Extending The Northeast Corridor & Acela Service to Virginia

Is it time to finally extend the NEC to the South? We're going to look at what's happening with passenger rail plans between Washington D.C. and Richmond, VA. This includes a couple of hypothetical scenarios where electrification is extended to Virginia, directly connecting it all the way up the Northeast Corridor to Boston without locomotive changes. This is all part of big future plans for the FRA Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which we will be looking at increasingly on this channel. So check it out, see what you think of the options, and let me know all about it in the comments!
Links:
Big thanks for the media contribution by / @stevegettingaroundphilly
Discord Lucid Group invite: / discord
Attribution:
"One of VRE's new MP36PH-3C engines slows to a stop in Manassas, VA. Train #327 left Washington, DC's Union Station a little over an hour earlier. The commuter line operates Monday through Friday."
byjpmueller99
creativecommons.org/licenses/...
"Main Street Station"
by Onemoregain
creativecommons.org/licenses/...
"19990205 05 First Street Tunnel, Washington, DC"
by David Wilson
creativecommons.org/licenses/...
Chapters:
0:00 Hey, It's Your Old Pal Lucid Stew Again
0:06 The Concept
0:35 The Region
2:00 The Options
2:52 No Build Option
3:36 Acela On Existing Geometry
8:14 VRPA Longer Term Option
8:50 Acela On New Geometry
16:34 Conclusion, Thanks, Up Next
17:02 See You On That Big, Beautiful Freeway!
Topics:
NEC
Northeast Corridor
Acela
Washington D.C.
Richmond, VA
Boston, MA
Electrification
Washington Metro
WMATA
Amtrak
Virginia
District of Columbia
GRTC
Amtrak Thruway
CSX Transportation
Virginia Passenger Rail Authority
VPRA
DC2RVA
Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor
Transforming Rail In Virginia
Dual mode Siemens Charger
NEC Regional
First Street Tunnels
North River Tunnels
Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac
Long Bridge Project
Potomac River
Franconia-Springfield Bypass
Alexandria
Quantico
Fredericksburg
Kings Dominion
Ashland
Richmond Main Street Station
New York City
CAHSR
Brightline West
Atlanta
Charlotte
DC To Richmond
Crow's Nest Natural Area Preserve
James River
R2R Project
Richmond 2 Raleigh
CSX S-Line
Documents referenced can be found at:
vapassengerrailauthority.org/

[@wintermath3173]

Richmond to DC in an hour would be a game changer on so many levels. Access to cheap housing alone for downtown DC workers would be huge.

[@daniellewis1789]

Hell, even the VRE Preferred option is in supercommuter or partial WFH territory so long as the frequency goes up. The whole plan started from "we can't afford to make I-95 big enough. We have to build out our regional rail as if we're PA during peak Pennsy regional/commuter expansion." And they're actually kind of doing it.

[@295g295]

Do you propose that VRE will run electric trains to Richmond and Manassas / Culpepper too?

[@daniellewis1789]

@@295g295 VRE electrifying anything is a reach at this point - if there's a performance or ops cost benefit they might go for it under someone else's wires. MARC and Amtrak both run under the wire elsewhere. VRE would have to actively change their equipment, at a minimum overhauling their new Chargers to accept an APV. Amtrak just has to leave the pantograph up a bit longer. So, I don't figure VRE would initially go any further than where MARC through service terminates or where Amtrak stops their wires. Long term, VRE might extend a local service down to Richmond or run north into MARC territory, but there's no current intention to go there. The Amtrak Northeast Regional Extension is it for the medium term.

[@RussianBot382]

Baltimore currently provides cheap housing for DC workers by Acela or MARC train

[@Gnefitisis]

This is a really interesting concept. I think the further these connections are made, the more economic connections are made for American workers and social connections for its people. Alternatively, what if the NEC was extended more North to Maine? Maine is basically just cheap housing and great sites, but not that many jobs.

[@rudolphna54]

$16bn seems pretty damn reasonable actually for that.

[@LucidStew]

Keep in mind its only 109 miles. $146 million/mile isn't cheap. You'd expect a higher average speed for that type of expense.

[@TheCriminalViolin]

@@LucidStew Still infinitely cheaper than goddamn LRT. A average cost per mile of $1B is the price (prior to inflation, ironically) here in the Portland area, and that's including 80% of the tracks already freshly installed for the latest route. People adore acting as if a couple hundred million a mile for true high capacity high speed rail is so much money, but when you are made to pay for a 7-10 mile light rail line at over a half a billion to a full billion a mile, you immediately lose your shit haha.

[@rogerlevasseur397]

Can extend the NEC into Maine by starting with the building of a 2.8 mile tunnel between Boston's South Station and North Station for perhaps the same $16 billion (latest estimates are between 12 to 21 billion).

[@NarasimhaDiyasena]

The cost is criminal, especially when considering the Shanghai Maglev cost $30m per mile.

[@TheCriminalViolin]

@@NarasimhaDiyasena The cost to build rail differs not just by type and nation, but by state (State = Canton in China, County in the Isles, Province in Canada, etc). No price is universal unfortunately. So here in the US for true HSR, pricing is usually a 10s of Millions per a mile to a few hundred million a mile (usually the latter). Add in terrain and how legally ownership, rights and money all function together with politics in cities in the US, and you've got yourself a lethally expensive and ever ballooning price tag and never-ending delays to haunt a transit project like them for years, often even decades until it just gets abandoned. Corporate-Political Lobbies especially love to make damn sure to stall or even kill off projects like them. It's a fantastic, thrilling time!

[@jaypink5913]

Amazing stuff as always, a sub-hour journey to D.C. would be a game changer for the current economic landscape of Richmond and Virginia as a whole

[@LucidStew]

I think its about the best you can do. The bookends are just too hemmed in by development and alternative corridors are actually poorer choices in those areas.

[@turinggirl6432]

As a richmond resident...the 16 billion one please. That would be beyond a game changer. It would cause a prolific reemergence of community rail in RVA. I may not live to see its completion but RVA could really use a rail metro for the city and surrounding areas.

[@armandoperez7967]

Imagine if they not only extended the Northeast Corridor to Richmond VA, but also to Portland ME.

