ETHEREUM VS. SOLANA: Which Blockchain Wins 2024 & Beyond?

[@Bankless]

⚡ CARTESI | LINUX-POWERED ROLLUPS bankless.cc/CartesiGovernance

[@PvMLad]

Most interesting discussion between 2 engineers I've ever listened to

[@Mohnstrudel]

Justin seems to be full-time pissed

[@Jadeite12]

@@Mohnstrudel And Anatoly full-time drank, or well, maybe both drunk, they just react differently, one gets upset, the other just mocks.

[@mindfed]

Just remember …. although Anatoly comes off a bit too laid back at times, he is actually an engineer who built products… Justin is a researcher, not a builder.

[@andrewmasse8492]

@@Jadeite12 yeah the mocking is a tell. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

[@gordyhydro5774]

@PvMLad You need to get out, mate!! So luna is going nowhere.

[@flyhunterz]

I'm neutral between Ethereum and Solana, but from what I could gather, Justin Drake has a much deeper understanding of the underlying mechanics of these systems. After this debate, I'd lean towards ETH as a long term hold, but future will tell. Thanks for this marvelous debate

[@TJ-rn5ym]

He’s a researcher. Not a dev

[@entonces1986]

How can I know more than the actual creator of Solana 😅

[@Milli_G3N]

​@@TJ-rn5ym To be fair as a researcher, Justin's knowledge is incredible. But he sounded a little bit too academic and less practical to me. I'd always be inclined to trust the programmer over the researcher.

[@TheMajorpickle01]

@@Milli_G3N I mean t that's the solana v Eth debate in a nutshell. Mad Engineer's v Nerdy Academics. Solana is trying to beat the landspeed record by strapping a rocket to a kia picanto, Eth wants to do it by minimising drag etc. It's great for sol if they don't blow up, and great for ETH is sol's rocket doesn't hold together. For my taste, I prefer the steady progress of ETH over the aggressive "we'll work it out" of Sol

[@Yu10l10]

This is why ethereum is the way it is today, same as Cardano. Researching is the easiest part, actually applying engineering for mass scale is not research. Many teams in crypto I've come across have followed research papers, only to find out major flaws, spent months fixing it because the research didn't transition to the practical. Ethereum have been word smiths since I used their chain back in early 2016. Alot of failed deliveries, refocus marketing and alot of talk yet not alot of actual doing. Toly has experience scaling, this is why he's laughing because he knows Justin is too much of a book worm and not in reality. This is why Solana has blew up, Toly and Raj are all about executing for what users want, fast and cheap.

[@pro-indicators]

During the two-hour debate, one point stood out to me. The vision for blockchain's future seems to hinge on this key question: should we establish a universal, unchanging truth for all digital assets (L1), with faster subsystems (L2) for those seeking to compete on arbitrage ? Or should we have a single blockchain space with probabilistic sub-sampling propagation updating every 400ms, overseen by a group of validators competing on hardware and bandwith requirement to exploit information asymetry ? This question reminds me of the information war with High-Frequency Trading (HFT) pretending speed would positively impact market performance. Studies demonstrated that it has not, and instead, HFTs prioritize risk-free gains, extracting value from the market, reducing efficiency, and increasing volatility. So we basically know the answer towards a more efficient market structure, it's Ethereum, not Solana. Value will land in the first one, mercenary capital will compete endlessly in the second in a pointless battle.

[@thomasg.bryantp.e.]

I am an engineer, and this is one of the most interesting discussion debates that I ever heard definitely worthwhile. Bankless, you guys are incredible on the value added that you bring to my life. Love, the fact that Justin is so well educated and informed on the Ethereum Blockchain, with its strengths, weaknesses, and next steps

[@Bankless]

Want early access, bonus episodes and a fully ad-free experience? Sign up to become a Bankless Citizen: bankless.cc/GoAdFree

[@Brittni-b1c]

Now everyone is doing automatic trading in Solana and I don't know how.

[@SparkleQuezaire]

Naturally, GPT Niper Bot.

[@kendra-xg6zd]

Could you suggest a tool for automating Solana token purchases?

[@tukaman8]

Jupiter

[@Flavie-i7j]

Now that automatic trading in Solana is popular, I’m completely lost.

[@Karla-r2r]

Definitely, GPT Niper Bot.

[@YvetteStutler]

Quite so, GPT Niper Bot.

[@Flavie-i7j]

Certainly, GPT Niper Bot.

[@StickyFINGER-ci4pw]

I like Solana that I swapped some of my Ethereum with it and banked most of my fiats to Sol this year. But Anatoly does not sound as forward and future thinking but rather a bit unconvincing as his argmuments sounded like he has made Solana as a MEME Layer 1.. Ironic? ... First time I have heard or seen Justin but he has a clearer vision of where Ethereum is heading. His arguments makes me realised how mature Ethereum is as he clearly understand, articulates and anticipates past, present and future challenges of Ethereum in a grand scale, He sounds like someone I could re-invest and stake my hard-earned fiat with! I also like his closing remarks. That viision is just perfect to mass adaption and user-experience. Ethereum won this round. What do otheres think? Andd would there be a Round 2 @Bankless?

[@omasmohnstrudel]

Totally agree, I just unstaked my sol.

[@lgrrf]

I disagree. I think Anatoly has been very convincing in several issues, such as not building for infinite scalability, having security through slashing, TVL not being the right metric, and the possibility of having light clients in Solana. Justin has also scored a few points, such as reducing latency to 2 rounds, and the importance of network effects. Overall, one of the best discussions I've seen. Please do more like it.

