The Inevitable Curse of Strategy Homogenization in Fire Emblem

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[@Amelanduil]

The "Given the opportunity, the players will optimize the fun out of the game" quote remains as relevant as ever

[@david__1457]

unless you are playing disgaea, where the optimization IS the fun

[@thechugg4372]

That's mostly because when the game is too hard, optimization is forced on the player.

[@icarue993]

Where is it from? I vaguely remember Yahtzee from ZP mentioning it.

[@woomod2445]

@@icarue993 Mark Rosewater, Lead Designer of MTG. It's the designers job to make optimal play actually fun.

[@littlebloodymooneporo]

@@david__1457 half the fun of disgaea is to see how long the number showed on screen afterall

[@Anti-i25]

"...and that's why you should kill your units." was the implied ending btw

[@benzoFE88]

First time fire emblem player: “I am going to use est flunky” Fire emblem players playing the same game for a 100th time: “I am going to use the most optimal unit to complete this map in 2 turns quicker than last time” Fire emblem players playing fire emblem a 1000th time: “I am going to use est flunkie”

[@ussgordoncaptain]

Fire emblem players playing FE for the 10,000th time "I'm going to use est flunky to save a turn on this map by giving her swap"

[@williamdittmann9281]

This is why I play Fire Emblem games/difficulties blind for the first playthrough. After the first playthrough I don’t really mind cheese cause I’ve already experienced it pretty much intended once, and any cheese strats you do find that first time just make you feel clever

[@Edagui97]

Same here, except for checking out the nuances of the class systems, since those seem to radically change in every recent entry. Engage is also an exception, since Excelblem was just too fast compared to my local mail and I couldn't resist his videos.

[@migueeeelet]

Yeah, and in subsequent playthroughs you enjoy the more meta aspects such as "how long can I get away with this strategy?"

[@rdrrr]

Sometimes it's fun to use Shadow Dragon's busted-ass Warp staff for things other than instant boss detonation Airdropping Generals to gank squishy units is hilarious

[@deathrawkboy]

It's easy to forget most players are not meta-gamers. They're playing the game blind as intended. Stumbling over a good strategy is a reward. But even in the focused community, approaches are varied. You have LTC, ironman, 0% growths, ranked play, drafts, slow play/turtling, completionists, etc. Each has a different strategy approach. I often meet people in the FE community who define themselves by not adhering to meta strategies.

[@zenronez1158]

Remember the only right and intended way to play these games is to build an army and trust nobody and use dark spikes against dark knights.

[@shanegiorgio4713]

Only on Gameboy Advance

[@hyperm8]

The best example is basically almost all of Three Houses which can be cheesed with warp and stride and almost every map being defeat the boss definitely doesn't help either

[@EdwardoFE]

you don’t understand I’m not like other people who cheese with Warp/Stride Swift Strikes Wyvern Sylvain, I use Warp/Stride Swift Strikes Wyvern Ferdinand instead!

[@mr.stuffdoer8483]

Well that’s your own damn fault for seeing “kill the boss” and not “rout the enemy.” I genuinely don’t understand the logic of “I used the best possible strategy, but this game was too easy, 6/10.”

[@SleepyBrady]

Clearly you've never played Blue Lions. The strategy there is to, send Dimitri and kill every last one of them with Bat Vantage/Wrath and retribution. If every single enemy is not dead then clearly you just suck at fire emblem for not maximizing your exp gain

[@hyperm8]

@@SleepyBradyYeah but don't lie, during the Fhirdiad chapter you warped him next to Cornelia and had him end the map in 1 turn

[@ninjakirby777]

@@hyperm8and miss out on all the exp and items hell no

[@mystic5185]

Fully agree with all this stuff. I much prefer using units and classes I like and finding how to make them work rather than just using "the good one". Its so tiring seeing all the same stuff over and over again.

[@TheNuts1225]

It always makes me sad when I see someone play Conquest and they don't use Arthur. Yeah, he sucks, but if you can put up with him, he totally wrecks ass as a berserker with a killer axe/great club.

[@vsnake8663]

@@TheNuts1225 Honestly, what makes me wanna use Arthur every time is a combination of his design, listening to him speak, and the fun I get out of making him into a Hero with the bulk of an axe fighter.

[@CoqueiroLendario]

When i decided to play Tearring saga, the wiki insisted that Norton was a bad unit through and through, but being an armour knight lover that i am i didn't let that convince me and... damn he is actually one of the best armour knights i've ever seen, dude tanks a lot and also has increased crit chance as his HP drops, making him a really really really good chokepoint holder or arena fighter, since the game shows what you're going to be against.

[@mystic5185]

@TheNuts1225 I recently did a conquest lunatic iron man. Had Arthur *almost* the entire game. He was a HOOOOORRIBLE unit but I love him so much. One of the funniest characters in the series. Used him up until he was killed on Fuga's wild ride. Now I'm on the 3rd to last map with like barely any units left.

[@Abundy]

That's why I try to play every game blind for the first time. Playing Engage Maddening on release was very fun and pretty challenging, now with knowledge of optimal strategies, updates and DLCs available it's much easier so you have to impose some kind of handicaps on yourself to keep it interesting. But pretty much every FE game allows for degenerate strats that allow you to basically eliminate most risk and difficulty, I still think Engage is one of the better ones in the series in how it gives you a decent challenge while giving you a lot of tools to work with.

[@SethJV]

Why is Excelblem always right everytime he says something about Fire Emblem? I'm starting to think that he's not human.

[@GerudoKing_]

Maybe that’s why he wears the mask. To hide the fact he isn’t human. 🤔

[@SimonSaysDeath]

Surprised it took you that long to realize

[@iamtheshim]

A very similar experience I've had is playing the Valkyria Chronicles series. Nearly every map (that isn't a rout condition) is "best" played by taking your best scout, loading them up with defense orders, and just running past everything. It's effective, it's fast, it gets you the highest ranks because the game only cares about turns taken, and it's just *so boring*. I have _way_ more fun playing the maps "as intended", dealing with many of the challenges and obstacles and using all my tools to seize victory. We tend to optimize and refine strategies that work, but for me, at least, that can really suck all the fun out of the game. I struggle a lot more with Fire Emblem, especially at higher difficulties, but warpskipping everything really just turns it into a more of a slog than all that combat would be. For people who enjoy optimizing and speedrunning and "solving" these games, I hope they have a good time, but I really look for something else in games.