[@LucidStew]

I did :) kzbin.info/www/bejne/mZfJdqOpf5pkgaM

[@paulw.woodring7304]

I was a CSX locomotive engineer over 15 years ago, qualified on the RF&P sub. Before that I spent 14 years as an Amtrak cafe attendant, sometimes working trains to/from Richmond. The maximum grade on the RF&P is 0.8% (Franconia Hill, Southbound out of Alexandria). Maximum passenger speed is 70 mph passenger, 60 mph for intermodal. There is one diamond on the route, at Doswell, VA with the Buckingham Branch RR, 40 mph for freight/60 mph for passenger. DC motor locomotives have to reduce to no more than notch 4 to prevent traction motor flash-over on the diamond. You have to bypass that somehow, maybe start the tunnel for Ashland further north, although there are the North and South Anna Rivers to cross between Doswell and Ashland. Maybe they should look to going east of the entire area from around Milford? That way they would miss the grade up to Ruther Glen altogether. The grade down to Main St. Station from Acca Yard is pretty steep. I don't know the exact percent, but I've taken coal trains from Fulton Yard on the former C&O up to the RF&P, and needed helpers to do it. That is the current route passenger trains from the RF&P use to get to Main St. Station and Newport News. There is probably some room in the vicinity of Fulton Yard for turnaround and servicing passenger trains south of Main St. station, although the area can flood from the James River, it's known as Shockoe Bottom. It's the area where the famous triple crossing is.

[@LucidStew]

Thanks for sharing your perspective. It's very informative. One alternative the DC2RVA study looked at was using the Piedmont Subdivision instead of RF&P from Doswell into Main St.. Maybe there is a way to snake between the two lines to the east of I-95. It's only about 9 miles. With the Doswell diamond, they might just accept the slower rate since they'll be slowing for Ashland anyway, although with this Franconia-Springfield Bypass, they certainly show a willingness to spend a little on separating the two halves of the route. I've seen pictures of that area around the Main St. station flooded. I did consider a more radical proposal of cut and cover of Broad St. through the downtown area and having a station there, but one assumes even a $16 billion option is unlikely to be funded any time this century, so I left it out of the video. Overall, the station question for Richmond is a tough one because settling for park and ride at Staples Mill is hardly satisfying for an idea attempting to connect urban areas.

[@paulw.woodring7304]

@@LucidStew It's still several miles from Doswell to Ashland after the diamond. Freight trains have trouble getting back up to speed before Ashland because the line is up and down around the two river crossings and then a steady climb into Ashland, but Amtrak just powers right back up to track speed after the diamond. I like the idea of using the Piedmont Sub to get around the Greendale/Acca area bottleneck. I'm guessing most advocates want to leave Staples Mill station altogether? Ashland is picturesque, but idiot motorists are constantly turning onto the tracks instead of the street they are looking for, and only a few regional trains stop there anyway. BTW, Ashland was 35 mph daylight and 45 mph overnight for speed limit when I was there, and it's also a "quite zone" for whistling.

[@stickynorth]

It still feels strange that after all these years there are no high speed rail trains South of DC... Especially when there's clearly a SE corridor as impressive as the BOS-NY-WASH one in the Richmond-Raleigh-Charlotte-Atlanta-Birmingham region...

[@LucidStew]

off the top of my head, it seems like it could be about as fast as NEC is currently if they electrified the whole thing.

[@jonathanstensberg]

Yes, there is an obvious southeast corridor between DC and ATL. However, it has nothing close to the ridership potential of the NEC due to 1) much lower populations along the route and 2) longer distances between the cities. CityNerd has done pretty serious analysis on this, and the ridership potential drops off massively south of Richmond. To be clear, this is an obvious corridor for HSR, but we can’t pretend it is comparable to the NEC.

[@LucidStew]

@@jonathanstensberg At the same time, the southeast region is one of the fastest growing in the country.

[@jonathanstensberg]

@@LucidStew Yes, there is relatively rapid growth, meaning it will get better over time. But even if the Charlotte metro added 1M/decade--much faster than its current growth--it would still take more than a century to reach the size of the NYC metro, which is the ultimate driver of ridership on the NEC.

[@fjkelley4774]

@@jonathanstensberg Which is actually an argument for gettings the rights-of-way now. Yes, practically nothing else in the country could compare with the NYC metro now. But these areas are growing rapidly. Practically everything north and west of the Fall Line until you reach the actual Appalachins. Outside Virginia and North Carolina, political will seems weak, however.

[@StefanWithTrains3222]

It feels like christmas with Lucid stew and Banks rail releasing Acela video's!

[@stickynorth]

100% and I'm Canadian. Obsessed with these video's!!!

[@StefanWithTrains3222]

@@stickynorth I am Dutch and yes, me too!

[@ezekielcarsella]

@@StefanWithTrains3222 a pleasure to have y'all aboard! we can all join together in hoping for a better tomorrow!

[@ramanshah7627]

Maybe I'm too traumatized by recent history, but your narration of "Acela on New Geometry" gave me the heebies. Its density of rural tunnels, viaducts, and private property conflicts reminded me a lot of CAHSR and the experience of sitting around for years watching Middle of Nowhere Viaduct sit in purgatory. Thanks as always for the amazing content :)

[@DanielSchramm]

Was feeling the same, thinking "$16B seems too low for all these tunnels and viaducts" given what we've seen with CAHSR.

[@stickynorth]

Plan #4 please... It's time America extended the Acela system South... All the way to Miami if I had my way but to Atlanta and Birmingham for now makes sense!

[@user-uo7fw5bo1o]

Birmingham then to Jackson Mississippi and New Orleans (or Baton Rouge or both)

[@andrewdiamond2697]

Honestly, to Atlanta would be fine. Then more frequent Next-Gen Siemens Charger locomotive service the rest of the way to NOLA. Given the distances and populations, it would be really hard to justify electrification past Atlanta.

[@NarasimhaDiyasena]

That’s bright line territory. Brightline has the unique ability to build out the whole of Florida, objecting it with Mobile, New Orleans, Savannah, and Atlanta

[@andrewdiamond2697]

@@NarasimhaDiyasena There just isn't enough density. HSR likely needs to have airport hubs. Brightline hubs with MCO (Orlando), The Southeast Corridor could hub with RDU, CLT, and ATL. The idea would be that rail would replace some of the shorter, highest frequency airline routes, and act as a feeder and distributor for these major airports. Honestly, even Atlanta-Orlando has too low of a population density in between and are too far apart as city pairs to have rail replace airlines effectively.

