😭 Even SCOOPING Can’t Stop It (It’s the RULES)

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[@woodman_1799]

Thanks for this. I’ve had people “Nuh uh, it operates like sundial of the infinite” and scoop to ruin my combo during their turn

[@souleater4242564kodd]

The clapback is to apologize for running a Toxrill deck and slap yourself

[@ouplas]

We have a house ruling that says you can only forfeit at sorcery speed, unless an opponent goes infinite. Thanks for the clarifications on what happens with the turn, it's helpful.

[@souleater4242564kodd]

Thats a dumb houserule and you should feel bad, players have agency beyond your stupid card game and if they want to leave they leave Don't be a toxic dick

[@EfanSnyper]

so just to be sure if I'm playing feather and kill someone with burn, I will still get to resolve and return cards to my hand at endstep even if that player is out?

[@VeggieWagon]

Yes!

[@jonathancollins8951]

If they scooped on their turn, correct

[@Arrzarrina]

@@jonathancollins8951 Leaving the game procedure is consistent among all ways of leaving the game. Scooping, losing (and in limited range of influence games, winning and drawing) all just have the player leave the game. As mentioned in the video, it's rule 800.4a that describes the leaving the game procedure.

[@ethandavis2373]

Thanks for the help. I now know what my new mono black deck is

[@Apolloross0627]

Toxril is Dimir

[@ethandavis2373]

@@Apolloross0627 huh?

[@harleybaker4684]

@@ethandavis2373it’s effect has blue in its cost, making its color identity black/blue aka dmir

[@Apolloross0627]

@ethandavis2373 Its activated ability costs blue and black to activate, so Toxril is a dimir commander. Blue black is a nasty combo for decks, that's why Toxril is so good competitively

[@ruelsmith4627]

Blue black aka dimir

[@jasonwolfblood9441]

Now add this with a "lose the game" trigger

[@slamkam07]

"Dead player takes a turn" >video has nothing to do with taking turns after leaving the game. Incredible guys. I cant believe i was lied to on youtube.

[@souleater4242564kodd]

Its just so easy to farm engagement that I'm legit envious

[@noxiouslotus5760]

Lol my fav is when u exile everyone's commander to the shadow realm and then loose and leave with them. Job completed!

[@Virgil_Vincent]

Now I want to make a deck based on the end of a players life in the commander game, only to use the "leave the battlefield" effects to essentially run the deck over the top for killing the other players in order. Lots of additional combat cards and pumps on LTB triggers.. it's possible.

[@dapperghastmeowregard]

Man, not that my deck has much to take advantage of it, but completely forgot E&A triggers on EACH end step, so used to playing Honest Magic with like Rith or Astarion :P

[@exiledhero3791]

We use this surprisingly commonly at my LGS, so I thought you were about to say the whole turn still happens in future turn cycles when I saw toxrill as the background.

[@ScorpioneOrzion]

Nah that player also get the permanent effect "skip your turn", because they have left the game

[@CrunchBar-qe5fw]

This is why scooping at instant speed is fine

[@1420ify]

I won a game when my friend conceded prior to his turn starting with a toxrill out. Left dovin at -1/1, allowing me enoigh resources to lab man and demonic consultation, winning when i countered the removal

[@derelictdragon2550]

Rule 800.4h: "if a rule requires a player who has left the game to make a choice, the next player in turn order makes that choice." I'm confused, this isn't what your talking is it? Or am I misunderstanding?

[@VeggieWagon]

800.4j

[@derelictdragon2550]

@VeggieWagon ah that's it, gotcha

[@zavy69420]

TOXRILL MENTIONED 🙌

[@souleater4242564kodd]

Toxic player with zero skill spotted

[@crppledizzle9374]

​@@souleater4242564kodd boo fuckin hoo 😢

[@JoshuaPAMployee]

Okay but can we talk about how you can tell a None Black user named and gave it's type! That's clearly "Kevin, the Huggable" who's a "Legendary Slug Friend"!

[@moisesgarcia960]

Yeah I just played a commander game where two players tried getting rid of my niv. I was able to counter one, but not the other, but the guy was at 2 so I cast an instant that wouldn't do anything which caused niv to do 1 plus an additional from someone's enchantment trigger causing him to lose and the card removing my niv just disappeared

[@guyyoung4388]

I have seen so many people cheat when it comes to this ruling

[@tyrusconley]

How?

