Exploration in Games (Sunday Sitdown)

[@willyum3108]

Some people read the paper on Sunday, and then there's us.

[@clubcourage6862]

Shadracked lol - this comment killed me ;)

[@jesseluer3618]

Thank you so much for making these videos. I recently discovered scythe and eclipse. I and my gaming group love those games so much they inspired me to create a board game. Discovering your videos on this journey was exciting and has been immensely helpful

[@jameystegmaier]

Thanks Jesse! I hope you have fun with your design. :)

[@arcubal]

Thanks, Jamey for this wonderfully fleshed out examination of exploration type games. Particularly useful to me, not just because it's my favorite type of game to play, but also because I'm in the process of designing 2 vastly different exploration type games, both only have in common that they have an underlying social goal aim. Without revealing too much (I'm still looking for partners to team up with to develop these games) but the first deals with random tiles that need to be placed to create the players' journey from one land to another as adverse factors try to push them off-target, signifying the terrifying nature of not knowing if and where your journey will end in a safe place. The second deals with players starting out in separate areas, finding each other and determining the dynamics needed to escape the location all together. There are location tiles that appear and disappear in this modular game as time progresses. As opposed to the former game this one has a predetermined world which is trying to tell a story but allowing enough autonomous player actions to present a challenge for players to empower themselves if they choose to do so. Clearly, as a storyteller, graphic and game designer, I am VERY curious to see what your next project is going to be because it sounds like you're just as big a fan of exploration as a game theme as I am. Kudos! Marcel Claxton

[@jameystegmaier]

Marcel: These sound like some very interesting designs you're working on! Please let me know if they reach publication at some point. :)

[@arcubal]

Thanks Jamey! Let's hope that by that time your and my game(s) will not end up being the same thing, cuz I feel like you and I think alike in what we want out of a game. Then again, I'm still in the really early design phase of it all. Good luck and keep podcasting!

[@victorlamy6590]

You’re really good at putting words on things in my mind and express complex concepts with amazing clarity. Kudos!

[@apertotes]

I agree with you, Jamey. My favorite kind of exploration is when the world has been designed and detailed in advance but it is unknown to the players. I feel that this kind of exploration, if done well, allows for both the designer and the players to be clever. The designer, by including clues and cues in the game about what different regions may feature and players by finding and exploiting those breadcrumbs. A completely random exploration mechanic lacks that player agency. On the other hand, it is very difficult to make an explorable predefined world that maintains tension and interest during repeated plays.

[@jameystegmaier]

That's what Vantage does! :)

[@naadirjoseph9972]

I do think tokens on the board that get randomly place each game sits well with exploration. The board is the same but each time you play, it can be completely different when it appears. I love exploration. It adds so much in terms of theme and narrative to a game.

[@aaronscholl]

I just discovered your channel in 2021, and am deeply enjoying your content. Please keep it up!

[@jameystegmaier]

Thanks Aaron! This is an older video, but I have indeed kept up with the channel since then!

[@DerMizzlBizzl]

A game that recently impressed me with an interesting exploration mechanism was Adventureland by Wolfgang Kramer. In the game cards are drawn to randomly spawn objects but those objects can only spawn in preprinted areas. The World feels very dynamic and almost alive.

[@dylannorthrup5439]

Excited to learn about this Open World Exploration Game you have been working on... I’m definitely a fan of the genre, and feel that when it works well, it can really enhance your immersion in the story. The game should make you want to explore, but also be interested in everything you discover. Being able to find or learn things that reward you for returning to previously explored regions from a different perspective or mind set can be very interesting - especially since you have already seen the area, but maybe weren’t looking for anything specific, or didn’t have the context to understand what you were looking at. Exploration layered on top of exploration keeps it fresh and exciting, while simultaneously increasing the amount of immersion as you feel within the world.

[@ChrisBacke]

Such a tease! Looking forward to learning more about this exploration game 'from the side'. Most of the games you mentioned (save for the 'Exit' series and Burgle Bros) are pretty crunchy, big-box games. Have you seen exploration done well in any smaller box games?

[@kylewinston]

Played Tobago with my game group a few weeks ago. It's an interesting treasure hunt/exploration game where you are narrowing down the clues to figure out where the treasures are hidden.

