When Difficult Is Fun - Challenging vs. Punishing Games - Extra Credits

[@blindbeholder9713]

The job of the game designer is the same as the job of a DM. You're not the enemy of the player, you are there to test them, and to tell their story.

[@oggolbat7932]

I was thinking the same😁

[@littlewolf5136]

Well said

[@rigzmoviediaries654]

Wow, thats going into my gamedev list of things to do.

[@niedersacksen]

Perfectly said

[@figo3554]

Very well said

[@ewegenia]

To put it short: Make it so that when the player(s) die, it's *their* fault, not the game's.

[@ewegenia]

A great example would be Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate.

[@Gang3rs]

+Juju Bee Yeah that is a real good example with all the deaths i had in that game not once did i ever felt like it was the game.

[@IxodesPersulcatus]

It ain't that simple.

[@jmlkhan5153]

It is almost that simple. I would specify the original statement by saying "when a player dies, make it so that it SEEMS like it was their fault, not the game's. Even if it was the games." That qualifier is there because I am a fan of nethack, which is brutal and hard and unforgiving and totally fucking unfair at times, but it always SEEMS fair, to your limited knowledge.

[@sossololpipi9633]

Rimworld.

[@OyeBeto]

"If you demand that the player wait through minutes of content they already mastered just to get another chance at the thing they failed at, you have created a game which is punishing, not difficult." Like walking from a bonfire to a boss in Dark Souls? I love Dark Souls but it's definitely both difficult and punishing.

[@Firemalleoandjelly]

+OyeBeto7 Some fire emblem games fit into I have have to wade through 20 minutes of boring, heck at least in dark souls you have be smart to even get around normal enemies so you are thinking about things so it doesn't bore you to death.

[@stephenromero7298]

the goddamn walk of shame to fight gwyn

[@omnisemantic1]

You can get to 99% of the bosses in DS in a matter of seconds from the nearest bonfire....

[@dLzzzgaming]

True, I like that though. Plus eventually you learn the paths and mostly breeze through them most of the time.

[@ФедорВиноградов-ы7ц]

@Jacob Sorensen we can proclaim every frustrating element or mechanic to be teaching patience and modesty. DS1 does not even meet the most criteria from this video, lol. You cannot win fights without learning enemy movement patterns (mage powergame excluded), where is the choice of approach in that? Plenty of "punishing" moments like platforming challenges where you basically fight controls themselves instead of utilizing controls to solve your problem. Basically, Sekiro is much more accessible in all aspects, even by this video's standards.

[@sheepertheclassical6597]

"Your not trying to defeat your player, you want them to overcome the challenge." Something every SINGLE person who plays mario maker should live by.

[@Maplestarknight]

I tried pressing shift, control, w, and e, to try and see how that was difficult. Damn you.

[@EGPrime]

***** Referring more to the fact it closes chrome. It's by no means a difficult combo. Play SC2 at a good level to understand quick difficult key bindings.

[@TomPiddock]

+The_Ideaist Yeah I wouldn't do that if you're in Chrome - it'll close the window :P

[@EGPrime]

just press ctrl shift t

[@TomPiddock]

EGPrime Yeah that's fine, but it's less of a pain to just not close in the first place :D

[@TheReaverOfDarkness]

+The_Ideaist it's easy to press the key combo, but not as easy to press it with one hand. Still, I can do it.

[@Matticitt]

I hate difficulty spikes. I remember this moment in Mass Effect. I played through half the game without dying once. But then, after you save a particular character, you go into an elevator and on the top floor enemies attack you. Not only is it unfair, because there's no time, no covers, and multiple enemies constantly shooting so I ended up dying 30 times, but also the save point is just BEFORE you enter the elevator so every time you restart you have to wait like 2 minutes doing absolutely nothing while the elevator goes up. I recently wanted to replay the entire Mass Effect trilogy and I stopped playing the fucking game after that moment.

[@orenges]

Not only that, but according to logic, Shepard should be dead in canon if shot at with no cover and no time.

[@thanhvinhnguyento7069]

1 hour just waiting. Nice game design

[@DakkaScrappa]

same goes to aces of the luftwaffe the hardest one is ober muller

[@CoralCopperHead]

@@orenges Kinetic Barriers are a thing.

[@orangy57]

I tried Shift+CTRL+W+E... My browser closed.

[@Alpha-ji2im]

+Orangy57 CTRL+W makes the browser close

[@ForestFairy]

+Alpha Only closes a tab.

[@alduinfirstbornofakatosh1936]

Ugh, it did for me too... Coincidence?

[@ForestFairy]

It means you only had 1 tab open :\

[@Alpha-ji2im]

Mokona yea my bad

[@theunpopularcuber9554]

An excellent example of this is Hollow Knight. It is challenging, yet engaging. For the pantheons, it allows you to attempt the bosses without completely restarting the pantheons.

[@ChaosNe0]

If that's what punishing games are, my patience complemented my low skill several times in those. I feel like every game is either too easy or hardly managable. Did you often had that "Aha" experience in games? I only had it sometimes in a few.

[@ChaosNe0]

LeadFaun I mean that most games are either too easy or almost impossibly difficult to me and if a game is too difficult for me I have the patience to keep struggling for a while but it's very rare for me to get interested in the upcoming challenge. I mean: Are you interested in an unsatisfying experience that not even have an end?

[@ChaosNe0]

LeadFaun Oh okay. You know for example in puzzle-games when you have already worked/thought about possible solutions just to see then the rather simple solution? This can - in other forms, for example strategy - occur in other genres too.

[@leo9463065]

ChaosNe0 Being a fan of Zachtronics' games, I have that all the time.

[@sergiowinter5383]

Baldur's Gate, MGS, Fallout, Skyrim, they are all full of aha moments.