[@0011peace]

kind of depends on to [;ayer or not so when you quit 2 player everythung stops because it no longer matters

[@AeonKnigh432]

This is why you can scoop at instant speed

[@syrelian]

You scoop at any-time, not just Instant, you don't need priority, you don't need a turn, I think the only thing you're obligated to do before conceding is finish any currently resolving effects(but not any triggers or the rest of the stack etc)

[@AeonKnigh432]

@@syrelian Yeah, the term "scoop at instant speed" is just a running joke in my play group. It was kinda meant to be a comment that only I'd find funny lol

[@slamkam07]

​@samlewis6487 man it sure was super funny reading here.

[@TyrMckay]

Thats why i wont play against any deck with Toxrill in it. Though, ill happily slap it in my Atraxa, Proliferate group hug, and make it tick ten times in one turn.

[@TheWarden04]

If everybody scoops then nobody loses to Toxrill

[@halvsketchy9293]

If someone scoops to prevent people from getting something like lifelink damage or this, we wouldnt play with them

[@mathieu9613]

Don't think it's just to stop lifelink some if the games not fun concede

[@Badassest]

Graaaagh! Nyah. Mrfmrfr screee! Took a crazy long 1v1 game to defeat my friends Toxirill. Good bad card.

[@littlemrdoom5997]

So if i exile an opponent's commander with an O ring, they let it stay in exile because they have a nature's claim, and then i conceed in response to their removal on their turn. Does that mean their commander is permanently stuck in exile?

[@tyrusconley]

Their turn or not doesn’t matter. Technically yes though, although I’d expect most tables would allow them to put the commander into the command zone in this case because the scoops seems salty/spiteful.

[@anthonycannet1305]

Let’s see if I got it off the top of my head 1) all things that player owns leave the game with them and their spells and abilities are removed from the stack 2) any control effects end 3) any permanents still controlled by that player are exiled And lastly we pass through the steps and phases of their current turn to get any triggers or instants going (like if you were planning to cyclonic rift on their end step but they scooped before that) and any turns they would have taken after that don’t happen

[@syrelian]

Incorrect on the last point as I understand it, their permanents are not Exiled, they leave the game entirely, similar to a token dissolving, but without entering any zones in the process(they do LTB however)

[@anthonycannet1305]

@@syrelian first, everything that player owns leaves the game which is somewhat similar to how tokens stop existing. But what about the things they gained control of? They didn’t own those cards so they didn’t get exiled in step 1. Step 2 is any effects they had that allowed them to gain control of something ends, those things go back to their owners’ control. But what about things they stole without gaining control of? Like casting your opponents spells with gonti or sen triplets? There’s no “gain control” effect to end, so now those objects get exiled. That last step exiles the things that player did not own nor gained control of. If they owned it, step one would’ve exiled it. And if they gained control of it, step 2 would’ve returned it to the owner. Everything else gets exiled. So if I target you with sen triplets and cast some of your spells then concede, those things that I cast will go to exile

[@seandun7083]

800.4a: When a player leaves the game, all objects (see rule 109) owned by that player leave the game and any effects which give that player control of any objects or players end. Then, if that player controlled any objects on the stack not represented by cards, those objects cease to exist. Then, if there are any objects still controlled by that player, those objects are exiled. This is not a state-based action. It happens as soon as the player leaves the game. If the player who left the game had priority at the time they left, priority passes to the next player in turn order who's still in the game. Objects controlled by them leave and control effects end simultaneously. After that, abilities on the stack and spell copies cease to exist (I would assume that those are different due to abilities having a controller but not an owner) Then, remaining stuff they control is exiled. Then the turn continues.

[@anthonycannet1305]

@@seandun7083 yeah, exactly what I said…

[@crowcoregames1785]

if i leave the game and someone else has my 9 lives they also loose becuse magic =funny

[@Bathios13579]

same with lich's mastery

[@WarbossMorgorTeefsmasha]

best way to explain it is everything owned by that player phases out and cannot phase in wherever it is

[@ComicMeteor1913]

I am a new player and like vampires so i happened to pull this lil guy named toxrill and thought he was so cute. brought it up to my friends and everyone definitly felt some type of way about it😂 still doing it cuz i like the card a lot

[@souleater4242564kodd]

You deserve to have no friend grouo willing to play with you if you're running it and you'll blame everyone else but you for it

[@crppledizzle9374]

​@@souleater4242564kodd boo fuckin hoo 😢

[@Elivaknin.s]

People that scoop need to live with last body part

[@silentmayan5427]

Males sense, but I was afraid you were gonna say that their turn always happened, just they didn't do anything. So if 2 of the 4 dropped out then there would still be 4 triggers every trip around the table.