[@yarivalimar]

The idea of changing the color to purple is a good one. These videos I like and are more visualy easy to find ! Thx ;)

[@lotusmoon2744]

Jamey I am extremely excited to hear you are working on an exploration game similar in scope and vastness as 7th Continent and with perhaps elements of Time Stories type exploration/story telling? Luckily 7th Continent has reopened their PM since I missed their KS, but I don't like how difficult the game is to get. I think you will have huge success as people are hungry for more and your new game will be I'm assuming much more widely available. When do you think you will be able to tell us more? I am a Stonemaier champion so hopefully we can get the first teasers when you're ready to share more 😉.

[@sebasrez]

I would love a deeper dive in this! This is exactly the topic I have been racking my brain on this month. Exploration is best when you care about exploring, and I find it hard to care when it is randomized. The environment doesn't have depth to it when there is no purpose, like a character without personality. I have been attempting to find a way to give randomization some depth through story but it has been a bit difficult. I am coming to a solution by using patterns the player could build upon to unveil story cards about the location that can change depending on when you arrived to that spot. Thanks for the great topic and insight, also I signed up a few months ago to become a Stonemaier Ambassador, and no reply yet but I would really look forward to testing out this adventure game and provide feedback with my gaming group.

[@candigram8588]

Perhaps for randomized events/encounters to feel impactful they just need to represent serious stakes? Then the tension of "What will appear where?" would get you invested?

[@sebasrez]

Ian Moore Agreed, similar to pandemic when you get an epidemic location and hope to not get the same location again. I guess I was trying to make exploration through random encounters exciting, through impact. I think players would lose the sense of wonder and replace that with a sense of tension which is probably the difference in the latter of games Jamey mentioned. I think a solution through randomness would be through a set deck that is designed to flow with one another but it still loses that wonder of what is across the horizon when you know what is across is completely random as opposed to a set number of cards that you must go through in order. Tough.

[@mihancic]

Nice video, can't wait to find out more about your new game :)

[@BrandonGraham]

I have always wanted a game that is map that looks something like a top-down view of an area. As you explore this area, you would find out if your new location has anything interesting via a card-catalog (or app). However, the storyline could end up putting something in an area, even if you have already passed through that location. For instance, you may have walked through an area and found a bear-trap, but later find out that there was a cabin in that area. A sticker book (via Pandemic Legacy) would then have you put a semi-permanent indicator on that tile as a place to visit. So the original map, you can see (mostly) everything there is to explore, and you can head off in any direction with perhaps an initial set of visible things that you might want to explore. As you continue to interact with the game, some locations might get overwritten multiple times depending on your continuing interaction with them (the cabin burned down!). Traveling in this game would have to be fun or easy or awesome-feeling, but at the cost of information. If you drove through an area, you might barely notice anything but if you walked through it you might hear something, and if you flew over a location you might notice a pattern that otherwise would have gone unnoticed. There is so much that can be... explored in this space. :] long comment is long

[@kennythegreatbear]

I'm super hyped about your first co-op game. Hoping it focuses on character building and mechanics at least as much as it does on the novelty of exploration!

[@hexgaard]

I would love to hear your thoughts on this: would you back any classic games like Catan if they were launched on Kickstarter tomorrow?

[@Stephen-Fox]

As a player, I mainly respond to three types of exploration in games: Mechanical exploration - That is, exploring a game's mechanics. The main reason I buy new games - I enjoy exploring new mechanical systems - and something Legacy games, and games with similar unfolding structures, excel at. Narrative exploration - Finding out what happens next in a story to an extent, but also discovering the 'lore' of a world in particular. Games with campaigns have a lot of this, Legacy or otherwise, though I haven't seen many games attempt to have much in the way of lore beyond flavour text on cards, which tends to be more... Direct... than the sort of thing I particularly enjoy when it comes to lore - An item description (flavour text) and piece of environmental detail (artwork) that aren't necessarily next to each other but which go together to tell a story. Spatial exploration - The thing most people mean when they say exploration. This is an area board games struggle with compared to video games, since board games inherrently need to abstract this out somewhat compared to the sense of exploration from climbing to the top of a mountain, seeing something of interest on the horizon, and gliding over there, or discovering a hidden basement at the bottom of a house, but there are some that have succeeded at it to some degree - The most obviously to me being Forbidden Desert. I absolutely agree that when done well a designed, set exploration, is incredibly enjoyable. But you get that exploritory experience once with those, weather legacy or campaign so that set exploration is spread out over a dozen or so games or replayable (In which case... You get the exploration goodness the first time and then not again without expansions)

