Evolution Can't Explain Your Grandma

[@nicbro3831]

Chickens experience henopause. My old girl recently passed. Before she went she filled the role of loving matriarch AND rooster. She would call her younger sisters over and cluck gently and offer them food (rooster behavior). She would lay and egg once a year or so, but she lived to be 9. She filled a grandmother role very much. I think its just too hard on the body to continue fertility.

[@Aurorya]

"Henopause" lmao 😂

[@Sarah-with-an-H]

Females being fertile takes up a lot of resources and energy. That's why females tend to be not as physically strong.

[@ANNA-fr333]

You know you've come across a person of true class when they come up with a wicked pun like 'henopause'. You sound like a lovely chicken parent.

[@emoryogglethorp8180]

"Chimpanzees are kinda jerks" whoever wrote that script has a talent for understatement LOL

[@MrGksarathy]

There are children in the audience, ya know.

[@heathertaylor-willockx3632]

Bonobos are so much nicer

[@jasonhaven7170]

Chimpanzees have light skin, thin lips, big ears and hairy bodies.

[@jasonhaven7170]

Chimpanzees have light skin, thin lips, big ears and hairy bodies.

[@diablo.the.cheater]

Explains why they are the living animal species closer to humans....

[@nathanandsugar5252]

Orca grandkids: What are you teaching us today grandma? Orca grandma: How to choose violence (against boats).

[@StaticCollapse]

Based

[@TheModdedwarfare3]

​@@StaticCollapsebased and yacht pilled

[@dr.gwendolyncarter]

😂😂😂

[@nottelling7438]

​@@TheModdedwarfare3This comment has a "Translate to English" button, but it doesn't change the text. Someone please send help...

[@NinaDmytraczenko]

Can I get an Orca grandma as well?? 😍😍😍

[@myboatforacar]

Trust me, nothing in this world can explain my grandma.

[@Tre0897]

came here for this comment

[@Lambda_Ovine]

she's just quirky

[@VladimirSavic]

😊😊😊​@@Tre0897

[@maxbromet4365]

I relate

[@alicewilloughby4318]

😂😂😂

[@FrozEnbyWolf150]

It takes a village to raise a child, and people quickly forget that reproduction is far from the only behavior necessary for the survival of the population in a social species. Reproduction takes a huge investment of time and energy on the individual, and in species that survive through cooperative behavior, it makes sense for there to be individuals who spend their time and energy supporting the population in other ways. There are plenty of animal species where individuals will, in fact, sacrifice their own reproductive success for the sake of others.

[@applegal3058]

I think I read somewhere that people who aren't heterosexual still serve important evolutionary purposes in the past. People have more to offer than reproduction. Having people who are there to help with nieces and nephews, to assist others in building homes or hunting, and to help contribute to culture and art. No matter a person's status in life...childless, menopausal, having a big family, etc, we all have the opportunity to contribute to our family and to our society.

[@philalethistry7937]

Isn't that theory what this video was disproving though?

[@Just_A_Dude]

@@philalethistry7937 It doesn't actually disprove it, though. It just says that it's probably not the _ONLY_ factor.

[@arusirham3761]

Source about animal sacrifice? Really curious.

[@EG-hy9mv]

@@arusirham3761I know some social birds like crows will return to their parents' nest if they don't have luck mating to help raise their younger siblings. Since those siblings still share some percentage of genes with them it isn't a total loss. And of course there are eusocial insects like the Hymenopterans, which focus entirely on helping their mother make more sisters. I could be wrong, but I believe a quirk of their genetics means worker ants are more closely related to their female siblings than they would be to their own children, so there's a clear benefit to helping the queen make more babies instead of trying to make your own

[@benjaminbaer9712]

The fact that "why don't women drop dead after menopause" is an actual scientific question is the most interesting thing I learned from this.

[@DuncanL7979]

It really isn't. It's a misunderstanding of evolution - as if evolution were a centrally controlled system with actively managed resources. A living thing doesn't need a reason, purpose or function in its existence. If it has the capacity to survive then it does.

[@sofiagj841]

It's the most patriarchal question I've listened to in a long time

[@valhatan3907]

I'm actually concerned that someone questioning about that

[@user-bc6ev6qd2k]

isn't the question "why aren't women able to have children their whole lives"?

[@Laszer271]

You all are looking for ill will where there is none just so you can have something to be angry about... Most of our characteristics had some purpose and can be tracked down to evolutionary advantage. We can imagine 2 versions of our ancestors, one has a given characteristic and the 2nd one doesn't. If the given characteristic survived to this day then we can expect that it gave an evolutionary advantage to our ancestors in some way compared to the individuals that don't have this characteristic. Looking at evolution from this perspective we can ask interesting questions like why do we have brows, why the nose is shaped the way it is, why do we have more hair on top of our head than in other parts of our body. Given that, we know that the characteristics that were given the evolutionary advantage were much more likely to survive to this day, we can assume that all those things I mentioned had some purpose and try to guess what the purpose was - it's a very interesting study giving us better understanding about ourselves and about nature in general. In the same way, we can ask why women live after menopause instead of living shorter or not having menopause at all? If you think about it, it's strange, I would think that it's more advantageous to be able to reproduce for longer, as long as possible really, and to have more children because of this. However, given that we (as a species) have this characteristic of women having menopause we can infer that living for some time in which you couldn't have more offspring was in some way more advantageous than being able to have new offspring throughout the whole life. The advantageous character of these characteristics is further proven by many species having the same characteristics. Yet it's hard to come up with a good answer as to why this is advantageous - this is an interesting problem requiring more studies. If you find such scientific studies offensive, you are really so wrong, it's not even funny. Think for some time about your approach to life instead of thinking about what makes you angry. You may just discover that you have some problems that need working on.

[@miaomiaochan]

She's gone now, but my maternal grandmother beat breast cancer in her 60s and survived many years with the metastatic lung cancer that finally took her at 97. She was the first female train conductor in her country, a national table tennis champion, and a survivor of the Japanese occupation of northeast China. She lived to see her first great-grandchild, and made it a point to take a stroll around her neighborhood each day. All her daughters turned out well, too. It's a family full of strong, intelligent, self-sufficient women that take no crap from anyone and had successful careers outside the home (retired now).

[@jdmmg4904]

Wow, there are so many stories that could be told about her, I'm sure. It sounds like you had a very impressive grandmother and it sounds like she enjoyed her life as well.

