Every Vision in The House of the Undying - ASOIAF Theories

[@stevendorries]

1:30 psychedelics start 4:00 roundup begins - brought to you by the fine folks at Bayer 7:30 Zac starts cooking 7:57 I vote in the affirmative 8:47 what is a mouse but a small rat? 9:15 second vision 10:11 if it’s the red wedding that’s a bit on the nose 14:22 spoilers 15:47 spoilers end 21:05 Tom sings 21:15 Ed says lots of things 22:15 third vision 25:15 DBZ:A mentioned 26:41 what do you get Superman for his birthday? 28:10 it’s a pitcher plant, a huge pitcher plant 28:30 Zac’s crack 31:15 I’m not watching 34:22 vision four 35:01 Drogon has happy tail 52:40 vision five 1:02:30 there was an SG-1 episode loosely based on that premise, and a Futurama episode too 1:21:09 it would be a large empty warehouse with a sad looking Oompah Loompa in the corner with a small AI generated tapestry behind her 1:28:10 the movie is bonkers 1:30:49 Tangled is a loose retelling of the Rapunzel story staring Mandy Moore, I highly recommend you watch it 1:38:17 it’s pretty obvious that Dany has two moms and a dad, her mtDNA is different than her maternal nuclear DNA 1:49:12 John Brown did nothing wrong 2:20:17 the suicidal Q, think Tom. Think!

[@SteveOnTheEastCoast]

Thank you, ser.

[@saranonimus9211]

I'm with Michael about the wolf-headed king...Robb had no connection with Dany and no reason to appeal to her at any point, whereas Jon does have a connection to her (even if he doesn't yet know it, unless you count a relationship with Aemon), and in the course of future events, he will have reason to need her help. Also, it would make a ton of sense for GRRM to set us up to misinterpret prophecy, just like the characters do, so the fact that it looks so Red Wedding to us may be the best piece of evidence that it's not that. Fools!! 😂

[@pyramidion5911]

Heres my two cents based on the books and a lot of speculation. The scene we see is what happened at hardhome with Gromm the wolf. From the sounds of it gromm was quite progressive for the world he was living in and someone or several people betrayed him. I suspect a red wedding type of event took place and everyone was slaughtered or taken prisoner by the CotF. The lambs leg that he is holding as a scepter seems to hint at a connection to the sheep herders of Valyria but more likely, the sheep are being fed to other creatures as some type of blood magic used to bind creatures (see Nettles). So the lambs leg to me seems to suggest a connection to the CotF who seem to be the originators of this magic, or it may even mean Gromm had a dragon... or both. Also, the wolf+dragon visions suggest that Danny is the blue rose and most likely the daughter of a Stark and a Targ. Edit: the lambs leg scepter also suggests that this ability or tool is the key to his power/rule.

[@chables74]

Mirri doesn’t even do anything against Daenerys after the march; she tried to save Drogos life the only way possible at that point, but his mind was already mostly horse. As for the baby, her instructions were ignored again; Jorah killed the baby. She gets killed for telling Dani she isn’t sad for her because things worked out for the best for everyone besides Dani.

[@pyramidion5911]

Mirri was trying to perform the blood ritual but keep the dragons for herself (and Marwyn). Fate had other plans.

[@hermithefrog629]

We really have no idea what she was doing. Whether the baby was always malformed or Drogo would always be a vegetable or not we don't know. Jorah compromised the spell by bringing Dany into the tent. He even apologizes for it, but Dany shifts the blame to Mirri. We all interpret Mirri as either this vengeful force or as essentially fate's catspaw, and sometimes Marwin's. But really she could very well have been trying to loyally heal Drogo, and her method may have worked. Take the poultice she have drogo initially. It was ineffective because the patient did not follow instructions. Yes the doctor probably should have picked a less irritating bandage, but ultimately the doctor cannot do everything. Drogo ignores Mirri's advice, and Jorah does as well. It's almost foreshadowing.