[@whythehecknot5038]

only in puzzle games lol

[@lonestarJimbo]

As a teacher this is how I strive to teach. Not being afraid to fail. And learning and reengaging after a failure with lessons learned.

[@renatoavilasilva7756]

"Or if you demand that the player wait through minutes of content that they alread mastered just to get a chance with thing they failed, you have created a game which is punishing, not difficult"...Well, what about the dark souls bonfire system? You have to repeat over and over the same parts of the game, specially when you're going to boss fights. You die in the bossfight and have to walk minutes to have another try, and sometimes even die in the proccess since the game put a lot of npc's com dangerous spots who respawns everytime.

[@lester6415]

NPCs don't respawn. You're thinking of normal enemies.

[@Yggdrasil42]

LEster Those are called NPCs too. Non Playable Characters. Every character controlled by the computer is an NPC.

[@igiornogiovannahaveadream649]

@@Yggdrasil42 except that they are not characters. A character is something that has relevance to the story/plot. So an npc is something non playable that has something to do with plot. So random mobs are not characters therefore not npcs, just mob enemies

[@iamerror6546]

plants vs zombies is a great example of difficulty balanced. you have a lot of plants in the harder levels, meaning theres so many possibilities

[@mep6302]

True

[@justinthompson6364]

To quote videogamedunkey: "Thank you, Dahk Souls."

[@AngellGaby]

They could had mentioned Monster Hunter.. You need to develop player skill not only in game items to defeat harder monsters.. A skilled player with no armor and just a weapon can defeat a monster that a unskilled player with best armor and weapon could not. It gives you a great feeling of improvement and its very rewarding ! :)

[@DaArmoredBear]

I agree, we need to see more Monster Hunter.

[@purplechip8020]

(I don't give a shit if this is 3 years old) YES Monster Hunter punishes you at first but once you learn you need to learn the telegraphs it becomes MUCH easier

[@CapitaineToinon]

See you in Anor Londo !

[@lorkhan610]

+CapitaineToinon Haha, I came to this video by chance after I failed a dozen times at the two archer guys in Anor Londo. When he said "I see you in Anor Londo!" at the end I was like "Ho... how... how can he know?!?!" ;D

[@Litrax_]

+lorkhan610 Ohhhh how I hate them ._.

[@rundyftw]

Wow, two egoraptor references? You're bold.

[@jrjuggalo159]

I don't know man. Dark Souls 1 and 2 is pretty fucking punishing and it sells amazingly.

[@magmaslug9305]

Didn't he just explain why it's hard, not punishing?

[@jrjuggalo159]

magmaslug Considering your first fight in the series is a boss with a crazy amount of health who can one hit you, even if you figure out the tricks, it's pretty punishing.

[@The_Hanged_Man_Arcana]

jrjuggalo159 The first boss takes 2-5 direct hits to kill you, you aren't supposed to fight it the first time you see it, and you are able to if you choose to make a stand. Dark Souls makes you think logically about killing your targets, not just smashing a button until you win. And the first boss is literally hit it, then get out of the way. The game doesn't send you back very far ever, you just lose your humanity and souls. The souls you can even re-collect.

[@scourge7373]

1) your first fight is a bunch of undead 2) the first encounter with the big guy isn't a fight, you're even told to go to the left door 3) you're obviously not dodging or blocking, or you failed to get your gear from the very beginning because he's pretty easy if you pay attention. The game does a great job through npc dialogue to warn you which path is a dangerous one, traps are never unavoidable if you look, and the game gives you enough weapons, merchants and blacksmiths to upgrade yourself properly

[@ThePineappleKnight932]

You sound like you have half a brain about this game, how do i beat the ghosts that appear at the area with all the undead and that blacksmith dude?

[@benmidas]

Just wanted to thank you for all of the advice you have posted on this website. We have put a lot of work into our game LaserChain and used a lot of your advice to help balance the economy, make the gameplay consistent, and not follow the pay-to-win paradigm that a lot of these social games follow. THANK YOU!

[@jacobthecork1606]

4:55 me:thats why I hate playing hard games and only enjoy games and levels that are easy.

[@goodolarchie]

Now I understand why two of the best games I've played in the last few years are Super Meat Boy and Dark Souls..

[@EvilDoresh]

Welcome to the club ^_^

[@EvilDoresh]

***** Praise the Meat :D !

[@EvilDoresh]

***** That's the special message for PETA :3

[@pr6800]

extra credits using an egoraptor pic. my life is complete.

[@JammoYT]

The quality of your content has no notable change since season 1. This is actually impressive

[@NimhLabs]