[@mikki_s1100]

She sounds like an amazing woman, thank you for sharing

[@kaptainkaos1202]

I know today my daughter stopped in to visit with my granddaughters. She needed to get some work done and pick up groceries so the girls got to hang out, eat and get lots of love. My daughter got done what she needed to do and was less stressed after while the girls got time with their Mimi. Everyone was happy, accomplished and loved. That’s what us grandmas are for.

[@billpetersen298]

This patiently waiting, to be a grandpa, is jealous. ❤️

[@nanszoo3092]

also, grandmothers pass on the information that mothers need to raise their children without losing their sanity. I spent a LOT of time on the phone with my friend's mom when my kids were young and my daughter spent a LOT of time on the phone with me when my grandchildren were younger. I imagine that grandpas have a similar role for parents too. Not to mention other knowledge gathered over a lifetime that keeps the species going and prospering

[@ember9361]

go grandma

[@robabiera733]

Great stereotype, but not every grandma lives up to it.

[@allieeverett9017]

Of course not. My mother had VERY little to do with any of her grandchildren...or her children for that matter. It just wasn't her cup of tea.

[@ParadoxProblems]

The disparity in the case of grandfathers would seem to come from a more obvious location: males don't carry the baby. They don't take on physiological stress from childbirth, so there would be no direct pressure for them to cease being fertile. Ovulation itself in many species places stress upon the animals, so if the continued stresses of ovulation and the possible burdens caused by more children outweigh the positive effects of having more children, it would make sense for it to end.

[@huldu]

Generally speaking males tend to die sooner than females in nature. Then of course males in general are more aggressive and might fight each other and get injured and die from that. Also doesn't many men get erection problems as they get older not sure how that translates into wild animals but who knows. We can't just look at us today we have to go way back ~10-15k years ago and even longer. Things like this doesn't happen overnight it takes time. Another factor is that we live a lot longer than "intended" for sure. I'd say that 30-40 years is probably our expected natural life anything over that is just icing on the cake. This applies to animals if they don't die from diseases, injuries etc they clearly live longer than they're able to reproduce.

[@MK77755r]

This is the most logical reason in my opinion, and it's not just the stress of ovulation, there is also the decrease in quality of gestation and eggs, and increased chance of complications of gestation.

[@0.-.0]

​@@huldu Why would you think that our "natural" life span was 30-40...?? Ozti the Iceman was 45 years old and he was healthy and in good condition when he was murdered.

[@huldu]

@@0.-.0 That name rings a bell and that wasn't that long ago. I was thinking more around the time when we were a bit more "wild". We've progressed an insane amount compared to our relatives. I personally do not know any of our primate cousins that wear any sort of clothing in the wild. The evolution of us humans has taken a long time, we didn't get to where we are in a weekend. If you rewind 100 thousand years I bet things were a bit different and the same if you fast forward 100 thousand years(if we're still around).

[@tanithetiger]

​@@huldu the number you're using is an average that was skewed by infant and child mortality rates. I don't personally know what the age range of early humans was but I'd guess at least 50-60 based on all the evidence we have of ancient human skeletons.

[@TragoudistrosMPH]

This dancing grandparents were a treat on top of great science. I need to call my grandmother today 😁

[@tbella5186]

Please do! Tell Grandma hi!

[@sogerc1]

Do it if you're lucky enough to still have her around. My grandmother was more mother to me than my mother.

[@AL-fl4jk]

Do it if you can!,

[@ezellebenecke8339]

dancing grandpa is life

[@p.s.224]

I‘ll call mine, too!

[@mrlittgen]

Seems like it's "have a pregancy that's likely to kill both you and your child" vs "be around to increase your family's chances of survival"

[@Keaze]

The problem is that, as mentioned in the video, in many species that ovulate, these females don't actually care for THEIR family (if they care for any family at all), since their family disperses and leaves. Also, pregnancy isn't actually that dangerous for other mammals. Humans have particularly bad pregnancies due to bipedalism and babies' overly large brains.

[@MrHaighahatta]

We know that complications of pregnancy significantly increase with a woman's age. Is this true of other species?

[@lagunkaz]

Doesn't really apply to other species that experience menopause, so this doesn't seem like a likely explanation. Humans have uniquely large heads which is what makes human birth risky.

[@DJFracus]

@@MrHaighahatta To a degree, but pregnancy is more dangerous for humans than it is for the vast majority of other mammals. The large heads and long baking time contributed to extremely high childbirth mortality rates up until only around 100 years ago.

[@420champion4]

I always thought that the mood swings associated with menopause would cause social rifts. These rifts would naturally increase the chance of the woman being ejected from the tribe, or worse. The result is fewer mouths to feed as a community.

[@tropicsteaders]

My *paternal* grandma raised me and my sister. My mom passed when I was a year old, and she herself - along with her sister - had been abandoned by their mother and raised by their *paternal* grandma. They don't need to be scientifically necessary, but I am alive because of two women - decades apart - that couldn't prove 100% their relation to their son's offspring... but just the same took care of their potential grand daughters. I'm here, because they were here... ❤ Grandmas are unexplainable and awesome.

[@veryironicveryhistrionic]

You **really** don't like your maternal grandmother, do you? 🤣

[@erikarussell1142]

As a new grandma myself (his first birfday is today!!) I can honestly say, parenting (is) a learned behavior. And teaching my daughter to be a mother is hard work. And she’s smart, quick, and willing to learn.

[@TaiJendamNation]

Congratulations :) sounds like a healthy dynamic and a great new grandma

[@erikarussell1142]

Awe Tysm!!! We try to work as one unit. And communication and compromise is key always. Why get mad and hold resentments when we can have a conversation and see how we both feel and come to a singular conclusion that works for everyone?

[@pommiebears]

I’m waiting on grandchildren! I wish one of mine would hurry up. I’m so ready for it lol. Happy birthday to your little one 🎉

[@Hihihihihihi147]

Congrats to you and your family 😊❤

[@erikarussell1142]

@@Hihihihihihi147 thank you!!!! 🫶🏼✨🫶🏼

[@TortlOdum]

the older i get the more convinced i am that humans are secretly matriarchal, my grandmother was the most influential person in my life

[@oldscratch3535]

Wait until you realize that we actually live in a gynocracy. Absolutely everything is gynocentric and in favor of women at the expense of men.

[@castleanthrax1833]

Humans aren't secretly matriarchal. We're openly matriarchal.

[@LGrian]

The archeological evidence for ubiquity of egalitarian gender roles among pre-agricultural societies is quite strong.

[@YurinanAcquiline]

I think matriarchy is the natural human way, but patriarchy is what we ended up with.

[@oldscratch3535]

@@YurinanAcquiline We don't have a patriarchy.

