being one “best ergonomic keyboard” Any review that suggests one solution for ergonomics has totally missed the point At 36:53 you start on “Height” and Tenting I think that is perhaps the biggest ergonomic feature that will impact most users Wish that was more towards the front. All the effort people put into alternate layouts and fewer keys may help some, but like you say those can take months to learn and with diminishing measurable returns health-wise But most keyboards don’t split, and very few tent to the recommended 20° or 30° studies show has the most impact over the long term If someone needs some improvements Looking around for options that support tenting like that will narrow a user’s choices a lot I’m glad to see more split boards including mounting brackets so people can add tripods to make keyboards tent to any angle 📐 That’s a solid desktop solution, if not always the most portable

[@DygmaLab]

Thanks! We might have to do a separate video about tenting 😊

[@tamfang]

I wonder why people say “40 percent” rather than, for example, “42 keys”. It's not saving syllables much.

[@DygmaLab]

😂 You are totally right

[@ProphylacticGizzard]

I like the approach you guys take with the thumb cluster, of basically more = better and try to make as many of them reachable as possible. Feels like ZSA realized the thumb layout sucked on the ergodox/moonlander, but rather than improve it they just got rid of most of the keys lol. A low profile portable Dygma board something like a Voyager but with more thumb keys and wireless option could be sweet :)

[@DygmaLab]

We are exploring low profile versions of our keyboards, but it might take a bit of time 😅

[@ProphylacticGizzard]

​@@DygmaLab great to hear, love that you guys are so genuinely interested in this stuff. And sorry us keyboard nerds all have such strong and often opposing opinions 😅

[@rodrigojconceicao]

It seems I didn't make a good decision, though. I've just ordered a columnar, split keyboard with tenting, and I've already managed an awesome (statistically speaking) keyboard layout. P.S.: I've never typed 'correctly' nor had a mechanical keyboard before.

[@DygmaLab]

How has it been adapting to it?

[@rodrigojconceicao]

@@DygmaLabWell, I'm preparing myself with the current standard keyboard layout, but I'll update it when I have more information.

[@rodrigojconceicao]

@@DygmaLab It's been very stressful. I realized that I use several combinations of arrow keys and the Fn key (especially in IntelliJ IDEA for debugging). I need to learn how to configure and design well-thought-out modifiers. In my case, I also switched from a QWERTY layout to a hands-down configuration, and I had to transition from Linux to macOS. With fewer keys, it seems more challenging/unfeasible to achieve good results.

[@deadstyle95]

My collection of clicky switches disagree that there is no rabbit hole for them.😂

[@DygmaLab]

😂😂😂

[@mickocompany]

I thought this conversation was cool.😎 It took me a long time to find a keyboard for myself and I think I had all the keyboards that were on the table as options. But in the end I decided on a completely different keyboard. I use the ADM42, which is a very small, compact keyboard. It has 42 keys and is columnar and it is also slightly curved. It has the shape of a Batman logo.😂

[@DygmaLab]

Thank you! More to come 😊

[@rudivandoornegat2371]

Yes, I like these keyboard podcasts. Instead of Dvorak, etc. as alternative for QWERTY I would first want extra innerkeys (index finger keys between the T and Y staggered columns). The XBows and Defy have that. All keys left of the Q staggered column and right of the P staggered column could move to the index finger keys and thumb keys, for more speed. In the standard layout the left pinky is responsible for 2 staggered columns and the right pinky 3 columns. While the index finger handles only two staggered columns. A 4-split space bar must be possible, so we can put 10 keys in the middle for thumbs and index fingers. The A-key could have a 1.25 u keycap and the Z-key a 2 u keycap. The P-key maybe a 2 u keycap, etc. I would like the ? and / as well as the : and ; on separate single keys (no modifier) and also the + and = could be hotkey singles located between the 5-key and 6-key.