[@FatedHandJonathon]

So... Can the dead player still take actions during those phases? If not, who decides when they end?

[@PrincessPeriodFart]

Priority still passes as normal iirc, so the phases end when each player has passed their priority. And no, the dead player cannot take anymore actions.

[@fafdsfr]

The dead player doesn't take any actions on them, each phase ends when each living player in turn order passes priority when the stack is empty.

[@seandun7083]

The dead player will never receive priority.

[@captainkirkland3874]

Not if I forcibly remove all my cards they can’t

[@avgurikova580]

So, if you scoop on your turn... withengar unbound would get 13 +1/+1 counters. Then you could attack for lethal?

[@avgurikova580]

Oh wait permanents leave

[@avgurikova580]

Never-ending I'm an idiot

[@GJ203]

If I put counters on another player's permanent and then I scoop, they keep the counters, right?

[@tyrusconley]

Assuming you scoop after it resolves, yes. Some play groups might ignore it because of the social/feel bad ramifications though.

[@artanis101]

wait, does that mean the pandorica would be able to phase out a commander forever if you successfuly activated it before you die?

[@sarahbuck2506]

No, once the Pandorica player is gone, there is no longer an effect preventing that creature from phasing in. It will phase in normally at the beginning of their turn.

[@seandun7083]

If you Oblivion Ring a commander and they let it happen hoping to kill the ring, the command will be lost forever if you die before then since you won't be around to do the leaves the battlefield trigger.

[@alexfos-brown4215]

Wait a minute, are you telling me Phage can potentially kill everyone, I’m of course talking about phage plus endless whispers, give your opponent phage due to the end of turn death trigger, they die, would phage be exiled or just return back to the owner?

[@tyrusconley]

Saying of course you’re talking about this example is a bit wild. So somehow you’ve gotta play it from your hand then have it die. You will select an opponent to get it, which they will lose the game. Phage never dies so Endless Whispers doesn’t trigger. And I don’t believe Phage would return to your control.

[@alexfos-brown4215]

@@tyrusconley I never said Phage was the commander, I just wanna know the interaction because if you cast phage from your hand, sac it to any sac outlet in the game, the end of the turn she returns for her etb, they would lose, what would happen to phage after, so based off what you said she’ll just be a one shot trick, because I wanna do a beam town bullies deck hence endless whispers

[@tyrusconley]

@@alexfos-brown4215 I also never said Phage is the commander. I believe Phage would be exiled because the player that controlled the card is out of the game and Phage entered the battlefield from the graveyard rather than from being stolen from play. I’m always a bit confused by these interactions so I could easily be wrong though.

[@alexfos-brown4215]

@@tyrusconley I’m not arguing, it does make sense, but I guess it would fall under a different type of rules subject because this isn’t so much about losing the game but rather what happens if you give someone something and they die, because I feel like there’s a way to give them the trigger but also get phage back without the trigger, maybe homeward path

[@tyrusconley]

@@alexfos-brown4215 yeah homeward path while Phage’s lose the game trigger on the stack would work.

[@IsDefinitelyHuman]

There doesn't seem to be a counter for placing this Enchantment on yourself. If you still have to go through each step then when you die, shouldn't you then be revived with X life?

[@tyrusconley]

What enchantment? Why would you be revived? You died in your turn and can no longer do anything. The turn still needs to complete though.

[@FatedHandJonathon]

Several reasons that doesn't work: 1) When you lose the game, all your permanents cease to exist, including Curse of Vengeance. 2) When you die, all spells and abilities you control immediately vanish from the stack; this includes the triggered ability that would let you gain life. 3) Even if there was a way to gain life after losing the game, it wouldn't undo that fact that you lost. Once you've lost the game as a state-based action, that can't be undone, even if the cause of that loss is removed.

[@ErKaHaWe]

Whats with : i finish atraxa player in his/ her own turn BUT i alreasy have 9 poison. Will IT be a draw or Do i lose instead?

[@42grath]

The atraxa player died. Therefore, their permanents leave on whatever phase of the turn that was. So Atraxa will not be on the board to trigger on that player's End Step. This effect he is talking about is if a Toxrill player is still alive with Toxrill out and someone else dies. During the dead player's end step, the Toxrill player still gets to put slime counters on remaining opponents' creatures. Additionally, if creatures the dead player also died at the same time that player died, any death triggers for anything during their turn still occur.

[@ErKaHaWe]

@@42grath thanks for claryfication.