[@nikkireigns]

My grandmother is my best friend and she’s going to pass any moment. Love you grandma! I wouldn’t be who I am without you ❤

[@Uriel238]

Um, the extended mothering hypothesis sounds a lot like the grandmother hypothesis. Also, the way evolutionary mutation works, the mutation doesnt need to keep the same purpose, so much as not be too hindering while between purposes. Pregnancy is taxing and poses a greater risk to older mothers. Also, the risk of birth defects increases with age of maternity, so by terminating fertility, it curbs a whole batch of problems. Then if there's a social benefit to having older females around (more food, more hugs, more teachers, etc.) then there's reason to not succumb to predators, disease and elements.

[@nanahachi9628]

The risks for birth defects also increase with the age of the father. Additionally, the risks for the mother during pregnancy and birth also increase with the age of the father.

[@mattsch21]

​@@nanahachi9628to a dramatically smaller extent. Not mentioning that is intellectual dishonesty at best and more likely just straight up lying. Stop lying.

[@MyRedmamba]

​@@mattsch21 I believe there were some studies done (cant be 100 percent sure until I research it later) where they took eggs from healthy females in their 20s and tried to fertilize them with the sperm of healthy men from various age groups. It was found that the sperms odds of fertilizing an egg decreased with the age of the men 50 and up and had a 40% decrease compared to men in their 20s. With that being said I do know for a fact that women over 35 who are still fertile and want to get pregnant through artificial insemination are always advised to pick a younger sperm donor because it can increase their odds. I guess the best way to sum this all up is that it's best for both genders to reproduce in their 20s and early 30s but if they are older, it benefits them to go for younger fresher eggs or sperm 🤷‍♀️

[@kathrynthomas6390]

The biggest difference is whether their care and attention is directed towards only their direct children or if it also directly benefits grandchildren.

[@bellenesatan]

​@@mattsch21Seems like a lot of emotional investment, Matt. Calm down and list your sources if you're so certain of your "intellectual honesty", you can't strongarm people into agreeing with you.

[@Kitchensink108]

Someone had fun picking out stock video of grandpas dancing.

[@tbella5186]

Considering that I wouldn't likely have survived without my Grandma, evolution knew what it was doing. I miss her, 4 years later and it's no easier...

[@shakeyj4523]

Yes, and that care is why humans were successful. It's about the care, not the hormones.

[@kraneiathedancingdryad6333]

Considering how many grannies end up raising their grandkids and in some cases great grandkids.... Thank goodness for Grandma!

[@wisejackproject]

I just lost mine two weeks ago tomorrow. She was the first person in my life that died that I was close to. The first loved one I've lost. I wish I could have one more conversation with her.

[@tbella5186]

@wisejackproject I'm so sorry, I wish I could say it hurts less over time, but the memories do get shinier and sweeter, as time goes on. That first loss is a hard one. My best advice is to allow yourself to grieve however you need to, there is no right way, or time frame! Mine raised me, and we lost her on Mother's Day to Covid in 2020, so i didn't even get to hold her. The loss still knocks me over sometimes...

[@LaurieAnnCurry]

Hugs😘

[@Twitty00700]

RIP Grandma. It has been 21 years and I still miss you dearly 😥

[@baurochs2283]

Most primates do this, the grandpas usually either advice the leader of the tribe or defend the nest while younger males and females go out, thats why i hate this whole alpha/beta/sigma thing we invented, it was even disproven that wolf heirarchy is like that

[@Keaze]

I wish we just stopped using wild animals as any kind of a moral ideal. The whole thing stems from the misguided notion that evolution is some grand plan refining species into a more and more superior lifeform. It's seen as a grand tournament where the best ones win, when in reality it's more like a lottery, and the reward is (drumroll)...being slightly less likely to die. On average. Over millennia. Just because you happen to better deal with whatever random environmental conditions that are currently at hand long enough to churn out kids. Heck, this even lead to a bunch of species who only live as far as it takes to reproduce, and die of starvation or don't even have a mouth to eat with because that doesn't directly contribute to reproduction. Congrats on having the same "superior genes" as species like that. "Winning" evolution is like winning at being picked at random and thinking that says something about how special and superior you are.

[@miaomiaochan]

This stupid Greek "ranking" system is a means for insecure younger men to feel better about themselves. It's all.

[@jordanbabcock9349]

Only people that get their identity from the Internet are paying ANY attention to that "alpha beta sigma" crap.

[@telegramsam]

the kind of dingdongs who fall for that nonsense aren't too hung up on actual facts, in my experience

[@Akakiryuushin]

idk being an old man and still being smart and strong enough to do those things sound pretty alpha to me

[@falcoskywolf]

The extended mothering hypothesis makes a lot of sense. Mammal babies are ENTIRELY dependent on mom for at least a few months, and with the odds of survival dropping rapidly when a species' bones and joints start becoming weaker, it makes sense for the body to want to shut off the baby-making capacity long before the rest of the body declines. Males being still fertile through older age could be seen as a way to keep them invested in protection of the group, because even if they aren't having children themselves, the hormone balance of male fertility is often seen as conducive to muscle building and the ability to fight. If their fertility dropped, so might their strength.

[@junebug6010]

strength...does drop with men in old age. i think it's because men don't like, give birth, and so their fertility is easier to maintain throughout their life because it's less complex.

[@Thebenvars]

whoever chose the stock clips for this video, you are awesome, great grandparent clips

[@fep_ptcp883]

My granny used to say "gimme a hug", and my brothers, cousins and I, unsuspectingly, hugged her. Then she used to fart and grab us hard, not letting us kids escape, while she laughed her @ss off

[@ameteuraspirant]

thank you for this wisdom.

[@Quokkat7]

thats amazing. Im gonna steal that

[@noodles.dumplings.kimchi2878]

ICONIC.

[@MantraHerbInchSin]

I guess I love your gradma then

[@justinpatterson5291]

Damn. I think I know who my mum's mentor is...

[@addicted2caffeine]

I theorise that mammals where babies are grown for long periods inside of the mother and nutritionally taxing. Also if no grandma then there's more chance that babies get eaten . Also I would point out that I've learnt more as an adult than as a kid. So maybe it's not about having kids but rather about teaching your adult kids how to raise kids. You learn to be an adult as a kid. But you learn to be a parent as an adult. Some knowledge just can't be passed down to kids so you need older adults to pass on the knowledge. Also for me it's not energy taxing to reproduce in the same way it is for mother's if they have too many children I'm sure it must quite literally drain the life force out of you.