[@VaporsUnion]

Just wanna remind everyone that Crazy Dany was entirely a D&D invention for the show. By season 5 they had stopped consulting GRRM altogether and decided to make shit up for how they believed the story should end. And Dany dying or burning King's Landing was never mentioned by GRRM in any of the notes that he handed them in the development process. Furthermore, the original outline for the books states that 5 central characters would live to see the series through to its end. Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Bran, and Arya. I couldn't find a single interview or blog post from GRRM that would indicate he has changed his mind on that specific part of the series outline. So, any fan theories that Dany will go crazy, burn King's landing, betray Jon, betray her ideals of liberation, etc should all be discarded, if not taken with a dump truck of salt. Editing this to say that the only 3 spoilers for the books that GRRM EVER gave to D&D was Stannis burning his daughter, Hodor's origin, and Bran becomes king. That means that any of the other fan theories which GRRM would have had to give D&D during the development of the show- theories like crazy Dany, Dany dies, R+L=J, etc- still remain not only unconfirmed but highly unlikely.

[@ingolfringolfrson1577]

Can I borrow some of that copium?

[@markf5220]

He also gave them Jon Snow's parents, but before they caught up to the books. GRRM and D&D all spoke to each other before the series began about who Jon's mother was

[@pyramidion5911]

​@@ingolfringolfrson1577you show watchers are the ones coping, it takes a lot of effort to convince yourself that the show ending will be anything like the book.

[@pyramidion5911]

​@@markf5220Grrm never gave them anything about Jons parents. He asked them who he they thought it was before production started and he found their answer to be acceptable. He never confirmed their theory or expanded on it.

[@markf5220]

@pyramidion5911 Yeah, but it was obviously to see if they really understood the narrative thrust and foreshadowing he's signalled since book 1. He mentioned he'd asked that question to people who wanted to adapt the show before D&D, and the answers helped disqualify those people as unfit to adapt the material. If they said Ashara Dayne, he would've known they bit on the red herring, or if they had a more outlandish theory that they couldn't be trusted to be faithful

[@KaritKtana]

34:42 - Wow it never occurred to me that Drogon is riding Dany here! She is his mount. Interesting reversal

[@bigfq]

Ahh, the old Tyrioshi Maru, classic gambit.

[@JPanettieri]

Theon's dream is from when he is the Prince of Winterfell, before the Bolton's take the castle. He's feeling guilty about betraying the Starks.

[@sylvielaufeydottir2812]

Instead of putting this on when I get home I’m gonna use it to get thru the last 2.5 hours of my work day. But before I start just let me put this right here: Rhaegar is Dany’s dad!… I feel like he looks right at her when he says “the dragon has 3 heads”. This is where the R + L = D rabbit hole started for me.

[@pyramidion5911]

I'm on my 3rd reread and I agree 1000%

[@kahare9565]

The thing that always niggled for me was just that Raegar expected a girl.

[@noob-smoke92]

I think it has to do with Ashara Dayne being present in the room, and Rhaegar talking to Ashara, and since her and Dany’s eyes are compared to be similar by Barristan in his POVs, it is like Dany sees through Ashara’s eyes.

[@chasemaynard6318]

I dont love her argument but Meera is totally correct that Mirri was trying to help Drogo. I dont even think she fucked up the baby on purpose. Its said more than once in the text that Maesters and other healers use their ability to ingraitiate themselves to whoever they want to subvert/spy on. She definitely had her own designs, probably to take the dragons like others have said, but the healing was geniunely attempted.

[@Elliot226]

And I fully agree with Meera about Drogo causing his own death, not Mirri. I think the point of that story is to show that Dany is a hypocrite. That for all her grandstanding about freeing slaves and all that, she still doesn't really get it. Like Meera said, Mirri couldn't betray Dany, she was her slave. And where Dany could have learned so much from that most real and raw verbal smackdown Mirri gave her near the end (when she says she'd already been raped half a dozen times and watched her village be slaughtered and Dany expects her to be grateful she made her HER slave), Dany turns around and is hateful to the point of burning Mirri alive. Yes, I do think it was necessary for the blood sacrifice magic to get the dragons, but that doesn't make it right and Dany didn't know that. She did it out of spite and absolute hatred (and honestly paranoia because she thinks Mirri did some juju), just like Aerys did when he was king. I think GRRM was showing that from the outset that potential of cruelty and evil is within Dany as well. I won't say madness because I don't think that's what's going to happen, but I've never seen her as some kind and loving leader, she is blood and fire. She listens only when she wants to and disregards or kills those that oppose her and she thinks that makes her right and just. It also makes a good parallel and potential hint that Rhaegar is her father later on because he was also obsessed with (but totally wrong about) the Prince that was promised prophecy. Now Dany has the same thing going on with her three betrayals prophecy and she's always wrong and if she doesn't let it go it may destroy her like it did Rhaegar. Aerys was just paranoid and crazy, from what we know he wasn't obsessed with any kind of prophecy, he just had people like Varys making him even more crazy by lying to him about the people in the kingdom.