[@clevelandwest9276]

It would make since to extend it to Atlanta and follow interstate 85 because of the cities ...on 95 south of Richmond its not a city populated with over a million ppl until you get to Jacksonville thats like 500 miles of unnecessary rail through marshes and farm land

[@RailMan102_Productions]

I like the 2nd route! It is 2hr 29mins to get from DC to Richmond by car, this is definitely gonna be a game changer, If they pull through with it. Which I hope they do

[@LucidStew]

Yeah, I didn't think it was too bad either. Or even VPRA doing something similar but slightly slower, although it would be nice if they did it before the 22nd century... The nice thing really about the 2nd option is that its essentially electrified option 3, so they could still do that in future even if they worked toward option 3 in the mid-term.

[@RailMan102_Productions]

@@LucidStew The 2nd option should be more for the Siemen Trains, or like commuter Trains because it goes through Ashland VA. Option 4 should be their main goal if Amtrak wants to utilize the Aleca Alstom Express Trains to their fullest potential. Which I hope they do

[@christucker3413]

Richmond Main Street Station needs high speed rail

[@soulofamerica]

The $16 billion option is a no-brainer

[@patrickdougherty6390]

It use to be electrified to Potomac Yards until Conrail quit electric motors for their freight service.

[@pacificostudios]

I think that avoiding the Ashland city streets is the #1 priority, followed by the curves near Fredericksburg. I think a lot more can be done with the I-95 right of way, since passenger trains can easily surmount 3% grades, and train tracks can be supported by columns. An average speed of 119 MPH would be competitive with alternatives, definitely.

[@LucidStew]

Perhaps if they reconfigured the express lanes. Right now you'd have a lot of weaving around on/offramps and switching sides that would slow things down beyond just dealing with the freeway row geometry as a limitation. The best place to jump into the I-95 row is probably the intersection with U.S. 1, but you have a tough few miles to navigate before I-95 becomes easier to deal with.

[@pacificostudios]

@@LucidStew I think you'd be surprised how easy it would be to install columns around the express lanes for a 160 MPH track. Or, depending on local geology, setting up a TBM might be a cost-effective alternative, especially at major interchanges. Unless the tracks follow I-95, NIMBYs will block the project, especially given the number of Civil War sites in the area. I agree that Colchester is where the HSR route should transition from ex-RF&P to I-95. The curves near the Occoquan River are too sharp for HSR anyway. The new line should go back to RF&P at I-95 and I-64. Especially along the expressway areas, the HSR line should run alongside I-95. With 3% grades, the line can duck under ramps to and from the highway with minimum grading required. Indeed rather than building and maintaining bridge abutments and foundations, I would look into erecting a large BEBO bridge, a large pre-engineered concrete culvert buried under roads. BTW, CHSRA is protected by a protective wall from traffic running off CA 99 -- not a mere Jersey Barrier -- north of Fresno. That's a good example of how to run HSR along a freeway.

[@audvidgeek]

would be cool to have an Ashland subway station...you walk into the existing station, then ride escalators or elevator to the underground one to catch the Acela

[@lamegaming9835]

I agree on most of this video except the Fredericksburg bypass. I don’t see a world where that would happen since Fredericksburg is a pretty big commuter town. If anything, Fredericksburg would benefit a ton from this project with high speed connection to DC. The bends near Doswell is the biggest issue with the ROW, I definitely think they should build in the median of 95 for that

[@LucidStew]

Fredericksburg loop as discussed @ 12:02. As far as I can see there is no viable connection which would increase speed between Fredericksburg and D.C. Use of a trunk like proposed in option 4 WOULD be faster to Richmond by about 15 minutes over option 2.

[@JNSquire]

If the new train route is going to decrease traffic, then just replace that annoying expressway! This option offers less cost-rising tunneling and litigation with potentially demolished homeowners.

[@daniellewis1789]

Politically, that's a nonstarter. Cutting roadway capacity into DC isn't going to get funding until - at minimum - you substantially boost your rail ridership to a similarly large demographic as drivers.

[@ezekielcarsella]

maybe in the next 15-20 years if VA/NC/amtrak efforts pay off, but i don't see it being politically viable now. Whoever designed that is a criminal tho

[@LucidStew]

A more practical possibility may be a redesign of the expressway that allows room for the train as well. South of Dale City there is room for both were it not for the expressway's inefficient land use.

[@ericwashington2171]

If running acela down to Richmond or even more Regionals with limited stops can pull some of the traffic off 95 I think it's brilliant and worth the price

[@michaelimbesi2314]

Option 2, 3, or 4 are all great. Option 4 would be the best if you could get the money, especially because it would have an average speed greater than anything on the NEC.

[@bjturon]

Great video! A very pragmatic approach from HrSR to VHSR options.

[@notrickross4]

as an amtrak employee, thank you so so much for making this. the content and production is incredible. keep em coming!

[@rollinwithunclepete824]

Very Interesting! Thanks

[@LucentLunarch]

Option 4 is amazing, and would really change how people lives in Virginia. Although I can already hear the screams about NOVA expanding ever outwards. Option 2 feels very doable, and would still be a big improvement!

[@banksrail]

8:07 Probably should use the Upgrade Cost for Amtrak to upgrade the New Haven to Boston Corridor as the other projects you used to access the prices are building rail and stations from scratch. Stations which take up the bulk of the cost for building HSR. Great video anyway! 👍🏾

[@cats0182]

Here's an easy way, AMTRAK buys and operartes dual-mode locos (catenary+diesel prime mover) on the NEC between Boston and Newport News, Richmond, Roanoke, etc. No change of locos needed in DC AND trains run through with little delay.

[@kevinb8881]

That's what Amtrak plans to do anyway, speed up travel time!!

[@LucidStew]

The VPRA long term option is basically what will happen over the course of the next 30 years without some change in direction or massive funding boon.