[@Benni777]

Nona’s are just so cool, they don’t NEED science to explain them, they’re that iconic 🤙🏻👑

[@proton8689]

Getting pregnant at an old age could be risky for the mother and fetus with a risk of death for both. Therefore it may not be ideal to continue to have children after a certain age.

[@sandra.helianthus]

Good point

[@DudeWhoSaysDeez]

But does that apply to all species? What about the species that don't have menopause?

[@Fairygoblin777]

But then you have to ask -why- that is

[@proton8689]

@@DudeWhoSaysDeez It would likely apply to mammals since they will carry the young for live births. Hence a health risk.

[@sandra.helianthus]

@@DudeWhoSaysDeez it would not apply for species without childraising strategies or were parents die after "giving birth". But any others? Perhaps it does. Also, the physical price for egg production or even pregnancies is really high, which might make the body shut off that function in order to better survive as individual - and that could be valid for most species.

[@Lowenaaa]

I remember someone talking about a paper published about grandma killer whales. Apparently, group of orca without grandmothers had their offspring less likely to survive. It was data, I don't remember the number and I just wish I was able to access this paper again.

[@Blewlongmun]

They're similarly super social and have long gestation and infant periods, I'd be curious about elephants or dolphins.

[@sandra.helianthus]

I guess, even if the grandmother hypotheses does not explain menopause, it can still have developed into an advantage of some kind in certain species (and perhaps these advantages differ from specie to specie 🤔)

[@GSBarlev]

Nattras et. al "Postreproductive killer whale grandmothers improve the survival of their grandoffspring" _PNAS_ (2019)

[@pheart2381]

I don't think it has anything to do with the sex of the whales. A larger pod will always be safer regardles of the gender of the whales.

[@Lowenaaa]

Killerwhales are matrilineal, which means they always (almost( have a female as a leader. Which is why the paper was about grandmothers specifically, being at the top of the group in question @@pheart2381

[@leeborocz-johnson1649]

One of the greatest click-baity titles I've ever seen, 10/10, I'm not mad at it at all. The old man dancing about his never-ending fertility made my day.

[@HollyOly]

As a middle-aged female who hangs out with undergrads, the “grandmother hypothesis” is one of my favorite thought puzzles to throw at them! I love this new layer to the question!!

[@nariu7times328]

The delivery of this segment is really enjoyable, excellent skills Savannah!

[@winterwatson6437]

savannah episodes are always the best

[@mattsch21]

It sucked

[@skylerethridge1848]

My grandmother is my best friend and was more of a mom than my own... im going to be lost without her when she passes away.

[@Fido-vm9zi]

You have to be able to ask yourself, "What would grandma do."

[@sussekind9717]

I'm not sure if it means anything, but I was raised by my mother, grandmother, and great-grandmother. My great-grandmother was the best cook. She didn't even stop using her wood stove for all her cooking until the early seventies. She would still fire it up every once in a while, though, when she had a specific recipe that called for its use. I guess when you're used to a certain way of doing things...

[@dynojackal1911]

The extended lifespan of humans compared to other apes (and most other mammals) is one part of the suites of adaptations that have allowed us to become sophant. Other traits include: close-knit family units to ensure child care if something happens to one or both parents; bipedal gaits to free our forelimbs for carrying objects (including babies) on the move (which is why our mammaries are high up on our chest); being born before our skull bones are fully fused; etc.

[@pheart2381]

How much of that close-knit family is to do with social pressure and social expectations rather than nature? Many Grandparents expected to be unpaid babysitters rather than living their own lives are very resentful of their loss of free time and being taken advantage of. I don't think as much of it comes by nature as we like to think!

[@cylontoaster7660]

@@pheart2381 You're viewing this from a modern societal perspective. One could argue that if a grandmother had a similar disposition thousands of years ago and that was tied to their genes, it may have resulted in their grandchildren being less likely to survive and in turn pass on their genes, effectively making it an undesirable trait that is detrimental to survival of their genetics

[@samanthagibson5791]

Being born without fused skull bones is not an advantage, it makes babies heads very susceptible to damage. I know why they are not fused, but that doesn't make it an advantage. Also all apes have their mammary glands in the same place

[@angelahull9064]

​@@samanthagibson5791 being able to pass through a narrow birth canal (hard to run long distance as a bipedal if the birth canal is as wide as a horse's, which isn't as much as a problem for the four-legged horse) is a huge advantage. Natural selection isn't necessarily optimizing adaptations to some sort of apex perfection, it's more often about certain adaptations working more efficiently for a given species. We are a speck on the evolutionary timeliness. The utility of our cognitive processing and manual dexterity is greatly outpacing the long process of natural selection regarding our reproductive systems. That doesn't mean we should ignore or discard what the reproductive systems were evolved to do as though its hindering our future evolution. It does mean our health and survival right now depends on respecting such development.

[@MarzzRover]

It’s actually my grandma‘s birthday today. Happy birthday, Grandma!

[@Quokkat7]

Happy Birthday to your Grandma!

[@peetabrown5813]

“28% of their lifespan unable to reproduce”, does that include both pre sexual maturity, and post ceased fertility?

[@VictoriaEMeredith]

I was wondering that as well. I’m pretty sure it includes both ends of the scale

[@jessicaolson490]

Yeah it would be more specific about it if it was post fertility I think.

[@ODISeth]

I think it’s important to remember that Natural Selection doesn’t mean that only the traits that help a species survive will be passed on, it means that any trait that doesn’t hurt a species’ survival rate will be passed on. We always call it survival of the fittest, but there are many traits in humans that don’t increase our fitness, they’re just neutral. Perhaps menopause is one such trait, it provided no evolutionary benefit to early mammals, but it wasn’t a detriment either, so the trait got passed on to their offspring, and thus, all the mammalian species that sprung from that early mammal. Perhaps instead of searching for an evolutionary benefit of menopause, we just need to demonstrate that it isn’t detrimental to survival, and I think the continued survival of all these species demonstrate that quite well

[@Stardustabyss8365]

My sentiment exactly 💯 💯

[@soogymoogi]

I honestly don't see why the grandmother hypothesis can't be true in humans? Just because it's not in some animals doesn't mean it can't be in us.

[@realfangplays]

I guess because it isn't explaining menopause. It may explain some other things like maybe the time of menopause or something but not the reason menopause exists.

[@awaredeshmukh3202]

If our closest evolutionary relatives all have reproductive senescence for reasons that aren't the grandmother hypothesis, it probably stands to reason that a) our common ancestor also did, and b) that common ancestor is also where we humans got reproductive senescence. That means that even if grandmothering is significant and beneficial for us, it isn't the original reason reproductive senescence evolved. That's just my guess though!