[@lordxelizor]

The “spoilers done” was really helpful

[@Pepsiman1848]

1:35:55 the undying ones are dead? So they are dead… and may never die? What is dead may never die? The undying ones are greyjoys confirmed?

[@samuelcerullo9913]

1:39:22 this is taking things to literally but what if the mount to dread is a mount others dread being drogon

[@viniciusvyller9458]

1:05:45 Euron: "A new god shall rise from the graves and charnel pits". And speaking of Moria, since we know LOTR magic is a great inspiration for ASOIAF magic, what else lurks there? The Nameless Things that gnaw at the roots of the world that Gandalf encounters when fighting the Balrog. Which burrowing wormlike creatures also lived in a place that met it's end through greed and flame? Firewyrms of Valyria. We know weirwoods are inspired by Yggdrasil from norse myth, and what lays gnawing on it's roots underground? A dragon, nidhoggr. I don't know where all of this could lead, but the implications are very interesting, to say the least.

[@everettreynolds5167]

The entire INC channel is the beast that is trying to keep dany there. Specifically this video

[@cbob213]

This episode was great 👍🏻 Love the varied discussion and different takes everyone had.

[@Holly_Fae]

The HOTU, Hotel California, Blood Raven's cave and the night fort are all entrances to the underworld.

[@Hanklerfishies]

having both Michael and meera on was great!

[@samuelcerullo9913]

1:35:10 the table is the most prominent thing since other wise it would not have been the first thing mentioned

[@KaritKtana]

I'm fairly at the beginning, but really interesting thoughts!! What's weirdest to me about the first vision is that it kind of becomes literal during Joffrey's wedding, with the dwarfs coming out dressed in mockery of the other kings. That's kinda more nuts than just having the vision remain a trippy metaphor imo! I still think the wolf headed king is foreshadowing the red wedding because it's something that appears in other people's visions all over the world, since it is such a monumental occurrence.. sending ripples through time and space. But I suppose that's not mutually exclusive with the other amazing takes from the panel! I totally forgot about all this corpse feasting... Geez, George. Keep in mind though there's nothing that binds all her visions solidly into one timeline or other - they're not ALL past events, as the warlock tells Dany before she enters, the visions could be many things that either did happen, will happen, might happen, etc.

[@everettreynolds5167]

Anyone still not watching this In 2050?

[@IntermissionForBunny]

My surface-level brainlet interpretation of the passage where Dany senses something "following" her as the torches go out: Whatever this is represents fear, and what does someone like Dany have to fear? The answer is: what she's destined to become. We know George likes to invoke Lovecraft, and Lovecraft's most common source of horror and dread was the realization of something dark and sinister lurking in a character's bloodline, waiting to emerge. For Daenerys, that's the Targaryen madness, her capacity for destruction, her destiny as a mass killer. The thing that follows in the dark is fate

[@jclaburn]

It’s been so long since I read it, but I get strong overtones of Poe’s ‘Fall of the House of Usher’ for the entire House of the Undying chapter.

[@Pepsiman1848]

The wolf-headed king is Sandor clegane, who is crowned shortly after Cleganebowl, and the feast is a metaphor for what will happen if he doesn’t get his chickens

[@kahare9565]

Another thing that could indicate this is not Raegar is that the child is newborn, just being named. Elia had such a hard time being pregnant that she was told by presumably quite sexist maesters not to have more kids. Maybe Raegar is just a jerk but to say ‘oh I need one more kid’ after Elia probably had a rough birth is really bad. Aerion could have had a vision too, of Aegon I conquering Westeros, ‘what better name for a king’.