[@tequestaorangejuice6673]

After watching your video on HSR along the Keystone corridor, I have always wanted you to elaborate on three relevant topics: 1. HSR between DC and Pittsburgh, going through Hagerstown, MD, connecting with your proposed Keystone corridor along I-76 near Chambersburg/Fort Loudon, PA 2. similarly, HSR between NYC and Pittsburgh, going through Allentown and Reading, then connecting with Keystone along I-76 at Harrisburg (perhaps this is superfluous given that it may be just as fast to reach Pittsburgh from NYC through Philly, but I have always thought these western Pennsylvania cities (+Hagerstown, MD) deserved significant regional integration with the NEC and any connection westward to Pittsburgh and beyond). ^^^ the above proposals would enable high speed travel to Pittsburgh and beyond from DC, Philly, and NYC, as well as from all the aformentioned smaller cities - HUGE OPPORTUNITY. 3. my final request is for you to elaborate on a HSR connection between Pittsburgh and Chicago, presumably and preferably through Cleveland then Toledo (with connection to Detroit) then Fort Wayne and finally Chicago Union Station. I would like to hear your thoughts on the relevance of potential stops on the way to Cleveland: the route could make stops at Youngstown and Akron, avoiding Canton, or it could go to Canton and then Akron, avoiding Youngstown... or it could avoid them all so we could get fastest direct distance to Cleveland. What are your thoughts?? Definitely good video ideas ^^^

[@LucidStew]

The FRA corridor series is really in aid of familiarizing myself with the various regions so I can build my own US HSR map proposal, which has been a long-running request. Within that you're probably going to have 3 possible crossings of the Appalachians: Buffalo-Cleveland via upstate New York. Covered most of that in the Empire video. Probably not happening. The Keystone video area crossing, of course. Then likely Atlanta-Nashville. Not sure if any others are necessary or tenable for any foreseeable future. However, the topic isn't going anywhere as very little improvement in the national HSR landscape is going to occur over the course of DECADES. I'll probably cover just about any idea anyone can think of, eventually. I've looked at Cleveland-Pittsburgh as part of the Chicago Hub video. Continuing on to Cleveland has been a request from the Keystone video, so that will almost surely happen. Not sure on the timeline, though.

[@hudson5112]

Love the idea of using Main Street Station instead of that pathetic excuse for a train station isolated way out on Staples Mill Road. Pity that Broad Street Station couldn't be revived. The location and grandeur of that once magnificent train station would be perfect for expediting north/south train service into and through Richmond!

[@LucidStew]

I looked at few options there. I really wanted to cut and cover under Broad St. into downtown, but it seemed pretty expensive already.

[@owenstockwood5040]

Looks good, although I would also add a new station on the outskirts of Fredricksburg, probably near one of the major roads, as that is a fairly large city that would likely benefit significantly from Acela service. A stop may add a few minutes, but would probably not increase journey times Richmond-DC to much more than 1 hour.

[@LucidStew]

I had considered it. It would likely work better to have a loop through Fredericksburg on a single track and be able to stop at the station in the middle of town there, reconnecting with the high speed trunk in roughly Quantico and Guinea. That could also hook up with other stops looking to ultimately utilize the high speed trunk into Richmond.

[@owenstockwood5040]

@@LucidStew Fair point, that would probably work too. At that point I would probably consider 2 different Acela stopping patterns, with a slower service going Richmond-Fredricksburg-Alexandria-DC-all Acela stops to Boston, and a faster one going Richmond-DC-Baltimore-Wilmington-Philladelphia-Newark-NY-New Haven-Providence-Boston. Each service would probably run hourly, or even half hourly, although some trains may terminate short at either DC southbound or NY northbound depending on timetabling.

[@nordisk1874]

Out of all the expansions ideas this is the best. I was shocked on how well maintained the line was through North Carolina. I took the Auto Train recently and you know Super Liners rock but not as much in Virginia and NC. It has the population to do it and the infrastructure. This and the Philly-Pittsburg route are really the best options for expansion of Acela service.

[@dante6563]

This would be awesome!!!

[@adambuesser6264]

What I do not like in Richmons is I 95 right next to Union Station. If only I 95 can go around the city.

[@patmanbnl]

When 295 was built the original plan was for it to become 95 since the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike was a toll road. That plan was dropped when tolls ended in the early 90's.

[@tslckr]

Running the interstates to city centers was a horrible decision. That led to urban blight in many cities.

[@sharonshaw2352]

As a Richmond resident, I would love to see that fourth option done but I also wonder if you put the high-speed rail in the space of the express lanes that would accommodate a sector of traffic that perhaps would get rid of the need for the express express lanes

[@jbaldwin1368]

$16 billion to essentially turn Richmond into a suburb of DC? That’s an amazing deal!

[@Over3900]

This really needs to happen, and has been talked about in the past. They really need to get the wires extended to Richmond.

[@45Steamer]

I would go with Option 2

[@iliketrains0pwned]

Expanding this idea even further: Amtrak service from Richmond to Norfolk through Williamsburg and Newport News. Even if it isn't high speed, it would be an IMMENSE improvement for traffic around the I-95 and I-64 corridors. Especially since it could become a much needed alternative to the congested bridge tunnels across the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay.

[@JohnCharlesHutt]

Great video. Would be very helpful if near the end of the video you provided a summary table comparing the time saved and cost of each alternative. Thanks.

[@LucidStew]

Quick recap at the end. Good idea. Thanks for the feedback.

[@elkabong6429]

I hope this happens in my lifetime! I twice a year to NYC from RVR. It's 6.5 hrs on a good day, usually longer. I would definitely go more often if it was cut down to 4.5 hours! Thanks for the in-depth analyses.

[@LucidStew]

I think electrification of the national rail network is an inevitability. The question is how long it will take. I doubt it would start any sooner than 20-30 years from now.

[@elkabong6429]

@@LucidStew Well, kinda like I said: probably not in my lifetime (I’m in my late sixties)! 😆 Anyway, I enjoyed the video and have subscribed!

[@audvidgeek]

You mention Main street station in each one of these routes. Currently, although that station is in use, the primary station for Richmond is on Staples Mill Road in the suburbs. Amtrak has been spending money on this station recently, upgrading the terminal building, and adding additional parking. main street station does not have parking for car commuters

[@user-uo7fw5bo1o]

Amazing idea that should be brought to reality but I think it should be extended even further to Tidewater Virginia via the Interstate 64 corridor!

