Erwin McManus on the Future of the Church

Erwin McManus on the Future of the Church, How to Do Evangelism More Effectively, Authenticity and Reflections on Being Labeled a Heretic
Erwin McManus returns to the podcast to talk about the future of the church, how to have more effective evangelism with people who don't believe in Jesus and why it's so hard for Christians to be authentic. Erwin also reflects on a lifetime of being labeled a heretic and outsider in the church he so deeply believes in.
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[@gabobli]

Thank you for giving Ptr Erwin a safe space to be expressive and honest about the church, Carey! Appreciate you, brother!

[@arvinsepehr9450]

It's interesting he mentioned THAT specific talk from the GLS. I'd been aware of Erwin prior to then but THAT talk was the biggest deal to me. I went online and purchased every book of Erwin's before the talk was even over.

[@mimi-dh9bn]

First time hearing Erwin. Encouraged me to listen, understand, think outside the box. I always learn on your channel Carey

[@JanCraneJOY]

Language my Grandchildren learned German plus English as infant and a two year old. They were born as Meth babies. Today in Germany they are bilingual in my daughter's house. I am dyslexic today at 69 spelling and thinking about a word I want to speak at times difficult. Yet I live to speak to strangers and curiosity of knowing people. I too think out of the box look for clues as I watch and hear a person. I really liked this podcast. TY

[@natecombsmusic]

This channel has changed my life, and never moreso than the first time you interviewed Erwin. Thank you so much. I live a similar life to him, and my current big "heresy" is not as beautifully stated as his, yet I keep going back to it over and over and over again.

[@uniformsofdaryl]

I’ve been waiting for this! Thank you Casey for your top notch interviewing skills. So good.

[@jonrush]

This is so good.

[@raymond_tora]

If McManus were alive in the early centuries of the church, he would be a church father. He's a widely learned leader and sees so many patterns and connections of knowledge that point back to Jesus. To God be the glory! Great talk!! 👍

[@garysweeten5196]

However, on further thought, the term “new” as Solomon used if I remember correctly, was not “Nothing is ever new or different but the cycle of life was similar from generation to generation from kings to paupers. Birth, growth, gather, lose it, die and someone else takes the goods.

[@TheSungjiun]

Thank you for always sharing precious interviews that strengthen, encourage the body of Christ✟🤍

[@kenholland7905]

WOW another amazing interview with a terrific guest, thank you both.

[@annarichards6056]

There's nothing new under the sun because ideas are eternal, they are outside of time and therefore aren't under the sun. Roger Charles sharing on that in the Creativity episodes on The Sessions w/ Cynthia Garrett blew my mind and revolutionised how I approach creating 🔥

[@MikeKBar13]

Absolutely love Erwin and have watched quite a few hours of him so far (on youtube), but first time seeing you Carey (but not my last I watched Pete Scazzero right after this). Your questions got Erwin to open up about some things I hadn't heard him speak on before. I got most of it for sure, but the statement at 33:01 has got me completely stumped. I thought I heard Erwin say "I think the tragedy sometimes is that we think holiness is irrelevance." but the close caption had it as "we think holiness is irrelevant". Either way Carey gave a big "knowing" reaction, but I'm just confused. I want to be "in the know", please what did I miss? Thanks!

[@GBvybes]

If I can take a stab at it, Michael, I think what he’s referring to is the fact that, in culture today, many see things that are church-related as being out-of-touch or outdated. Because Christian ideology has existed for so long, and has so long been considered “the norm”, our culture immediately tends to place it in the category of irrelevance and basic tradition. While it may be new for some people, and for many it brings relevant insights daily, on the whole the feeling is that talking about “holy” things in a contemporary context, especially a context as front-facing in the thought-leadership space as Lewis’s podcast, is often deemed counter-productive. Carey’s reaction came, I think, from knowing that, in reality, it has the very real potential to be the exact opposite.

[@MikeKBar13]

@@GBvybes thanks Gerald! It was definitely a head scratcher for me, because I am usually following everything Erwin is saying. I watched that interview with Lewis and I definitely got that Erwin is very winsome and happy to engage with people who don’t necessarily believe exactly the way he believes. In a way it’s one of the privileges and opportunities of our current age (the age of faith), and Erwin is an encouragement to me to do likewise. Not sure what the tense interviews with Lewis with the other friend who characterized him as an atheist looked like, but Erwin is so disarming and endearing, and he just shares his journey. I also love that he says “I’m not trying to bring something to you as much as I’m trying to draw something out of you”. I agree with Carey’s assessment - a definite Master Class.

[@KJ-lb4tj]

I kind of get it it when Erwin talks about there's nothing new under the sun being wrong. At the same time... I'm not sure he answered it. What exacyly is the new thing? Ok, we're saved and before we weren't. I don't think that particular statement IS actually talking about fatalism or inevitability. I get it that we create and nothing is exactly the same, and yet...we do see a repetition of human personality and mistakes and cultures. We see all the same things in the Bible that we see today... Slavery, sexual sins like the Romans etc. Ok, so it's expressed thru new technology, but humans are humans...we repeat similar sins.