[@Semeiotike]

1:47:07 Daenerys was like 13 years old. She likely really thought that she was helping and protecting Mirri.

[@everettreynolds5167]

I love this video

[@azlanx]

Blacked out on the Percocet, woke up surrounded my eunuchs

[@jclaburn]

Dany’s vision of the feast is what spoiled for me that Robb would be killed at Edmure’s wedding, so it’s definitely a vision of the Red Wedding. But George likes to do key plot points in multiple versions, often three times. So it could also be a vision of Theon-Robb’s shared dream of the feast of the dead and a symbolic vision of actions that Jon will take as king involving the Others and wights. Along this line, I have very complex arguments that the Others are ghosts of Starks (like barrow-wights in Tolkien), essentially permanent shadow babies of a Night’s Queen that hold the spirit of a dead Stark in a second unlife empowered by their powerful skinchanging abilities, the crypts of Winterfell, and an ancient fey pact made by the Starks to become the Kings of Winter. -A Theory of Ice & Fire discussion space on quora

[@acg3934]

Can't watch yet but so hyped

[@VAL420]

TIL that Stardust was written by Neil Gaiman...

[@VAL420]

And, apparently, also Cotton Eye Joe!

[@WinterTor]

So far I’ve just read the title, this is gonna be long and convoluted as fuck isn’t it?

[@chables74]

The corpse on a ship smiling sadly sounds like Theon (who is sailing up the coast toward Winterfell at that point) than Euron, to me

[@KaritKtana]

Where did the text mention Dany's accent?? Though the parallel between Myrcella's boat journey and - possibly - little Dany's journey to North and then South... That blew my mind!!

[@everettreynolds5167]

The heart is definitely huge

[@NightDweller]

Would Dany even know what weirwood is?

[@Rougarou99]

I’m surprised no one went one step further and made a Daenerys Targaryen/Danny Torrance connection. Both have prophetic dreams and keep having visions of a door. Also, who would be the best ASOIAF that Jack Nocholson could play? Exactly, Jorah.

[@InterestingNerdClub]

I thought of the Danny Targaryen connection about ten minutes after the recording!!

[@Rougarou99]

@@InterestingNerdClub Now if only we can find the Randall Flagg of ASOIAF...

[@chasemaynard6318]

​@@Rougarou99Euron might be it

[@chables74]

I’ve seen a lot of first series Dragon Ball, but my experience with Z is exclusively TFS Abridged, and I am just fine with that as my canon.

[@MeeraReads]

Same lol

[@jacksavere6988]

28:39 The No End House!

[@parastroika2393]

If R+L=D its not a giant leap to think that Daenerys spent the first few years of her life in Dorne. The Tower of Joy is somewhere in the NW of Dorne and not far from Starfall or High Hermitage, the latter of which is the enigmatic House with the Red Door in my head-canon. I think it's obvious that Dany's childhood memories are a compilation of genuine but fractured events that she is viewing through the narrative Viserys told her. One event we know happened but not WHEN was the death of Edric Dayne's father. If Dany was being hid somewhere in the Red Mountains under the protection of the Lord of Starfall it would make sense that there would be a lot of drama when the people looking after her lost their guaranteed benefactor.

[@JarvTheGreat]

I like Michaels interpretation of the slave-undying relationship to Dany, but I see it a bit differently... Mereen and Danny's people in Slaver's Bay want to keep her there, just as the Undying do... they both want to keep her from her destiny Mereen is a fairly grim place overall... it's kind of way past reform, but the people there are used to it. The warlocks and Undying mirror that as well.

[@junewalker9341]

19:50 like alebelly

[@jaystoesz]

Is Michael the Exploring Series guy?

[@juliezwick8930]

I was looking away from my phone at 32:00. I was not watching!

[@rosstemby1347]

Say it before the video zach! Nice democracy! Where do you put the battery?

[@jaredbrady5566]

Loved this vid, needed more time on the Stone Beast though IMO.