[@absolutezeronow7928]

Politics will probably force a run through Fredericksburg on the existing ROW and will probably nix a trench through Ashland. Upgrading NEC from DC to Richmond would definitely improve things for the region though.

[@LucidStew]

I don't think there is a reasonable HSR path through Fredericksburg, so a local loop would be functionally the same as current to the north from there. The ability to hook into an HSR trunk 12 miles south of Fredericksburg would cut about 15 mins off a trip to Richmond. For Ashland, there is enough room for a deep bore tunnel and the electric option removes some of the negatives. The sites on either end would keep visible construction outside of town. Really you just have local environmental impacts and emergency access to deal with.

[@k34561]

Kings Dominion!! Amtrak should have yearly family days at Kings Dominion and invite CSX families (And any other nearby rail families). This will foster passenger and freight rail cooperation at all levels.

[@earlfreeman93]

I favor the last one you mentioned which came in at sixteen billion dollars; because I think it about time we started to separate our passenger trains from our freight trains as much as possible. We also need to nationalize the freight mainline corridors so that we can realign them for higher speed freight services and longer trains; which the new alignment would bypass the center of most towns and cities in the form of a freightbahn (a freight train interstate).

[@de-fault_de-fault]

Anything that could be done here is better than what it is. It just bugs the hell out of me that it takes as long to go from Richmond to DC as it does to go from DC to New York currently. It's particularly annoying because if you're trying to drive from one to the other, it's the part between Fredericksburg and DC that makes it absolutely intolerable, especially if you're headed north. It's entirely possible for the drive to be almost as long as the current 7 hr rail journey anyway, depending on traffic, so chipping away at the rail travel time in any way possible will have a big impact.

[@alexisdespland4939]

a stop should be built for the kings dominion amusemant park.

[@audvidgeek]

that would be awesome, but I doubt KD would be up for it. They would loose the revenue off of charging visitors parking fees

[@hhvhhvcz]

sounds like a bargain and actually very feasible, like the route is better than HS2 in UK which gets fuckton of no reason tunnels. Why is it not being built right now again..?

[@LucidStew]

Biggest reasons are probably cost and resistance from CSX. This will likely fade over time as climate change legislation puts increasing pressure on the freight rail companies to electrify in the coming decades. Although, they MAY be able to avoid that with hydrogen...

[@Db_traveler]

If we’re building it, build it right! Option 4. No use spending all that money to not have what we really want. If option 2 or 3 were to ever be upgraded to option 4 it would cost much more due to inflation.

[@commercialcritic4676]

Sweet!

[@spencerjoplin2885]

You know the route is underdeveloped when the more expensive options are a better value in terms of cost per hour saved: No-build express: $small/hr Acela current geometry: $7.1 billion/hr VPRA longer term: $6.7 billion/hr. Acela new geometry: $4.2 billion/hr. With ridership data, you could calculate value to humanity in units of dollars per passenger-hour (or even per human lifetime saved).

[@LucidStew]

nice observation

[@animalsandnaturegroup101]

I think that in the future that there should be a option that connects to Ashburn, VA as there is major growth in that area. Could also add to Leasburg though route 7.

[@dukeonwheels]

Number 4 is definitely my favorite option. Those Alstom Avelia train sets can easily reach a top operating speed of 200 mph. That should be the goal (see Brightline West), not a measly 160 mph that Europe and Asia blew past 30 years ago. True HSR should have grade separated tracks that are as straight as possible for much of the distance. You would think that would be easier to accomplish in the south with all the land, but I-95 is remarkably over engineered with express lanes and overpasses that do nothing to alleviate traffic.

[@LucidStew]

In my opinion, after having spent some time figuring it out, a politically possible 200mph path does not exist here. The required radii would cause too much destruction, too much environmental damage, and would also likely be too expensive. 160 just barely squeezed through.

[@leonwilson1405]

Politics must have been involved preventing electrification of the rail route from D.C. to Richmond, VA. This route should have been electrified years ago enabling travel time to be shorten tremendously. The traffic between the two cities is huge.

[@AustinSersen]

Please, please, please make option 4 happen within the next 15 years!

[@jmegp]

Of course my favorite is option 4 for a measly amount of $16B and we all know if that ever comes to reality, that amount will balloon to $64B.

[@unsayableorc2434]

I don't think local officials or residents would accept a tunnel under Ashland. They love their trains and the railroad going through town and would probably love to have Acelas running through town at grade. I would imagine it would be option #4 up until around Doswell, and then Option #2 into Richmond. It would also be cool to see Acelas terminating at Richmond Union Station (Now the Science Museum of VA) instead of Main Street. However this would require a good amount of infrastructure and land acquisition since most of the tracks have been ripped up.

[@deemanDavid]

I am a supporter of transit but that Springfield highway interchange needed so many more lanes than were there when i grew up. Various major exits in a short span with less than transit friendly neighborhoods made it needed at the time.

[@DMVRailfan]

Here’s what I say. Because the Acela is more of a business service, keep it on the DC-Boston route and don’t extend it South. YET. Electrify the line and allow for NER services to run to Richmond. When the SE Corridor opens or IF it opens, then the two can be linked and electric trains could run all the way from Massachusetts to the Carolinas.

[@richardmoore899]

id be intrigued what a I 95 Redesign to allow for rail Right of way would do to you're plans. On the basis that you're improving Roads Americans would love that XD.

[@LucidStew]

It would be easier because the government owns the land. Minimal land acquisition, relatively minimal local opposition. Cheaper. Time difference between that and a 160mph greenfield option is likely minimal. Also offers a decent station site for Fredericksburg. But if you factor the cost of reconfiguring the express lanes in, likely most of your savings go away. It's just too bad it wasn't considered and that they were quite liberal in wasting space.

[@KarateTeddy27]

Honestly if it were possible to have some station in Fredericksburg even if that means a slight reduction in speed would be worth it due to how fast the area is growing

[@LOOTLABELS]

You should try to extend to NC next

[@mercernd25]

What are your thoughts on having the Richmond-Staples Mill station be the high speed terminus? That station has way more traffic than Main Street station although that would maybe change if there were better train options and parking at Main Street.

