Everything is Fine in the Game Industry!!! | Dropped Frames Episode 336

[@rhylerh]

Nothing against the normal crew as I love you guys but man, Rami always elevates the show and provides a wealth of transcendent knowledge as only he can. I'm only halfway through and man, he is so intelligent and insightful. Truly a class act and easily the best guest. It's a privilege whenever he's on.

[@olevam1]

Yeah Rami is amazing

[@AetiusUS]

No kidding, talk about a brilliant individual.

[@nokturnallex2160]

I don't even play D&D outside of CRPGs but that press release of "You're going to hear people say that they won and we lost, those people will only be half-right, they won and so did we." Is one of the most petty and pathetic PR statements I've ever heard.

[@warriorfight111]

49:02 - okay, assume the vast capital difference between Microsoft and Sony was smaller or non-existent (if you didn't know, it is MASSIVE), does Sony view Playstation, and gaming, as a fundamental pillar to their long-term corporate success? They have interests in many, many industries. Whereas Microsoft is really only in the domain of software (including corporate logistics for others), technology (fits and starts like phones and such), and gaming. And then there's the culture difference, whether that factors into this or not I don't know but there are clearly different attitudes towards business just broadly between Japan and the US. I agree that less and less competition is a scary and very negative thing, and I imagine it grows so large that it sort of collapses under its own weight at some point because usually that happens so I don't know what level of long-term fear is merited outside the immediate fallout of that, but what are the other big boys doing? Amazon has the capital to properly invest in gaming (their problem seems to be incompetence but who knows maybe they can get on course), and Apple as well. Then you have Tencent, etc. It's not just that Microsoft is going big and clearly sees gaming as pivotal to their long-term prospects as a corporation, but that other corporations are either in the biz and incompetent (Amazon), or seemingly disinterested in the industry at all (Apple). That is an issue, and while it is very, very unideal to be speaking of competition as coming from other mega-giants, it is still preferable. The point is that while this is a really shocking episode in recent memory, I don't think the situation is nearly as dire as it is being made out to be. Indie devs can still get funding out of 505, Annapurna, Focus, Paradox, and there are constantly others and smaller funds and such that back them, and in the meantime for AAA Ubisoft is still kicking (incompetently but still), EA is doing well, Take-Two seems insulated (even though 2K minus sports has been incompetently managed for nearly a decade). Sega has their niche they mine and outside of that okay not so much. Interested what people think but I really do not think the situation is as dire as it is being made out to be. Maybe I'm very thoroughly wrong, fair enough that is a definite possibility, but people broadly have a habit of panicking over things that will turn out completely fine, it's just that there is some short-term tumult and all of a sudden it's a full-scale disaster.

[@reshypoo9447]

The way I see playstation vs xbox, is when xbox was hemorrhaging money, microsoft accepted the losses and carried on. Whereas if playstation became unprofitable, they might well not make another playstation. Concern is a personal thing. Games aren't eggs or petrol. I couldn't care less what brand of eggs I buy, whereas I don't buy EA, Activision, Take-two, and very rarely Ubisoft. Indie games can entertain for a week or two, but don't hold my attention for months/years the way an MMO or Open-world RPG can. I generally play a handful of games. Mostly Bethesda and a few Squarenix. If Microsoft did knock out Sony, they wouldn't feel the need to maintain the quality which they are currently focusing on (delaying starfield for example). If they feel subscription revenue is static, they might downsize or shutter studios to save costs. Probably end up a larger EA of old, where they hold all these "dead" IPs. Fallout was a dead IP for a while, unlikely but it could well become one again. Last I heard, square was looking to sell itself, likely to Sony. Rather wonder what would happen if that occurs, and Sony was later pushed out of the gaming space. Maybe a bit of a THQ situation where they auction off the IPs? What would become of FFXIV... I'm sure it would be a very entertaining mess in the short term, but the medium term consequences would significantly impact my gaming experiences.

[@AzureFides]

@@reshypoo9447 I think people have misconception about business that either you're the number one or you die. Which we have seen again and again that's rarely the case. Apple before iPhone lost to MS by miles yet it was still profitable, Nintendo's hardware can't even dream to compete against others yet they still made ton of money. Table Top games are inferior to video games at almost every aspects yet still thriving. McDonald with subpair food quality is still the largest fast food franchise in the world. The point is as long as they have their unique assets that their competitors don't have, they will be doing just fine. They might not be the number one but it's not like they have to die.