[@Waverider10]

I disagree, Justin across as arrogant, attacking and condescending whilst Anatoly was more realistic and inclusive.

[@Metacognition88]

This was a great debate but bad idea to have this podcast sway so much of one’s decision to go with eth or sol. Each protocol has an army of very smart people addressing ever issue brought up here.

[@scruvvy]

A lot of words, yet nothing said.

[@PearseNation]

Honestly, this conversation was way beyond my understanding haha

[@Martinez-u1t]

Really? I am no engineer by most of this topics are pretty simple problems to understand

[@delanya2069]

Facts!!! I've no idea what they are talking about, but I hope watching it will make me smarter by osmosis 🙏🏿

[@telotawa]

1:11:50 if security of the network was just the physical boxes and links - then why do you even need proof of stake?

[@radio657]

to prevent spam

[@astendavis6442]

I think Justin's declaration that Eth has won is completely disingenuous. Nothing has been won as there is barely any real crypto adoption, not to mention eth has been around 5 years longer so of course its going to greater network affects. It's a testament to Solana that so much has been accomplished the past 4 years to even be in the discussion of surpassing eth... Lastly, Solana seems to be more pragmatic in approach, where as Eth is more theoretical. I'm not betting my hard earn money on "maybe's" and decentralized theater. I'll still hold some eth, but my vision aligns more with solana's end game

[@KylanHurt]

Same here. ETH maxis talk in abstract ideals but the needs of the public are much simpler and more immediate. I'll still hedge my bets but ETH supporters often sound tone-def.

[@michalbotor]

eth community has become dogmatic. they just fear losing their crown so they shit on everyone else. bullied has become the bully.

[@MaxOut931]

Couldn’t agree more!

[@50cents668]

ETH started with decentralized and secure network in mind. Solana started with speed and high-frequency trading financial market in mind. The former has a much larger capital market. Note that high-frequency trading financial market requires a market (not just the memes) in the first place.

[@foojee23]

Two claims by anatoly i can't get past: 1/ inflation (selling) is not a cost to the network 2/ economic security is a meme. if 2/ were true, blackrock would be building on solana. but they're not. and any crypto VC will tell you 1/ is simply not true. this debate proves once and for all that you can be technically proficient but if you don't understand cryptoeconomics & game theory then you don't understand the problem space. if anatoly truly believes either of these things, then nothing of significant value will ever get built on solana other than meme coins and micropayments -- which is fine, but i wouldn't want to be on his side of the debate if anything of real value is at stake. my read of solana from the beginning was that it was a technical solution to an imaginary problem born from a fundamental misunderstanding of what cryptoeconomics attempts to achieve. sbf never understood the problem space either, so it makes sense solana became a sam-coin.

[@10aseeTalk]

Blackrock owns a portion of Visa and many other giants of industry that are building on Solana. Dig a little deeper

[@acpjr]

But the "problem" for SBF was how to maximize profit. He saw more price upside with Solana and he was right. And what do you consider "significant value"? Are you referring to RWAs on some Ethereum L2? Also, I don't think it's possible to fall on any side of the debate because I'm not sure if there was one. Ethereum and Solana are different projects with different goals. Bankless just wanted to pit them against each other because people trying to pump SOL keep calling it an Ethereum killer, but Anatoly doesn't even use that language. He's even on record saying it doesn't matter if SOL's price goes down.

[@kathrynj.hernandez8425]

[@andrewmasse8492]

he doesn't know anything

[@PatrickAyelle]

49:12 your editor who did the advertising cut at this exact moment deserves a raise

[@IDKDCA]

haha i'm definitely not watching this whole thing, or any of it other than this cut, VERY GOOD lol

[@MetalBum]

Well done 😂😂 🫡

[@Deroxated]

I like Solana, started using it at the early stages (sollet wallet) but the meme P&D shitcoins loving community that has taken over and the growing chasm in UX with ETH L2s (slow, failed Tx...) combined with the fact that the best Dapps are now on L2s make me reconsider this investment and I don't even believe in a multi L1 future anymore. ETH is king.

[@izaccy]

ETH can never be a king as long as they embrace fragmentation. the fact that u using what people do on the chain as a reason why is pathetic. nothing to do with Toly and. the team

[@4030mrstevo]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mneTh5WJn8ebgKc

[@rousseau327]

@@izaccy ETH isn't embracing fragmentation...

[@xcoconutmonkeyx]

Kaspa will replace them both Faster Cheaper and More secure then both once KRC20 and smart contracts are live really no reason to use either one all the layer 2's should just migrate to kaspa.

[@livelucky74]

Never listened to either of these guys but Anatoly comes off as an arrogant salesman/politician that tries to talk around (basically says "trust me bro") factual points brought up by Justin. I have a big bag of SOL but feel less confident it's future after this.

[@Guyle11]

Anyone that just uses sol, notices how much better of an experience sol is.

[@tony57racing4]

Sell.

[@acpjr]

Your comment proves that crypto is all a confidence and narrative game. You feel less confident in SOL after a 1hr debate? Did you buy SOL because you think it has cool logo or something 🤣

[@Jadeite12]

he gives Luna's Do vibes. And at least with Terra all was fine until it wasn't, Solana instead had various problems including the still present outages.