[@LucidStew]

Seems kind of out there. The idea was to bring the traffic into the city and facilitate urban structure. I like the Science Museum better than both Staples Mill and Main St., but converting it back seems unlikely

[@alberickarina-plun72]

Man I wish it took 20 minutes to switch locomotives at Union Station (Alexandria native)

[@LucidStew]

In your experience, how long does it take?

[@Zero76606]

Really digging the color/speed overlay, that's a useful visualization. I'd be curious to see the 250mph ROW radii thrown in for fun. Presumably it's an order of magnitude more expensive than 160mph, but that's probably a topic for another video. I assume there's an inflection point where ROW costs versus speeds go vertical, depending on geography. Could the midwest support a 300 mph ROW between Chicago and Houston? Etc.

[@LucidStew]

250mph is about 4 1/2 miles minimum radius. CAHSR, which will be tested at 242mph uses 6 mile radius curves in the Central Valley. I have these 160mph curves at 2 miles, and really the area can't support more than that without a significant amount of damage. In wide open areas it isn't that difficult to thread the needle, but you have to consume a lot of properties, which is one of the reasons CAHSR has run into trouble. Topography can also make that a real challenge for any reasonable cost because its much more difficult to go around at speed.

[@wintermath3173]

I have a question: what would residents of this region have to do to get government to seriously consider a proposal like #4?

[@stickynorth]

Agreed! Kickstarter? Petition? Anything!

[@LucidStew]

Well, they'd have to be willing to pay for it for one thing. Then, you have political opposition to overcome from every imaginable angle.

[@JordanPeace]

It all comes down to creating political will, essentially convincing elected officials at the local, state, and federal levels that this is something enough of their voters want that they should make it happen. There are various ways to do this, contacting elected officials directly, joining advocacy groups for transit projects in your local community, supporting and voting for candidates who support transit projects, whatever ways you can make your voice heard or create enough of a collective voice to make transit a priority in the various levels of government.

[@jayjaenyc]

This is my favorite Stew. Hope Virginia electrifies to Richmond in the near future

[@michlschade2236]

Amtrak between Richmond and DC, as it is now, is torture. That stretch between Staples Mill (whose signs deceptively call Richmond) and downtown Richmond is painfully slow. The Virginia governor and Richmond mayor need to look at a map to see how tantalizingly close Richmond is to the Northeast corridor, and the opportunities that would come from being a part of it. Then, push like hell for full funding for track straightening to make 160 MPH possible. Virginia Passenger Rail Authority is applauded for a good plan with actual progress, but it will take leadership and willpower to turbocharge funding and realize the corridor's full potential.

[@kyletopfer7818]

I wonder if just bypassing Ashland-Fredericksberg in addition to doing the tunnel you outlined south of Quantico would be enough time savings on their own to be worthwhile without having to actually spend massive dollars.

[@brucehain]

Going through Ashland the planners devised the bulkiest and most intrusive installation they could muster, using it as an excuse to limit it to two tracks. If you built it like any 90-year-old NYC subway it'd be easy enough to get four tracks on the same level with plenty of room to spare. Instead of steel they had super-thick concrete walls between the tracks. Suspiciously thick. I never saw any possibility to diverge anywhere north of Fredericksburg but that short tunnel looks like a good idea. I can't say skipping Fredericksburg doesn't just defeat the purpose, but yeh it's serpentine and somehow I surmised it's the best possible route given a modern upgrade with complete grade separation.

[@LucidStew]

I was thinking more in terms of express traffic coming from south of Richmond and then a local loop for Fredericksburg. They wouldn't lose any time going north. Maybe pick up a minute from the shortcut. Going south would be ~15 mins faster on the new trunk, which from Fredericksburg's point of view would only skip Ashland, and even then, the option would remain for service to stop there if it didn't take the tunnel.

[@brucehain]

@@LucidStew I was really nonplussed trying to direct that thing south of Fredericksburg, but going from east of it might work better. The only thing good I found between there and Florida was a tunnel station in Richmond by the convention center, and another tunnel station in Charleston that made it about as direct as possible. There's abandoned stretches south of both of them that would be used. I did get in the group but didn't know what to do after that. I'll try again. I sent Indianapolis- Vegas by email, but since figured out how to make the lines cross at the station in Springfield, IL. It wouldn't work with all the traffic on one level there. Now back to frantically trying to finish certain stuff from around here. Seems to go faster if I break from it. Soon it'll be too late on all 'counts' so can go back to it as a passtime, which works better for me.

[@LucidStew]

@@brucehain I was thinking tunnel through Richmond down Broad St. as well, but thought it expensive, considering, and did not include it in the video. I didn't really look at it much south of there. A Richmond-Raleigh video will mostly look at the possibilities of getting the CSX S-Line above 110mph beyond the R2R project. Raleigh-Charlotte looks difficult at a glance. I'll check my email. I'm terrible at checking, but eager to see. LV-IND is fairly monumental.

[@NES2728]

I have some knowledge of this corridor which I will share. I don't believe that you grasped that the point that the plan covered by the EIS establishes a double-track, passenger-only/predominantly-passenger railroad from I-295 (north of Staples Mill station) to SR 288 via the S-Line, via Main St. station in Downtown Richmond (leaving the CSX A-Line to CSX freight, and Auto-train). Staples Mill station is to get 2 high-level platforms of Acca freight yard (to be accessed via a pedway over the yard). No need to tunnel under the yard. The line down the hill to Main street will be triple-tracked, with two tracks to be reserved for passenger trains and light pusher engines returning down the hill. A second bridge will be constructed over the James River and the second main track will be restored south of there. I have my own plan for a 37-mile long passenger-only route that would pick up the passenger tracks at I-295 and build a connection over to I-95 where it would follow its east side until Arcadia where the track would diverge to return to the CSX alignment about 4 miles south of the end of VRE service at Spotsylvania. This would bypass Ashland, avoiding your proposed tunnel. By being on a track not adjacent to CSX the prohibitions on operation over 90 mph and electrification would not apply. Airo trains could raise the pans.

[@CABOOSEBOB]

Can we have you look at a 200 mph option from dc to Atlanta?