[@CyclonSilver]

I'd say it's even worse in VC really(VC1 specifically, only one I've played right now). Giving direct incentive to avoid engagement and none to actually play through things is a big mistake, imo.

[@Snow_Fire_Flame]

VC is worse than FE on that, IMO. In FE, you are usually at least rewarded for doing it the long and tough way with more XP compared to warp-skipping to the boss. VC rewarding only turn-count was just a strange and baffling decision, since I agree that the game is much more fun played out as a tactical battle rather than as some sort of bad Metal Gear variant. (FE is also at least not remotely realistic, but the mood in VC is a little more serious and more modern. Is one Scout waving a new flag really that devastating? In real WWI, plenty of times that trenches were briefly taken, then immediately lost again due to not having sufficient forces to hold the new conquest against reinforcements.)

[@robertobrosful]

Thank God they fixed It by Valkirya Chronicles 4. Loved the first one, but 4 Is just Better on every sense

[@Pikaton659]

@@robertobrosful Is it really that bad in VC1? Because I just used super soldier Minerva to beat most of the maps in VC4, seems very cheesable to me

[@strategicperson95]

​@@Pikaton659 VC4 is even more cheesable once you get the Valkryria Units, granted that is post game DLC content. But maps that gave me difficulty not involving the Valkyrur antagonist weren't so hard. Sure they cost 2 CP, but they are practically unkillable and position them amongst the enemy ranks and they can intercept and clear a path for the other units. Granted though, I do like experimenting in finding my own way to get top rank without too much cheese strats.

[@PragmaticAntithesis]

This is why I generally play Fire Emblem on the lower difficulties and prioritise immersing myself over playing optimally. I like role playing in my role playing game.

[@marcoasturias8520]

As if someone couldn't immerse themselves in hard difficulties

[@GrugGangGrugGang]

@@marcoasturias8520 It is significantly harder to do so when you are worried about not seeing large chunks of the game because of suboptimal play. Even when it isn't the case, it's very easy to feel that way, which pushes people to seek guidance additional guidance.

[@ivanlagayacrus1891]

@@marcoasturias8520 harder difficulty necessitates the narrowing of viable strategies to be difficult, so you have to engage in a good amount of optimizing play, which kind of inherently strips away that immersive 'im a tactical genius who can think and plan on the fly' feeling, because you couldnt, you reset a dozen times because you got stuck and ended up rigging a crit for the boss kill anyway

[@katieyaryes]

Elincia's gambit is the best example (imo) of a map that is incredibly rewarding and fun if played by developer intention but is ruined by painfully easy cheese strats. Still probably my favorite map though, I love the drama even more than Conquest ch 10 or Thracia ch 20 when it's played as intended but those maps are much more interesting challenges when cheese strats are used

[@toniconge7003]

I love how Elincia's Gambit has "optimal" play on two sides. 1. Send your super strong unit over to defeat the boss on turn 2. 2. Undeploy everyone and just have Elincia camp out the defend tile for the entire map.

[@brendanwiley253]

This gives me the same vibes as a video I watched telling people that if you're bored of Sonic games you should try playing how they were originally conceived which is to play for a high score and not the lowest completion time.

[@marcoasturias8520]

Sonic the fastest being alive is actually a ring addict. I'd call that false advertisement!

[@SuperSoniChaosKG]

I agree with this video. Due to Fire Emblem's relatively simple math (in comparison to other SRPGs), creating optimal strategies is only a matter of time and knowledge - which is why I don't think it's a coincidence that every FE Emblem game (except 1 and 2, I believe) has at least one high-quality randomizer. The nature of a randomized playthrough, and why they are so common in this franchise specifically, is that the players basically start each playthrough with very little to no knowledge of the game they are about to play, as every aspect of the game from characters, enemies and items can be altered. Ironically, this forces the introduction of new strategies and methods of play that would simply not happen in vanilla runthoughs. The players basically have to relearn what "good fire emblem" looks like on a run by run basis. It's why I love them!

[@Fizz-Q]

Fe1's is that crits are inevitable and you can't escape the fact someone will fucking explode, eventually.

[@CyclonSilver]

I disagree that the math is the reason. On paper you'd think so, but the way it usually stacks is that games with more complex formulas and numbers are easier to optimize rather than the opposite, probably because they're harder to balance. While they're not about reaching thresholds usually, relying on strong tools requires less forethought of consideration of how to deal with opposition, only the knowledge of how to make your numbers so much bigger that you can just automatically win. And like, what's a developer supposed to do about that ? Usually they can't sell exclusively to mathematicians. A good example in FE would be Awakening, which by all accounts has (slightly) bigger numbers and some more complex variables in place compared to series average, and it just devolves into building a god unit and never looking at enemy stats again.

[@a.e.5923]

I actually had a very interesting interaction with this very concept. I’m playing thracia rn and just did chapter 6. While looking at the items/recruit for the map to plan ahead the wiki mentioned having asbel use a pure water to pump his magic allowing him to completely atomize the starting death army, a strategy I probably wouldn’t have done without outside influence, but it also showed me that pure waters, a mediocre and nice item in most games, are insanely powerful.

[@CarissaNomadic]

This ends up happening in Pokémon nuzlocke, too. This video is just really on point!

[@Sousabird]

If Nintendo didn't want me to ruin the game with overoptimization, they shouldn't have let me build Robin with Galeforce, Vantage, Astra, and Lifesteal.

[@DarkJ1425]

To be fair, in my very first play through I never seen Galeforce and had no idea of any of the optimizations because I never looked up anything. When I finally did look up “Awakening meta” my jaw dropped when I saw those broken ass skills. You curious what was my “broken” strategy that I ended up with back then? It was Tharja & Libra combo.

[@segafreak2000]

You mean Robin with Vantage, Vengeance, Spendsthrift, Galeforce or Wrath depending on gender, and Tomefare or Limit Break depending on DLC availability, paired with a forged Aversa's Night.

[@Maragidyne555]

hold on, lifetaker AND vantage? isn't that counterintuitive??

[@segafreak2000]

@@Maragidyne555 Yeah, hence why if you go the Vantage + healing route, you pair it with Aversa's Night. Healing with Vantage does make sense because sometimes there are enemies that can just tank through your first vantage hit, so you want to have a bit of an HP cushion. But Lifetaker doesn't even trigger during the enemy phase, lol.