[@KxNOxUTA]

@@realfangplays menopause or the stop to reproductive ability is easily explained by pregnancy posing a high risk and even more so the more often it takes place and the higher the age. They were trying to explain what the evolutionary reason is to stay alive after that. Which is, frankly, ridiculously to be puzzled about. Cause there's a huge list of splendid reasons why. They're merely being misogynistic in their thinking and don't get, how emotional & mental health affect survival. 🤦‍♀

[@RaisingMyWildflowers]

My paternal grandma honestly saved me. I have abusive parents, and she moved in to help parent my siblings and me. She'd light up every time I entered the room and I remember wanting to make her proud. Her approval of my husband helped me trust I was marrying the right guy. lol. She passed away 11 years ago and I miss her so much. I so wish my children were able to have loving grandparents in their lives.

[@christyadams9235]

Grandmothers would have cumulative knowledge that would benefit the younger generation.

[@AliceRaabe]

How do I tell youtube's algorithm that this video is exactly what i look for in terms of quality, voiceacting, cast, theme, aproach, lenght and other not tangible aspects?

[@lysan1445]

The dancing men at the beginning really got me...🤣🤣🤣

[@starriknightsky]

First? I’m gonna be menopausal first! And raise all the grandkids!!! Why is there a deer peeing at 5:17 ???

[@birchall35]

It’s because the video was talking about being able to tell fertility through the urine

[@shakeyj4523]

Even more important, why is she staring at the camera whilst doing it?

[@rainydaylady6596]

​@@shakeyj4523She's thinking, Hey, can I get some privacy here? 🙂🖖💕

[@EricaGamet]

@@shakeyj4523 She knows what's she's doing. 😉

[@Dzeroed]

Ok these titles get weirder and weirder as time goes on. Damn I love this channel, it's evolving like I have over the past 40 years!

[@chaoticutopia]

Me, seeing thumbnail: hah. Those silly grandmas! Me, 1.5 seconds in: oh, it's about menopause. It's me. I'm grandma. 😢😂

[@pheart2381]

No we arn't Grandma. We are women.

[@chaoticutopia]

@pheart2381 speak for yourself. I have a uterus, but I am nonbinary. "It's me, I'm grandma" is literally what popped in my head, and I thought it was funny enough to share. It was not meant to trap anyone with an unwanted label.

[@wittykittywoes]

@@pheart2381grandmas rock though

[@crk3300]

Can someone explain why the premise biologists hold is that the SOLE purpose of an organism is to reproduce? Just by thinking about humans that seems like a flawed hypothesis. I would argue that in humans survival is at least as important - if not more - than its reproduction. Consider how humans behave under nonideal circumstances such as chronic stress or starvation. When a human experiences hard times and the body reacts, it doesn't increase libido; I'm quite certain in fact that the opposite occurs. What I'm trying to say is that at least to some extent the human body is programmed to preserve itself. Why would we think just because menopause occurs that this intrinsic self-preservation system would shut off?

[@chenilleoneil1289]

Finally someone asking the right questions.

[@KanadianRaven]

Imo, it boils down to elder leadership. A member of a group that knows the best places to eat, safest places to sleep AND can exert dominance when fighting breaks out among their younger members, in other words group cohesiveness, has distinct value. Males, historically were more likely to die from combatting intruders while being the primary protectors, or in other ways, such as hunting accidents. The gatherer female, as the secondary line of protection, was more likely to survive, thus being present to hand down knowledge, despite no longer producing young. Having to care for young would distract from those 'duties'.

[@phillrockman]

I'm not sure genes could even understand any of these causal relationships. It seems to me like pregnancy causes major changes to the body and as you get older, it just can't accommodate such change. What would be interesting to study is average menopause age over time vs average age of final birth over time.

[@elenakusevska6266]

I think both grandmothers and granfathers are super-helpful

[@stargazeronesixseven]

😊🙏 It is so fortunate to have Good Grandparents & Good Parents to take care & guide us when we were young but many in this world are not so fortunate ... So as an adult now ... We can make this world a little better by being a Good Person & to Do Good Deeds with Wisdom to the people around us! Spread Humility , Respect , Understanding , Tolerance , Fairness , Justice , Forgiveness & World Peace without Hatre & Prejudices! Treat others the Way We Wanted to be Treated! Stop the chains of Hate! The people that being accused of doing bad might be innocent , while the groups we've been supporting might be already ravaged by the cancers of evil! ... Use Mind-Flip of Sides , to See & Feel the Real Stuation ... To free onself from holding onto Wrong Concepts or Wrong Views that supported Wrong Actions that created Bad Karma! 🙏🕯🌷🌿🌎💖🕊

[@s.m.9871]

Maybe animals that are smart enough to stay alive long enough to reproduce and then get too old to reproduce, are also smart enough to keep living after. In combination with some of the other things? While there is no certain or discernible reason for organisms to stay alive after reproductive age, there also doesn’t seem to be selective pressures for them to die after reproductive age, otherwise natural selection would ostensibly select for that trait over time.

[@raynadelasal1365]

Grandmothers are so crucial to both survival and sanity they we’re unable to even fathom it.

[@phantomstrider]

The dancing grandpa 😂 dont know who does your stock footage but i love it 😄

[@UshioKiss]

I think it just goes to show that theres more to life than babies

[@miaomiaochan]

Tell that to the people that believe our main purpose in life is to pump out as many kids as possible while we still can because what's the use of being fertile and having a womb if you never make use of them...

[@chickensalad3535]

Agreed.

[@ratbirdplaceholder7022]

Shows how mysoginistic some scientists were too. "Hum dee dum, ooo i wonder, why dont women drop dead the second they cant produce offspring anymore? since that is a womans only purpose of course!" what an utterly dumb train of thought. 😂

[@nyanSynxPHOENIX]

This is the most clickbaity video title and picture, and I needed to figure out what the heck surprise video we get today. Only for you SciShow

[@fighttheevilrobots3417]

I think that when discussing this it's important to consider the millions of people who want to have children in their 40s and the sick, cruel joke it is that we are mocked or treated cruelly or coldly for trying despite the mean matter of fact "no you can't" attitude of many medical professionals, and many people in this comment section.

[@titandarknight2698]

Most likely because there holding onto old news. Medicine has allowed us to live longer and longer. Look younger, be more active and healthy at a much later date. Im pretty sure the whole kids in your 40's is going to matter even less in the future. Who knows? I mean we got artificial insemination, we may soon has artificial wombs(I think it already exits, pretty sure they tested it on pigs).