[@sel7506]

that's exactly that.. I don't like his vision about "this kind of attack never happened so having 3 billions dollars used to prevent it is bullshit" .. yeah but that's basically the definition of managing risk.. you anticipate future possible event that could fck up your business.. So many people handle risk after disaster happened.. Not a fan of his vision at all

[@paulhayes3026]

"There has never been this level of attack in a proof-of-stake network," statement by Anatoly reminds me of Auction Rate Securities market. All the major banks pushed large companies to invest in Auction Rate Securities because "the market daily Auction Rate Securities market has never failed." Then the Auction Rate Securities market failed, billions were lost, CFOs and Treasurers lost their jobs, and investors suffered losses.

[@acpjr]

Never say never I guess, but doesn't Anatoly have a point? The slashing risks are too big of a disincentive?

[@davycrockett8886]

Toly compares crypto to regular permissioned finance where you can just effectively just change the state whenever you like.That's why he considers security + liveness unimportant. But it's not always so easy to slash a perpetrator when the line is not that clear. Solana is just waiting for a bad actor to take advantage of this.

[@asurbernardo6478]

Anatoly sounds like a politician I know saying: No guys, printing money does come to a cost to a country! Well, this only depends on who you consider to be "the country".

[@meysamramezani3087]

Except you can't really compare money printing with token inflation. When countries print money, you have no way of getting your fair share of the printed money. Whereas in Solanas case, if you stake your SOL you are actually getting your fair share plus additionally you are getting MEV rewards and fee rewards. Hence, not only are you not being diluted, but you are actually making a real return. So I actually think he makes a valid point, sell pressure of a token is not a COST to the network.

[@reniercuervo8577]

@@meysamramezani3087 which is paid in SOL, which got inflated by the issuance. Like for you as an individual it's great cuz you end up with more SOL, but in macro if the network issues SOL at 6% APY or whatever to incentivize staking, it's inflation by definition, you're printing new SOL as in each year there is 6% more SOL in the network.

[@DUES_EX]

Anatoly for the win. He is right. There is always a cost to inflation. The best part of SOL inflation is it caps at 1.5%. And it’s algorithm based so no one can control it. Unlike the U.S. government. Which will print money because it is fun. Crypto > Governance

[@asurbernardo6478]

But the point is that he denied that token inflation comes to a cost to the network, you are making the point that you can actually compensate that cost by having your stake stale... You are actually admiting that there is a cost to compensate!

[@meysamramezani3087]

@@asurbernardo6478 Yes I think it is a bit nuanced and in my opinion both drake and anatoly have valid points. If you don't stake, yes you are incurring a cost obviously. Also if you stake, it is considered taxable returns so it is less tax efficient than token burns like what ethereum does. So I like ethereums tokenomics better for this reason. But on the other hand what toly says fundamentally about a business value being derived by future cash flows and sell pressure being irrelevant is not wrong.

[@bbot1630]

Damn, Anatoly laughing made him look really ignorant especially when Justin was talking about bandwidth utilization and scaling for the future.

[@billyoduya]

Yup. Never trust somebody who laughs like a jackal constantly.

[@KylanHurt]

Yeah, it was hard to tell if he was laughing because he was nervous or just because he feels like he knows that much more

[@chriswalth]

I hardly understood anything in this debate. But his insecure laughter triggered me to make my own conclusions about which network will win…

[@BrianCanon]

He does that all the time. It's just his style and this is tech, usually no one gaf

[@artpatron719]

Maybe but the optics in a debate, it doesn’t help his position. Still brilliant tho

[@powerralley]

To simplify the fundamental difference: Solana is building with the assumption that a blockchain with a hard limit of blockspace will be able to cover all of humanity's future needs where as Ethereum is building with the assumption that blockspace demand will continue to grow forever. I actually think the AI assistant comment/prediction should have been explained further as I don't feel Anatoly really comprehended the ramifications if Drake is correct on that. It is not a far stretch to assume AI will be so commoditized that every person (perhaps even every device from your car to your microwave) will have AI connectivity and the amount of blockspace that could require is incomprehensible. I agree with Drake on this one. You need to design a blockchain to be infinitely scalable since you cannot predict the future, even if it take longer and is more difficult.

[@GT-dw6lx]

Do you honestly think Eth will be around in 20 years it’s laughable the things that are coming with so much pace will overtake all these projects. I personally think we need to look at the next 10 years probably at most until the next revolutionary thing comes talking about scaling to that degree is laughable at the moment

[@powerralley]

@@GT-dw6lx I disagree with you. I absolutely believe ETH will be around in 20 years. In fact I think ETH (& Ethereum blockspace demand) will be around in hundreds and hopefully thousands of years.

[@radio657]

more like solana is going with the assumption that Moores law keep going and hardware keeps on going up only like it has been since inception of computers.

[@KylanHurt]

Yeah I think Anatoly mentioning Google Search only having tens of thousands of requests per second is kinda silly because that's only one feature of Google. You still have Gmail, Google Drive, and dozens of other features that all have a ton of requests per second, and that's just Google... (are we going to include KZbin, as well?)

[@nickantiorio2874]

I'm favoured, $50K every week! I can now give back to the locals in my communitv and also support God's work and the church.God bless America

[@josephbiturus4409]

How ..? Am a newbie in crypto investment, please can you guide me through on how you made profit?

[@nickantiorio2874]

A lot of people still make massive profit from the crypto market, all you really need is a relevant information and some professional advice.

[@nickantiorio2874]

Thanks to Mrs Deborah Davis.

[@nickantiorio2874]

She's a licensed broker here in the states

[@anglebarboza5829]

I'm surprised that this name is being mentioned here, I stumbled upon one of her clients testimony on CNBC news last week.

