Errol Morris on "The Unknown Known": The VICE Podcast Show 039

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This week on the VICE podcast Reihan Salam sits down with filmmaker Errol Morris to discuss his latest film The Unknown Known, a portrait of one of the leading architects of the Iraq War, Donald Rumsfeld.
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[@zooyorkk]

They need to interview Reihan about interviewing Errol Morris about interviewing Donald Rumsfeld.

[@The1Helleri]

This interview felt difficult. It seemed like Reihan wasn't able to find the best way to engage him until right at the end. Morris didn't like his quips. Hated his assertions about what he felt his work expressed. It was only Reihan's "I wonder about..." at the end that actually seemed to get Morris to say something with out first questioning the question.

[@DmitriKatsman]

i don't think Reihan could do anything to really engage him because Errol seems like an antisocial and arrogant type with completely unpredictable reactions. I am still puzzled to why Rumsfeld agreed to be in his movie. Seems counter-intuitive.

[@oeckstei]

Dmitri Katsman Easy to surmise antisocial from this interview alone but I think introvert is more accurate as Morris cares more about his work than fame. He is much more lively to Bill Maher and other interviewers.

[@ttrendxyz]

hard to have a real interview with a real journalist when you're being interviewed by rupert murdoch.

[@theoblack9819]

Riehan approached the film with altogether too much respect for Rumsfeld. I think the film is difficult to read without an initial understanding that rumsfeld is a proven liar and that Iraq is a monumental failure. Fog of war has a similar approach in that its not interested in convincing you that veitnam was horrid, it assumes you know that and that is especially important because McNamara understands it too. Rumsfeld on the other hand refuses to acknowledge that something horrible actually happened.

[@ahrustem]

I love how people in these comments are writing off Morris just because of his attitude and tone of voice, and not because of what he is actually saying. Oh you young Americans...

[@cannabisreview]

Reihan Salam is a fucking trooper. One of my personal heroes. Best interviewer ever, for reals. He has a better grasp of syntax and protocol (verbal) than anyone I've ever seen in media. Or anywhere else, for that matter.

[@regularjon9693]

Two incredibly accomplished interviewers, participating in an interview. Really interesting.

[@quidnick]

Vice needs to give Mr. Salam a raise after this one, geez!

[@tyroney2]

I wish I could have watched this right after seeing the documentary. It's rare to hear a director speak so honestly and candidly about heir subject like this.

[@JohnSmith-by2fl]

obviously, Mr. Morris has been around, and has met, and interviewed some very important and interesting people.... But his arrogant, and seemingly inebriated, persona, was really distracting. I give much credit to the interviewer, for hanging in on that one, and not "walking off", as was talked about at the beginning of the meeting...

[@HarryHollertheWolf]

That's ridiculous. The interviewer was the arrogant windbag, adding pretentious commentary. The interviewer is there to ask questions, not assert his or her own thoughts and ideas. Morris was just irritated by the interviewers pretentiousness, and rightfully so. See Morris promoting this movie in other, professionally done, interviews and you will clearly see what I am talking about.

[@6idangle]

He is one of the wannabe mysterious people that can't ever agree with what you are saying just because he is arrogant.

[@pho3nix-]

To this day, Donald Rumsfeld still scares me.

[@Amalgam80]

Reihan continuously tries to be apologetic for Rumsfeld (and paint him in a favorable light) and Errol is always stopping him from doing so...and it's Errol that the comment section isn't liking. Rumsfeld was one of the people that led us into and then fucked up a completely unnecessary war. And then were completely unapologetic for it. So, why try and apologize for people like Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush that are unapologetic? And why insult the person that is stopping the whitewasher from whitewashing?

[@ballenmarie2]

investigate rumsfeld with water boarding hahahaha

[@Topbitcoinexchanges]

this format is so much better for getting into the mind of Errol Morris than the Daily Show. it takes time to understand where hes going with things and get his humor and such.

[@AROMANNNNNN]

this interview is extremely fascinating. will definitely be digging into Morris's work.