[@gander8802]

A hard drive format is unacceptable, fixing bug 2 is always the correct answer. You cannot ship a game that would do that, thats malware.

[@ZergD]

I always love when Rami is on the show!!! Thank you !!!

[@Battlepope_316]

The sandman show was done greatly. But i also absolutely love the audible adaptation they did on audible.

[@kurothot2203]

Might have been brief but glad Rami mentioned Dwarf Fortress.

[@wahahabuh]

I would like to point out that the lootbox thing needs to be extended to physical, real world loot boxes aka MTG, Pokemon TCG and pretty much every single TCG in existence

[@shadow12k]

That idea for the “union” coh suggested sounds like a record company business model. I dont think gaming studios want to go into debt if they sell bad.

[@terakahn]

Man loved Microsoft flight simulator so much he started doing it in real life.

[@wenom12345]

I like that Rami speaks for the entire dev community..

[@GM-xk1nw]

Yeah, like being jealous of Elden ring success and crying about the UI

[@bulls123gg44]

Great episode, Love seeing Rami back even when I disagree with some of his takes, 😂

[@alleex921]

I really Can’t understand how gamepass can be profitable for Microsoft… how are they paying for everything when you can get the subscription dirt cheep? The math don’t add up to me.

[@_unknown_guy]

2:28:43 here you can put yourself in gamblers list and as every gambling place has to check ID, they won't let you in as they are then responsible for losing you losing money. Also just 3 months later you can take yourself of the list. Of course, bypassing it on internet gambling is as easy.

[@RDGridJanika]

I dont worry about Microsoft getting Blizzard, Playstation has their big hitting exlusive games which are goty material , i dont know how long xbox gonna keep their game pass thing, i dont know how each dev team can push out bigger games with game pass revenue.

[@ruibarian5187]

Sony can only not afford it because Sony's parent company has CHOSEN not to invest in gaming. That's a natural market force.

[@Juhz0r]

This is true, but I'm not sure the point is. Just because it's a natural market force doesn't mean the outcome is good. Monopolization is also a natural market force under capitalism.

[@notchjohnson2540]

So I guess Elon was just ahead of the curve, regarding the mass layoffs at Twitter, here a few months ago?

[@dukecunning7046]

35:00 Question: "What is going on with the Games Industry layoffs?" What I am not hearing is with the advancements in AI, I have been wondering when this would be happening.

[@razadox4043]

I'm an air traffic controller in the U.S. and I really enjoyed this episode

[@AaronGrosch29]

I traveled on that fateful Wednesday. Got home in the same day. Appreciate you.

[@dagamarvanderkoft3784]

I just got my TOL and I too enjoyed this episode lol

[@razadox4043]

@@dagamarvanderkoft3784 Nice, congratulations

[@BloodyBobJr]

I'd sign up to ride Ismael air

[@arthurchen6464]

This CAPTAIN Rami segment is absolutely fascinating.

[@gilney.mathias]

Rami' episodes are always so nice, even more so this one, with so many news piled up 😅

[@shenanigans9604]

Rami is one fascinating guy, thanks for the show everyone. Love his in depth talk of game design.

[@Jhakri_]

Rami episodes are just the best. Having Jericho on is always a lot fun & Rami brings so much knowledge & perspective to these talks.

[@EquusMulus]

These sorta long form podcast, less show episodes are among my favourites btw jp.

[@Justin-ee1mv]

Glad to see Rami’s GOTY list and all the other stuff that was talked about this episode

[@golith999]

Rami is saying Xbox is winning, but Playstation has so many exclusives that push people to buy their product. I think the console wars are close and leaning towards playstation. I'm an Xbox owner, I've never owned a PS and thus have never played any of their exclusives.

[@martinlarsen7354]

Talking about the industry... I trust M$ about as far as I can throw the USS Iowa. The FTC/EU should block this.

[@johnoneil9188]

Actually had a Dutch friend yell "Zeke is eating a Stroopwaffel!"

[@a3-radio]

Man i did my VFR PPL about a decade ago and haven't been able to fly since and the conversation at the beginning hit that right amount of nostalgia that i just wanted to jump back into a plane

[@tha_rami]

Do it!

[@Charbizard1]

Sitting in the airport. Cheers!

[@reshypoo9447]

I wonder, if Acti/Blizz has a bad reputation in China, would buying them spread the taint onto Microsoft's reputation? It would make for a comical situation were microsoft/xbox to find itself incidentally blacklisted from the Chinese marketplace.