[@Snowmano42]

The main reason I keep Bankless subscribed is because every now and then they have good debates like this. Anatoly is an engineer and Justin is a researcher (also eth believer) and you can see the difference in thinking. Eth and Sol will both be around in the future.

[@thehoff1460]

Anatoly is someone I would want to work with. Justin is someone I would want to work for

[@dailymotivationdose7514]

A Good summarization.

[@FabienFabienB]

for me, it is the exact opposite.

[@astendavis6442]

Justin seems unbearable tbh

[@kathrynj.hernandez8425]

[@rousseau327]

@@astendavis6442 But not the guy who laughs while you're still talking? 😂

[@mihaicostescu]

Justin talks about the network effect being so big on ETH but he fails to mention why Render and others moved from ETH to Solana, why PayPal is launching Pyusd on Solana,, why Visa is looking at Solana. ETH wqs launched 9years ago and Solana 4 years ago... but Solana just flipped ETH in total economic value, it flipped ETH in daily transaction fees, 1 single dapp on Solana: Jupiter is doing more than 300 tx/sec daily surpassing ETH and ALL its L2s combined, the number of smart contract daily transactions on Solana is 30mil and on ETH 1.1mil. Solana's total fees are now at 50% of ETH and for reference in2021/2022 in peak activity was under 1% and in the beginning of this year was 10% etc etc etc...and wait for when Firedancer is comming... Eth and SOL do different things but if you want to compare them Solana comes on top overall...

[@BrianCanon]

Well said.

[@datooo23]

1. Solana's biggest test will come when a privacy-preserving protocol gets large-enough that governments will try to pressure Solana to censor them on protocol level. Ethereum passed that test. 2. Solana's tech can be replicated and built on top of ETH. Now we are seeing even faster chains than Solana. Eth's decentralization and programability (unlike BTC) cannot be replicated. Those are two major issues you cannot overlook.

[@davycrockett8886]

Shared sequencers + snarked proofs to make Ethereum one again. Maybe we need a name for this? Reunification coordination?

[@cradle_of_chaos]

The 'end game' 🙃

[@Gyunikuchan]

The merge

[@jacobfrancis3891]

Honestly every bankless episode makes my day. Love this channel

[@KylanHurt]

Meh, this is one of the few ones that I've liked. Hosts seem like ETH cheerleaders too often, IMO

[@imstanley34]

Jus don’t buy a coin they refer.. they all a 99% dumpfest lol

[@wantstocomment7092]

Saying TVL is not important (USDT/USDC) is like saying the amount of money a bank is entrusted with is not important. Low TVL / liquidity (pools, where the yield is created) is the worst kind of bad UX because it has no technical fix.

[@jax_bored]

He was mostly saying that revenue is more important than TVL. You do need it to a degree but you'd rather have 10b TVL and a profitable protocol than 100b TVL and an unprofitable or low profit one.

[@astendavis6442]

Wrong. Putting importance on TVL is where the problem lies. You should be looking at the velocity of the TVL and how much money is moving

[@FabienFabienB]

They are several "bad" reason why TVL can be high. One is capital inefficiency of Uniswap V2 which is disastrous. Solana DEXes are way more capital efficient due to low fees, high troughput, low latency... Then you don't need to park all this capital which 80% will never trade. It's a general principle but often high TVL came out of high capital inefficiency caused by the slowness, high fees, low throughput of Eth L1. And then the L2s bring fragmentation which is an even worst problem....

[@NieLL1]

what matters is what you're doing with that TVL these L2s have 10x Solana's TVL while doing 1/5 of the volume, they are just super capital inefficient compared to high-throughput chains, and the TVL stays there due to inertia/ideological alignment etc. But if the industry grows the money will eventually flow into more capital efficient chains (as long as they are also secure)

[@wantstocomment7092]

@@FabienFabienB Solana DEXs are very bad UX compared with Hyperliquid or any other similar L2 trading venue. You can't get that kind of leverage on solana because it lacks the USDT deposits to back it. TVL availability directly influences pricing on DEXes. Low TVL means shitty deals.

[@PatrickAyelle]

Dude.. can Anatoly PLEASE stop interrupting. Justin wins the debate just because he actually let Anatoly respond without interrupting

[@rousseau327]

Wasn't too bad for the first hour, but holy crap did it devolve throughout the second half

[@gregt301]

There was interrupting on both sides. Also, it felt like Justin was given more speaking time overall.

[@unluckystrik3]

That's not winning a debate

[@PatrickAyelle]

@@unluckystrik3 but that IS how you LOSE a debate…

[@diciplineisfreedom8384]

😂😂😂 maxi 😢😢😢

[@jeremyblanchard4379]

59:02 Justin is right. Block size re-arrangement reduces the safety and the likeness of the network as a whole. Re-assigning signatures on global shared state by erasure-coded block header propagation is certainly the most viable way to scale the network. So yes, I'm gonna say it again: We need Cancel-Drumksharping

[@PvMLad]

47:58 the last 2 minutes of this conversation solana just got destroyed

[@permaweave]

Thank you all for this debate... Justin, you are an incredibly intelligent person - so on TVL, why on Earth would you use TVL to indicate that a chain is getting used. Is it not preferable to look at how often and how much value is actually being moved on chain? TVL seems more like a metric to describe how rich the people are that decide to lock up their funds in various protocols, does it not?

[@rousseau327]

I don't think he's saying TVL is the only important metric, indicated by his comments on how Tron has a high TVL AND has high utility. I think he's getting irked at Anatoly dismissing it as an important metric altogether, and doing so by bringing up high TVL projects that have failed, sort of like correlation doesn't equal causation.