[@anon3535]

Sombron strategy isn't cheese imo - it's reward for planning shield breakage and your damage turn. Devs explicitly wrote it in. It's not the result of synergy between different mechanics like the other examples.

[@Excelblem]

I think a compromise was made by the devs to intentionally leave in a loophole/"cheese" to bypass the other dark emblem phases. This is a bit strange because I think they had conflicting objectives here: they designed the entire fight but made a lot of it "skippable" so people wouldn't get stuck and be mad. But a built in and obvious loophole is still a loophole in my opinion. Regardless the most difficult way to do the fight (taking out all 12 dark emblems) is likely never even considered by most people playing Maddening, and my point is that most people tend to never even attempt that harder path.

[@zhoufang996]

It's definitely a shame though because beating all 12 dark emblems is fun. When I played engage I really felt that you had to engage (har) the game on its own terms somewhat to get the most fun out of it.

[@Manavine]

I blame Rhea Sliver Snow for them writing in this loophole. They likely didn't want to piss off the players with yet another nigh unkillable boss again

[@thomasquesada7248]

@@Manavinewell at least sombron doesn’t have miracle

[@jollygator9080]

@@Excelblem I understand your point is that the optimal strategy is boring/lame, I agree it stifles creativity. Although, I hesitate to call them cheese. When I think of cheese I think of beating a difficult boss through an unconventional strategy, when you would not be able to beat them otherwise. When players rush down Sombron, would they not be able to defeat the other emblems if they wanted to?

[@jwilson14]

I believe your thoughts could apply to a lot of SRPGs in fact. I've had similar thoughts with Yggdra Union or even The Banner Saga where the optimization and online guides can kind of trivialize the game from the intended difficulty that the developers had in mind. The right way to play these games is to go in blind and experience the chaos the way the developers wanted you to experience it.

[@EruwaYuril]

Full agree. I actively avoid seeing guides/videos for games I play, especially strategy ones like Fire Emblem. My first playthrough of Engage was in Maddening fully blind, and I had a lot of fun figuring out good builds with my units and struggling, but ultimately coming on top, on the harder maps, especially the DLC ones if you're like me and fight most of them at the endgame when the enemies are at max level. My main enjoyment is not just beating the game, but rather fully experiencing the levels the devs created. Even now, I'm aware of the Astra Storm/Warp staves cheeses, but I personally would never use them in a normal playthrough because that trivializes a lot of things. In a similar vein, one of my all time favorite games, Library of Ruina, has guides all around about how to build the most efficient deck for each given fight, and has common builds that are regarded as "best in slot". Someone I know easily beat the game by following deck building guides, but honestly nothing beats spending hours thinking about possible deck and skill compositions, and is the primary reason why I love the game so much; the experience I went through is unlike any other, and that was only possible because I had to think, learn and adapt all by myself. That's not to say you cannot use guides if you want/need, but there will be a difference in the experience you get vs going in blind. I personally don't think beating Sombron in 1 barrier break is a "cheese" strat since that's just the common sense thing to do (I didn't even know more mini-bosses spawned lol), but I do see where you're coming from. Maybe on my next playthrough I will only break 1 HP bar per cycle or something and experience the map in its entirety.

[@zDonut]

So in summary, we should fuck around and find out? I like that idea

[@Wizzkidwas]

I noticed how much easier engage felt in my 2nd and further playthroughs, but I thought that was more just that I knew what shenanigans would happen in the game and prepare accordingly, and then I realised that's kinda the entire point of optimising a run lmao

[@voss134]

one way to circumvent this issue from the developer side of things could be to randomize certain aspects of maps, that way the player wouldn't necessarily be able to just wiki search the best strategy online and replicate it 100% the same way. I think this would actually be really fun to see, at least on specialized difficulty modes. Reinforcements could come from different parts of the map, enemy units could have varying stats/placements, different equipment, etc.

[@ragna2077]

Personally I think while getting some tips/ideas for your playthrough or map is fine. You run into this issue if you overly focus on finding the most "optimized" ways to beat things by following the work complied together by internet. Since the power difference from a regular playthrough to a highly optimized one is almost not the same game. I think that to curb it: 1. Better map/encounter design. Sometimes the temptation is way too high to skip the map is that it's a complete slug and mess to play the map in the "intended" way. 2. Better balance, if you curb the power of the top end of things. You don't have to assume every player will go for it to so you don't need to make mega difficult/slog maps to compensate. 3. Limit the overpowered things so players have to choose. If you only get let's say 5 uses of warp the entire game, you have to pick and choose which maps to use it on if at all. Then if you do some super hard maps might take multiple warps.

[@dangodoom6156]

I feel like the 2nd/3rd playthrough of a Fire Emblem game is the most enjoyable as you know enough about the game to navigate collecting resources and making your desired squad, while at the same time not quite knowing the most optimal way to handle each encounter and generally experimenting with more of the tools in your kit. On a 1st playthrough you are more likely to run into issues like having too few late game units or not enough utility in staves/skills, so you end using turtle strategies to limp over the finishing line while also fishing for low% crits to get in enough damage. Also on the other hand, having many playthroughs in a given game, you start to see flaws within the game itself and you start to narrow down strategies because there is little need to experiment because you already know by that point what strats actually work and are worth the time investment.

[@radiantherooftellius1138]

Thank u for the info excelblem, very informative

[@DarkAuraLord]

Playing the game the way the devs intended is why Iron man runs are so much fun. He's spittin facts here, folks.

[@paladinslash4721]

Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game -Soren Johnson

[@duusu2608]

That is so true. Just play the game for fun. I loved in my last Birthright run to just run 1 or 2 captured units along my team, because they are ... expendable. (Marth would be proud) I even captured an innocent shrine maiden, because I thought the enemies will surely prioritse her over everything

[@emptyaccount9647]

This is why I hate the difficulty knob-slobbing some people do with this series. Beating a game isn't particularly difficult in of itself, and it's more fun to play as inoptimally as possible. I recently played 3H without the Monastery, and it was the most fun I had with the game.

[@thomasquesada7248]

Hate to break the fun but I don’t think many people will disagree that 3H without the monastery is funnier than the intended way

[@emptyaccount9647]

@@thomasquesada7248 You silly goose. Break wasn't in 3H, it's from Engage.