To be fair: Fire Emblem as a series traditionally has the "have units show up behind your lines" mechanic. Usually with stairs, opening in forests, castles, villages, oceans, etc. being possible locations for enemy units to come out and tear you a new one. So for new players, having monsters show up suddenly after the mission begun is a bit discerning, for those of us who have played a while are like, "FUCK YEAH! I WAS PREPARED FOR YOU BITCHES! I KNEW SOMETHING WOULD SHOW UP THERE! MY MOST KILLABLE REQUIRE RESOURCE WAS STANDING THERE IMMOVABLE! SHEER SIGN SOMETHING WOULD SPAWN THERE TO KILL IT FULL OF DEATH! HAHAHAHA! I BEAT YOUR STUFF!" As much as Fire Emblem: Awakening seems full of "unfair mechanics" the mechanics are rather predictable and pedestrian as far as the rest of the series goes. To the point where standard concepts such as "LOL Weapons Triangle", "KILLER OF ARCHERS Pegasus Knight OF DEATH FROM ABOVE" and "LOL Dodging Myrmadon" show up a lot sooner and easier in Awakening. There is a moment for playing Fire Emblem games when your Pegasus Knights can soak up a single arrow of damage (and live) that you start jumping around like a baboon making animal noises and screaming "FLORINA HAS BECOME LIKE UNTO SHIVA DESTROYER OF WORLDS!"... or when you realise your Lord Unit, with a bit of level grinding becomes your localised "walking tact nuke unit" (especially Lynn, Erika and Hector)... that Fire Emblem becomes one of those games you play because you have realised how easy it is to create campaign solutions that are the in game equivalent of yelling, "WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW, BIOTCH?!?!" I'm by no means an expert either... I have yet to complete Awakening on Lunatic/Classic mode yet. Most FE experts can do that in their sleep. I'm still trudging along trying to get any distance in Lunatic/Classic... and grinding in Hard/Classic, as honestly I don't really care about getting to the end of a game. I mean... let's be honest, finishing a game really isn't the fun part. It is figuring out playful self expression within the game. I really want to unlock Lunatic+ mode... and get it so my street pass has the little difficulty level of Lunatic+/Classic on it. So that everybody knows to avoid eye contact with me... so I can substitute conversations with people with me writing an MS Office replacement entirely in BASH (what? Like you'd NOT just assume I'd do that with a street pass that says Lunatic+/Classic). And yeah, I am one of those gamers that immediately try the game on one of the harder difficulties. My first attempts where with Lunatic/Classic mode... after many many issues playing the game, I turned the difficulty down to Hard/Classic. But yeah... the complain of "enemy re-enforcements showing up behind your lines" is more, "this happens in Fire Emblem. Your keikaku* needs to include these" (*Translator's Note: Keikaku is Japanese for plan)

[@NimhLabs]

***** That is FE *_Fangirl_*... meaning I also create ships for characters and write terrible horrible YAOI and YURI for the various characters. It mean with a bit of practice I could pwn people with it, while describing my various OTPs and reading entries of fan fiction I have made of various characters in the game. Sometimes the fan fiction doesn't include sex... as a fangirl I will choose to abstain from reading those entries instead opting for the more juicy ones.

[@NimhLabs]

***** Really? I find running into other fangirls really easy. It mostly requires finding the areas where KZbin crosses over into Tumblr. Also: make up tutorials... and stuff about drunken lesbians talking about sex... Jenna Marbles is gay, right? I mean... outside of my dreams, right? Only in my dreams? Well damned...

[@7ambris]

I have to disagree about one bit though. While enemies spontaneously showing up on parts of the map is traditional FE gameplay, it is not traditional that they get to move on that very same turn. In most FE games, the enemies show up at the end of the enemy turn. This provides the player with at least a chance to react. It's an extra challenge, but it's generally fair. Whereas on FE: Awakening's harder difficulties, these enemies spawn and move all at once. When you're first playing a level, it's utterly maddening and frustrating to have them take out 2 or 3 of your squishy characters before you get a chance to react. It is simply unfair and unfun, and forces the player to memorize the placement of enemies by round, which makes on feel less like a master tactician, and rather just a machine. That's my 2 cents.

[@NimhLabs]

7ambris Take out 2? or 3? Of my squishy characters? Why am I not doing a soft reset after the first... Or in the case of Miriel "drop kicking my 3DS across the room reset" when she is taken out... I mean--it is only a couple of the games that don't do that (we've only had a couple of the games released in North America)... and Awakening isn't even that evil with it. When Geneologies/Holy War (whatever) does it... the enemy reinforcements are more than the amount of units you could place on the map ignoring any fatigue issues you might have to worry about. Though... the Jugdral(sp?) is the "earliest era" and the fight is expected to be far more "epic" at that result... with it ultimately being the war that has peace being an option people vie for in the later eras that the games follows (such as Marth's Era, and Ylisse's Era). Even then... grabbing a few of the Japanese Only ones... and applying at translation patch (I HATE THE SNES/NES JAPANESE FONT SETS! I'D RATHER STAB MY EYEBALLS OUT THAN TRY TO NAVIGATE THOSE FONT SETS!)... and yeah. I think part of the reason those weren't released here is it was hard to figure out how to make the game less difficult and yet not lose anything major. I imagine the American Release of Holy War would reduce the enemy armies from twenty-five down to like... two. Oh... and an American version of Tracia 776 with the difficulty slide down... would... great... now I have my nightmares set up for how much that whole game would be completely removed the whole point about. Fifth paragraph as four paragraph... oh right... Tracia 776 was traditionally what Fire Emblem fans called "Lunatic+/Classic Mode"... on its normal difficulty level.

[@NimhLabs]

***** I think there is a reason that Awakening took so much from FE4 in how it worked and functioned. Having had the Ellibe and Tellius series allow us to have a variation of the Akaneia series get... well... one remake actually showing up here. Oh... right and the single Grado game. Which could allow the Merkan Audience be introduced to some stuff already well known/loved by the Japanese series. Isn't there suppose to be two/three games to every location on a system? Wait... not... the Awakening DLC I suppose could be its Thracia 776... but... yeah. But yeah... it would be nice to see more of the series make its way over here... or at least have Japan make enough remakes that I wouldn't have to put up with the old Japanese font sets. Seriously... so much hate for those. That is why only the NEETs played video games for so long.

[@nicolinrucker5181]

On Warframe I use that move all the time, for a LONG time it was used for speeding up, was called coptering. Hardest part of using it for damage is the varying swing times, a Bo does not spin like an Amphis, a Serro is not an Orthos, and a Galantine is not a Gram... And there is like 13 different types of melee

[@Essutos]

"Punishing game will never succeed" *laughts in geometry dash that does everything you said devs shouldn't do*

[@offandsphere6788]

*travel levels intensify*

[@alexbaker1569]

No I think geometry dash is in the same lane as super meat boy, where the quick speed offsets the constant retryies

[@offandsphere6788]

@@alexbaker1569 not all the meat boy levels are over a minute long tho

[@cudgeonkurosaki8489]

The Mimic chest in Dark Souls is somewhat punishing, as there is no noticeable indicator that it will eat you. Good thing that you are close to a bonfire and it teaches you to slay every chest in sight with a different looking chain. Or just strike every chest in general.