[@Lord_Dielon]

800.4j

[@Razdasoldier]

Can you help me. I am trying to understand why Teysa Opulent Olagarch triggers multiple times if you mass sac clues but not if you sac them one at a time.

[@sarahbuck2506]

It doesn't

[@Razdasoldier]

@sarahbuck2506 it does on the online platforms like Arena.

[@nathanlamberth7631]

That does not seem right. A trigger must be resolved by the player that played the card? Why? The card is enacting its trigger upon exiting play not the player.

[@VeggieWagon]

Not sure exactly what you mean, but the Toxrill trigger only happens if the Toxrill player is still in the game

[@nathanlamberth7631]

@@VeggieWagon I’m talking about Oblivion ring (kinda). Obviously, Oblivion ring can’t trigger, because the player it hopes to act on is dead. However, how it’s phased would allow another card to trigger in the same way, but target a still living player and work. Toxrill should only trigger for each monster if a monster that is exiled is considered having died.

[@VeggieWagon]

Ohhhhh I see what you mean. The Toxrill trigger that happens is the one that puts counters on, not the one that makes slugs (unless it kills creatures that still living players control)

[@matthewludivico1714]

Interesting

[@konas937]

This happened to me once in arena. I blocked lethal with a creature with lifelink, got put down to 0 and was brought back by lifelink

[@syrelian]

Thats not the same, thats due to how dying works, you don't lose when you hit 0 Life, you lose when you're at 0 life and nothing is actively resolving at exactly this moment, known as a State Based Action(eg an SBA occurs after each effect on the stack, but not while any effect is resolving) Lifelink doesn't use the stack, instead it modifies how combat damage is resolved

[@konas937]

@@syrelian oh cool thanks

[@elvincolon8340]

okay so ive only been playing magic for less than a year and i thought that was the most basic thing and most common sense thing ever so if people don't understand that if u die or leaves the game nothing can resolve for that player than idk what is on ur mind while ur playing tbh

[@syrelian]

You're focused on the wrong element here This is about the fact that if a player leaves the game on their own turn(by any means), while their board immediately vanishs, the Steps of the Turn still play out, everyone else still gets triggers and such from those steps, etc, eg if you have Toxrill here, you'd still get his end-step trigger because the leaving player's end-step is still resolved, this is done for a number of reasons, but the simplest one is so that "at the end of next turn" or similar still resolve

[@anthonymessenger7574]

Player scoop and a player dying are 2 different things.

[@syrelian]

Nope, if you lose the game you lose the game, losing by loss of Life is a State Based Action, but the resolution of that game loss occurs in exactly the same manner as if you lost the game by conceding

[@kingofbudokai]

And that is why I have only ever played commander exclusively with people who agree that nobody is allowed to scoop unless everyone agrees to do it at the same time (except the person who everyone acknowledges as the winner of course.) There is no reason to complicate the game for everyone else just because you feel like being a poor sport.

[@TsunamiTDMK]

I like this mindset. Move on to game 2 as a group

[@ryanhansen9779]

I agree, because the last two times a player has disconnected-scoop online or at instant speed on my turn were deliberately stopping my Bident or Toski card draw

[@vjakx6590]

Does anyone else agree this thing is more annoying when its in the 99 and not the commander

[@slamkam07]

No shit youll get your elenda trigger. That trigger has nothing to do with any other player but yourself why tf woulsnt it work just because someone else left?

[@tankingkinga.ka.re5megamon909]

because most people don't realize there is an end step even for a scooped player, this not knowing you can still pay 4 during the dead player's turn. maybe dont be toxic like toxrill 😊

[@TDMicrodork]

Good thing the rules are only suggestions

[@flaminggorilla909]

You can't scoop at instant speed. You HAVE to scoop on your turn.

[@tyrusconley]

No you can definitely scoop at instant speed.

[@seandun7083]

You don't even need to have priority to scoop. You can scoop between stuff phasing in and stuff untapping during someone's draw step if you want to.

[@Sadisticways6453]

Look at you so boldly wrong but wrong none the less.

[@magusofthebargain]

When a player leaves the game (rage quit), end the turn. remove all spells and abilities from the stack and go straight to the end step.

[@VeggieWagon]

this is not how the game works

[@magusofthebargain]

@@VeggieWagon 104.3a A player can concede the game at any time. A player who concedes leaves the game immediately. That player loses the game.