[@Stephen-Fox]

(As such, while the pre-designed worlds usually give a better First Play exploration experience, it tends to be stuff where there's more to the discovery of things than just flipping a tile or turning a card - Such as Forbidden Desert where the things I care about take three steps to find, the first two to figure out where they are - that gives me more of a sustained experience, but not every game needs to be about replayability, as in Time Stories where each scenario is about 2-4 cycles lasting around 60-90 minutes each.)

[@jameystegmaier]

Well said. I like those three categories, and you make a good point that I focus mostly on spatial exploration (though there are a few examples of narrative exploration in the video). I'm doing some things with my exploration game that I think will address some of the issues you mention in regards to that niche.

[@naadirjoseph9972]

Jamey Stegmaier what is this exploration game??? I hunger to know lol.

[@jameystegmaier]

You will all know someday. :)

[@jonathanpickles2946]

Extra Credits calls this aspect of games "discovery" rather than exploration. It captures both the last two but I am not sure about the first, I think that is just a style of game play but some games let you experiment with game play more than others so probably. (edit: no I don't think it is exploration - the information is there at the start so, in theory, how the mechanics work when you push them). There seems to me a big split between a game being designed as a one off (Including Time Stories as 2-3 runs is really one extended play) or for repeat use. Making them tailor made certainly increases the richness and also the ability to ensure that the game is balanced appropriately or avoids anti climaxes. The cost is either reduced replayability ie none in TS or LOTS of stuff. I do think re play ability is overrated in this age of too many games so I am all for richness.

[@TheSteffenCovers]

A great game that fits a lot of these categories is Saltlands. The tiles are in a predefined arrangement, but they are random and most of them are face down. There are several tokens that are randomized and face up, but some of them allow you to draw cards from a deck, so you're discovering those items. It really does a good job of bringing out the theme of trying to survive the wasteland by exploring and scavenging for resources.

[@jameystegmaier]

Thanks for sharing that example! I haven't played Saltlands, but I'll check it out.

[@chadstilson8804]

Cant wait to hear more about your New Exploration game! Im designing an exploration game as well and the process has been really fun

[@darrenchristie924]

Great video, a mechanic I do like. You covered some of my favourites (Scythe, Xia, 7th Continent) I have Burgle Bros but not got it to the table. Forbidden Island played a couple of times. My friend Jonathan co-designed a game that has an exploration mechanic called Commonville set in the Police Precinct universe. It’s currently sitting in publisher jail while the publisher decides what to do with it. But they had a fixed board layout, where you flip the tiles over as you explore the city hunting for clues etc. But I’m super excited to see your take on this mechanic. An instant buy for me I think.

[@jameystegmaier]

I love Burgle Bros--it was one of my favorite coops for a long time. I'd highly recommend playing it, but only with 2 floors, not 3. That's neat to hear about your friend's game, and I hope it gets out of "jail." :)

[@MjrLeegInfidel]

Xia does exploration in a really cool way. Space exploration, discovering planets with resources, missions, and technology. It's not totally a surprise. You can spend action points to reveal first then move or not move. But yea a lot of times you just jump into a meteor field or sun ahahhaha

[@jameystegmaier]

I love it when exploration creates memorable moments like that! Particularly in cooperative games (which Xia isn't).

[@TabletopGamesBlog]

I'd agree that 7th Continent is the leader in the area of exploration tabletop games. So I'd be keen to find out more about your new game, when you're ready. :)

[@kurtk.6751]

I love your games and your thought...I'm curious why Mage Knight was left off the list.

[@jameystegmaier]

I must admit that I haven't played Mage Knight, Kurt. :)

[@kurtk.6751]

Cool cool....we probably assume you have played everything. Lol. Have a great day.

[@naadirjoseph9972]

I have explored and gone through every video on this channel! My brain is now tired.