[@graceneilitz7661]

It is the truth that women in their 40s have a harder time getting pregnant and keeping the pregnancy. If you are trying to get pregnant in your 40s, good for you, but it's a disservice to sugarcoat its difficulties. Pregnancy is hard enough, being too young or old makes it harder. There is also a higher chance of disorders, similar to a first-cousin marriage. It's not that much higher, but it exists.

[@SuperGreatSphinx]

As of this moment, the wonderful electric grandmother moved into the lives of children and father. She became integral and important. She became the essence. As of this moment, they would never see lightning, never hear poetry read, never listen to foreign tongues without thinking of her. Everything they would ever see, hear, taste, feel would remind them of her. She was all life, and all life was wondrous, quick, electrical - like Grandma.

[@frunkenstein1057]

The clips of those happy grandpas retaining their ability to reproduce are hilarious 😂

[@retropulpmonkey]

It shows that this competitive edge is so huge, that it was an advantage eons ago. Even if the specifics of the duty aren't identical, the motives and actions of a learned woman, who is free to do what she choses, can shape the living world in innumerable ways.

[@ElicBehexan]

I hope we don't die when our hairs go grey, I've had grey hair since I was 12! I remember in my late 30s walking through the kitchen listening to my roommate - 6 years older - and her mother talk about their grey hair. (Mom: I have all this grey hair! Roomie: I have some too!) and as I walked through the room I said "I don't know what the two of you are talking about. I have more grey hair than the two of you put together." That shut them up!

[@Drakoriyan]

8:52 Unexpected tears; my grandma passed away 7 years ago, now. She was indeed very, very special.

[@anthonybeers]

Curious about elephants. Where the old female in the herd is essential to the survival of the herd.

[@mythology2467]

I love the clips they chose for the grandpas, it looks like they're dancing after hearing "you're the father" on the Morey show" while you talk about how they're still fertile

[@Veritas.0]

So, I'm going to say something mean, but bear with me... Life does not usually kill the organism if they've lost their purpose. The energy has been spent, (procreation, birth, growth, and procreation of their own) but why waste the results just because their purpose is gone. So in biological terms a 'grandmother' may not have a biological purpose, but it's not very many species where that organism suddenly withers and dies. There are a few, but they either perform one last role at the very end (spawning salmon) or the organism isn't very expensive in terms of resources (insects and the like) When it comes to larger organisms that were very expensive, it's pointless to waste what still exists. Now, having said that, Grandmothers are _very_ important socially. They serve as tradition and conservatism. A remembrance of ideas and customs that work. Most of that wealth is ignored today where progressivism is the polar opposite of traditionalism. Even in this information age a Grandmother can teach you things the internet can never deliver with her experience and compassion. (and some tough love, too)

[@amykonecny1265]

Have to say I was surprised this was still a question. In school 40 years ago I was taught that menopause happened because pregnancy takes a lot out of a person. That someone that keeps on having babies into the day she dies just means the last generation is also going to die. Figured this was settled by now

[@erronblack1]

Evolution is a mystery A small change that no one sees Clock makes a fool of history

[@lucasturney4269]

Worst Haiku ever. XD (Pro Tip: Save face by claiming it's a Senryu... ;)

[@domanicriley2412]

@@lucasturney4269 It's not a haiku. They're reciting lyrics from a wrestling theme song. I did look up Senryu and they seem pretty cool. Thanks for mentioning it.

[@DoggosAndJiuJitsu]

My mother is moving half way across the world to help take care of my kids; and my wife’s mother already does. 🤷🏻

[@Jaynevermore319]

Big shout out to all the grandparents out there! You guys rock!

[@chaotic_raisin]

it's amazing to me we're still under the impression "the purpose of an organism is to pass on its genes" an organism exists and persists through its adaptive evolution, it has no purpose it's just living in its nature

[@crc.agoodguy]

My mother and my father, all four of my grandparents, we're all totally awesome! Aunts and uncles great aunts and great uncles, I just wish I had met more of my ancestors because I think they were all awesome!

[@crissyhutto8409]

Passing along long learned skills could be why humans specifically and other animals with this sort of trait tend to have some very long lived members of their species. But it is only a shallowly educated guess 🤷‍♀️ It’s still my favorite one though.

[@huldu]

There is something to that but we live longer because of medicine in general and well being not because we've evolved that way. There are many animals that in our care can live much longer than they would in the wild. I think looking at our closest relatives that still live in the wild will have the best answers to why we are the way we are. I'm sure at some point we were very similar to them in more ways than one. Then again even in that regard there are variations monkeys, apes etc can be so different. In general males are aggressive and that is something that translates well into humans.

[@crissyhutto8409]

right but I was thinking of a more sociological analysis of why higher thinking animals of all sorts seem to live longer, it may not be applicable to all examples but whales and some birds come to mind.@@huldu

[@useraam]

Watching this took a lot of effort. I didn't finish My HS bio/sex ed course taught that scar build up from the follicular/ovulation phases of the menstrual cycle gets bad enough that they stop being able to ovulate. This would mean that not having babies would make menopause happen sooner

[@TrenSteggell]

What about the possibility that giving birth as an old lady is incredibly dangerous and hard on the body and their chances of survival would be lower, AKA natural selection. Simple and straightforward while using Occam’s razor

[@castleanthrax1833]

That's not an example of natural selection. Natural selection can be described as members of a species who are better suited to their environment, live longer and have more offspring, and, as such, pass on their genes to a greater number.

[@Nikedemos]

2:22 what a perfect piece of stock footage to illustrate the point: you just KNOW this guy smashes on a regular basis!

[@lostusaslambus]

It never ceases to amaze me how misogynistic science tends to be

[@codename495]

It’s sad but at least it’s changing!!

[@carlosandleon]

Because facts don’t care about your feelings.

[@PetrSojnek]

@@codename495 note: she said science, not scientists :D

[@lostusaslambus]

@carlosandleon Nor yours, thank goodness.

[@carlosandleon]

@@lostusaslambus ;)

[@mr88cet]

7:34 - yes, the extended-mothering hypothesis makes sense to me: I have assumed that the long period of non-reproductivity in humans (women) was _at least partly_ driven by humans having unusually-long childhoods. That is, it takes 18ish years for humans to fully mature, so there would be reproductive value in having at least 18 years of not producing new kids to finish raising the kids they’d already given birth to.

[@rainydaylady6596]

I asked my dog's vet if they go through menopause. She said no one had ever asked that before. Lol

[@Quokkat7]

well… do they?

[@queencleopatra007]

What was the answer?

[@ratbirdplaceholder7022]

​@VidalChannel the answer would be no because dogs dont menstrate in the first place, they just slowly lose fertility over time.