[@ReneSalasDesign]

Is it possible to have a chain with massive usage and low TVL?

[@permaweave]

@@ReneSalasDesign I mean.. this is basically SOL right now.

[@KylanHurt]

@@ReneSalasDesign Lots of chains give staking rewards while no one is actually doing anything with the tokens.

[@ReneSalasDesign]

@@KylanHurt understood, but I'm looking for the opposite. What chains have very high usage with little to no TVL? Imo if your chain is being highly used, it will naturally have lots of capital locked up in various protocols. This high TVL can be a good metric for assessing if a chain is useful. (Among other metrics)

[@topspn]

Great debate, thanks for putting this together Bankless guys! I will say as much as I love SOL, the repeated condescending laughing by Anatoly is unbecoming. It actually distracts from the points he's making and undermines the authority/strength he's trying to portray.

[@Blockchaindegenerate]

The laughing is his tic, he’s not being condescending. Watch any of his podcasts, he always has that laugh.

[@cosmosguy5962]

hes uncomfortable

[@astendavis6442]

He’s always done that, and imo it doesn’t undermine anything

[@spenser6353]

solana is not decentralized

[@TPGodlike]

@@astendavis6442 made him look like an asshole trying to replace missing arguments with a condescending laugh

[@into18]

Lets just say, there are 3 successful crypto ecosystems: BTC, ETH, SOL

[@MikeWoot65]

but then how are ppl suppose to tribal?! loll silly humans

[@spenser6353]

solana is not decentralized

[@kevinschmidt2210]

The only thing SOL is successful at is ripping off people. ICP will bury their poorly designed crypto.

[@simrans3675]

Nah man, let's keep fighting while SOL heads to 3K, ETH to 20K, BTC to $500K+ by 2030......

[@kevinschmidt2210]

@@simrans3675 SOL will head to zero before ICP gets through with out-competing them!

[@greg7mdp2]

Anatoly seem to imply that the value of the transactions (and the MEV extracted from them) is in the network fee ($0.02 for Solana). This is not the case at all. MEV resides in arbitrages, liquidations, exploiting mistakes, etc... not from grabbing the transaction fees. As Justin said the high-value transactions from which a lot of MEV can be extracted are included into blocks asap and don't sit in the mempool, so having more time to receive more transactions is a huge advantage. Any single new transaction may very well allow to build a more profitable block.

[@MattTheGunner]

These guys are genuinely operating on different wave lengths haha. Very impressive!

[@melodyinwhisper]

I'm not going to understand the tech. But I've used Eth in metamask and i've used Sol in Fantom. I'll choose fantom every time in terms of ease of use. Everybody who wants to pay too much gas, or constantly futzing around with bridges and l2 solutions and whatnot, be my guest, you can have it. The average crypto user wants something that is easy and inexpensive. Eth is neither of those things. That's all.

[@joshuawilliams9872]

You understand.

[@theonlyconstantischange123]

Use rabby, nobody promotes metamask anymore. It's night and day

[@rousseau327]

If you've purchasing SOL on a CEX and transferred it to SOL L1, you could do the same with L2s like Arbitrum...You can go the L1 -> L2 route if you'd like, but you're comparing apples to oranges UX here.

[@bosbr4nd]

@@rousseau327 If you stick to a CEX's you don't understand DeFi. Centralized Exchanges will die out over the years, Coinbase will become a monopoly and ask more fees, people don't like high fees to buy a coffee. The Solana fees are so low that people will use that over Ethereum high fees. People that buy Ethereum at Coinbase pay $2 per buy transaction, then comes the transaction fees to Metamask (add a couple of $$$), then they got it in Metamask and realize that grocery store 1 is only accepting Polygon Matic and grocery store 2 is only accepting Arbitrum. Plus the grocery stores must converge it back which give the grocery a high fee, so the grocerries will rise in price. Buyers and Sellers will grow tired of it real quick of fees and just want speed, ease of use and low fees, thus Solana.

[@Leoninmiami]

awesome!! Glad bankless is doing these types of podcasts. Get yourselves out of the cross fire. Invite both communities to the table in a fair discussion!! F*ing love it! next time have them go over what they think are their own chains biggest problems/faults before having the opposing team go over them. overall A+

[@davycrockett8886]

I don't know why Anatoly was initially arguing MEV is small value and Justin the opposite. I would think they would argue the opposite 😅 Anyway I think there will be more MEV the more blocks are full. But I guess that's not the only type of MEV capture, for example there is also front running. Encryption might help as Justin says. Plus if there is enough block space the MEV shouldn't be too high?

[@dom2484]

Thanks guys for a great discussion and kudos for summarizing and moderating through some high level technicalities(?)!

[@NoName-ki2lr]

Now that's an episode

[@mike77588]

Great Stuff! Hardly understood a thing, but that's all good!

[@KylanHurt]

Ya I've been working in the space for 7 years and understood less than half of it 🤣

[@NVBLE]

1:08:30 Justin Drake’s reaction to Anatoly’s claim 😂😂😂

[@Leoninmiami]

though obviously the conversation did get bog down at times with technicality, which I personally enjoyed, you guys erred on the correct side aka letting them them duel it out. Though less than ideal, some adjusting may be wished for, it is an approach which will have both communities coming back for more.

[@rpsjms2]

I couldn’t make it past an hour because yall kept letting Anatoly interrupt. Justine couldn’t finish a damn sentence. Bad mediation.