[@S.Johannesson]

The EU have many flaws but 2:15:50 is why I'm so happy I'm part of the EU.

[@nanoflower1]

If every player is experiencing a crash they will end up considering the game to be buggy as hell. The second bug discussed is serious but considering it it is a 1 in a million bug there will be time to fix that bug after release and hopefully before anyone experiences a formatted HD.

[@AzureFides]

Even if MS ended up monopoly the gaming industry with GamePass I don't think they can charge what ever they want. Making a game doesn't rely on limited resource like land or oil, people with ideas can gather up and make their own studio and sell it on Stream or Kickstarter. Also bigger doesn't mean better and just because you're big doesn't mean people have to buy your games. E.g. EA and Ubisoft back in the day, the moment they start to turn bad people just stop buying their game/service. Same as Netflix and Disney. Unless MS could buy out Epic or Valve then that will be a real problem. But I doubt they could do that because anti-monopoly law.

[@sethchapman1425]

The problem WotC has is companies are banning together. And the Community is backing these Companies. Even VTT like Roll 20 has joined Pizio. I have watched another video from Heath's Geekverse. That this may be a much bigger topic than just our OGL.

[@thedingus4356]

Cohh's face at 2:52:50 needs to be an emote! PLEASE!

[@Justin-ee1mv]

Pog

[@VideogamesAsArt]

0:55 What do you mean 60fps? All the other youtube videos have always been 1080p60, and the cameras also look the same. What exactly did you change?

[@ianprohofsky7681]

Rami's TikTok/vampire survivor comment needs to be a TikTok of yours JP

[@wahahabuh]

The WoW thing with NetEase is different to what is being discussed here. Blizzard wanted to take advantage of NetEase and NetEase refused. Then Blizzard decided to throw them under the bus publicly and made false claims about them, so NetEase got pissed off and basically called them (I'm paraphrasing) "virtue signalling hypocritical donkeys who pretend to be good but are actually untrustworthy". The symbolism is not about destroying the statue, but the green tea that was given out to volunteers who destroyed the statue. A lot of the details are obviously unavailable, but the one thing that is publicly verified is that Blizzard wanted to extend their contract with NetEase for 6 months while they actively look for another local partner. Which understandably would piss off NetEase, because they're basically behaving like arrogant colonials and treating NetEase as lesser than them instead of as an equal partner Also Tencent is not the same company as NetEase, so Tencent's game announcement is basically Tencent taking advantage of the conflict between NetEase and Blizzard.

[@xicyDJx]

Rami on last call for adventure please

[@whydoidoit]

Rami episodes of DF are my JAM!!

[@Nathanael_Forlorn]

Yoo stacklands shoutout! So good, and cheap! Picked it up for under 5$.

[@BloodyBobJr]

I like this Rami looks. Almost like evil twin Rami.. versus goody beardless Rami

[@Machobunni]

someone send this podcast to the FTC!! QUICK!

[@Robalogot]

I find it fascinating how so many people still haven't caught on that any publicly traded company has one goal, make as much money as possible for their shareholders. Producing quality games is only part of their business plan if they have to produce quality games to get their market share. It's why EA is EA, they have no competition with their licensed shit so they don't need to invest in their games. Microsoft will milk us to the point where we pay a lot of money for games that are cheap to make, because there's no competition left. No matter how many Phil Spencer's there are in charge, because their shareholders would sue if they spend more of the profits than they have to.

[@seekyunbounded9273]

2:38:30 , if you watc henought "the china show" podcast it wont feel bizzar anymore, casual week even

[@vazzaroth]

The 80's: Hey lets get nerds more social and organized The 2020's: Hey gamers, now that we're organized, BURN THIS MOTHER DOWN I highly recommend the Gary Gygax doc book. Fascinating how D&D as a concept has just been a total business disruptor from the second it was made. Turns out, monetizing the human imagination is difficult.

[@mootang]

Wow I nearly forgot about that Elden Ring UI stuff ever happened at this point, but since Rami brought it up I really think the discussion got sidetracked when Ubisoft and Horizon dev start dissing on Elden Ring UI then got dissed in return (which is to say, right from the get go).

[@Gedis2x]

Rami just limit the ammo on the hookshot gun :D It has 1 clip and you cant reload until you jump in.

[@oonit]

Rami episodes are my favorites!

[@miikkapri]

I'm with you on this!