[@bradenkowalski8192]

Actully you can see its chain slightly different, and if you hit it, it's health bar shows up.

[@bradenkowalski8192]

+Braden Kowalski although your first mimic is a bug suprise

[@supremeleadersnoke2246]

If you look really closely you can see them breathing

[@VeritableSmorgasbord]

"Noises of failure" make for a more frustrating experience, I think. Fail a challenge in Jak 2 and there would be this horrible "death toll" that would sound, and the screen would go red and say "Mission Failed", and they'd give you the retry/quit options. I broke a nearby clothes hanger. I busted a tissue box wide open, swear to Jesus. Only time I ever fully slammed a controller, too. Something was rattling around in there after, but it still worked. Launching me, the player, right back in to try again would've been nice. Also, in Spyro 2 there was a tricky challenge where you had to ride in a mine cart, or something, around an elevated track. But every time you failed, which for me was about 25 times in a row, you had to rewatch a 15 second cut scene/tutorial with a mouthy, self-important penguin. There was no skip. I wanted to strangle someone. Anyone.

[@joshuaridgway4]

Trouble with the trolley, eh?

[@robindebondt8793]

The trolley part is my favorite :D The song played during the minigame is a direct reference to spyro 1

[@aidanaronoff565]

I'm a big fan of the fire emblem series, particularly awakening, so i feel the need to defend it. What you refer to is ambush spawning, and is a major part of the hard and lunatic mode difficulties. When choosing hard or lunatic, the game does say that ambush spawning will occur. In most ambush spawn situations, enemies appear on forts, but sometimes they'll appear at an end of the map, but on hard or lunatic difficulty they will always move as soon as they spawn no matter what chapter you're in, making it consistent and, as you put it, following its own rules. This forces the player to be prepared for ambush spawns at any moment and not leave a weak character undefended creating more depth to the strategy. Essentially, the game conditions you to be aware of the possibility of being ambushed at any moment and to work around that. Furthermore, the addition of casual mode, which removes perma-death from the equation, gives a more forgiving learning curve so that beginners can work their way into the series. Lunatic mode, from my perspective, was made for the hardcore fans who enjoyed the outrageous difficulty and consequential proof of tactical prowess, that came with Hector Hard mode in Fire emblem 7, or Fire emblem Thracia 776's entire existence. You brought up the example of failing a level and thinking something like "what if i wall jumped?". I believe that ambush spawns in hard mode do the same thing, it makes you think, "ok, better leave Frederick with Lissa in case of ambush" and it rewards you for thinking that way so that you can identify plausible places for enemy reinforcements to appear in later chapters and either block them to make the chapter easier, or exploit them for EXP. Plus, the map skirmishes make it so that if you play it right, you'll never be behind the enemy in stats.

[@game_mations3807]

Hollow knight, and Just shapes and beats is another challenging game because you don’t really die in the game ( except steel soul mode in Hollow knight and that one cutscene in Just shapes and beats ).

[@a_MhetOtw.4334]

I wonder why I broke my pro controller temporarily * cough cough * inner agent 3 fight *cough cough *

[@ShyBoy6ty9]

A game I always think of when this topic comes up (never played Demon's/Dark Souls/Bloodborne/etc.) is Outland. It was pretty difficult throughout the majority of the game, at least without the powerups because I was an impatient gamer back then, but it had so many checkpoints that you could just dive back into the game, and try again.

[@RichiRich1993]

All he says about what makes games punishing is right - especially the part with the delay, nothing is more frustrating than having to spend 10+ minutes to get to the point again. Yet there is one aspect as important: The consequences of failing/losing. When dying makes you lose items or stuff even to a point where you can't retrieve them in the game anymore, it's super frustrating. When you don't have such severe repercussions and even are able to jump right back in and try again, then it's where even a hard difficulty can be fun . That made me retry a level of Mario 64: Star Road for 2h without being angry, as i could just jump back in and ready to be better. On the other side i raged after 2 tries on Rom the Vacuous SPider due to the ammount of ressources the battles had wasted...

[@boredpower7085]

Just watched a ten minute ad instead of skipping it. Hope that can afford the EC Team a whole pack of smarties.

[@ThePCguy17]

first thought on see the title: flappy bird.

[@KDNG105]

Isn't it very consistent ?

[@ThePCguy17]

Wut?

[@toast4177]

Git gud

[@MyAccount217]

Flappy Bird is very consistent and not punishing at all, it's just difficult. Which is why it was so successful.

[@soylentgreenb]

I wanna be the guy.

[@davidtownsend6092]

EverQuest to world of warcraft hit my soul. I started eq and wow both the day they dropped. And eq well into Panda expac in wow even still. It's so painfully true and a perfect metaphors for the change

[@11annguyen]

i just did the sift+ctrl+w+e and it closed my browser

[@sebastianwesterlund8777]

11annguyen Only Ctrl and w is enough for that

[@luconis158]

A good difficult game? SpeedRunners.

[@mindcontrolization]

+Luconis XCOM

[@Malkuth-Gaming]

+Joey Trom X-Com ;) The Firaxis XCOM is just bad

[@karlhungusjr1]

+Malkuth's Gaming good troll

[@fletch5587]

I've been browsing this channel for a few weeks, and I think I love it! You have a new subscriber!