[@bernardorippe7024]

Jaimey Im a devouted fan of your work, Scythe is an awesome game and thank you for rise of the fenrir, this expansion is stunning in all aspects. Im a lonelly boardgame designer that work in his free time playing and designing games. I have a space exploration game and I face the same problem you face in Scythe, Combat. In my game combat has a important part and cut it would be a shame. I know you could discover new layers of gameplay, like happend in Scythe, but Im pretty sure tjat the decition wouldnt be easy.

[@jameystegmaier]

Good luck in figuring it out, Bernardo! It took me 25 iterations until I figured out what I thought was the right combat in Scythe. :)

[@bernardorippe7024]

25!, Well I know thats not a easy decision. I guess that is a forgotten mystery what combat in scythe is all about, but considering your videos I suspect that the game was more Ameritrash than sees right now. Thank you for your time writing an answer. I hope you can review some of my games in the future!

[@DarrenTerpstra]

Is it funny that I'm listening to all of these while thinking about that Red Rising offer you made ;)

[@mobileuploads3623]

Sunday Sitdown is a highlight for me.

[@jameystegmaier]

Thank you! :)

[@andreribera4653]

the first games that came to mind when he started talkimg about exploration games were 7th Continent and Star Trek: Frontiers. Both of these games have just enough randomization to keep it entertaining to me.

[@csabalaszlo244]

I have looked through my collection after this video, and I have found some games that were not mentioned, and also use a kind of exploration, which I like. Some old ones, like Tikal and Lost Valley. In the category of Mansion of Madness, I like also Betrayal at House on the Hill and Dead Men Tell no Tales. Also there is a kind of exploration feel in Dead of Winter by the visit of the different locations.

[@jameystegmaier]

Out of those, I've only played Dead of Winter, but I agree it has that type of "going deeper" exploration (not discovering new locations, but exploring preset locations).

[@jonathanpickles2946]

There are a couple more variations, maybe. In Source of the Nile you explore a hex map of Africa that is only filled in around the edges & you draw on the map as you discover it. The original legacy game? although it was not called that in 1978 . In the Arkham Horror LCG the map is tiles (cards) that are laid out in a certain way & you flip them as you go. Often there are multiple versions of the same location so you only know what is on the back of them. I guess this is really just fixed map with random encounters. As an investigator my objectives are also hidden from me until some time passes in the scenario as I hunt clues. This is more the Narrative discovery but it is a quality that disappears on repeat plays (not that I do this as I play with a friends cards) .

[@jameystegmaier]

I like the example of maps that start with complete borders and expand inwards (instead of inside out).

[@kirkwagner461]

I love exploration in games. And since most games have a sort of exploration phase, I am always a bit sad when that phase ends. I'd love a game where exploration is only phase. Perhaps you are making discoveries, and must choose which to bring home for the favor of your patrons? I dunno.

[@carlos9402]

Hi Jamey! I know you have another open-world game in mind. Is it your exploration game? Or Expeditions is your exploration game? Thanks! Can't wait to try it out this summer. Scythe is one of my favorite universe.

[@jameystegmaier]

Expeditions is an exploration game, but it isn't my open-world game.

[@DenisRyan]

Surprised you didn't mention Inis as an example, given that the card to reveal new tiles is literally called Exploration! Haha.

[@jameystegmaier]

I guess so...Inis just doesn't feel like an exploration game to me, but you're right that it has an exploration element. I'm sure there are plenty of games I didn't mention--that's what the comments are for! :)

[@TomPozywio]

Love the Festivus shirt!

[@jameystegmaier]

It's one of my favorite shirts. :)

[@naadirjoseph9972]

Yes! I waiting for this topic

[@gieledelatourette]

Do any of you know board games that use an exploration mechanic where players can experience the feeling of vastness? I'm still waiting to play my friends copy of 7th Continent, but are there any others that come to mind?

[@jameystegmaier]

The feeling of vastness--I like the way you put that. The game I'm working on will almost certainly evoke that feeling, even more so than the amazing 7th Continent. I honestly can't think of any others. Like, Seafall conveys a sense of scope--a huge, gaping, empty map of things to discover--but I think there are really only around 20 or so islands that end up on the board, compared to hundreds of locations in 7th Continent (and even more in my game).

[@gieledelatourette]

You got my attention :-) I've been looking into this as well as I love exploration mechanics; this video is very helpful for that. I feel that exploration mostly has been an early game concept (almost everything, if not everything, is discovered by mid to end game). I always hated it when the entire Age of Empires / Civilization map was discovered and the game transcended into something less palatable.