[@Brakvash]

I thought this video was good, and different. Sometimes these interviews feel too formal and in this case it was vented and it turned into more of a conversation. Reihan simply steered the discussion and allowed Errol to talk. I'm quite all right with this mode of discussion, a welcome change of pace as I said.

[@grantsettiwick3839]

Is there anyway to turn up his mic sensitivity a little more? I can't hear all the sounds in his stomach.

[@JohnSmith-to5ow]

comment section is like high school. Kind of a window on our culture, right?

[@VintageDonuts]

I love that term "Irony Deficit Disorder". I think I'm going to use that a lot.

[@ironpirites]

A suggestion for the interviewer: Don't finish your subject's sentences for him. You'll never get to the "unknown known" if you do. Rumsfeld is typical of the atherosclerosis of America's "administrative cortex". Morris mentions the DSM and suggests a new inclusion, "irony deficiency syndrome" as exemplified by Donald Rumsfeld's imperviousness to irony. Well, he's on the right track, but for quite some time now American officials have given evidence of a wide variety of dissociative, not to say, completely delusional behaviours. The American public itself appears to be as dissociative and delusional. They keep putting trust in and electing head cases to run the country. I haven't seen the film but I am glad that Morris has at least put the reptile on the dissection table. Believe me, if Morris can't make head nor tail of what he is looking at, there are plenty of people out here in the world of samizdat who can.

[@DogsonlyGOD]

Reihan has to keep the ball moving. If you don't shove Morris along he will spend the next 20 minutes in silence trying to find words that convey his point.

[@SirTopDrawer]

DogsonlyGOD Then let him find the words and edit out the silence

[@cI0udnine]

DogsonlyGOD Totally agree, an interviewer is a director, remember that.

[@5293278363]

"Despite the hurried nature of the visit, I am proud to report that my wife met and exceeded the operational standards set by the U.S. military for readiness in a two-front war," said Rumsfeld in a press conference shortly after the visit. "I am confident that she can still stand up to heavy fire and serve ably, even in a rearguard action."

[@IanBerg]

Who else is watching this on or soon after news broke that Donald Rumsfeld died on June 30, 2021?

[@AndrewKarmy]

I was just reflecting the other day..."Errol Morris would be GREAT on the VICE Podcast" So, Thank-you!!!

[@changoTCL]

This is an incredible movie. Rumsfeld lies the whole time out his TEETH and doesn't bat an eye. He even deceives himself. Incredible.

[@gabrieljohannson6777]

Why blame Rumsfeld? He was very clear in his thought process. Watch the documentary "The Unknown Known" and you'll see a very clear thinking focused man. I thought he was a psychopath as well before watching this. I left watching this doco with more respect for Donald Rumsfeld. I was less than impressed with the USA. The Government (democrat or republican) are there to protect & further the influence of the USA. Damn the consequences. Haters are going to hate Rumsfeld but I'm one less hater after watching that documentary. I continue to reject the need to have gone to war & proud to have protested that war. However hating one man (Donald Rumsfeld) isn't the correct or logical thing to do.

[@perkyporkpie]

What's great about Errol Morris is that what you see is him with no filter-he is eccentric, opinionated, blowsy and truthful.

[@SirTonk]

Did y'all intentionally get Morris drunk before the interview, or did he show up that way?

[@MrRevoltOfficial]

lol. A little from column A, and a little from column B.

[@chris14091975]

i like reihan cause he lets errol talk. he does not interrupt. very professional

[@k4mru7]

lol looks like Errol is just as high as his son Hamilton

[@HarryHollertheWolf]

38:40 Errol Morris has finally had enough of Reihan Salam's pretentious self-important nonsensical analysis of the film, and is clearly irritated. Morris' irritation had been subtle up until this point.

[@DmitriKatsman]

it seems like Morris is irritated by the presence of other people in general :)

[@sadiegirl217]

Drunk people are sometimes easily irritated lol

[@HowdyThere88]

Morris is irritated at Rumsfeld in that moment, not at Salam.