[@magusofthebargain]

@@VeggieWagon 800.4a When a player leaves the game, all objects (see rule 109) owned by that player leave the game and any effects which give that player control of any objects or players end. Then, if that player controlled any objects on the stack not represented by cards, those objects cease to exist. Then, if there are any objects still controlled by that player, those objects are exiled. This is not a state-based action. It happens as soon as the player leaves the game. If the player who left the game had priority at the time he or she left, priority passes to the next player in turn order who’s still in the game.

[@VeggieWagon]

ok...read the rest of 800.4. 800.4j explains that the turn does not end immediately, and your own citation clarifies that the stack is not emptied, only the objects controlled by the losing player are removed

[@magusofthebargain]

@@VeggieWagon ah thanks, that makes sense. Multiplayer rules are more complex than 1v1. We wouldn't want to have a rule where a player could concede and remove another player's spell from the stack!!

[@FairyTaleGamingOfficial]

Our house rule actually stops this for reasons like this. Lol If someone scoops on their turn, the turn never happened, and we roll back to the state of the previous player's turn.

[@syrelian]

Cool, try doing that after your players have resolved a bunch of deck search/manipulation effects on the conceding player's turn

[@dertodesknopf9658]

Great videos. Some stupid ideas/bad cards for Commander I would like to see you try: 1."Atogatog" (Maybe with changelings?) 2.Land-Tron (I used "Arixmethes" only as a land and buffed it with cards like "Fertile Ground" and "Darksteel Garrison". Used cards like "New Frontiers" to give people lands and get on their good side, just to use stax like "Winter Orb" later. I mean who needs more than one land anyway? "Voyaging Satyr" to untap our MEGALAND 😅. Teferi's Response is a really good removal, if they try to kill your "landcommander". Would like to see your take on this idea.) 3."Skeleton Ship" the best art in Mtg (Skeletons riding turtles... sadly very much trash😢) 4."Karona, False God" + "Jeska, Thrice Reborn" (+ "Vow of Flight" for safety) Give you friends a nuke, why not? 5."Kruphix, God of Horizons Manadeathstar" But try to put "Drain Power" and "Pygmy Hippo" into the deck.

[@joshuajacobyap6222]

Do you mean only on the turn they die/ scoops all every turn cycle? And you mention alot of "rage quits on their own turn", what if I scoop on an opponent's turn?

[@tyrusconley]

It only applies on the turn a player scoops and only if that player scoops on their own turn.

[@joshuajacobyap6222]

@@tyrusconley I see, thanks

[@tyrusconley]

@@joshuajacobyap6222 you’re welcome

[@iamnotyourenemy]

In my younger days I used to concede to drain life just to deny lifegain. Not proud of it now but I thought I was a genius back then.

[@gewinner5379]

Also a thing our playgroup played wrong since forever is that if someone dies while being the monarch, the next person in turn order (I think) gets the monarch. We just assumed the Monarch was lost to void, if there was no combat damage involved

[@seandun7083]

If it's another players turn, then that player gets the monarch. If it's the monarch's turn, then it goes to the next person.

[@Rundvelt]

I don't understand. So, if the player loses after a board state check and is dead, the permanents he/she owns are gone. Yet, somehow the Toxrill will still hit it's end step?

[@tyrusconley]

The Toxrill is owned by someone other than the player that lost. Because the rest of the turn is observed, the effect still happens.

[@hawkeye399]

If im actually reading the rules right: 800.4a states that a player that leaves the game exiles all objects and anything on the stack AS SOON as they leave the game. It states that it's not even a state-based action, it just happens immediately. Additionally, rule 800.4d states "If a triggered ability that would be controlled by a player who has left the game would be put onto the stack, it isn't put on the stack." The turn does continue, but that doesn't mean that the player still gets triggers or effect resolution. Edit: Misunderstood and re-watched the video. I understand now. Yeah, it checks out lol

[@cno733]

I don't think toxrill would add additional counters, just that the end step would technically still happen. 🤔

[@tyrusconley]

Why wouldn’t Toxrill add counters when the end step still happens, it’s in the battlefield so it will trigger.

[@cno733]

@tyrusconley this is in the theoretical situation where your opponent who controls toxrill is conceding the game during their turn; meaning that their toxrill has left the battlefield and is gone before the end step. that means it won't trigger. the rule he's trying to explain is that when that happens, that turn still has an end step that other players can use. I don't think that he's correct that you can use your opponent's cards after they've already conceded the game. You can only use the end step in that final turn that they took. However, none of their cards should exist at that point. Am i missing something?

[@tyrusconley]

@@cno733 yes, you’re missing a huge point. In this example, the opponent who conceded is not the player who owned Toxrill.