[@petechiofalo8704]

Carey… contextually speaking… Solomon was not wrong. Nothing new under the sun in the book of Ecclesiastes relates to nothing ultimately satisfying. That is true. No one since him has been able to invent anything that operates without God that can satisfy the human soul. It’s not about ideas for doing church. They’re not even related. that’s ludicrous.

[@JBM101]

The person I want people to remember in a year from now or when I am gone is Jesus Christ no other person or name is more influential now and for eternity ... lets focus on Him rather than our name, our idea, our church we are building ... He is center lets keep Him there and move oursleves out of it

[@TyHamlet]

There are many golden calves to melt in the church moving forward.

[@cosmic_order]

God can do things that are fundamentally new to us because he isn't "under the sun" in the same sense that the world is. We can also do things in the spirit of that newness because that same God now lives in us. Solomon was right, but we have to make sense of what he said in context of the rest of scripture.

[@cosmic_order]

That being said, I don't think that Erwin's take is heretical, per se, just poorly communicated.

[@justin.shipley]

@@cosmic_order I said the same thing. Maybe Solomon's rest of the story completes why he said what he did.

[@adamden9947]

(A revolutionary? Challenging God's word to the point of rejecting the words of Solomon by, as what seems to come across as, words equated to that of a philosophical writer rather than a Holy Spirit inspired writer? If Solomon was wrong then he wasn't Holy Spirit inspired and therefore just a philosopher of his time! I believe his writing's were Holy Spirit inspired as we read); 1 Kings 3:9-12,Therefore give to Your servant an [b]understanding heart to judge Your people, that I may discern between good and evil. For who is able to judge this great people of Yours?” 10 The speech pleased the Lord, that Solomon had asked this thing. 11 Then God said to him: “Because you have asked this thing, and have not asked long life for yourself, nor have asked riches for yourself, nor have asked the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding to discern justice, 12 behold, I have done according to your words; see, I have given you a *wise and understanding heart* (emphasis added), so that there has not been anyone like you before you, nor shall any like you arise after you. (I know who I'd rather trust at their word!)

[@garysweeten5196]

It sounds as though he ran into people that were deterministic not open to redemption and change.

[@JunyahYT]

First!!!

[@jonnewman21]

Exodus 3 Moses and the Burning Bush Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up.” When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.” “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God. The Lord said, “I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey-the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. And now the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them. So now, go. I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt.” But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the Israelites out of Egypt?” And God said, “I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain.” Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?” God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’” God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers-the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob-has sent me to you.’ “This is my name forever, the name you shall call me from generation to generation. “Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers-the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob-appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen what has been done to you in Egypt. And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites-a land flowing with milk and honey.’ “The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, ‘The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the wilderness to offer sacrifices to the Lord our God.’ But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go. “And I will make the Egyptians favorably disposed toward this people, so that when you leave you will not go empty-handed. Every woman is to ask her neighbor and any woman living in her house for articles of silver and gold and for clothing, which you will put on your sons and daughters. And so you will plunder the Egyptians.”

[@shawnmitchell23]

His approach on genius-ness is very similar to Kanye. lots of overlap

[@jonnewman21]

Let me think about this one before I comment with Scripture KZbin I know how you like to block people who are just deep thinkers and might need someone to help pull them out of the bottomless pit 🕳

[@petethompson9315]

Erwin sounds like an Open Theist. 😳

[@SPERODEI]

If Erwin truly has the conviction of 4 things: : 1. "to be a futurist you only have to see the present," (of which Carey says he quotes often)... and 2. if Erwin actually thinks Determinism is humanly fatalistic and theologically does not line up with a God who ALWAYS does new things, and 3. "today's heresies are tomorrow's orthodoxy," and finally 4. if he actually believes he had ideas that got him blacklisted that are now acceptable... then instead of just being provocative in the things he says, writes, and thinks, realize that 20th century American Evangelicalism is shifting, here, in the 21st century. Its not going to happen... it IS HAPPENING, and quit trying to hold on to the protestant-reformational past, because this 4 things above would only mean, you get on board with the evolving progression that is taking place within Christian theology. Come out and support LGBTQ+ inclusion in the church. If you're willing to say Solomon is wrong, then be willing to say that 6 verses in all of the Bible need new light shed on them, and an ancient perspective was just that, an ancient perspective, and we now evolve and change. If Erwin really holds to those 4 things, then Erwin say, "we can still take the Bible seriously, even take it as inspired, while still not taking it all literally, inerrantly, when that is not even intellectually nor historically honest. If Erwin really thinks he's an innovator, then don't just look back to his innovation, to late 20th century evangelicalism and church growth, as innovation...because evangelicalism's true innovation was in the 16th & 17th centuries. To REALLY INNOVATE, be a modern day reformer and progress and evolve with what is actually happening in Christianity. It is progressing in order to survive, so it then can thrive. If Erwin truly thinks that "today's heresy is..." then may he follow his own proclamation: BECAUSE IT WILL BE TOMORROW'S ORTHODOXY. Merely updating evangelicalism in the 1990's, and early 2000's, when it was already 500 years old, may have gotten a young talented, even intelligent minister praise from his evangelical tribe, yet it is still not innovation. It is just trying to hold on to a 500 year past by merely updating it. ERWIN! WE ARE HUGE FANS OF YOU AND HAVE FOLLOWED YOU THRU THE YEARS. YOU HAVE IMPACTED US! WE LOVE YOU. But now it's time to get really radical, ABOUT THE 4 THINGS ABOVE YOU SAY you're about, and shed 20th century biblicism, 20th century church growth, 20th century christian patriarchy, and truly LISTEN TO YOURSELF and DO what you say you believe (because you have great influence)! Embrace the present. It's here -- Christianity is changing as it always has done -- and help us, help it, to stay LIVING and evolve with it. 63 YEARS OLD IS YOUNG... you still can evolve. Jesus said... "METANOIA, for the kingdom is at hand." As you know, metanoia not only means change directions, but GO BEYOND where you are, to where God is flowing. We're rooting for you. This all said... amazing interview Carey and Erwin.