[@agentsmidt3209]

I wrote my comment before reading this. I thought I was hallucinating or being a jaded asswhipe, but I guess I was not the only one who got a weird vibe from this implant.

[@joshdavid247]

fantastic interview, thank you again Vice

[@GatelliteSimp]

outstanding interview

[@hans1187]

Wow I always thought of Eroll Morris as an empathetic, engaged, deeply curious person with a lot of heart. And now I read here that people call him arrogant, drunk etc. What I noticed is that in the US, people always have to clap each others back and suck each others toes in order to appear "nice" and "humble". Maybe if you're deeply invested in a subject matter, then you don't care anymore how you come across while speaking your mind. That style of conversation seen here would be rather normal in certain parts of Europe.

[@krapp2879]

One of the greatest movie maker of film history.

[@dragline.]

The reason he seems disrespectful is because he respects the interviewer enough to question him and engage a conversational tone. I've seen interviews with lesser interviewers, and he's kind to them, making the conversation tedious. That aside, I don't think Salam in this case has a good enough grasp on Morris and his work to ask the right questions.

[@donluchitti]

@:40 Funny, I just saw an Opie and Anthony episode where Donald Rumsfeld fielded questions from Louis CK.. When Louie asked Rummy if he was a lizard person, he deflected and answered a totally new question incredulously.

[@garlicjrmade6409]

Listening to this guy talk is like listening to a nails on a chalkboard. You want to run away as soon as it starts.

[@Bizdet]

when he talks about how rumsfeld is self deluded it made think of a point that zizek made, that these people who commit horrible acts they justify it with their inner lives, as lomg as their inner lives are kept in a certain way then it holds up a mirror to theor actions and all they see is the righteousness they've assigned to themselves as responsible fpr the actions. Himmler the SS commander had a group of friends who would play Beethoven pieces together. Yeah, they're nuts

[@saswatrath609]

They also shape the world in which we live. We never get the opportunity to do so.

[@egoborder3203]

Morris was a little rude to Salam, who counter-punched politely with intelligent questions all along. Great interview

[@joshdsimmons90]

Thank you! Reihan Salam Your a wonderful Interviewer.The passion you invoke in people well done sir, well done.

[@josephrangel2534]

I see a bunch of comments describing Morris as a "strange man" or something along those lines. Sure he's different but that's something that should be celebrated not mocked, I think it provides an insight into the people he interviews.

[@Kachikis]

I feel like most top commenters here are ignorant of how people act in an interview when there is actual respect on both sides. Errol wasn’t questioning his questions out of arrogance, it was a great dialogue, you could call it Socratic. There is no antagonism in that room. Any filmmaker would kill for an interview this open

[@poetradio]

You could say the psychology of Rumsfeld and McNamara were profiled decades ago in a fascinating book called Eichmann in Jerusalem.

[@AtreyaBasu]

Very enlightening. I was at the TIFF showing of Morris' documentary last year, and he gave similar responses but here he gives much more information. I think his thoughts on Rumsfeld would be a good documentary.

[@andyman820]

Can we do another interview with the FBI guy?

[@hutch13pbbc]

"bit of a jerk"? he interviewed Ed Gein with Werner Herzog. He's from Boston! we're jerks. Thin Blue Line had impact of freeing a wronged man and is a historical film for Independent cinema and documentaries (1984). Gates of Heaven. Fast Cheap... Mr Death!!!. Check his early work. Or watch the films or First Person. I love Errol Morris. He is interviewing Donald Rumsfeld. Can you even imagine what few people could elicit quality footage from him? Fine he has an agenda and is a showman. Take it with a grain of salt. He gives us wonderful things to think about *(also gives us amazing tv commercials in a miasma of mediocrity - check his Miller High Life Ads or the new Taco Bell/Ronald McDonald)

[@HowdyThere88]

Totally agree with your comment. Morris is smart, funny and actually quite likeable. I think some people are a bit upset that he has strong opinions or that he actually engages with the interviewer. BTW, he lives in Boston (Cambridge, actually), but he's originally from just outside NYC. In either case, both places are know for blunt speaking. But to even call him blunt is maybe going too far. It kind of upsets me that folks project arrogance onto him. It's like calling someone an elitist because they are knowledgeable. Sort of like saying "He's smart so he must think he's better than others."