[@BrianCanon]

Justine. Lol

[@datooo23]

1:44:39 it's not only about charging for pure "data" but charging for the ability to access *uncensored data* with a ~guarantee of staying censorship resistant in future as well. Solana's biggest test will come when a privacy-preserving protocol gets large-enough that governments will try to pressure Solana to censor them on protocol level. Ethereum passed that test.

[@2825jim]

Bro sounds like the guy from bobs burgers 😭

[@mrgidget5495]

He definitely sounds like Bob 😂

[@konfushon]

I feel like this was a debate between a business person (Anatoly) and a researcher/engineer(Justin). Don't get me wrong, Anatoly is definitely an engineer but I feel like that side of him wasn't seen in his arguments here.

[@Sssanbo]

Strange I felt the opposite. Justin was academic but Anatoly held his own and was grounded in his real world dev experience. The closing arguments are the best evidence of this. Truth is few people understand the nuances of what they are talking about and judging things not on the debate but how they “feel”

[@Whale15]

@@Sssanbo agreed. Anatoly didn’t have any businessman vibes. He just seems like a jolly dev. It’s an ethereum channel though so the comments are a little slanted.

[@chanwise]

I agree here. Just two different perspectives of what their chain is trying to achieve

[@pro-indicators]

Anatoly's claim that sell pressure isn't a cost is contentious, as it relies on the assumption that future cash flows will offset this through expanded capital markets. As a professional trader with 14+ years of experience, I can attest that this is totally misleading. Not to mention the inappropriate comparison with Apple stocks traded on the secondary markets. An accurate calculation cash flows accounts of net profits and losses, therefore counting for token emission (supply inflation). Unfortunately, Solana's negative cash flows (hundreds of millions in losses) offer no cash flow mechanism to support demand. While momentum strategies based on cash flows rate of change (ROC) which is a derivative, may provide short-term demand, they are not long-term investments discounted cash flow strategy which require to operate at a net profit. Thus, conflating these two concepts is risky.

[@BrianCanon]

No.

[@iffindorfin]

I'm in solana by 3 years so far and never used USDT... looool why should I? However very high and very stimulating conversation. Of course both of them shot some bullshit and made provocative statements, not everything should be taken literally. Thanks to the channel and to both of you for this discussion

[@JamesMullarneyIsAFraud]

So Im pretty happy with my portfolio being 50% BTC, 20% ETH, 20% SOL and 10% speculative punts. Both SOL and ETH have great futures.

[@Metacognition88]

Bad move bro. Go 100% balls deep in meme coins.

[@TripleDeano]

Soluna Boy is so disrespectful. Chuckling in others faces ETH guy weak arguments...lack detail. SOLuna is a meme coin arcade...when it is up..Fullstop

[@ryno_a]

What a great technical debate, love it. I truly believe user experience is the defining factor. From what I have seen personally in the last year is that non crypto people lean towards Solana dapps and wallets rather then L2 ETH. Just a observation that I made recently. I love both!!!

[@jeremyplante6698]

What I got out of this convo was Solana is innovative and looking to solve the "impossible" issues, and Ethereum is looking to get as big as possible and stuck in a certain mindset

[@omdangy]

@Bankless Can we get a round 2 now that solana has gained substantial network effect. would love to see these two go head to head given the last couple of months of development

[@doloressverko9887]

Based on 35 years of global IT experience, that includes consulting in +30 countries and living in 5 countries during my lifetime, there are not going to be just 3 level 1s. I say there will be 8 to 10. I love ICP, FIL, SOL, BTC & ETH. But look at reality, web 3.0 will replace Nasdaq infrastructure one day, perhaps. It will create market that don't exist today. Imagine Africam microinvestors banking on a Stamford engineering project. Layer 1s will evolve for different verticals and maybe different digital tribes. There may be an L1 one day for all Innovation that will free me up from the ridiculous costs of AWS, Azure, GCP. Any recommendations on an ICP killer? A FIL competitor?

[@tekkacimlo3902]

Shiba Inu as a synonym for quality was a funny and strange statement. LOL. Great interesting conversation. Really fair of Anatoly not to joke about Eth fees.

[@TPGodlike]

would be pretty dumb to joke about Eth fees considering that: Eth L1 fees as a settlement layer are the reason why Ethereum can be deflationary while Sol has to inflate at a whopping 5% per year to subsidize its Validators. Additionally L2 fees are allready cheaper than Solanas. Going into fees would have been suicide by Anatoly

[@raz6321]

​@@TPGodlike L2 fees are still not cheaper the sol fees, lol. There is also the bridge cost. I can't see a way for ETH to win this even with the sol inflation.

[@NateSD2222]

Round 2 please...could've listened for another 2 hours

[@r.v.9185]

Superb debate 👌 Absolutely deserves a part 2 in the future!

[@lherfel]

Awesome Episode one of the best excellent speakers excellent in the weeds discussion excellent moderation Love this much thanks

[@ArunKumar-kj2qh]

Papexnova has great potentials 🔥

[@AutonomousDecentralisation]

Solana is cheap, it's fast, it has massive adoption, the community love's it and it's built for both retail/companies. That is why I'm so bullish on Solana and so bearish on Ethereum. There is always an L2 built on Ethereum every year saying that it is going to change the game, when the fact is that these projects are super Centralised and thirsty for liquidity, it doesn't capture real value and creates friction for retail and companies. If you want to go after a solution to that problem the space already has better competitors such as Near, Polkadot, Cosmos or Celestia! Great stuff from Anatoly.