[@carsonscott1107]

I feel like this principle is applied well in Call of Duty: Black Ops Zombies. The reason I keep playing over and over and over again is because I feel like I could have done better had I (gotten a better weapon from the Mystery box, was paying more attention, had better allies, better internet connection, whatever), and knowing that every wave of zombies is, at the very least, passable makes things all the more motivating. When you add multiple sidequests and storylines (ala BO2) it makes the challenge more entertaining in that you are working to achieve something rather than simply shooting hordes of zombies, mindlessly running around in a circle. Plus, even after dozens or hundreds of time playing a level, the memorization factor didn't increase my odds of surviving to a boringly high level- yes, there are specific spots where zombies spawn and locations of perk machines (for the most part: Nuketown, Die Rise) and buildables, it mostly retained its difficulty. TLDR: Call of Duty: Black Ops Zombies is a great example of all the principles discussed in this episode. Thanks guys for putting it together.

[@MAKRA567]

Fire emblem: Awakening on hard/classic having enemies move on the first turn they appear is literally the only reason I stopped playing it. I love the game, but I've never rage quit a game so abruptly and totally as when an enemy appeared on the final turn, moved 8 squares, attacked from range, and 1 shot my healer with exact damage. I immediately quit and played an older fire emblem instead out of frustration. Excellent, relevant example!

[@oreohunter7798]

Shovel knight... FUCKING SHOVEL KNIGHT!

[@oreohunter7798]

Pluto Bone You are taking game steroids, Shovel knight is more difficult than ninja gaiden and megaman, which they took inspiration from!

[@oreohunter7798]

Pluto Bone it's nearly impossible to beat the game without at least 50 deaths

[@oreohunter7798]

+Pluto Bone you act like you've beaten the entire game in a breeze, many moments require extremely precise platforming. don't even get me started on plague of shadows with that God damn potion jump.

[@oreohunter7798]

Pluto Bone I have to admit, most of my rage is because of me wanting to get as much money as possible since you keep all of it at once, and you can lose it all faster than Sonic team releases their next mistake.

[@BlackINKim]

+Lunar Apocalypse Seriously? Shovel Knight harder than Ninja Gaiden and Megaman? I mean, okay, Megaman 2 isn't by any mean especially hard, but Shovel Knight harder than Megaman 3? All and all, SK is fairly easy in the first run, the only level where I died more than once was the Tower of Fate, but aside for that, I felt that having more than one chalice, that can be used to refill all of my health and mana whenever I wanted was slightly too generous on the developpers part, since there were some moment where I could just get hit by an enemy because I was too lazy to do the segment properly, knowing that it did not matter since I still had plenty of health to spare. Even NG+ is fairly doable, since you still start the game with all of the upgrades that the game did not accounted for, so, again, making the only really challenging part the Tower of Fate. Now, where it get really fun is when you use the cheatcode to start NG+ mode without any upgrades carried over from a previous save, now, that, to some degree, approached some old NES games's difficulty. Oh, and Plague Knight's campain becomes a joke once you get your hand on the Vat.

[@gragragrasputin386]

For the warframe example you can also press v instead of the control key, which you can hit with your thumb.

[@CoralCopperHead]

Hitting crouch with my thumb would be the best way to accidentally jump instead. Thankfully, I have relatively stubby fingers and can just curl my index to hit 'c'

[@GabrielPiveta]

Minecraft is punishing when a creeper explode in back of you

[@solemnwaltz]

I've always called it "cheap hard" vs "challenging hard".

[@Angel_8266]

To me the key to a hard but enjoyable game is it's fair for everyone. You and the enemies, if you can kill them in 1 hit then they should be able to do the same while showing that the enemy is going to attack but you have the same limits

[@ayelosyundox2264]

3 words: Getting Over It. Punishing or just hard? Feel free to start a flame war.

[@fuzzyd1436]

Qwrp games are just ugh

[@hoodiesticks]

Regarding Dark Souls following it's own rules, what about the scripted death when you first encounter Seath?

[@infuriatedsloth3335]

How bout the hunters in Bloodborne(I know it's not technically a DS game)

[@joshrow584]

+Obese_Panther it is

[@JakSoulbright]

It's a form of progression, you die but are sent to a new area, it may be a death but it has purpose. Humanity and souls are farmable too, so dying isn't all too bad.

[@hoodiesticks]

***** Yes, but it's still an instance of Dark Souls breaking its own rules. You don't respawn at the bonfire you last rested at.

[@JakSoulbright]

〈-thatguyoverthere Even so, sometimes you need to break the rules to create an engaging experience. It doesn't have to always be negative .I know when I died to Seath I was so absolutely hyped for revenge that I may have been the most engaged I'd ever been while playing DkS.

[@monkiemonA]

Not every NPC or boss in dark souls was kill-able the most obvious one being your first encounter with seath the scaleless, but there's also the bird in firelink shrine, frampt/kaathe and the everlasting dragon. Some of these have in-game reasons to be invincible but that giant bird has no reason to be unkillable.

[@CoralCopperHead]

Unless you ascribe to the belief that it's Velka.

[@Yackass]

PRESS R TO RESTART

[@FatrickAteman]

Mr Boourns R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R This is Hotline Miami in a nutshell.

[@123fendas]

Mr Boourns PRESS F5 TO RESTART

[@MABfan11]

+Yackass GAME OVER press R to try again

[@maarten9272]

AC black flag was really good at being a challenge (much stronger enemy ships could be taken out using tactics), but there was a chase section in one of the games missions which I was incapible of finishing. The guy you followed was almost as fast as you, and you only had 30 or so seconds to catch up to him. I have yet to finish that mission (after ~50 attempts).