[@marcoasturias8520]

Dunno mate, I like finding a good solution to a good problem. If all problems can be solved by all queries, it's just not fun anymore. I'm not saying I'm too smart for low difficulties, just that low difficulties are too easy to give me fun. That's why the devs must balance their games!

[@emptyaccount9647]

@@marcoasturias8520 Nah, I totally get that. It's just that the games are so unbalanced that I have to actively kneecap myself to have fun.

[@MarziuzEvans]

As someone who usually never looks up guides on first playthroughs and almost allways go in blind, i agree. The first time experience would be worse if i looked up guides for strategy, but FE games like FE6, FE12 and FE3H have ambush spawns. Ambush spawns are horrible for new players and only incentivise looking up guides more. Especialy if there is no turnwheel/devine pulse. Personally i would have played through FE6 without a guide.

[@CyclonSilver]

I agree with the sentiment and have been avoiding tools and units I deem... simplify the experience too much for years now, but I think it's difficult to establish what the devs intend unless they specifically say it. After all, they programmed the warp staff into their games, not the players, and more recently they've been selling us dlc that typically trivializes the challenge considerably. It's also why I can't blame the playerbase too much (though I still do on occasions), especially not for discussing what's optimal in a strategy game. The games are what they are. It doesn't require much foresight to see what including something like bonded shield would entail, and they could even patch out whatever they take issue with post-release.

[@CharlesChaldea]

I also enjoy playing these games with certain limitations. Playthroughs like that modify the experience slightly, making it a bit less routine. I had one playthrough where we sold off every Seal we got, meaning no one ever changed classes or promoted, as well as one where Robin didn't gain a point of experience throughout the whole game. Actually, I think those two may have been the same playthrough... it was a surreal experience to see Robin appearing in cutscenes but not in gameplay unless he was force-deployed. Even then, I didn't give him any weapons, so his only possible contributions were Pair Up stats, Dual Guards and being used as a tempting target. Unrelated to Fire Emblem, I also have a playthrough of Xenoblade Chronicles on the 3DS in the works where we sell off every piece of armo(u)r we get that doesn't come pre-equipped on a character. The intent is to see how far in the game we can get while having everyone wearing their starting armo(u)r, but sometimes a fight will demand of the party that they swap their limited gear pool around between them to get stats where they need to be. It's fun, everyone should try it.

[@jvts8916]

There's other games where this is more extreme, with Disgaea in particular making metagaming and duping a case of "do you want to experience the postgame at a not excruciating speed?" Disgaea 5 holds a special place in my heart, but the way I had to ditch the characters I had gotten attached to (except Usalia, that one was my bad because she stays strong) to farm more efficiently using a single generic Sage because they have an exclusive attack that hits the entire map. Another case of this that sticks in my mind is the hololive DLC in 6, which lets you play as your favourite idols... as long as they're Polka and no one else, because she's locked in the only magic oriented class that can keep up with the best physical builds.

[@soapsatellite]

Wait, there's Hololive girls in Disgaea?

[@jvts8916]

​@@soapsatellite there is in 6, but it's disappointing given they're represented by borderline recolors of generics. Also the selection is a little odd: Fubuki as a Prinny, Flare as a psychic, Watame as a minotaur, Polka as a witch and Rushia as a succubus.

[@yousquiddingme]

I didn't know about the Sombron cheese strat when I first played and I thought it was quite a fun, challenging battle.

[@Dakress23]

Now that you bring it up, I think 3H's Nemesis is Engage's Sombron but done right. Yes, you can technically cheese his barrier gimmick just like Sombron's, but unlike the latter, OHKO-ing Nemesis with all his barriers and Elites alive in the hardest difficulties requires a ton of set-up and preparation to actually pull it off, thus actually making the whole process of cheesing Nemesis all the more satisfying in practice.

[@CyclonSilver]

Eh. At the end of the day what you get in planning(which really, isn't that much) you lose in satisfying execution, since Nemesis is a OHKO strat while Sombron at least uses one's entire team, or close to it. Can't say I agree.

[@Dakress23]

@@CyclonSilver I say that's debatable. Setting up the OHKO for Nemesis requires planning your set up and the unit which will deliver the hit, and to use all of your units in a way you both: 1. Get to destroy Nemesis' initial barrier, and 2. Lure him out of his Heal Tile, which is complicated to do if you don't want anyone to die or are not playing in Casual mode (by proxy, a similar idea applies to Rafal in the Fell Xenologue 6, which can be similarly cheesed early on Maddening with a ton of prep and investment, even if he's doesn't start at the opposite side of the map compared to Nemesis). Meanwhile, with Sombron you just kill his 4 Dark Emblems and have everyone gang up on him until he dies. Like Excel said, people consider him an underwhelming final challenge for a reason.

[@CyclonSilver]

@@Dakress23Oh, we're just not talking about the same cheese strat. Nemesis can be OHKOed with a Luna crit from Lysithea without touching his barrier at all. I've also hardly seen people complain about Sombron that much to be honest, but that's neither here nor there.

[@Dakress23]

@@CyclonSilver Fair enough then.

[@ThatGuy-ph2zw]

Most FE games aren’t difficult enough to even warrant using the optimal strategy on their highest difficulty, with some notable exceptions. As such, I find it way more enjoyable to pick the specific pieces that I want to use to solve the puzzle, and formulate a strategy around that. Its more fun to optimize your own strategy, rather than using THE “optimal”strategy

[@-lord1754]

Honestly this applies to every single strategy game ive ever played period

[@thechugg4372]

They might not feel difficult to you, but there's a reason why the IGN awakening chapter 2 guide has 130k views, most FE games are too hard for most players, so they feel forced to find the solution online, because like Excelblem said in an earlier video: the harder the game gets, the less options you have to solve the situation.

[@ThatGuy-ph2zw]

⁠@@thechugg4372I’d argue that people who need guides to beat the game aren’t who this discussion is really surrounding. The whole idea is that once you reach a certain understanding of an FE games tropes and mechanics, attempting to build the optimal team to “steamroll” the game or clear it with increased efficiency hampers the enjoyment a player gets out of it due to there no longer being any inherent obstacle to stand in the players way. Things like “optimal” parent pairings in Awakening, Fates, & Genealogy, optimal uses of stat-boosters, and ideal reclasses. Outside of the aforementioned specific difficulties like Awakening Lunatic+ where a guide or specific strategy is effectively required just to match the game’s nonsense, these systems aren’t a requirement to beat the vast majority of challenges FE games provide. That’s where the argument lies. Why hyper-optimize and force yourself to play one specific “optimal” way when you can try new things using one’s personal knowledge of the game to rise to the game’s challenges? Of course, there’s nothing wrong and no shame with needing a guide to beat a game. Everyone has to start somewhere, and some people just don’t click with certain systems like others do. But this particular discussion inherently assumes that the subject has a solid enough foundation with the game to be able to “optimize” it.