[@pyramidion5911]

Drogon= Khal Drogo (Black flame symbolizes the posioned Khal) Mirri Maz dur= Rhaegal ( green flame symbolizes CotF) Baby drogo= Viserion (Gold flame symbolizes his purity/innocence and true dragon blood)

[@junewalker9341]

I don't think making mirri into some king killing mastermind for ? reasons is compelling writing. The way it's given in the text is way more interesting. She's a human, who has human reasons for her actions but those actions have big consequences. That's very grrm

[@InterestingNerdClub]

This is a very good counterargument that's hard to dispute. However, I do like fictional masterminds, so I'm going to hold on to it. Though, perhaps somewhat less strongly lmao

[@addisonhamilton3382]

man im not gonna have time to watch all this before the live stream ://

[@brandonbeck6117]

Zack should say it now

[@angelajansons9037]

Hotel California!!

[@russwilliams4464]

Great video and some really interesting new takes. Serious question though…. Who did Valyrians worship? Who were their gods? A couple of obscure references are made in the books to individual gods, but otherwise we know zero about them. Such a massive hole that no one talks about. Anyways, love you. Bye

[@Lespritdelescali]

From what we have been told the Valyrians didn't have an official or standard religion and families kind of practiced whatever made sense to them - a mixture of all of the various religions that have been mentioned throughout the series and worldbook. They had their own ancient gods, the gods of people they had conquered, and probably a bunch of other eastern religions that may or may not still exist. We have no reason to believe they practiced state wide "translation" like the Greeks and Romans did - where they would recognise gods from neighbors and conquered peoples but reorient them as analogs of the official state patheon. It's likely they did practice indigenization, where all of these borrowed religions and gods were reworked to suit Valyrian cultural values in general, but it was much more ad hoc and on a cult by cult basis.

[@babakhanoushii]

1:53:01

[@bobmcbob9856]

The use of the phrase “conquered death” is interesting to me. Probably totally coincidental but in Orthodox Christianity, conquering or defeating death is the main thing Jesus does on the cross. Unlike the Catholic perception where Jesus’ main deed on the cross that saves people is him taking our place in a criminal punishment that humanity otherwise deserves, Orthodox Christians believe the main thing Jesus does is defeat death, thus showing humanity that eternal life is available through a relationship with the one true source of life, God, which he is in human form. I wonder if there’s any Jesus connections here or if it’s totally a coincidence

[@HighFantasyChannel]

LETS GOOOOO

[@VaporsUnion]

Everyone thinks the blue flower is a symbol of Jon Snow's parentage. But why would Dany be shown visions of something personal to Jon Snow? What if R + L = D? What if Wylla really is Jon's mother. We were in Ned's head through out the first book. If he knew Jon's parentage then we would have been exposed to it. GRRM avoids writing from the perspective of characters who know too much. And during Ned's conversation with Robert about Jon's mother, when he suggests Wylla is Jon's mother, Ned doesn't deny it. He doesn't even have an internal monologue about it. This suggests that Robert's guess is true. Furthermore, Edric Dayne tells Arya that he knows Wylla is Jon's mother. A Dornish woman, possibly of house Dayne, is Jon's mother. And what if Dany and Jon were swapped after the Tower of Joy? Dany is sent to Dorne where she could be passed off as Wylla's child, a Dayne, while Ned's own bastard is brought back with him to Winterfell. Why? Because Dany is the prince(ss) that was promised. And she would not be safe anywhere else due to the rebellion. But if people thought she was a Dayne/Stark bastard, then there could be a chance for her survival. But The Martells caught wind that Dany was in Dorne and intercepted the swap. Perhaps Ashara never committed suicide. Perhaps she was murdered by one of Doran's agents (Willem Dary?) because she was the only Dayne aware that a swap was even occurring. As far as Ned knows, he thinks the swap was a success. He thinks that Dany, the daughter of Lyanna, is living life as a Dayne. But she's really been living life as a Targ due to the Martell interception. Then Dany, after being intercepted, is sent with Willem Dary and Viserys to a Dornish consulate in Braavos. That explains the lemon tree and red door. As Dany grows up she is given a fake background, which Viserys is told to instill in her as a condition which is part of the secret wedding pact to Arianne and Dornish support to retake the throne. That would explain why Viserys is so mean and abusive to Dany, as well as willing to marry her off to a Dothraki Khal. Aerys and Rhaella had a stillborn, common among Targs. But due to the chaos of the stillborn's birth in the midst of the rebellion, it's quite possible that anyone who would have known are dead or lost. And so, Viserys could easily convince Dany and the world that she is the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella. Jon Snow is introduced as 14 in AGOT. Dany is introduced as 13, but turns 14 in the same book. But what if Dany's birth date has been altered? Dany was shown a blue flower in the visions as a hint towards HER parentage. Jon's parentage, being a the ACTUAL Stark/DAYNE bastard, will be revealed to him by Arya in Winds of Winter, but then confirmed by Howland Reed in A Dream of Spring. I believe the sword Dawn is much more important than fans think, and Jon will need to wield it. Don't ask me what I smoked to craft this theory.