[@amcsibozgor6791]

God isn't KZbin fantastic? I've got goosebumps... Maybe too much java.

[@rampency101]

Hamilton has a cool dad. Love the part of where he tries to explain how big the universe is.

[@ifeelsymmetry]

Reihan Salam is a phenomenal interviewer.

[@martinbrown1710]

Perhaps Rumsfeld appears empty and stupid because the truth he harbours, but won't tell, is so important - i.e. what is really going on with the power structures behind what we see.

[@Michael-cb5nm]

Louis CK was a guest on a radio show the same time they were interviewing Rummy. Louis called him a lizard-man…I don’t think he was joking!

[@cycliscs]

Mr. Salam is a very skilled and diligent interviewer whose podcasts I enjoy watching, however, this episode just shows how a grandmaster interviewee of one kind could turn the table around so easily. Mr. Morris was not pompous, arrogant or disrespectful at all. As a veteran host from his laudable experience, he simply quickly picked up mischief and misexpression blurred by Mr. Salam, which Mr. Salam conceded several times anyway, though not out of politeness but admission of guilt. Mr. Morris did raise a little of his voice when he thought the key point of his documentary was misunderstood or misrepresented by Mr. Salam, which struck me as bold, principal and uncompromisable. I do not feel Mr. Morris' statements offensive towards Mr. Salam in any way. His aggressive style to control the conversation was not rooted in his excessive ego, but his opinionated mind and acute awareness of discourse.

[@Nominay]

When Errol Morris speaks it's often in a way that sounds like he's about to have a stroke.

[@frankjamesbonarrigo7162]

love Errol Morris docs

[@December151791]

Reihan Salam got the Morris treatment here...

[@alexmcintyre2136]

i can just tell errol's mouth is dry af by the way you can hear his mouth smack open every time he speaks

[@alexmcintyre2136]

You are so funny.

[@alexmcintyre2136]

Lmao. he deleted his comment

[@alexmcintyre2136]

face

[@yemo34]

Requires two sittings. Salams damn patient.

[@roboreilly-gindhart7868]

Very interesting interview. I enjoyed Fog of War. I felt that McNamara was exceptional and tragic.

[@michaelgilbrech4159]

Reihan: I feel that.. Errol: Nahh..

[@hntrbdnspns]

LOL

[@ChaseEllisVoice]

13:41... "They"... It's a word echoed from his discussions with Rumsfeld... A detachment from the nation as a whole. "THEY", like, "T.he H.oard of E.cumenical Y.odlers" as mentioned by the WB series "Pinky and the Brain". What could a documentary look like without such bias? It's a beautiful idea. I think, despite Errol's clear bias... He found a wonderful force-balance in "The Unknown Known", and I do indeed love him for it.

[@Trainy2]

I saw his film The Fog of War, which was interesting and disturbing at the same time. This one seems like it will be almost too disturbing to watch.

[@SarkTheShark94]

Very interesting interview.

[@mikeofcetacea]

An interviewer interviewing an interviewer. Reihan's style is calculated, but conversational. Errol's style is totally different, and it makes this interview difficult to watch. Although, I think this is inevitable, Morris takes his time to explain himself in almost tangental terms, which can be hard to follow.

[@hntrbdnspns]

i actually like both of these guys although reihan's opinions don't mirror my own he seems like a smart man. morris shouldn't be interviewed himself, he has an idea of how interviews should be done, any less than that even if the subject is himself, he is clearly annoyed.

[@nathanb5579]

I like this guy, i will study his work.

[@DuchessandHammer]

Just did a thesis on this... :'( my beautiful eyes are Roger'd.