[@Flutterdark_]

even without the internet the knowladge of mechanics in the series can lead to cheese strats just because you know how the game works. for example once you realize how good warp is you trassure every warp staff to use it as needed, no matter which fe game we talking about. also on that list of mechanics that communicate cheese strats is the insane range bows get in echoes, or thyrsis in 3 houses if you happen to be golden deer, because golden deer does not need to recruit anyone to get the lorenz paralogue.

[@Thorn_Ursulo]

My mind goes to the escape map in engage that is incredibly difficult on a first playthrough without the DLC items or emblem bracelets, but then you play it again with the dlc and emblem bracelets and it is hardly a challenge anymore

[@Felixphaeton]

I went from barely escaping that map in my first run to farming the four hounds for exp to further trivialize the rest of the game in my second lol

[@theseabass]

I've encountered this same phenomenon outside of strategy games too. Theres certain game modes like Call of Duty Zombies where increasing in mechanical skill no longer yields results relative to the gains after a certain point. At this point the player turns to optimizing their strategy to further increase their round count. Problem is you'll find yourself doing actions that completely suck the fun and dynamic elements out of the game, and turns something thats supposed to feel like a fight for your life into what essentially amounts to an endurance test for how long you can go without making a split second mistake. I've been to round 100 in BO3 Zombies, and while I'm happy I did it, I have no false pretenses that I did anything more than just run around in circles for about 10 hours straight, literally. 😂

[@Diamond_Aura]

Regarding the Sombron example, I have to wonder if the “intended” method you mentioned of killing all 12 Dark Emblems was even intended. I feel like if the devs didn’t intend it to be done with only 4 Dark Emblems killed, they would have made it impossible to damage Sombron more than one full HP bar per round of Dark Emblems. Thus, I think it actually IS Intended to beat it with only 4 Emblems killed. Otherwise, they would probably make it (at least at higher difficulties) where he would just gain temporary invincibility after one HP bar was used, up until new Emblems were summoned. Like, if their concern was about that gimmick being too hard for normal mode, they could still restrict it to a harder mode exclusive skill/behavior. But since they didn’t do it at all, I get the feeling they WANTED you to be able to win with only 4 killed

[@danfelder8062]

Wow, didn't expect such a smooth and clear summart of a design challenge. Nice job.

[@n.l.g.6401]

And this is why I will defend RNG to the death: it forces moment-to-moment adaptation, and thereby helps gameplay feel like a constantly-evolving situation rather than a puzzle to be solved.

[@gabrieldoon]

I think RNG is significantly more acceptable if you're actually doing an Ironman run. Otherwise, there are just too many moments where you can just barely accomplish your goals for a given turn. I can recall so many times where I needed an 80% chain attack to hit to secure a kill. And other times where a 2% crit killed one of my units. I rarely find a situation like that where different choices would have gotten me into a better situation. If you play without resetting on death, then the moment to moment adaptation definitely takes place. Permadeath might make the RPG elements less fun, but it for sure makes the strategy parts more fun. I usually do my first run of a game blind on hard and reset on deaths. I'll then do my runs on maddening with ironman.

[@maltheopia]

The thing is, Fire Emblem's simple math actually makes it so that other strategies are viable at all. A lot of strategy games have problems with grinding, lowmanning, the pointlessness of map elements like terrain and fog of war, put everyone in the Best Class, etc. And I also think it's telling how these problems are generally at their worst with Fire Emblem games that embrace Big Numbers = Big Fun, such as SoV, FE3H, and Awakening. And it can get way worse than Fire Emblem. The strategy portion of the game in sRPGs like Der Langrisser and Final Fantasy Tactics and Ogre Battle and Shining Force become completely pointless shortly into the game. People are complaining about bosses like Sombron and FE10 Black Knight being easily cheesily, but that problem is much worse in those games. People remember bosses like Wiegraf only because they're actually something of an exception to the norm of easily-accessible cheese strats.

[@auraguard0212]

_Oz and Ozma flashbacks_

[@Snow_Fire_Flame]

Hmm. I can't really agree with that assessment of 3H. Older FEs let you make an immortal overlevel unit who wins by virtue of Big Numbers, and it can be done in Awakening albeit only with specific classes on Lunatic (Manakete, General - I'm ignoring Nosferatu here as that's not a numbers strat). 3H is doable on Maddening with 0% growths, and a ton of your killing power comes from specific skill setups like Deathblow Hunter's Volley / Swift Strikes / Point Blank Volley. Meanwhile it also features enemies that will totally puree your face on Maddening even if you're overlevel if you let them initiate on you, like Nader quadding with a Brave Axe. Obviously there are a bunch of ways around this (Impregnable Wall, Alert Stance+ / Evasion Ring dodgetanking, sniping with Meteor or Warp strats) but they qualify as "strategy" rather than "move unit with big numbers forward, watch fireworks" like Langrisser has.

[@auraguard0212]

@@Snow_Fire_Flame Awakening is in his list of examples.

[@LAGSAS]

​@@Snow_Fire_FlameYou realise that you haven't actually proved otherwise. You've just proved you can bullshit your way through the game not as intended. And is that method even fun?

[@noukan42]

Did you even play Der Langrisser independent route and Shining Force 2 hardest difficulty(aka the scenarios where thise games are actually difficult)? Neither can be trivialized with high numbers at all. Maybe der langrisser if you do some very precise steps that border on cheesing but even then i doubt it.

[@tikienjoyer]

Hey this was really well said and I think you've got a fantastic point. I hope you continue making a little more serious videos like this, I also enjoy the fun and funny videos but this sort of thing also provides a nice balance against the humor of your usual content with some really good discussion about game mechanics and community trends.