[@Elliot226]

I think the vision (about Rhaegar) is quite off base from the jump because the whole Targ prophecy/vision thing was made up for the show. It's not in GRRM's books, so it would have no bearing on the vision Dany saw. Unless Glimbus lied to all of us again, but I'm pretty sure he was legit irritated they added that into the show lore (and also it wasn't about a horse, so probably a serious issue he took with their "creative liberties") Also I thought it was only ever confirmed that D&D correctly guessed Jon's MOM. Not both parents. And that GRRM himself has never explicitly said they got it right. He just found the answer acceptable to give them rights to the show. Which yes, gives great weight they were right about his mom at the time. But it's fascinating GRRM has never actually said they were right, giving himself an out. Now if someone can source something that says different, I'll change my mind. But until then I think Rhaegar is Dany's dad, and not Jon's father (because - unless someone can has a source - we have zero confirmation R+L actually = J is true besides D&D putting it in the show. They named Jon "Aegon" for crying out loud, I do not believe in them). But I do believe it's most likely Lyanna is Jon's mom, but I'm not gonna be mad if it's not her.

[@AlaricXIII]

It's obviously faux-jen.

[@l.4165]

Say it now

[@InterestingNerdClub]

It now

[@sylvielaufeydottir2812]

I hate when ppl say things about Jon & Dany be in love. Jon and Dany to this point don’t even know each other! Stop referencing season 8 of the show as evidence

[@CloudyDaOFFICAL]

Hello

[@MrSilvUr]

Still not watching.

[@blacksnail]

Rabbies.

[@QperG]

Uhhh uhh uhmm okay uhhhhh uh ummm uhh and uhh uh uhm

[@JPanettieri]

Guys, stop needing to move along and change the subject when Meera is talking, you've done it at least twice that I have noticed in this video. Men interrupt women ALL THE TIME, let's please deconstruct our own patriarchy and let women speak, you need to consciously make the effort because the male entitlement is deeply, subconsciously engrained. Thanks.

[@JPanettieri]

Also, Mirri definitely didn't kill Drogo, if anything she possibly, basically, killed baby Hitler? By killing Rhaego? Idk, that's sort of how I interpret it, if she's there for a reason, if she's working with Marwyn, she prevented the Stallion Who Mounts the World from slaughtering everyone, right? Isn't that the big moral time travel conundrum, like would you kill baby Hitler to prevent the Holocaust? That's what I think Mirri is doing, but some larger power manages to make contact with Dany and shows her how to hatch the dragons, thereby bringing about the events she was trying to prevent. Because, prophecy.

[@Augusto_Pinochet]

Wow. Your own misogyny is showing. Your words signal that you believe that the only way a woman can speak is if men allow it. Truly disgusting. Maybe think before you speak (or type), bigot. Do better.

[@Augusto_Pinochet]

Wow so you believe the only way a woman can speak is if a man allows it? That’s incredibly bigoted. Do better.

[@Augusto_Pinochet]

Patriarchy lol They invited her on. Much patriarchy. Much oppression.

[@JPanettieri]

@@Augusto_Pinochet that one got you in the feelings, huh?

[@kaizen9406]

Mirri Maz Duur killed the stallion who mounts the world in the womb changing Planetos history and aborting prophecy