[@sethjaffee7104]

My first game, Terra Prime, had face-down tiles that you turn face up as you explore them. In the upcoming re-release I'm changing that. The tiles will be face up, so you can see where all the planets are, with face-down exploration tiles with stuff you find when you explore there.

[@sethjaffee7104]

The reason for the change is to allow more long term planning. I thought it was interesting that both of those cases were items in your list :)

[@jameystegmaier]

Nice! I do like that aspect of being able to plan ahead a bit--it's satisfying to have some agency in your options. I look forward to seeing how you do it!

[@DanielHCassidy]

Wow I have a space theme game bubbling away in my mind and since the very beginning I wanted to show where the planets were but not what's on them, until you get there and flip them over.

[@DanielHCassidy]

Actually it's interesting to even say that here as it was scythe that inspired me to think about the game as I love the idea of resources and buildings living on the board. With a bit of via nebula in the design where the resource generating locations have to link to buildings that can use them. So resource x is found on a flipped over planet. There has to be a building there to mine it and you need a laser highway to get it to another building on an other highway to use it. I just got founders of gloomhaven in the post the other day I backed it on KS because it reminded me of my own game. Actually there's an interesting question. I find I'm always designing games in my head some make it to paper. Do you find that while your designing games other games come along that are very similar to your own in either theme or mechanics.

[@jameystegmaier]

Daniel: Thanks! I think that mechanism in Scythe stands out because the resources controlled by each player are on the board--I would say there are a number of games where resources are discovered on the board, but typically when a player takes control of that area or the resources, they're pulled off the board into that player's supply. That's the key difference. As for your question, I can't think of an example of that, though I am constantly inspired by mechanisms in games I'm actively playing.

[@enosfruit]

i place a page marker or sticky note on the main card to see where it's at int he deck.

[@DanielHCassidy]

While it's not released yet I thought the map building in post human saga looked really interesting.

[@jameystegmaier]

Oh yes, me too!

[@seangrady9542]

Jamey, can you speak a bit to story telling games like Near and Far, Arabian Nights, Smersh, 7th continue t, Etc? Not sure if you have already. I am working on one in my spare time and it's quite the endeavor. Cheers.

[@jameystegmaier]

Sure, I specifically talk about Near and Far and 7th Continent in this video. :)

[@seangrady9542]

Jamey Stegmaier I should have specified. The actually storytelling mechanic. Also, how do you feel about offering the option of app companions with voice actors that do the reading and or offer visuals?

[@jameystegmaier]

Sean: Thanks for clarifying. I like written text if it doesn't overstay its welcome. I like interesting decisions, and depending on the game, I may or may not like knowing the possible outcomes before making the decision. I like both preset stories and randomized/variable stories. I definitely like when visuals accompany the text (like in TIME Stories). As for the voice actor idea, I think I could take it or leave it.

[@seangrady9542]

Jamey Stegmaier Thanks for taking the time.

[@KSweeney36]

What about exploration in a dungeon crawl? For sentimental value my fav would always be the original Warhammer Quest.

[@jameystegmaier]

Definitely! I talk about two styles in the video: Mansions of Madness (add specific new tiles as you go) and Escape/Magic Maze (add random tiles as you go). Is Warhammer Quest different?

[@bluebotic2327]

Great topic. Thanks for sharing your views from a creator’s perspective. Exploration is my favorite tabletop game type to prototype and I always wrestle with randomized-modular verses hardcoded worlds. And now I’m testing various hybrids of the two and this is opening new doors for me. I’ve been playing through all the old Ares magazine games from 1980 as a sort of game dev exercise and game history lesson, and what I’ve learned about my own personal taste is that in general, the more replayable those old games try to be, the less immersive and more tedious they are. As I bushwhacked my way through them, I would have gladly traded 75 percent of the replayability for an extra 50 percent immersion and moments of true surprise and wonder.

[@jameystegmaier]

"the more replayable those old games try to be, the less immersive and more tedious they are." I agree that the randomization elements can end up detracting from immersion. It's not a hard and fast rule, in my opinion, but I think preset worlds instinctively connect with us more as humans.