[@arcanelizard4646]

I was actually just having this conversation a couple days ago with my friend without knowing you posted this video. I looked up a couple 3 Houses tier lists in hopes of figuring out which units I wanted to use and which ones weren’t worth my time on Maddening, but I very quickly realized the whole thing boils down to “does the unit have warp? A tier. Is it easy to make them a wyvern lord? S tier.” Anything below that is solely based on how quickly a unit can become a wyvern lord, and F tier is for those that have a really hard path to wyvern lord and don’t have warp. It’s so stupid that that’s the ONLY metric people look at with that game. I want to use the characters where their strengths were designed to be, like Annette being a semi-powerful mage with very good rally utility, but the meta is apparently “crusher go brrr” on a wyvern, and rally utility is there too. It seems like the only skills people talk about are vantage and wrath, too. Sometimes death blow and darting blow. And alert stance gets an honorable mention every once in a while. Everything else is flat out ignored. I get reminded of the one Einstein quote a lot. “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spend its whole life thinking it’s stupid.” Every character does SOMETHING very well, but if it doesn’t include warp or flying, it’s immediately discarded. Idk, I guess I’m just more stubborn about experiencing a game the way it was intended to be played than the rest of the community is, because that’s what’s fun for me. The info I wanted was which characters do the best in the roles they were made to fill, and I got “who has a flying strength and/or warp?”

[@PGerman.]

Now thinking about it, I did burts Sombron on my first playthrough after defeating 4 of the dark emblems, because I simply was very lucky and did all the Somniel stuff each time. While on my last Generals only run my dps was a lot lower and I struggled to defeat and move around everywhere, more reinforcements came. I had to go through all 12 emblems since I only did around 1.5 bars of health per shield break.

[@DoctorSpacebar]

Back when I still gave Reddit any attention at all, there was a tier list for Last Promise, a popular hack. Once it was completed, I did an entire playthrough using only the lowest-tier units I could possibly deploy, only making exceptions for force-deploys or recruiting units. It was tougher (especially since I had to use... *Logan*), but it was a good time.

[@ciontachthecthonicchampion3576]

You just explained why I avoid talking about gameplay with the entire fire emblem community. This whole "optimization" thing is just not at all relevant to how I play games, and that's ALL they talk about. Them being focused on making the game as easy as possible really great way of describing it. I'm here to play a game, not follow instructions on how to win. Blah blah unit is bad because they're not on a pegasus, villagers are bad because they aren't easy, "bro just use this one broken skill combination and solo with lord" Doesn't help that they have this attitude of an exasperated professor lecturing you the whole time. I mean I get it. this is a game about minimizing risk. Especially with permadeath I'm here...to play a a game. overcome challenges. Have tense moments. Have...fun?

[@Videokirby]

I regularly look up the best units or classes, but I rarely look up the maps themselves. It's like a puzzle. That being said, sometimes the "developer intended way" is unimaginably stupid such as 3H "True Chivalry" for max rewards, or "Hunting By Daybreak." The former *demands* you Warp-cheese that map for the Aegis shield while the latter forces you to train your entire class if you don't want them to die.

[@mecactusnow4782]

Tbh, I useually only google character recruitments and special requirements, I force myself to only google strategies if I’m pissed, I totally agree I find it so much funner. Thank you for making this great video

[@belzac]

I feel like the problem with this is one FE created for itself (or at least the community around it did) by focusing on permadeath and attachment to units as a core of the series. No one wants to spend 2 hours on a map slugging it out only to have the boss vantage and kill their favorite unit (all the units are their favorite unit) and then have to play everything again. So they use help to guarantee their victory and save themselves having to suffer through RNG (real or perceived) to continue on the game without suffering a single loss of life. If FE didn't have permadeath, this same player would lose the unit to vantage, have maybe a slight moment of panic, and then continue playing the map and have to strategize how they're going to overcome an enemy that can hit them first. After they figure it out and win, their unit is safely returned to them, maybe with a minor penalty to gold or another resource. Most players would be more free to experience the maps the "intended" way, or try out their own strategy though this comes at the cost of "legitimate difficulty" to the community that has already built up around the series.

[@ThereIsAnExtension2UndoHandles]

Thats why I (someone only decent at fire emblem) am playing Fire Emblem Awakening Lunatic Casual blind. Its hard for me to even clear some maps, especially the first few, but its challenging in a way that doesn't make me miserable. I try to make it through every map with no casualties (especially since support gains appear to only count if you survive; neat little way to balance casual a bit) but if i can't do it, I get to keep playing the game

[@ciontachthecthonicchampion3576]

I just watched your video on thracia and I really agree with everything you said about the game having the balls to punish players and not letting you clear the final map. I think fire emblem is missing stuff like that. More defined roles for party members. Soft locks. Multiple objectives that require you to have multiple units that need to fill a variety of roles active at the same time. The stuff about fliers not really being effective indoors(this always bothered me). Hell, the fatigue mechanic to some degree. All help to combat this at least a little. Having to use your whole army and having objectives that you can't just achieve by warping would be a huge start

[@bravebiird]

my endgoal for fire emblem is never just to win. what's fun for me is to try to get away with weird and unruly shit with my army to the best of my ability

[@tapseymoth803]

I think this is why my most favorite run ever was the generic captures only for conquest why I picked a gaggle of level 10 unpromoted nubs from birthright’s route and then after they were in my log book I did some shenanigans to grind up enough gold to buy them in the conquest to use for the entire game. It was a bit tedious setting up but just holy shit was it fun (also just the generic adventure’s clothes are so so so so so so fucking cool)

[@theghostcreator776]

This is why I don't like it when people say "oh this game is bad bc it's easy bc you can just do [very specific strategy]" yeah bro, it will be easy if you know the game's meta inside and out

[@朕是神]

That's why, for any game, you always play the first playthrough blind. That said, even playing blind, I killed sombron without killing all 12 emblems anyway.

[@Samissa806]

Embrace chaos, reject meta, got it 👍

[@chaosflash912]

I follow the mindset of 'You can do whatever you want so long as it works' - what that means for me is if I can find a way to make units I like work, I will take that route instead of optimize the hell out of a game. Sure, cheese can be fun at times, but going your own way is also fun.

[@mrbilter83]

Funny when I first played Engage i beat Sombron twice (hard + maddening) without realizing that his barrier regenerates. I just thought the game intentionally made the bosses like that as a reference to the Kaga games Only a couple weeks later did i find a KZbin video showing all the convos with the other emblems that i realized there was more to the chapter lol

[@lagspike7763]

This is why I think lunatic+ is kinda cool as a concept. With random skills you have to adapt your gameplay to the current situation.