[@TheYoungWolfI]

You say the end what I was thinking the whole time, almost word for word. I was thinking it might just be biology wearing down, like how you don't die when you get grey hair. Science is often about asking the right questions, and most questions I think have basic and I guess unsatisfying answers. The answer is usually "doesn't matter".

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[@mastakoho]

I am disturbed by the amount of happy dancing grandpa B-roll used in this video…

[@seth2854]

I always think menopause is evolutions way of saying "you breed too much, stop it" 😂

[@zakosist]

But then there wouldnt be menopause for those that never had children or only had one in the first place

[@ratbirdplaceholder7022]

​@@zakosist it also depends on the cause of the infertility. Like if it was just a uterus issue then the ovaries and egg production would still go on as normal. For people who are born without ovaries, they never go through puberty, and people who got their ovaries removed, they go through instant menopause and its recommended they do hormone replacement therapy so they dont get those menopause related problems too fast.

[@rebeccaledford8202]

I think they are overlooking the incredible asset a non-breeding segment of a population can be. Females that survive the breeding period clearly have culture that needs to be passed on, meaning knowledge and skills. Freed from the burden of breeding, they can pay attention to so much more within the environment and the species. And many species, esp. herd animals, have older female leaders.

[@davidpolttila5270]

One must not merely regard the genes, but also the memes.

[@rhael42]

the DNA of the soul

[@hefoxed]

The aspect of menupasuse where estrogen significantly reduces is well, significant to consider. It's not clear from this video (unless I missed it) if those 28% other species go through full menupasuse or just stop releasing eggs -- e.g. as far as I can tell, menupause is distinct type of reproductive senescence, going through reproductive senescence doesn't require going through menupause Been looking into studies around gonadectomy, which also reduces hormones (full spay/neuter when used on pets). There's a connection with anxiety and depression and reduced serotonin, which can significantly affect behavior. It also affects libido. With the grandmother hypothesis (which as far as I can tell, this doesn't really debunk -- menupasuse still could be part of reason humans got smart, along with other factors), having a grandma that is more anxious/needs more contact with children but also less sexual may be advantageous. (For pets, I suggest people consider hormone sparing sterililzation over gonadectomy based. There issues in research in pets, particularly dogs: significant confounding bias due to socieocomic factors [intact dogs are more often in low income households, which affects ability to pay for vet care, training, time at home, fence quality, housing outside vs inside, dog being a guard/work dog, breed preferences, size preferences, etc], there's this anxiety issue (which may cause aggression), there's no research on depression in this regard, etc. With all those issues, it's not clear that it actually net helps health and behavior and well being in dogs, tho female cats gonadectomy likely does help lifespan due to mammary cancer being more deadly and harder to treat, but cannot find gonadectomy anxiety/depression studies for cats.... Very disappointing that public policy and law hasn been based on such biased research, not great for medical trust.)

[@p.a.w.sthetravelinggamer6750]

Everyone else here:this makes sense. Grandma helps raise kids. Me: I know my mom. He isn't helping raise my kids. :|

[@shakeyj4523]

Ghosting is a fad now. You don't count in this discussion as that is an aberration. Plus, how long has your mom been a "he"?

[@leonelgaldinomonteiro4783]

Hedonismo moderno. É uma degeneração

[@madwaltz9812]

In explaining why female mammals might lose reproductive capabilities with age while males don't, there are 3 main differences between males and females: 1. Males have parental uncertainty while females don't. 2. Females have much higher costs to reproduce. (pregnancy, childbirth, nursing) 3. Females have much lower reproductive potential (females have to go through pregnancy for each child/litter, while males can theoretically have as many children as they have willing partners). As is touched on at the end of the video, the reason why males maintain their reproductive capabilities while females don't is probably primarily due to #2, but #3 might also play a part. Lower reproductive potential means there is a lower potential benefit for females to maintain their reproductive capabilities later in life, in addition to the added costs. It's also perhaps worth pointing out that females usually to take a more pronounced role in care giving than males. This is probably due to the 3 differences mentioned above encouraging females to invest more heavily in the offspring they already have when compared to males. So a mother dying while a child is still young is typically going to be worse for the child's chances of survival than the father dying.

[@TragoudistrosMPH]

Cultural ideas around idealistic 'Progression' and the Great Chain of Being lead to too much "why" instead of "how" evolutionary traits exist. Survival of the fittest rather than survival of the survivors... What happened not why what happened was the best or most ideal.

[@cg1906]

One need not be exceptional to be fit for passing on genes, nor does one need particularly unique or spectacular traits. But it doesn't mean that fitness is useless

[@TragoudistrosMPH]

@@cg1906 yep, exactly my point :) If you look at their belief structure and culture back when they developed these evolutionary theories, they thought fitness and being exceptional were synonymous. That's why you'll notice some science communicators speak about exceptional features "your grandmother is special" and fitness in a generic sense "post menopausal survival is simply mammalian". You can see how the hypothesis was reevaluated from older to newer thinking (which tends to be objective.)

[@EterPuralis]

Why would you die right after having your last child, that'd be so impractical

[@scotthenrie5148]

A healthy thyroid is essential for brain development during pregnancy. *Which includes magnesium!* (Mg_oxide is the least absorbed form)

[@nobody.of.importance]

Simple solution: Evolution aimed for the longest reproductive period it could, and had no reason to select against people living past the age that their reproductive systems break down. I can't believe this is even a discussion.

[@genzo454]

Yeah, makes sense to me. Evolution isn't "Survival of the fittest", its "Survival of the good enough"

[@mitchellsheppard2998]

Could be a simpler explanation and that is because the lord loves us and doesn’t just look at us as shallow material beings meant to reproduce

[@autumnrain249]

My theory is that a female that lives to an advanced age is more likely to have developed wisdom that allowed her to survive which is passed on through teaching rather than genetics. Since pregnancy gets riskier with age, her wisdom becomes more valuable than being able to reproduce as she gets older. The teaching of this wisdom doesn't have to be to her own descendants but any member of her species, increasing survival chances for not just her lineage but her community. This would explain why menopause is more common in animals that are social and intelligent.

[@lekhakaananta5864]

I'm going with the last, and the null, hypothesis. That is to say, there's negligible selection pressure _for_ having reproductive senescence; it exists because of deterioration of the reproductive system with age, and this deterioration isn't strongly selected against because of other things related to age already making reproduction unlikely and thus fixing the deterioration in reproduction itself would have very little effect.