[@aihsonavais769]

Even in 2019 that warframe joke still haunts people

[@KyleECHOLS]

Dark Souls is punishing 1. Start the game with zero info and end the game with almost none. Average players will require wiki to learn anything. 2. Every enemy pretty much kills you when you first encounter it, then you're sent back to restart the whole area. Die again? Punished again. All enemies respawn as well, so you better hope you can beat that enemy which killed you or repeat again. 3. Bosses are formulaic and require precise memorization to beat. You simply cannot go into the boss fights and win from skill, you MUST memorize. Some great players can, but as Extra Credits said, the developer should empower the player to be able to win on the first try or at least learn then win shortly thereafter. Souls bosses like Nameless King and Pontiff have so many movesets that dying 10+ times is not just common but expected. Every boss attempt that fails requires you to slog through the entire area. You can't even enter the boss fight with full health because enemies can even kill you on the way there! 5. The above punishment encourages running past enemies because all you want is to fight the boss again. Your punishment is to speedrun. What you want doesn't matter. Bad design! 6. Enemies often lie in wait in key moments. For example, you see an enemy walking but his back is turned. You carefully sneak up but then 3 enemies fall on your head and stun gank you. So many times I died to those dogs in Irithyll that were at the top of the staircase where you could not see. Memory saves your life the second try, not skill. 7. Enemy difficulty is artificial- they have ultra health and deal awful amounts of damage. If bosses were truly hard, then they would still be tough even if you and the boss did similar damage with similar health. No, Souls games stack odds against you. Dancer, for example- you can perfectly dodge every attack except the tail end of one spinning combo... you die. This is artificial. It's their bigger numbers vs your lesser numbers=difficult. Apparently, in the Souls fanbase this difficulty is acceptable and rewarding. 8. Game and the community encourage exploits. For example, in Bloodborne within the 20 minutes you're forced to fight two werewolves blocking your path- Fextralife wiki states to lure them to a house where they get stuck in a door so you can just whale on them. Another example from wiki, Dark Souls 3 prior to the Road of Sacrifices an ice knight which few could beat, you will read to lure it to an elevator shaft where it will stupidly fall to its death. BAD. DESIGN. When this is considered good advice the game is seriously messed up. I could go on for another block paragraph but you get it. 128 hours of Dark Souls 3 and 110 hours of Bloodborne, I've learned I love it all for what it does right and overcome its glaring faults. This, plus memorization was required to fully enjoy the series. This should not be so.

[@joeparris7639]

Kyle William I agree with your post, and people wonder why I think Demon Souls is the best souls game. Every boss could was difficult, but could be defeated in drastically different ways. Same with the levels, they could be traversed in drastically different approaches. Good game design, but not without its flaws I admit.

[@Ranzord95]

Sooo stealth games have always been one of my favourite things. Like, Sly Racoon, Dishonored, Deus Ex, Styx, that stuff. And I think the reason why I like them ls because they punish you very easily, yet the punishment is small. Got spotted and the mission is failed, or you lose the undetected achievement? It's fine. Get killed, restart, and give it another shot knowing what not to do and look for an alternative. You can go flaunting around triggering alarms and finish in one try, but if you really want to, you can happily pass the level undetected and feel like a ninja. It's satisfying.

[@Hilipinapixili]

Actually, the reason why I don't like stealth games is because, for me, having to repeat a mission that tends to focus on slow and methodical gameplay is actually quite punishing when compared to other genres.

[@onex4664]

i disagree, darkest dungeon is the definition of punishing game, thats glorious if you got enough willpower

[@ArturoLopez-ly2pn]

You can master the mechanics, devise the perfect strategy, but the life of your Vestal is in the hands of RNGsus who said: "hmm, three crits in a row + bleed"

[@CavalloDiSpade]

One thing I have to say is that you can play around the reinforcements in fire emblem. To me the most fun aspects of those games is playing expecting the possibility that an attack can come from any direction at any moment.

[@yaumelepire6310]

CK2, HOIIV, EUIV, VIC2 and Stellaris are so good at this. Heck! Paradox games in general!

[@Daemeon93]

I feel like an example of a punishing game that defeats you without giving you that "ahah!" moment of learning what you did wrong would really be any card game like Magic the Gathering or Hearthstone. The challenge of trying to improve yourself and your deck in order to defeat the opponent feels worthless and punishing considering that the luck of the draw determines the outcome of who wins most of the time. Many times where you are defeated in card games are usually when you didn't draw that one card that could have destroyed the monster that is destroying you, or the opponent just so happened to draw that one card that destroys your advantage that would've otherwise made you win next turn. You can't learn from that, really, because the only reason he was able to use it was because they were lucky enough to draw it in time to use it properly.

[@EdmundAlynJones]

Grand Kingdom. Random spikes of difficult equal me no like. Sin And Punishment for Wii. Though punishment is in the title it makes want to come back for more. Great video.

[@skibur848]

One word. Cuphead

[@fringeelements]