[@williamroddy2755]

reihan crushes it

[@HowdyThere88]

Great interview, very informative. The folks critical of Morris seem to be way over-reacting. Good questions and good answers.

[@vfwh]

On Rumsfeld's light footprintedness, it's a misunderstanding: Rumsfeld wanted to invade Irak with 15K men. It was both the ideology of efficiency (the modern state has to do things efficiently like "us business executives" expect) as well as hubris (the US forces and my strategic acumen as so exceptional that no people can resist its will). The military got ver frustrated at his inadequate understanding of how hard it is to invade a country. But Rumsfeld was never stand-offish about the invasion. He just thought it would be epically easy. I got this from Cobra II: www.amazon.com/Cobra-II-Inside-Invasion-Occupation/dp/0375422625

[@rfn944]

The country has certainly been destabilized as a result of having Rumsfeld as secretary of defense. McNamara was just as crazy.

[@TheFlyingPenut001]

when does the Jamaican bud vid come out

[@ChaseEllisVoice]

41:32... Neither the interviewer (who's doing a solid job overall, btw.) nor Errol have served in a combat MOS, or the military in any form. There's a reason Hemingway resonates with soldiers on such topics... it's because he was there with us. Those who haven't been there are confused and can only speculate on what we've lived.

[@posimosh]

Do you guys mind doing a bit of research before interviewing these people. I understand Morris is a bit of a weird duck, but asking him stupid questions that basically just parrot back some observation he just made or rephrasing a one of the pontifications that end with a statement in the form of a question (to the viewer) where the interviewer then answers the questions and then asks it back sounds like a five year old trying to sound smart. Vice has an opportunity to ask some important people about some important questions pertaining to the current state of our world. This is exceedingly rare in an increasingly homogenous media landscape for an unabashed somewhat rebellious outsider to breakthrough. Vice does important and groundbreaking journalism and has talented people working there. They can afford to send folks to places where more conventional journalism outfits won't, don't, or refuse to send a hungry journalist to the places where people and events are making news. Just do your homework before you get someone on your show. Every single fact repeated by the interviewer had just been stated by Morris. Ignoring the rest of Morris' vast and nuanced range of work when his other films clearly relate to the upcoming Rumsfield film is a missed opportunity to say the least.

[@vtwatchdog]

Is this a Marlon Brando / Alfred Hitchcock thing? Or is this dude hammered. He seems eloquent & lucid, but did someone smell that glass?

[@jfjvhgsieofl]

This interviewer was the wrong choice to interview Mr. Morris. He doesn't seem very bright, and his judgements on the film were off on just about every question he asked. "Great artists steal." "I thought Mr. Rumsfeld was very serene." I couldn't believe what I was hearing. How did he get a job? Haha

[@Heavy_Distortion]

The old man sounds cranky like he just woke up.

[@MichaelWinger]

Good questions, Reihan. Shame he didn't really engage with you.

[@johnmayer3077]

Mr. Morris is a mean jerk to that Indian man. I believe that Mr. Morris is an anti-Indian.

[@Nix-xo9js]

Is Morris himself somewhat...strange or am i imagining it?

[@gullier1]

I feel like this guy infuriates Reihan. Love it... brilliant interview

[@HK83IE]

not serene, but comfortable with his own self

[@avarioussire]

ok VICE i typically love your reporting but how in the hell did you chose Reihan Salam to interview one of the greatest interviewers of all time? clashing wavelengths the entire way through... errol morris nearly makes this dude cry @ 38 min. young man crying scene talking about old man crying scene. no good.

[@spriderrider312]

I really enjoy Morris's work but they really need to get that mic further from his mouth! Who is the sound guy in the room?!? Jesus Christ!!

[@agentsmidt3209]

@20:21 Errol Morris was also probably referring to this uppity interviewer too. I can smell his pseudo-intellectualism from a mile away. The interviewer wants to appear to be intelligent more than being really intrigued by Errol Morris's work .