[@dsagent]

Gabe Newell has to do before Steam is sold.

[@reeree2014]

Did a discovery flight in an R22 and the pilot offered to show me an autorotation. Very very fun, also glad we didn't die.

[@Juhz0r]

1:38:23 Striking Frenchman is the best type of Frenchman.

[@Ycros]

Jeff Gerstmann on this show when

[@bensayer9406]

This is A+ KZbin.

[@seekyunbounded9273]

RAAAAMIIII, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO LETS FUCKING GO, CAN I GET HELL YEA?!!!!!

[@lokikol6537]

51:48 the portion where Coh/Coh’s chat posits that monopolies are good

[@Nickonil]

amazing show absolutely love it!

[@warriorfight111]

43:19 - Remedy and Kojima also

[@kephalai]

i really love episodes with rami.. i just wish he was on the show more often! make it monthly or something! i usually listen to the show on a 2nd monitor while playing games, but man i was glued to the first half of this show not doing anything else..

[@gabriellenuit]

Poffertjes gang represent!

[@KM-xf1ft]

Yas, Rami

[@avidviewer2223]

I only care about the games honestly and Sony has the best games.

[@vazzaroth]

Oof my life exited my body when "Game design" and "Loops" were said automatically like it's just the only possible way to design a game. IDK, I'm not in the industry but I do study game design (including Rami's work!) and it's so sad but real that design = longevity now. When I think of "design" I think of elegance, balancing the mechanics, the gamefeel, and the story elements (even if that's just the graphics) alongside length. But it's so true that, at the VERY minimum, in AAA longevity is design tenant 1 or maybe 2. (I guess we're lucky these days if longevity can beat monetization scheme... -__- ) My 2 favorite games of all time: Shadow of the Colossus and Katamari Damacy are both infamously short, but people are STILLLLLLLL playing them in 2023. The loop is tiny, but tight, and the game is, by comparison to many, tiny too. Which is appropriate. If either was made these days, colossus mechanics woulda been held back for DLC, or you'd have to buy special limited items to roll up to get big boosts in Kata. I hate the idea of just being a boomer about this but man, I'm 33 and I can say without a shadow of a doubt, gaming has LOST something since I originally became a fan as a literal baby.

[@tha_rami]

Amen to this. Sadly, design is at its core "problem solving", and the context we design in affects our affordances. Outside of that sits artistic intent, and that's where beauty happens. Keep this attitude: compromise where needed, make cool shit where you can.

[@MrLild1425]

Cap’n

[@WFkSLy]

Woot

[@ausoleil8269]

With POE lootboxes also, you can't loot things you already got, so you rapidly get everything. I still think it would be better without these.

[@varianngaming9403]

What the hell is Rami smoking? 🤣 Xbox ain't winning shit, they haven't had a first party game in over a year, Playstation 5 is smashing Xbox in sales, Sony are doing just fine.

[@barthollomewhunt7320]

Love having Rami on the show! Hopefully he comes on more

[@excinerus]

Here's a reasonable use for blockchain (and I can't believe I'm saying this) : game saves/ character progress when games are being shut down. for whenever projects popup again to revive them. NFTs are fossilized receipts, that if done right, can be cheap and tamper proof. Perfect for cinema tickets and them [platform/game] achievements.

[@Morden97]

Despite all the issues sony still seems to be "winning"? I'd say xbox is kinda.. gaining ground. But yeah the subscription business model looks like it's gonna become dominant, but I dunno I think MS will find some way to mess it up 😅

[@Euphamia]

Ramis hole argument is that the game industry is bad now and it will just get worse with Microsoft owning everything. His examples just make zero sense and in the end are opinions. I hate exclusive culture and honestly I have zero love for Sony.

[@rogerbabin8175]

37:10 Rami saying that talent was highly OVERPAID is the first I've ever heard of that. No video game youtuber has ever said anything about lower tier game employees being anything but grossly underpaid for their services. I'm genuinely surprised they didn't challenge this claim as it clearly goes against what they all believe. Imagine Rami saying that CEO's were highly underpaid and them being totally chill with that like its a fact. Its that level of surprised.

[@gzzzt]

He's clearly not talking about low level employees or contractors. Also, despite a temporary glut, it's worth remembering that is rarely the case. Like Master P said, that white man offered me a million dollars, how much you think I’m really worth?