[@marcoasturias8520]

No, that only makes it so the only viable strats are the absolute most powerful ones. Quiet literally, erasing all variety

[@lagspike7763]

@@marcoasturias8520 it removes strategies I guess but it makes the TACTICS more variable

[@UltimusTerminus]

Only as a concept maybe, but definitely not the way it's in the game. If you try to play it like regular Lunatic, you'll get absolutely cooked because there are barely any means to play around waves of uber enemies with Lunatic+ skills.

[@homecomin]

I have beaten Awakening Lunatic+. For the first few maps I didn't use a guide at all, then after getting stuck I started to look up basic strategies like what classes to use and what positions to get into. After a while however I just started copying the guide I was using simply because it was easier. Those first few maps are some of my proudest FE moments. Can't really say that about the rest of that playthrough.

[@crystalqueen9711]

Honestly this is just kinda the way turn based games always go unless they involve some kind of Action Commands like Mario and Luigi, because when the best manuevers don't require some form of mechanical input, they can always come out the same way every time and less effective strategies that are easier to perform don't really need to exist, it's the difference between using Vantage and Wrath to just cheese a massive group of enemies in Fire Emblem and hitting enemies on the exact 1/60th of a second in Castlevania to deal 6X normal damage

[@billiamswartz2355]

On the topic of playing the game suboptimally, I had an idea for a three houses run that I though might be up your alley: - don’t change character goals - unless they ask you to change their goals during the week, then you must change them - only use weapons your characters are goaling for currently - try to get them into the class they’re goaling for if possible - maddening, classic, no warp or stride or whatever cheese

[@marcoasturias8520]

Sounds good, the only issue is that you'd have to play 3h, and that game is boring AF

[@gasgas_the_ena_fan]

I agree. This is why my friend's strategy of unequipping all the weapons of a stats blessed capped levelRoy to let the rest of his army kill the ennemies is definitely the best way to beat fe6. but more seriously the cheese strays are what they are, cheese starts and it is your choice to use them or not. That's why I don't use them. If I use them I don't have fun and in a game the most important part is having fun.

[@KFP_ES2]

Unintended bugs and exploits aside, using cheese strategies is what the developers intended, though. You're not given Warp and Rescue staves just so they'll rot in your inventory. But mass information sharing DOES create a problem since players can essentially create a massive free for all fondue much larger than the amount of cheese that a singular player would figure out on their own, and figuring out stuff like that on your own is part of the SRPG experience to begin with. But I feel like at some point it just becomes an issue of playing games blind or not, which is universal to every genre.

[@adammohamoud7748]

The video essay break from excelblem terrorism playthroughs is what streets didn’t know they needed, one of the best fe creators ever imo

[@kokorikopi]

I tend to think this way for most games. Especially Pokemon; still a game for children, but if you find it braindead, maybe it's on you.

[@MAYOFORCE]

Two things I get out of this is 1) The problem is less that it's easy to learn of the cheese strat and more that it's too easy to be able to use the cheese strat 2) More people should flag up strats the same way they flag up story spoilers, they're arguably more important

[@phillipmele8533]

And this is why people like me who play each map as though it were a Rout map are the supreme gamers.

[@stormtrooperjon9212]

Some maps though are just not fun. I think of the Protect Prince Zephiel battle on HHM in FEBB, without warp there’s no easy way to get to the Prince and rescue him / block the door. Also for FESS, most likely your units will be level 20 or close enough that fighting 100 enemy reinforcements is just overkill, I think everyone just picks up their lord and flies to the boss…its about saving time on unfun maps

[@netmonmatt]

This is why I generally approach Super Robot Wars games with this mindset. You have the option to over specialize and steamroll the fun out of the game, but there is a lot of fun to be had by only upgrading your units when the game hands you a new one with improved stats by default, or a "minimal/no upgrade run". Working within this self-imposed constraint is some of the most fun I've ever had with the series, and sometimes almost feels intentional!

[@madbrosheo1514]

I’m just now realizing I cheesed Sombron and I didn’t even know it.

[@connorlego5229]

Finally, a new reason to gatekeep FE

[@EdwardoFE]

I think the “best strategy is boring” issue applies to some games more than others. Nosferatu Robin breaks Awakening because the game unfortunately gives heavy incentive to just letting one unit snowball out of control with huge stats. Other games partially solve this issue through either better balance, low stat caps, or making the busted resources more limited. Yes you can cheese many FE12 maps with the Again/Rescue staff, but you have to make a choice about which maps to cheese. I feel like an actually good ranking system would provide incentive for players to use less “optimal” strats. FE4 ranked turns a rather simple “Sigurd/Seliph and pals cavrush” into a very fun game of item trading, EXP optimization, and inheritance planning because now you need to get almost every unit to max level in a limited amount of turns. It really helps show the depth the game has despite its balance issues. Or maybe the next FE game should bring back FE11/12 class limits to prevent reclassed Wyverns from killing everything again.

[@mr.stuffdoer8483]

This is why I don’t understand the people who want static level ups. That would make it even easier for everyone to do the exact same fucking thing

[@imickeymoose8370]

“Play the game as the developers intended” yea, that’s not gonna happen with Fates Revelation

[@michaelvisosky743]

This is why I'm glad I'm not great at FE. I've accomplished very few medium-difficulty iron mans, which continue to challenge me and force me to plan differently each time. Maximum-difficulty iron mans are still tantalizingly out of reach, waiting for me to fiannly figure them out. My record is getting through two thirds of Sacred Stones.

[@whodistoodis]

I have to wonder how many times Maddening Sombron has been beaten the "intended" way. My first successful clear, which was scuffed as heck, I just killed 3 of the first 4 dark emblems and hunkered down in an optimally defended corner, and then just very slowly wore the boss down despite the remaining damage reduction.

[@terrificloyaldust]

I have only looked up a map guide for my play through of fe11. And even then it was only for a couple of maps. I tend to play games the more intended way as I slowly build my skill as an individual player.