[@MoonRegolith]

Thoughtful approach.... but too brutally slow, unedited and raw. I'm patient but couldn't sit through these 48 minutes easily for a few small points with very few concrete examples, let alone clips of the work under discussion (I did sit through it all). Least enjoyable Vice piece I have seen yet, and I normally like their slow, thoughtful pieces.

[@JonnyEarthling]

Bit of a bore fest this. Interesting fact though.Errol Morris son Hamilton Morris is a journalist and science editor of Vice magazine.

[@changoTCL]

Whoa. Huge fan of both and never ever realized that was his son.

[@abehani7133]

Few minutes into the interview, I just knew it was going to be rough. Mr. Morris has his own pace and processing speed, and Salem was not mindful of that. Also, Salem's injections and not-so-smart remarks were not helpful, but rather distracting.

[@JoshKim]

is that a vodka tonic?

[@ussabuelhage2826]

Reihan Salam u are awesome bro are you from India

[@MrDidaxi]

I got into reading the comments; eventually, it proved tiring; a question I have is why do so many commenters find him "arrogant"... Is it because he is the kind of plain raconteur of matters and facts, in a way such, a considerable majority Stateside finds it annoying... because it simply pins down the indisputable fact that US citizens insist on being manipulated by political criminals? Meh...

[@BrandenBrazil]

Let it be known that pomposity is not required to appear intelligent. Indeed, some humility would go a long way in the interview.

[@GOPsithlord]

Well, for as much as I don't particularly agree with Mr.Morris, he's a man whose a product of his era and I can't blame him. No small wonder then that he'd try to pull a "Fog of War" with Rumsfeld and yet find him self-assured and not at all contrite. For what it's worth, at least Morris let's his subjects give detailed answers and does what a documentary film maker should do: document.

[@suddenuprising]

from my perspective the american genocide of vietnam of which Rumsfeld was apart desensitized him, thats why he seems so cold and un-caring

[@jakesmith3017]

get out a straight sentence, Christ he beats around the bush trying to me philosophical

[@kriskane]

At the eighteen minute mark, it finally dawned on me who Morris reminds me of, here. An old friend of mine who drank himself to death. He'd get like this after about a bottle and a half of bourbon. Wish I'd skipped this one.

[@sadiegirl217]

My dad :(

[@kriskane]

I'm sorry, Sadie.

[@egosniff]

robert california ?

[@austinbaldwin1342]

Damn, how drunk is Morris here? Get yourself together man.

[@machia-mw1lm]

Better go back to your beer commercials.

[@richarddawkins9293]

Errol seems somewhat of a difficult persona. The interviewer asked intellectually stimulating and straightforward questions. Errol had serious difficulties answering these question. He gets tangled up with insignificant semantics.

[@JohnSmith-to5ow]

Richard Dawkins nah.

[@richarddawkins9293]

John Smith ya.

[@cI0udnine]

I believe that Reihan Salam did a great job. When he states that Donald Rumsfeld "projects serenity", he's totally right. Rumsfeld is doing this documentary, in my opinion, to project his innocence. He seems proud that he's able to skirt most questions with something witty and "remove himself" from major issues. He's dealt with these questions before, he's a master manipulator, (he tricked the entire country [anout Iraq and WMDs] during the Bush Administration!). "The removal of [Rumsfeld]" may be better, Morris, I agree. But I think most of us see the wolf behind the smirk. In contrast, McNamara seems to be confessing his willingness to remove himself from major issues (although he may have addressed some of them with unsuccessful resolutions, occasionally). McNamara admits that he just plain fucked up.

[@SteinhauerJohn]

Is that Vodka he's drinking, or is he always like this?

[@vacomments]

It was an outstanding documentary. But it doesnt live up to The Fog of War. The fog of war was richer, more compressed, in the sense that extraordinary emotions seemed to be upfront more often than not. Unknown known lacks the driving fluid of a good score. One could argue that it lacks from Philip Glass. Glass lifted the fog of war into another dimension. The soundtrack is the core, is what gives color to the words, to the images, is what amplifies emotions. In a sentence, Unknown Known is good, but simply too little, too transparent.