[@DygmaLab]

Interesting approah. Miquel is going the opposite direction with less work for the index thanks to Engram 😅

[@rudivandoornegat2371]

There are four categories of approaches for better ergonomics higher productivity as mentioned during the podcast: 1. hardware (better keycaps, switches, optimized for hand size) 2. remapped layout (dvorak, engram, etc. means must be programmable and also depends on willingness user to spend time to adapt) 3. improved hardware layout (split, extra hot macro keys, tenting). 4. more keys or less keys (without f row, without number row, etc. depends how much user is willing to adapt and memorize) I think for people who don't want to spend much time relearning a layout are better of with move of the QWERTY side / pinky keys to the middle for the index fingers and thumbs. Also because they will be more visible for peeking while the user is relearning. That's why the Dygma Raise is not hard at all to adapt to.

[@DmytroIelkin]

What are those chairs? I want one.

[@DygmaLab]

We got them from amazon 😅 www.amazon.es/SONGMICS-Reposabrazos-Escritorio-Giratorio-Ajustable/dp/B089VMXF3H

[@alejandrozaizar1329]

@DygmaLab Miquel can you share your engram layout with the layers please?

[@DygmaLab]

He was inspired by this web sunaku.github.io/engram-keyboard-layout.html 😉

[@josephfrye7342]

to be fair i got Logicool aka Logitech (which it is Logi for short now) ergonomic keyboard since microsoft made that natural ergonomic keyboard in the 90s before the apple adjustable ones. it's kinda possible that apple is stuck with magic standard layout keyboard with scissor mechanism instead of the butterfree/butterfly ones but apple is still thinking again to make ergonomic ones with latest ones though but logi beat them to it though so all i got is magic mouse and magic pad for mac os.

[@babybloc]

You’ll know the ergonomic keyboard revival has arrived when Apple swoops in and steals everybody’s ideas to release an updated Adjustable Keyboard But their current keyboards are so un-ergonomic in several ways it’ll be a big stretch to fit one into their aesthetic More likely they’ll continue to funnel people towards touch screens and VR headsets with no keyboards 😎 I bet there’s a prototype split / tented programmable RGB Magic Keyboard in there lab somewhere though. That would be fun to see

[@josephfrye7342]

@@babybloc nice :)

[@DygmaLab]

That's a fair starting point for an ergonomic journey 😊

[@Pib31995]

Currently in the market for a split columnar keyboard, as my RSI is acting up again since I started my new job. I wish there was some way I could try out all of these models long-term without having to buy all of them haha. TBH I find the Defy a little on the ugly side (looks a bit like Hulk Hands), but I can't deny it's form factor and functionality. I'm willing to look past the aesthetics if the comfort and ease-of-use are there, but hard to say before I buy it. I'm also eyeing the Voyager because I like low-profile keyboards and I dig it's aesthetics and modularity, however I'm not sure if I'd be able to adapt to it having so few keys. I used the Moonlander at a previous job and I did like it, but I found it's built in tenting mechanism to be a bit on the cumbersome and clunky side. However they do have that new tenting mechanism add-on, which seems a bit more streamlined.

[@Lazlo-os1pu]

I got the glove80 recently for RSI issues. Would highly recommend

[@raestrada95]

@@Lazlo-os1pu how natural it feels to use the glove80 has no comparison

[@DygmaLab]

The Defy's tenting mechanism is quite easy to use as you can see 😅 And we have a 30 day no-questions-asked return policy 😊

[@xTatsuran]

Before I watched: BECAUSE THEY ARE FLIPPIN EXPENSIVE

[@DygmaLab]

It depends on how you frame it. How much are you willing to spend on a chair or a desk. The keyboard is something you use over 8 hours a day, maybe it's worth the investment :-)

[@Chrispycode]

One time I had only one half of my Defy available, so it typed with one hand on the defy and the other on the laptop keyboard and had no issues xD am I a Freak?

[@DygmaLab]

At least one of your hands was comfortable 😂