[@alexisdespland4939]

it should include ugrading washigton l'enfant station to intercity service standard and also a new station either for the pentagon or under washingto reagan national airport.

[@MikeWillSee]

Very nice video presenting some interesting options for enhancing this section of line, but I do wonder why you always assume a top speed of 160MPH for the Avelia Liberty trainsets, when Alstom has clearly stated that they're capable of 186MPH. Wouldn't it make more sense to design for their actual top speed, rather than the speed they're currently limited to by infrastructure constraints? Anyway I look forward to your future productions, which are always very high quality and entertaining!

[@LucidStew]

Because that is their operating limit and that is a good goal to aim for. I do not however, always assume this as a limitation. My other NEC video has a Philadelphia bypass where I'm assuming 200mph top operating speed. In the case of this, geometry supporting 160mph just barely fit through the area without causing major damage.

[@MikeWillSee]

@@LucidStew ah alright that makes sense, thanks for the reply!

[@paulkoza8652]

I live in Ashland. Tunneling under the town is quite an undertaking. This is because of the soil structure here. It is clay, some of th worst I've seen. When it rains, water does not permeate well. If water does, it is like slop. When dry, it is like concrete. I hope you have taken this into consideration in your cost estimates.

[@LucidStew]

Technology has advanced considerably in recent decades to allow boring through just about any ground type.

[@thetrainguy1]

Technically the Auto train would be able to use the new ROW.

[@RVail623]

Slightly off-topic: what's going to happen to the older Acela train sets, once their replacements get finalized for service? Maybe replacing with diesel power engines instead of electrified? Seems like a San Antonio - Houston commuter service would be worth considering?

[@daniellewis1789]

They're worn slap out and full of obsolete control components. They're either scrap or museum pieces. Or, in theory you could do the mid-life overhaul Amtrak turned down as less cost effective than the Avelia fleet, but for that money you could get new equipment. It's like NC with the circus cars.

[@LucidStew]

Acela Express museum when? :D

[@animal5085]

I thought it was already extended (Up to Newport News along the south Virginia coast)

[@jbreezy101]

I’d rather see electrification to Springfield, MA (or Burlington VT) and Roanoke and Newport News, VA and maybe even to Pittsburgh plus investing in the ALP45DP for the NE Rgnls that go to those cities (especially the ones they’re not electrifying).

[@kirkrotger9208]

Is there a reason why the greenfield path wouldn't take full advantage of the Acela 2's 220 mph top speed or at least the 186 mph top speed with tilting enabled? The route you've illustrated seems like it would be capable of it.

[@LucidStew]

Because it just barely makes it through on geometry that supports 160mph.

[@comeradecoyote]

Have you considered reactivation of the new station (aka the richmond science museum), or is that right of way too challenging?

[@LucidStew]

Yes. It didn't sound likely. I also considered tunnelling under Broad St. into the downtown area, but it would be rather expensive and disruptive.

[@comeradecoyote]

@@LucidStew i think the Broadstreet station reactivation is probably one of the easier ones to do, along with Cincinatti union. Basically everything remains but the concourses. But if main street station in richmond is going to take the brunt of traffic, it might be necessary to build a new larger concourse and station adjacent.

[@TimothyLipinski]

Great Video ! Just Say NO to Grade Crossings ! ! ! Inter State mediums should allow room for High-Speed RAIL ! Say NO to Green House Gasses (CO2, ...) and power High Speed Rail with GREEN Nuclear Power Plants (clean and reliable) to let our young kids breathe CLEAN Air ! tjl

[@nolunchiseverfree]

The greenfield option would also allow NEC service to run at increased speed, so it benefits not just Acela.

[@LucidStew]

Right. And you have the possibility of hooking up with a Fredericksburg loop in the existing RF&P row through there. Seems likely this particular greenfield proposal would mostly benefit regional travel to Richmond, as it acquiesces to the current right of way quite a bit toward Washington D.C.

[@travisfinucane]

Love how the eminent domain solution is effected by nuclear strike

[@LucidStew]

Well, it is undesirable and generally unpopular, so its a bit of a nuclear option, all things considered.

[@Zombiexm]

If a tunnel was put under ashland , would that mean the surface tracks would still be there used for csx, and local trains?

[@LucidStew]

Yeah, the only chance of getting a tunnel through there is to keep diesel-electric out of it and eliminate the need to ventilate it, so they'd need to run freight on the surface. North and south of there you'd then have 4 tracks. Basically through Ashland they'd be stacked vertically.

[@ReedmanFL]

Amtrak makes a PROFIT on it's AutoTrain (Virginia to Florida). Extending AutoTrain north (to New Jersey or Boston) would not require high speed track (i.e. high speed rail requires much larger curve radii, both horizontal and vertical). A second, east-west AutoTrain (LA to Jacksonville or Philadelphia to Denver), would likely be successful as well

[@MikeWiggins1235711]

ReedmanFL: Just remember, due to their height, the AutoTrain rail cars can not be used on tracks with catenary lines. Even Stew mentioned that non-standard cars would have to be abandoned if the lines between DC and Richmond were electrified.

[@perkypatlayouts]

The video focuses on Richmond Main Street Station, but the majority of trains that stop in Richmond don't use Main Street Station. They use Staples Mill Station. Look at Amtrak schedules. Also, the transit times to and from Richmond are fairly imaginary. The vast majority of trains arrive and depart significantly late, anywhere from 15 minutes to several hours. An on-time train through Richmond is a rarity. Usually blame is attributed to CSX, but sometimes it's the restricted exit from DC Union Station into NOVA. Also note that Amtrak has at least one grade crossing between Staples Mill Station and Main Street Station at Hermitage Road, a fairly busy urban thoroughfare that supports the local AA Minor League ball field and future Diamond District BallPark development.

[@jg-7780]

Any reason for tunneling under Ashland instead of bypassing through the nearby forests and farmland? You'd need to cut through a bunch of property, but it would probably be cheaper than a tunnel, no?