There's a certain segment of players who like "punishing" games in that they're not designed to be winnable, but realistic. Lots of mods are like this. Fallout 4's FROST mod is like this. You're traveling around the world, and someone can just one-shot you out of nowhere. You don't know if you're "in combat". Maybe there's a bunch of soldiers guarding something. You can try to kill them, they'll try to kill you, you can do it however you want. Maybe there'll be something worthwhile there, maybe not. There's no "difficulty curve", there's no level scaling, your character doesn't do more damage from guns as he "levels up". You can get more fit - able to run faster, run longer, carry more. Your aim can get better (less random crosshair drift). But otherwise, most of the "leveling" is going on inside your own brain. What happens is YOU, the player, get wiser. Or get tired and impatient and die. And I think there's a market for this kind of game. Balance? Nah man there's just guns and the enemy is trying to kill you. One shot to the head with any firearm and you're dead. Enemies don't get more difficult with time. You go to a place, and the guys there are the guys there. And they shoot you with the intent to kill, ideally without you even noticing. He's not trying to "give you an experience of combat". Packs of dogs trying to kill you will just run up behind you - maybe you'll hear the pitter-patter of their feet before they tear into you. Maybe not. If not, you're dead. You can say it's "punishing", but it's not bullshit. Dogs don't bark at animals they think of as prey - why should videogame dogs? A guy who wants to kill you isn't going to call out at you, he's just going to shoot. He's not going to charge at you, he's going to shoot from cover, and he will stay in cover until you're dead, he's dead, or you're gone. For him, it's life or death. He may even put his gun around the corner and shoot blind. Laying a mine or some other trap is an obvious way to try to kill someone while minizing risk - why wouldn't other people in the world do the same thing? And no, they're not going to make the mines obvious, they're going to conceal them. And the mines don't beep, giving you a chance to escape. They explode and you die. In an open-world game, this kind of "punishing" world doesn't feel like "bullshit" in the way a punishing platformer is. I personally find it far more "immersive" than the base fallout 4 game. And there's something to be said for this kind of game design. And it feels awesome when you win, because you know nothing in the game is designed for you to "win". Stuff's just there. The camps are designed, with limited resources, to kill any attacker to the degree you would expect a band of survivors with no military training to do so. The game designer is agnostic as to whether it's even possible to clear out any particular area. The only salient fact is that the enemies don't have unlimited resources.

[@eight216]

On the other hand..... Dark souls (and dark souls 2) don't entirely follow their rules with weapon range. THIS IS WHY PEOPLE HATE PHANTOM RANGE. Because when it happens it entirely shits on the rules of the game, there's no consistency and i for one can admit to feeling completely shut down when i come up against someone abusing (yes, you fucknutt it's an exploit) phantom range because you can't tell where exactly it's going to hit you, it would be one thing if it was a mechanic built into some weapons but it's not, it happens at random times on a few different types of weapons with random effectiveness. Another problem i have with dark souls 2 specifically is agility. It's a stat that makes your roll do what it already otherwise should have been doing to begin with, and without it the game can feel cheap because you start to get hit halfway through a roll or at times where you know it feels wrong for a boss to hit you. Add to that the fact that there really don't seem to be any clear breakpoints, at about 110 things feel normal and less than that is varrying degrees of awkwardness. IMO stats shouldn't effect game mechanics like rolling or parrying. Stats are intended to tune things like HP armor resistances damage calculations. The shit that happens behind the scenes, but when you start playing with reactionary movement controls in this kind of game it's never good. You need your roll or parry to have consistency, otherwise how are you suppose to learn how and when to dodge or parry.

[@desmondbrown5508]

eight216 Very true. I'd also add another problem that's seems to be contingent in every souls game (and bloodborne too) is enemies hitting through walls. It's hard to tell which one's will or won't because they don't all do it. Also because of range differences you can't tell how much of a wall they can hit through but enemies still do it without bouncing. And the player on the other hand really can't. They instead bounce back and are punished for it by being left open for a second or 2.

[@eight216]

Desmond Brown It's not even that it happens, it's the lack of consistency... i'd be totally cool if (for instance) there was a class of projectile that passed through walls, but they need to get rid of the stuff that only happens sometimes due to poor coding.

[@feliperodrigues5437]

Phantom range is not an example of the game breaking its own rules, it's just lag.

[@bigtemarifan]

“Punishing games will never succeed” >me getting blown up by a t3 cruiser in my t1 battleship in EVE The exception since 2002

[@RamblingRecruiter]

The acoustic guitar version of Castlevania's theme song was a nice touch

[@vinx.9099]

warframe now has an even more interesting one hold shift+w then ctrl and then tab shift (you get a boost in your slide and you keep that boosted speed when rolling) which is probably even harder (if not impossible) to pull of (i wouldn't know, got roll mapped to another button as well).

[@DoomRater]

So I just realized that Undertale changes its rules quite a lot but it's not a game I would describe as difficult. I also wouldn't call it unfair. The rule changes are always telegraphed at some point and you're never forced to lose because the rules suddenly changed. The rules that don't change are the ones you're presented with in the single screen instruction. When HP is 0, you lose. That's pretty much it.

[@Firemalleoandjelly]

+DoomRater Yeah it is hard but it gives you time to adjust and the save point is right there, and the game does even insult you when you die it literally is saying come on champ give it another go.

[@timothyfreudenrich6110]

Really, the sliding spin dash is more W+Shift+Ctrl+E, but the point still stands. At least they took out Coptering.

[@LaroonDynasty]

Wow, you really gotta hit those bells to see videos huh. I watched three extra credits videos and never got one in my feed.

[@ericlanglois9194]

X-Com: UFO Defense... the first time I ever prayed to RNGesus to save my soldiers! X-Com: Enemy Unknown... king of "WTF, where the hell did they come from?!" >.> I consider that to be my scale of Challenge vs Punishing lol

[@archangelmichaelhawking]

furi is a great new example of this, very difficult but not punishing

[@themiller3940]

The the southpark Phone destroyer game has a huge difficulty spike with the Ninjew boss battle, I left after that because of the sudden spike in shit

[@cyffrowy2882]

I love how fighting with 10 enemies at once is called fair and dying to them is a „punishment for my nistakes”. I like hard games but I don’t consider them to be fair.

[@mep6302]

Some difficult games ARE FAIR

[@gctypo2838]

I don't mind ads. I don't mind buffers. But when ads buffer, I suffer.

[@SirScarfalot]

Hm. I would like to offer a counterexample to 'punishing games don't sell': Undertale. [spoiler alert] Sans. The thing is, while the game adds new rules consistently, and sometimes plays somewhat loose with the rules it presents you with, it doesn't COMPLETELY break your assumptions about when you're safe, or what you can do and when you can do it, until you go through all the trouble to unlock the most difficult possible fight in the game. At that point, it goes to full punishment mode; destroying all your safety nets and robbing you of agency, forcing you to memorize a strict sequence of buttons until you can consistently nail it, but it's still a good experience, because as mentioned in the video about mechanics based difficulty, players absolutely chose to go there. And that's what makes all the difference.