[@clubcourage6862]

Preset world vs discover/build as you go: I have no preference since both can be enjoyable but are largely dependent on other aspects like meaningful decisions, story narrative, and ability to change/interact with what has been discovered. If done well either are great. If done poorly both feel like a veneer, smoke and mirrors.

[@jameystegmaier]

Well said--I agree that those are core tenets for a satisfying exploration game. It actually touches upon one of the things I've struggled with in my game--how players can "change" the world (or even if they should be able to do that). Like, it's one thing to enable a player to cut down a tree and make a weapon or boat out of it. It's another to have the game *remember* that the tree has been cut down (my game is not a legacy game).

[@clubcourage6862]

Jamey Stegmaier Yes, that's interesting. Interact is often enough, but effecting change seems more difficult. Often the design seems to be: a benefit accrues to the player (colonized a planet, cut down a tree, gained a skill or resource) rather than changed the world (player accomplished X then: inhabitants erected a monument to her growing reputation, or a resulting landslide changed the area, she cast a spell and darkness consumed the land, etc. Need a way to mark the affected game areas with changes that don't seem scripted from a list.

[@jameystegmaier]

I like those examples--changing the world in positive and negative ways has overarching positive and negative consequences. This was actually a big help--thank you, Club!

[@clubcourage6862]

Jamey Stegmaier rambling here, but it would be neat if asymmetric players had different unique tokens representing how they impacted certain game areas. Maybe some common tokens also. Not sure if co-op or competitive but goals could be different: unify, conquer, destroy, tax, nurture land, establish outpost, etc. Beyond Terraforming Mars lol - nice game but I don't feel I'm a terraformer playing it.

[@jameystegmaier]

My game is cooperative, and while I usually save the asymmetric aspect of the design until later, I have been thinking about something like that for each character based on their innate skill set, probably in the form of a unique action each of them can take.

[@fiatbrecher]

I want you to create an open world board game :-)

[@2532robh1]

I started out with Dungeonquest.

[@naadirjoseph9972]

Hi Jamey, would you consider pursuing Frostpunk the video game for a board game?

[@jameystegmaier]

I have heard (perhaps from you!) that it would make an excellent video game. I'm certainly not against it, though I need to play it first. :) Or have someone else play it and design a game for it.

[@naadirjoseph9972]

Jamey Stegmaier please play it. They only have a couple of scenarios so far. It's a harsh city builder where you trying to survive against the harshness of winter set in a steampunk world. You can send people out to go find survivors, build up, manage your small city. It's made by the same guys who made This War of Mine. I love this video game so much so a friend and I were literally talking about a board game version of it since it looks like it would translate so well.

[@naadirjoseph9972]

If not play, then just check a KZbin video on it. I'd love to know what you think.

[@jameystegmaier]

Indeed, I have watched a video on it, and it looks awesome (though a bit intimidating to someone who doesn't play many video games).

[@naadirjoseph9972]

Jamey Stegmaier I just love that it feels so much like worker placement board game where the workers are buildings.

[@michaelboucher1023]

Jamey I adore you but I am truly disappointed your videos are not properly captioned. Autocaptioning is POS and if you care for your deaf fans please look into captioning those videos properly thanks

[@jameystegmaier]

I appreciate your passion for customized captioning! Would you like to apply that passion to creating the captions for these videos? If you create them, I'm happy to add them. As you know, a 20-minute video can take between 5 and 20 hours to create captions for, and I'm sure you wouldn't ask me to add that much time to the 80 hours I work every week. I'm a little hurt you didn't mention that we do offer customized captions for the Watch It Played rules videos for our games--that's beyond what most companies do, and you didn't even acknowledge it (I know for sure that news of it was not only disseminated among the deaf gaming community, as well as our e-newsletter, so you should have known about it).

[@michaelboucher1023]

Jamey Stegmaier Thanks for responding. How can I help with captions if I don't hear? I haven't seen your Watch It Play content, will take a look.

[@jameystegmaier]

Can you think of some ways you can be a part of the solution? Perhaps there are people you know who have the time (5-20 hours per video) to create the captions. I care about the deaf community and would be happy to add any customized captions that you coordinate the creation of.

[@waferjuice]

this game has become TAPESTRY !!

[@jameystegmaier]

Tapestry is a game that was created after this video, and it features light exploration (very light), but it isn't my exploration game. :)