[@LucidStew]

its slower and less tenable politically

[@audvidgeek]

it was tried in the past to get right-of-way. Residents of Ashland didnt want trains to bypass the town, and people in the outlying farms and neighborhoods didn't want the rail lines running through their yards. According to the residents of Ashland, many use the train to travel to points north and south, although I rarely ever see but a handful of people getting on or off when I ride the Northeast regional

[@audvidgeek]

There are a multitude of grade crossings in the northern suburbs of Richmond. It's at least 4-5 across the suburban roads. There is HEAVY freight rail traffic on this CSX line. If passenger lines are going to operate at 160mph, those grade crossings would need to be modified with either bridges or under-passes. Electrifying the rail line would not be an option as the slow moving freight traffic would need to be passed easily.

[@295g295]

14:18 - You do not mention the Amtrak station at Staples Mill Road, Richmond.

[@dogbert32]

This right here. Staples Mill really is the primary station for going North.

[@LucidStew]

Yeah, suburban park and ride stations are for regional rail, not express.

[@dogbert32]

@@LucidStew and going to Main Street would just make downtown traffic situations worse for a city without strong local mass transit.

[@Thisoldhiker]

@@LucidStew Because of poor soil and swamps east of the city, Richmond's downtown is not really the center of the region. The former Broad Street station (Science museum) is more like it.

[@nightowl5793]

Option 4

[@alexisdespland4939]

ultamately when the two gateway tunels are done the richmond service should be made to go down the length of long islans to ronkonkoma.

[@SkinsNatsCaps]

"this would require some accommodation from CSX..." yeah, that company isn't going to do anything they aren't forced to do.

[@LucidStew]

That's possible. Just requires the right Congressional makeup.

[@GavinColbert]

Do extension from Boston to Portland, ME via NSRL project

[@RKreflex]

didn't the freight company say no electrification when virginia bought the track between rva and dc?

[@LucidStew]

things change

[@RKreflex]

@@LucidStew thru efforts, not magically

[@fjkelley4774]

The Main Street Station? That's still in use? Is Broad Street still around?

[@timothystamm3200]

Broad Street is dead. The 1970s Amtrak station on the edge of town replaced it.

[@fjkelley4774]

@@timothystamm3200 OK, thanks. I had thought *both* of the old stations were no longer in use. A bit surprised that Main Street is the one to survive.

[@LucidStew]

The area is really more important than the station itself. I was trying to get close to an area that had the capacity to urbanize in support of the station. Another end point I considered was tunnelling under Broad St. to about where the convention center is. The old Broad St. station isn't a bad location, but I don't think reversion from the Science Museum would happen.

[@fjkelley4774]

@@LucidStew Doesn't the James River flood in that area every few years? Not too sure about having tracks too low. That said, I take your point about the area being the important consideration.

[@tmorganriley]

Main Street Station was closed in the 1970s when Staples Mill opened, but was then refurbished and re-opened for Amtrak in the 2003, due to a desire for a stop near the State Capitol and revitalizing downtown (a lot of people live nearby it now), and since the run to Williamsburg-Newport News goes by it anyways. Staples Mill is still the "main" full-service station for the RVA metro, however.

[@hairypotter259]

Real

[@warrenwarner6157]

Improve the Northeast Corridor!

[@henrylubinski2728]

Option 4, nice piece of fiction. Way too costly with absolutely no chance of a return on investment.

[@nicholaswestfall9695]

Option 4, while great could never happen. Ideas like this have been genuinely floated but the costs are too great and the blowback from the areas impacted is immense. Also, Ashland is a pain in the butt about all things that will help others so tunneling under it wouldn't happen in a million years. On top of that, Main Street station, while amazing, isn't even the primary station in Richmond. That'd be Staples Mills (which is total crap) which is where the high-speed connection to NC would go through. So, Option 2 or the VPRA plans are the only real options. But this is an amazingly well thought out idea that I wish had a snowballs chance in hell of becoming reality.

[@LucidStew]

According to the DC2RVA record of decision, the preferred option for the project in the Richmond area is for Staples Mill and Main St. to both act as full service stations.

[@nicholaswestfall9695]

@@LucidStew Yes, they are adding services and but the way the station is set up the only route out of it is east towards Williamsburg and Newport News. Now they could reactivate the western side of the station but that wouldn't link up with the proposals line improvements heading south. Which sucks because Main Street is by far the better station

[@Nexis4Jersey]

Ashland rejected the Viaduct , tunnel and Bypass...Fredericksburg rejected the Freight bypass which used abandoned row and would have allowed faster speeds for Amtrak through town..

[@LucidStew]

Considerations for Ashland in the DC2RVA draft EIS were different as they were based on usage of diesel-electric trains.

[@daniellewis1789]

@@LucidStew Frankly Ashland is frustrating as heck, and it's a good thing I'm not in charge - there'd be no passenger train stopping in Ashland until the bypass was approved. Might even commission some custom wraps for passenger cars - Ashland, a red signal for VA rail. Ashland - a town of train haters. Ashland wants Downtown Hazmat.

[@LucidStew]

@@daniellewis1789 Yeah, unfortunately there's not even a good way AROUND. I went with the tunnel almost right way. This was also one of the most frustrating freeway rights of way I've dealt with in one of these videos. It's almost never where you need it to be.

[@andrewschwartz22]

Even if any of these options are built, I still find that DC Union Station is still a bottleneck. During my last trip from DC to Boston, my estimated delay more than doubled to 40 minutes as another delayed train was boarding at the same time. I got conflicting information from different employees whether or not to preboard with my bicycle; first I was told to get in line which was halfway across the building, then I was told to move to the front. From there it's all low platforms on the northbound side, first taking an elevator to the platform, walking all the way to the front, then working my way up the stairs to the narrow vestibule. Even if HSR becomes a reality in Virginia, I'm skeptical of better on-time performance for through-running routes and I'd rather see all routes start and end in an expanded Union Station. Until then, if I'm taking my bike again I'll take WMATA to and from New Carrollton instead.

[@LucidStew]

If you can run trains faster, you increase throughput, but that's a good point on the 2 through tracks at Washington. Definitely a limitation, especially if you're talking about hooking things up all the way down to Atlanta. They might need to go under those first street tunnels because they almost certainly wont be able to expand outward with all the do-not-touch buildings in the area. If that came out of ground near Ronald Reagan, that would be about a 5 1/2 mile tunnel, which isn't that bad. It would be expensive, but not to the point that it could never be built.