[@Haradeas]

ETH future proof. Sol : get shut down by gov next week once gov knows how easy it is to shut it down. I loved the discussion, but the disrespect and simply laughing away future problems by Anatoly Yakovenko is questionable. It reminds me on the story of the 2 squirls, 1 preparing for winter, 1 just enjoying its day without preparing for winter. So yeah, we all know how that ended.

[@ayeshausman9276]

Absolute Loving how Justine handles ETH critics! Anatoly seems to me a bit short-sighted about his SOL world. I don't think these should be compared and battled against each other. They are appealing to different user bases and solving different problems. That's like comparing pearls and potatoes. I did enjoyed this discussion though with a bit of frustration.. Thanks

[@peterkleynhans8056]

That is how an Engineer schools a Researcher. Solana stays king.

[@PriestXBT]

I dont understand you....why 1 should win. As an industry we should work together instead of trying to compete with everyone

[@geoms6263]

haha...the winner take it all

[@jurgenobersteiner8234]

@@geoms6263 thats what Solana James always said :)

[@reniercuervo8577]

it's not about winning the debate was more of a way of understanding each networks design and the caveats

[@soundman1233]

I was with the EOS tribe. That was the last of tribalism for me. May the best chain win!

[@unlimitedcosmicspeed]

Great point! So was I.

[@davycrockett8886]

No that's why you should know which tribes to support.

[@soundman1233]

​@@unlimitedcosmicspeedOG 😀! The fact that EOS failed means anyone could fail. But really, they should be ashamed of themselves for failing with that level of community support, the lack of competition at that point and that amount of money. Morons 😀.

[@acpjr]

Tribes in crypto form because of bag bias.

[@KylanHurt]

Same here. EOS was the biggest disappointment in crypto... Solana swooped in and gobbled up EOS's dinner.

[@tony57racing4]

ETH also has staking, how is it not the same for both?

[@blabberblabbing8935]

Total token supply for ETH is projected to decrease. For SOL to increase.

[@tony57racing4]

@@blabberblabbing8935 if used a lot then yes but it’s not.

[@matty2258]

There is no fourth best is so true, nice job for keeping the discussion honest and fair for both sides.

[@WikiTicky]

My Takes - How can that other dude not see that having "radio towers" is the same as a btc miner buying out a whole powerplant for a cost advantage - centralization. - Drake operates a relay... the other sounds like he memorized a brochure. - The other dude @57:09 "The goal of sol... is to solve these problems with hardware" - requiring specialized hardware - where else is that a problem? (history doesn't repeat itself but it does rhyme) - The ETH guy... if the hardware is there... blocktime is just a parameter we can change... so sol was gloating about future hardware not their own capabilities. - The other dude in denial... thinking consumer level access to a data center can compete in a world he's describing of ultra low latency (like his radio tower example earlier). - That sell pressure line... lol... - Ugh, the dude then makes the debate a moving target - I'm doubling down on the dude memorizing a brochure... - The debate is getting annoying now - I don't think that dude understands game-theory at all... That's the biggest red flag. Justin Drake demonstrated he's an actual researcher and the other dude sounded like an MBA - How? high level descriptions, dodges topics by moving to other topics, doesn't engage in technical examples just redirects to other adjacent comfort-zone examples like a salesman.

[@TeleportlabsETH]

I disagree with both, disagree with Justin on the L2narrative as L2s are not yet sufficiently decentralized. And I disagree with Solana as a whole as I do not believe Solana will ever be censorship resistant. If a govt grabs told by the balls he will make Solana kneel.

[@davycrockett8886]

Keep most of your value on Ethereum L1 and go play with a little on L2. L2s will be highly decentralised soon.

[@theonlyconstantischange123]

So what's the best chain?

[@FabienFabienB]

as a senior engineer with over 25 years experience in critical banking systems, and 5 years in blockchain, I am very sorry to whom this may offend, but gut feel tells me Toly is stronger, sounder, than Justin.... This is the truth. There is a sort of evil misplaced root in Ethereum which boils down mainly to the "trilemma" pushed by Vitalik and which Solana rightfully ignored. The scalability with L2s is so far almost like a disaster. Give it 2-3 more years and you will see. Toly came out much stronger in his defense of his chain. If you know, you know.

[@FabienFabienB]

That's where seniority shines. Toly is far more experienced than Justin in general.

[@TPGodlike]

you could have just said "i hold Solana bags" would have saved you some text. nobody without Solana bags can come out of this debate where Anatoly got murdered for 2 hours and intellectually outmatched thinking "Anatoly is sounder" i dont enough fingers on my Hands to count how often he had to obnoxiously laugh because he ran out of arguments

[@FabienFabienB]

Will need to listen one more time

[@equalscash9388]

Great discussion, absolutely love it!

[@prontomatias3081]

This was really good, i wish we had more enginnering discussions like this, with other blockchains also, was very good to understand the different strategies and concerns (time will tell who is more right), i like how you incentivized the start of discussion with the good parts.

[@whathappenedman3518]

Amazing discussion thank you guys for this

[@myzamau428]

Solana is a beta product at best. How many times have they had to shut it down compared to Ethereum?

[@KylanHurt]

Well I believe it even calls itself a beta so I don’t see the big deal. Didn’t ETH supporters say the same things about their chain during the DAO attack?

[@TommyBull2]

Over the last year? Once or twice.