[@tha_rami]

"Overpaid" is absolutely the wrong word: there was a very rapid increase in salary over the last year-and-a-bit that basically meant studios were paying top talent far above the curve. I'm all for devs earning infinite money, but I'd rather see it distributed on a curve than flowing up on a hockey-stick kind of graph.

[@dizzt19]

@@tha_rami BTW do you usually use the word "talent" for game devs? I'm used to the entertainment context so people like actors, independent composers, musicians, writers...

[@crimsonpassione3422]

Microsoft winning, hah best joke I've heard

[@carn8ge]

This is Capitalism with a capital C, period. It's about time to bring in Hasan Piker...

[@_unknown_guy]

2:18:10 can't agree with Rami here. This is the same argument as with free speech. This will lead to basically game censorship. As much as I don't like something like Diablo Immoral, trusting EU to come up with sane regulation is wishful thinking. Even if the first revision is fine, next one will go after violence, gore or any other "sensitive" subject at the time. Few minutes ago you already did go through how the protests are handled by stalling. EU will start with relatively mild regulation and sneak in the wild stuff later. Regulations always favor big players, that's just how it is in every other sector.

[@tha_rami]

Europe does not have "free speech" yet I've never felt limited in what I say - the rules are deeply specific. I personally think limited but highly specific regulation always creates healthier environments than unregulated ones. Especially when it comes to corporations, they have such financial incentive to find the outer edges of what is allowed (or to invest in broadening what is allowed), that setting clear bounds can absolutely help regulate what we can't regulate ourselves.

[@_unknown_guy]

@@tha_rami highly specific and limited - me looking at how GDPR and Cookie law have made a generation of people just clicking agree. My fear is that big corporations will lobby for rules that benefit them and small devs will get the short end of stick. Easy target of course will be app stores and making owners of them responsible for enforcing rules. Can it even be specific and targeted? Loot boxes are easy or are they if we look how Diablo Immoral added a "zone" before box so next maybe remove the box and now the zone have chance to drop something or maybe the free zone has chance to drop the good item but you now pay for higher chance. Look at how kid games are monetized - want item, watch ad. Earning money indirectly from kids. If there should be a law then it should force everyone to watch "Let’s go whaling: Tricks for monetising mobile game players with free-to-play" from Pocket Gamer Connects Helsinki 2016

[@cappakrunchcappakrunch9681]

Im sorry, but its fairly delusional to think a shop wouldn't sell 1000 booster packs to anyone with the money. I've personally seen kids 12,13,14 spend $1500+ on a single pair of shoes an sneakercons. A sale is a sale. I know the lemmings will try and castrate me for this, but; Loot boxes are fine. You never (that i've seen) get NOTHING. Surprise and gambling are very different and I lean towards the "I dont know what im getting, but I AM getting something" is a surprise side of things.

[@dsck6481]

Castration wont fix sociopathy as far as I know.

[@cappakrunchcappakrunch9681]

@@dsck6481 Comment might be funny, if you used sociopath even remotely correct.

[@cappakrunchcappakrunch9681]

@@dsck6481 You also add NOTHING of value to the argument. If you're gonna say something.... SAY SOMETHING. give a reason. Explain. You can't.

[@FakeEgirl]

really annoying how uninformed the blizzard netease debate was, painting them as the bad guys but i guess china bad eh?

[@videogames9972]

i really didnt like how rami was trying to claim xbox already won, because on paper it looks good, like all microsoft presentations "look good on paper" then you see the actual final result, and its crack down, or halo infinite, or like kinect. and so much other stuff he was just straight wrong about, game pass "making money" no, its been operating at a loss and missing quotas for years now.. What does rami even do ? he's not making games, he hasnt released a game in like 10 years. he's out of touch

[@tha_rami]

This might be the feeling from the outside, but on the inside this is fairly agreed upon. If you see the deals, hear the conversations, compare the strategies, and see the trajectory for things 2-3 years down the line - Microsoft is building something remarkably resilient here in Gamepass. It could absolutely still fail as it is now, but if they can lock in something like Activision-Blizzard, those chances go down significantly. The real question isn't whether that's true, but how low the chances of failure actually get.

[@impotenceaura]

Playstation invested in & built almost all their studios and have created generation defining games for since ps1. Microsoft has a long history of anti consumer & monopolistic strategies. Gamers are being blinded by game pass being a good deal for them at the moment, but it's a terrible deal for the industry. It undercuts competition because they can afford the loss leader and reduce the profitability of the entire industry until their competitors are bankrupt.