[@Huntanor]

This model is best with a wide scale view of evolution as well. Now that we understand that the majority of mamals have menstrual ceaseation regardless of other traits, it's much more likely that it's a non-detrimental consequence of our special kind of reproduction and thus unlikely to create evolutionary pressure. Compound that with it being a completely post reproductive issue, it has more or less 0 relevance to survivability. Since reproduction ending in death isn't a trait for us, it should be assumed that if the mechanism ended, the subject would continue. After that, social pressure and other factors would decide grandma's fate.

[@catherinemori4496]

Grandmothers are a rather recent phenomenon. Before 1900, our life span was incredibly short. In 1900, yippee! We got to live till 49! So……..

[@inflikktion]

I thought this was more to do with infant mortality rates affecting average age span? If you managed to survive childhood you were likely okay, not as long lived as now, but a lot more than the idea of everyone dying in their forties.

[@lnplum]

Not being fertile in old age sounds like a good survival strategy. Pregnancies are actually extremely risky and can be detrimental to health, not what you want to happen to your body when you're in physical decline. Also most mammals are communal so parental uncertainty doesn't really matter as everyone benefits from helping the group.

[@angelahull9064]

Smoking and drug abuse is detrimental to health. Pregnancy is not a disease, but a potentially debilitating developmental process. But when you survive this process, the net benefits contribute to the health of the species. Thank God for modern medicine to allow us to improve outcomes and and decrease maternal mortality rates. Right now, the greater obstacle towards the health of mothers is not investing better care for them in the first place. The medical system blames mothers for poor outcomes. Society is not interested in adapting for pregnant women, but is more interested in making women more like men, by making it as undesirable and unfeasible as possible to bear children while working. Childlessness is more "productive" for increasing profit.

[@titandarknight2698]

@@angelahull9064 I was agreeing with you until the last part. Freedom of choice. Women can be childless or childfull. furthermore, more workers/kids leads to more profits.

[@jeremyreff6511]

My grandmother is 101, that's not evolution; That's modern medicine. Thank you Science.

[@vila777_]

it’s interesting how people seem to forget that viagra doesn’t exist in the wild. men have got a natural off switch too in the form of ED, it’s just that their reproductive system is far less complicated so it’s easier to turn back on.

[@oldscratch3535]

ED generally isn't from aging. Its from poor lifestyle choices.

[@vila777_]

@@oldscratch3535research seems to say the opposite. aging is the variable most strongly associated with it. believe me, there has been absolute piles of ED research, it’s more credible than anything on menopause due to the sheer volume. more meta-analyses then there are on childhood cancer at this rate. you are right in that it is more prevalent in men with poor physical and emotional health, but it is not the sole cause.

[@vila777_]

@@oldscratch3535granted, it is hard to pin down since it may arise as a symptom of other health issues. but you could argue those health issues, even as a result of aging, are the “off switch” that decides a man is no longer fit for reproduction.

[@oldscratch3535]

@@SanguisLunae13 You don't know how erections work. Testosterone isn't what gives men erections. You may want to look into what estrogen is for in the male body. An example I would give is that MTF transgender people who still have a penis are still capable of getting an erection and ejaculating even though their test levels are crushed into the dirt by cross sex hormones.

[@oldscratch3535]

@@vila777_ I can agree with that. I would argue that most men with ED problems COULD turn their switch back on by implementing some lifestyle changes. We have an "off switch", but its not comparable to what happens to females as menopause isn't really reversible to my knowledge.

[@dmnddog7417]

OMG, the old dudes dancing around were hilarious!

[@reggie2685]

I think biological aging is probably the most realistic explanation on the whole (with or without evolutionary basis). If menopause/reproductive senescence was an evolutionary characteristic, we might assume as the body aged and became less able to withstand pregnancy (carry healthy offspring to term and survive childbirth) maternal mortality might've been higher and thus fewer offspring survived the loss of the mother. In that case it wouldn't be unreasonable that the few females of a species that lost fertility as they aged died less frequently and had more existing offspring survive and reproduce, passing on that trait until it became the norm. This assumes females were essentially fertile until death and if that wasn't the case and species experienced reproductive senescence from the start, aging probably just didn't lend to ideal conditions to conceive and carry.

[@ratbirdplaceholder7022]

There is a saying among biologists, called Occam's Razor, the easiest answer is most likely the correct one. This is probably one of those instances.

[@emilyharkness9685]

This is exactly what I want to research. I’ve been fascinated with this concept for years. The percentage of our lives post menopausal is significantly longer than other species, so there’s gotta be something there.

[@ratbirdplaceholder7022]

Humans have particularly harder pregnancies and births than other animals, and humans cant abort pregnancy whever conditions become unfavorable like other animals. Its all or nothing. So it makes sence to keep they baby gamble as short as possible when the human is most fit for carrying a pregnancy and then stop the gamble if she survives long enough. A fully functional, alive, member of society that may live another 30+ years is far more valuable than a dead mom and dead baby.

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

I don't see how this is a problem. Maybe the fertility just naturally decreases with age as the egg 🥚 cells begin to decay. It is just that in social species, there is a selective pressure to live beyond your natural fertility to contribute to the group, making its survival and thus the survival of your grandchildren better. It would even work for your nephews/nieces and siblings. So the selection pressure really just supports de-aging adaptations in general, as it improves the group's productivity massively.

[@oldcowbb]

if i remember correctly, the number of eggs are determined at the moment your are born. so its not a problem of aging

[@LGrian]

Menopause is independent process from the natural decline in gamete quality. Men’s sperm quality declines too, albeit not quite as dramatically in middle age, but their testes don’t just abruptly stop producing sperm. If that were the case, we would see men who are infertile (or effectively infertile) due to poor sperm quality going through menopause.

[@LGrian]

⁠@@oldcowbbit’s not the number but the quality that matters for fertility generally. Like half the eggs you’re born with are gone by the time you’re done with puberty, but it doesn’t matter cause most female babies are born with 1 million+. Remember you only need 1 good one for each ovulation. Most women who have trouble conceiving before their 40s never had typical ovulation in the first place. Egg quality really only becomes the primary issue around 45, but also people are unique. Some people are born with very few eggs that die off before they ever menstruate, while others can still conceive naturally at 50

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

I know menopause is different, but they were talking about reproductive senescence in other animals not tied to menopause. And sperm are created constantly, whereas with egg cells, babies are born with all the egg cells they will ever have. If the eggs 🥚 cells decayed over time it would explain the other animals. Thus, a special reason is only needed for humans and the other animals with menopause. @@LGrian

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

But those very egg 🥚 cells could decay over time as they spend a long time in the body.@@oldcowbb