[@ChrisDavis-gi3ty]

Dawg ETH has forked

[@TommyBull2]

It actually is in beta lol

[@Maf12300]

Same old argument. Just check % profit increase in your other L1s cs SOL. Fire Dancer. Done

[@dongmingyao6428]

an excellent insteresting discussion that is worth of a second time of watching. by the way i sense a bit odour of explosion between the two gentlemen. 😁 a good discussion ought be like this one.

[@CainOSullivan]

TVL is irrelevant... Arbitrum does having 3x the USDT than Solana, but 83% of that is Binance wallets.

[@fightforfreedom21]

I don’t understand why Anatoly and Solana are so much focused on creating a replica of the NASDAQ exchange but “partially” decentralized when the main use case for crypto is not for the majority of people to be traders and so to have the requirement to execute a trade within 120 ms 🤷‍♂️, most of the users would use the blockchain to do normal transactions with DApps and execute them within seconds not milliseconds. I understand there’s money and a big market on replacing the NASDAQ but it seems a very niche sector to focus with the risk to centralize things more considering you would need few big validators providers dislocated in the main cities. It seems to me Ethereum has a more long term vision and most importantly a global one hence the fact it’s a modular blockchain and not niche vision in a particular sector.

[@Sssanbo]

Amazing discussion . Anyone thinking someone came out on top here is silly unless they can debate at this level which are very few.

[@unid3ntifiedz]

Summary of the podcast: 1:02:18

[@swylie2010]

I'm actually stacked on Solana, loved it from day one. Never understood Ethereum's appeal....until L2s. I actually disagree with Toly. He's talking about one side of the matter. Ethereum is the other side. Ethereum is a mess, not what it intended to be in the light of Solana--but in that mess something got revealed that has value. Now its just a task to coordinate it. Not everything has to be superfast, although some part does need to be.

[@Mark-zb5iv]

Great episode, solid points on both sides. Tron being positively highlighted by Justin was odd.

[@BrianCanon]

Yeah, wtf. So bizarre that I wonder if he's trying to get guys to short ETH.

[@telotawa]

if sell pressure is not a cost, why not print 100%+ apy?

[@burkerider]

This was very interesting and I learned ETH essentially doesnt work without L2s. Why would I want to own ETH when I can own the L2? Sounds like all ETHs value is going to bleed over time to L2s and Solana. And what kind of security issues does L2 have in the future? L2 have admin keys! So ETH doesnt work without an L2 that has admin keys? WTF?!?

[@acpjr]

It's not that it doesn't work, it doesn't scale

[@rousseau327]

"Why would I want to own ETH when I can own the L2?" The hypothesis is the value accrual goes to ETH, between the fees paid, gas burned, asset security, monetary premium, etc. L2 tokens can surely gain value as well. "And what kind of security issues does L2 have in the future? L2 have admin keys!" Admin keys aren't a feature or requirement of L2s. The model right now is to start centralized to speed up development, and then decentralize down the line. Who knows if this works, but the security benefit to users here is the escape hatch to L1 should something go wrong. And again, Ethereum certainly doesn't need L2s with admin keys to function.

[@acpjr]

@@rousseau327 All networks started centralized. The model is to raise money from venture capitalists and it's not to "speed up development" it's to get development done at all! L2s are a business, and decentralizing just means token unlocking so the investors can make money by dumping on retail. We'll see if any L2 will have a diversity of node operators such that it's truly decentralized. But it's really just marketing.

[@rousseau327]

@@acpjr We're talking about adjacent things.

[@pinakigupta6442]

too much ego from the Eth guy. No wonder it feels like Eth is lagging at the moment.

[@AndrewM-ol1lm]

TVL and network effects don't matter? This Solana bro has no clue what he's talking about.

[@Carlos-bo9sc]

Thank you for the video! Could you do one for Solana vs NEAR?

[@feverpitchn5]

It's so nice to see an engineer thinking about this purely from a technology perspective. Toly has the correct focus imo.

[@0xVantwoutMaarten]

So great to see them both so passionate about it. I like the eth vision that demand scales with tech, that you can’t just take some scaling laws and expect demand to be the same that has never been like this. Also cool to see that Solana is building with such a practical tech approach. Eth for the win

[@cryptomeme69]

where Justin got so wrong about Stables on Solana and Ethereum is Solana mostly uses USDC, not USDT. That shows you how devs can be sometimes so removed from reality.

[@rousseau327]

Solana's supply of USDC is only about 6% of the total USDC supply. Better than USDT, but still not huge.

[@exserentia]

I'm not so sure Justin's right on all his points -- he wasn't successfully able to debate most of Anatoly's arguments. It doesn't make Toly right but mostly Justin does not seem to be understanding anatoly's POVs and countering them properly in this debate. He keeps defaulting back to "I don't think so, you're not right". Similarly unable to explain his points in this podcast with enough rigor for me to understand -- I'd like for him to cite the research or sources and present them properly. As a CS+Math trained engineer this was extremely interesting convo but fell short due to lack of depth in some of the points made.

[@pogi8638]

Great debate video Bankless. I hold both ETH and SOL and I believe they will both contribute to the crypto space in a good way.

[@middleclassinvesting]

Great debate 🎉

[@Korgolord]

Ethereum confirmation time - ~15 min, Justin Drake: "disrupt for 1 min - tens of billions $". I'm laughing

[@giviz]

+1 for round 2, that was a fun and interesting watch!

[@jessem1112]

Glad to see we're all on the same page

[@mrgidget5495]

Bankless is hitting home runs in providing insight into the future of blockchain tech to users. Great episode idea and bravo to the Bankless team. Encore!!

[@williammason9475]

This is an engineer who knows what he's talking about versus a researcher who loves to talk in theory