[@tiramisu7339]

me when i look up how to get my whole team galeforce in awakening since ch1:

[@marcoasturias8520]

Also, experience pile up and seeps to other games. As soon as I laid eyes on Ivy, I knew super mages were going to be mad strong in Engage. A couple tonics, an engrave and a Lyn made her 1rko every enemy in Fogado's map. She never stopped soloing maps, if anything, she got better thanks to Eirika, not only she killed everything, but now was invincible thanks to blue skies. The devs really fumbled it when giving gauntlets shit hit rates and the only class that uses them is a support class without aggressive AI... ... That said, I think CQ is testament for making a game with plenty of cheese strats that still is challenging and fun.

[@Flutterdark_]

tbh when i played engage on maddening i did the 4 kill break because i figured my army couldnt survive longer. i think in my casual normal mode playthrough i only killed 8 emblems because after realising with the first 4 that i only get one turn i set up a bit, that and i had a cracked team on normal that just did too muich damage for sombron to live.

[@wouterW24]

With all the recent trends of more game design videos such as Sakurai's series I think the FE fandom doesn't focus on game design enough, as far it goes from developer considerations and balancing gameplay to get certain reactions from average players. Just look at all the flavours of Jagen we had. They run the spectrum to be unappealing or appealing to new player with both their visual design (old man) or attractive young people like Seth or Titania. And in gameplay some have clumsy flaws or rather bad grounds that together with low exp gain would turn players off, while Seth might be good looking enough more players are going to notice he grows well. Fe7 Marcus is extremely powerful if you know everything about the game, but he's a bit older and players will see he grows meh. The dev intention with him is to get players to be more lukewarm about him then his gameplay shakes out. I wish we just talked more about that, devs manipulate so much regardless of balance. Incorrect balance perception, and suboptimal gameplay are not a bug, but a feature. I kind of suspect swords keep being a little weak on purpose considering most inexperienced players like them, and if they are used liberally the overall difficulty experience ends up shaking out just right. Especially FE9 Ike is a gold standard for a unit that feels incredibly good to raise and see strong and also neatly sticks to the power he's supposed to have in story beats. He's balanced to struggle a bit, which makes him mid-tier effiency, but S+ game design. I don't think it's right to judge people who think Ike is OP, because that exactly what the game is designed to make the average player feel.

[@CheapShotFail]

Souls games have forever taught me that learning what's overpowered doesn't have to impact every playthrough. Sure it's fine to use it every once in a while, but choosing to make the game harder via SL1, no upgrade, or other challenge runs can make even relatively easy enemies/bosses into a real challenge and a much more rewarding experience. Onliine walkthroughs have made cheese strategies common across most genres, not just strategy games sadly. Most games aren't fine-tuned enough to stay difficult across repeated playthroughs, and even then dumping too many hours into a single game can make any game significantly easier, so at the end of the day it's up to the player to choose to embrace the challenge or continue cheesing the same game for the hundredth time, and frankly I can't understand the joy in the latter.

[@SirVyre]

The greater a man's knowledge, the greater his sorrow.

[@ChillstoneBlakeBlast]

This isn't even an FE Issue. This is a Metagame issue that happens to every game, especially if they don't recieve frequent updates or spice the gameplay up. For FE, this happens because chapters usually are not different by the end, with the exeption of potentially Ironman because you have a limited cast. Even then, If you the stats or why you need a certain Unit/Build, You can proplably replace as well with enogh thinking.

[@bladerdj3503]

The best strategy is to simple not look up strategies after all.

[@kalebdoesthings]

This is why I keep cannon classes, use characters who I like, keep flyers to a minimum unless i really like them, never use my items except my massive stockpile of iron weapons and only heal using the same one heal and memd staff passed around my units until it breaks and I reach into my stockpile because warp has limited uses and I might need it later (its the final chapter)

[@xenofes2]

I think this is a really good way of analyzing the issue. It's impossible to deny that cheese strats are better, but at the same time, I would like to actually have fun.

[@hilgigas09]

I feel called out, so I wasn't supposed to dogpile Sombron with the Power of Friendship?

[@ThePowerofHalo]

Fantastic video, well stated

[@blankblank6214]

In engage I only beat the final boss in the intended way once because I wanted to see the special dialogue

[@Bot-77385]

This is why imo the best way to play Fire Emblem on any play through besides the first should be suboptimal. This is why I think people should try Fe6 with three Armor knights. Is it optimal? No. But playing through fe6 to overcome the shortcomings of these armor knights is much more satisfying. It forces to you not use Paladins because knight crests are limited, so you need to find alternative strats to meme your way through the game.

[@marcgomez8391]

Though I agree wholeheartedly, I would like to propose a counterargument: players who revisit FE games they have already played are likely to try to use units they've never used before, which is likely to result in improvised strategies unique to that person's circumstance. For example, I recently replayed FE9 forbidding myself to use any mounted unit, and FE10 training only non-royal laguz to endgame. At the end of the day, using optimal strategies is a choice.

[@toniconge7003]

It suprised me how they let me get through all of Sombron's HP bar after only defeating 4 of the Shadow Emblems.

[@Anonlyso]

Kinda the issue of Low-varience (luck, execution or alternative set-ups) strategy games is they wind up being glorified puzzle games where while there is technically different approaches, again, once you find a "best/most-effectient" (meta) way to do them not much incentive to do otherwise, outside externally enforced challenge runs. There's certainly some sense of "how the developer wanted the player to experience a given encounter" but it's either not complex enough for say an AI to shift game plans mid-encounter, or really too narrow a line between "difficult enough to make players not just face-roll every encounter" vs "SO hard, that player's completely dis-engage outside a known efficient strategy". It also should address that characterizing units and discouraging poor play via "lost exp" ironically means HEAVY incentive for most players to perfect, or at least "no-death" runs because the stakes mean way too much, to the point that it's common enough that casually people would constantly reset any "scuffed" run period (in spite of phoenix mode, perhaps too much an ego hit to admit). I do wonder if it's just Intel developing itself into a corner or just the nature of the genre, as even as much as people want to point to good/bad stat and chance based for attacks, that's not enough to move the needle to change up for people to "actively use units they don't already like using" or not enough turns to deliberately make "bad tactics" a learning experience that could just kill off a new player's favorite waifu on a bad call.

[@metaphobic]

That part of the reason why I try to play fire emblem "optimally". I just use the units I like, and the classes I like and bash my head against the maps until I beat them.

[@KoopaKoot]

I've beaten Sombron as intended and in two turns AND in two turns with a maxed out Wille Glanz because playing FE the same way as everyone else (including myself) wouldn't be as fun 😊