[@TyHamlet]

Ecclesiastes and Hebrews are both correct. Ecclesiastes speaks to the ages whereas Hebrews speaks to the age. Romans 3:23 says for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The response to homosexuality by the institution of the church has been disproportionate to say the least relative to other sin. Closed and not affirming was and is not an appropriate response by the church, but neither is open and affirming. The only biblical direction forward for the body of Yeshua in regards to all sin is open and not affirming. Recognizing that Yahweh accepts us as we are but loves us too much to leave us that way. I will leave you with two questions. The first question is do you believe in Yahweh? If the answer is no you do not, well then salvation is not secure nor is eternity promised. Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. If the answer however is Yes you do believe in Yahweh then the next question must be. Does Yahweh change? Because if Yahweh changes, shifts and evolves with time, culture and traditions then salvation is not secure nor is eternity promised, eat drink and be merry. But… If Yahweh is unchanging and the simple covenant that He made with Ben Adam and Chavah, and that Yeshua died to fulfill are still what he wants for and from us today, then and only then is salvation secure and eternity promised. This is the immutability of Yahweh.

[@SPERODEI]

@@TyHamlet - thanks for your comment back Tyler. Yes, I have my trust in YHWH. Does YHWH changes or NOT. The point is: we change and we evolve. Biblical interpretation changes, and if you think it doesn't... you're not being intellectually honest or historically aware. Evangelicals have changed their

[@TyHamlet]

@@SPERODEI your reply is addressed in my previous comment. You are reading to respond and not to fully process.

[@SPERODEI]

@@TyHamlet - hmmm? yes, I see that Tyler. I wrote much more than that and I apologize that it ALL didn't process.

[@TyHamlet]

@@SPERODEI its all good. I appropriate that despite what spectrum of thought we come from, we speak respectfully and kind to each other preserving our humanity.

[@Dehkious]

I don’t like or agree with what that guy said. God is the same yesterday, today and forevermore.

[@TyHamlet]

Let us first remember that the Torah as well as the bible as a whole is 4 dimensional. That is to say there are 4 layers or approaches. In the jewish tradition they are known as the Pardes, the literal, moral, allegorical, and anagogical. This method is also known as hermeneutics.That being said in consideration of Ecclesiastes 1:9 and Hebrews 43:19 I think both views are equally correct. Existence is both linear and cyclical. Linear in the cycle of birth and death and cyclical in the cycle of the ages. Much like the difference in a day and a year. A day is one rotation of the earth and a revolution is one rotation of the earth around the Sun. Ages like people live and die. But they do so in the span of revolutions not rotations. A new idea is truly “revolutionary” in every sense of the word. Hebrews is speaking to the age while Ecclesiasties is speaking to the ages, the 4 cycles or turnings of an age the ancients called the Saeculum. Solomon, a wise man who has reached an age of retrospect and is lamenting about the futility of it all as he consider existest past himself.Take intermittent fasting. Something the Egyptians wrote about centuries ago. Yet when shared today it blows people's minds in its simplicity and effectiveness. The gospel is not much different. The way of Yahweh is perfect in its simplicity. We are the ones that complicate it. Look at how we approach worship. The word worship in the Hebrew means to crush. Like a sponge we should ring out all things worldly even ourselves and be filled with His spirt.The idea that we only give that process three 5 minute songs and Yahweh help us if we go over is laughable. The goal should be being one in the spirit and that should take as long as it takes to get there. There is much in the church today that is like try to get a fish to see water. Hebrews 43:19 I believe is about uncovering not creating. Uncovering what has been lost along the way. As institutions of faith in the US face a transition from large program driven ministry to smaller missions driven ministry it can seem like a new thing, when in reality Europe has been experiencing the same thing for decades