[@SturFriedBrains]

I've been playing Europa Universalis 4 & it's immensely complex, and the major, most common things you can fuck up on as a player they always tell you how to fix, but my 2 big sticking points are 1. RNJesus' ability to make or break an entire war, which can mean the game, if it's well placed enough, and 2. it's inability to tell you what's up when you're getting rekt. as I said it's really fucking complex, it physically hurts my brain to play for extended periods because there's so much to keep track of, but I be damned if they couldn't make it just a little easier by saying "hey, bro, you've been neglecting your war tech, the guys around you are 1 or 2 iterations ahead of you, they could even be super subtle about it. They just never tip you off unless it's something that had a specific chapter in the tutorial.

[@ahmadraihan327]

not only in game, teacher who makes lessons and quizess at school should've seen this video too I guess

[@aaronbasile3677]

Another example of a punishing game, the last level of Gears of War.

[@satanbrony9235]

Thank you very much for making this. I was very curious about what makes games hard in a fun way.

[@roguelove807]

I've been playing Oxygen Not Included too much recently, and I feel like it's a perfect example of a challenging game. The rules are set in stone (or this case, Neutronium). I've played over 500 hours according to steam, and I still haven't beaten it! I've failed sooooo many times yet every time I think "Ok so this time I have to do ___ better" and am excited to start again! I've never felt like the game has screwed me over, which is what I consider Punishing games to do.

[@vaelophisnyx9873]

....six years old but Risk of Rain 2's player base needs to see this.

[@daemondan666]

Yeah I had to rebind warframe's melee to one of my mouse buttons to consistently do the ninja sliding slashythings

[@smol5601]

Awakening made me miss the reset button. If there were one on their portable consoles.

[@Gleamiarts]

A certain Zelda fanmade game comes to mind when I watch this...

[@kebabremoveth5257]

Terraria; expert mode was super punishing but it was SO FUN.

[@haich_9085]

I think smash TV is a great example of difficult not punishing. you can be good, go on a streak and pick up tonnes of power ups, or you can suck and die over over again.

[@02844564]

And this is why I Avoided Fire Emblem till I learned about Fates/IF and Awakening. Casual and Phoenix Mode got me invested to get them.

[@Cretaal]

Lmao I loved that warframe reference. It's weird when you can do it without even thinking to parkour around.

[@alexgoldsmith8598]

I found the sliding spinning slash pretty easy to do consistently

[@abluepenguin7039]

can we talk about how Nintendo likes to put insane levels at the end of some of there games sometimes?

[@Little3Pigs]

Intersting video. I agree with what you said about fire emblem, hard battles are enjoyable but after the 5th time you restart the Battle you need to take a break. Which makes me think that fire emblem games should have more options un what players can do outside the Battle so they can enjoy some breaks from long battles while still engaging with the caracthers and story.

[@sanketvaria9734]

you minded me of bloodborne. its sooooo difficult for me it gives me headache but i want to play it.

[@bunnyjpng]

The intro sounds like a sitcom

[@Pumpkin42O]

you'd think the sliding spin slash would be easier on consoles but no I never have enough fingers

[@santiagogs15]

i agree with most of these except with side/ optionalbosses, you know since side bosses are exactly that, optional you can ramp up their difficult curve, as a small example a player playing an rpg and doing the campaign mode which has been relatevely challenging but doable to him, when he decides to go out of his way for a side quest because an Npc pointed out at a reward that might catch his eye, which is not necessary to ebat the game at all but for the player it'd be cool to have anyways, the Npcs or the game itself also warn the player that the side boss he's about to face is a master of fire magic, there are a lot of signs that scream "Bring fire resistance to this fight" all over the area, basically if he goes to the boss withouf fire resistance he'll have a very difficult fight compared to what has been challenging him up to that point in the game, for me this is completely okay because that fight is optional anyways, the witcher 3 and the monster hunter series, are actually great with this kind of design, the Elder scrolls also uses this sometimes, in fact Dragons in skyrim are a cakewalk compared to vampire lords, Lichs and revenants at the end of certain quest chains. most old rpgs with side quests also use this formula, when you're playing an old school rpg you know that if you gor for optional fights you're in for really tough ones, of course this shouldn't be abused bu i think ramping the difficulty with some of the optional bosses is something completely acceptable.

[@onideadhead]

Hotline miami 1 an 2 (my favorite games of all time) are a great example

[@LoraLoibu]

an AWESOME example of a difficult, but not punishing game is the popular GEOMETRY DASH that is, if you don't count user levels (cuz theres some that are just UNFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIR)

[@nocx4592]

2:00 KONGREGATE! Yay, they said it.

[@MagyarGaben]

"Punishing games will never succeed" Darkest Dungeon: "Hold my crimson curse"

[@rompevuevitos222]

Darkest Dungeon makes up for it with expendable characters, recruiting is free and the only thing you loose is the time expent training them, there's no real loss because the game is built around loosing characters Even then, i never saw the fun in it, having a dice decide what happens is pretty dumb imo

[@ScorchedIce]

I really don't understand the complexity of the Shift + Ctrl + W + E. I'll put aside my experience with Warframe, and just see it as it is: Combining three easy to learn actions; running forward, sliding and melee attack, to get a more advanced outcome, the spin attack. In a way, it's kinda smart for a game to have advanced maneuvers that require the player to experiment with their controls, and what they can and can't do. Like what if i crouch while running, or, what if i try to crouch and jump? etc.

[@africancouscous]

I find botw making a good “harder mode”

[@nstrisower]

"You have failed as a designer" should be a meme.