F1 engine MGN W12 with rotary valves. F1 Motor mit Drehschieberinlass

[@whalesong999]

Model airplanes have been using rotary valves in small two strokes for many decades and 50cc motorcycles have had them since the late '60s. MZ began them in cycles in the early '60s for competition. Getting them to work in four cycles is a bigger challenge because the valve has to seal direct combustion pressure and heat.

[@gmcevoy]

I was actually wondering how compression can be maintained, in the long run. It is quite like the rotary engine's problem of keeping a tight seal in between the rotating piston and the various chambers...

[@barrychapman9031]

I remember reading about one developed for an Australian car the Holden around 1959 to race it in a sedan series we had down here at the time .Sadly the car wasn't the rocket that everyone associated with it hoped for & apparently the main reason was the sealing during the combustion stroke .It only lasted the 1 year &then faded into oblivion .

[@chocolatte6157]

This is so cool. I did not know anyone was doing this and I have been talking with friends of mine about a concept like this for a couple of years. I always figured heat build up and material science may be obstacles that could not be overcome. Basically, the contact surfaces of the spinning valve and head would weld themselves together. I guess not. Cooool!!

[@fredrickseiler4492]

Awesome. I'm obviously not the first, but I thought of rotary valves a few years before this video was made. Glad someone made it work.

[@docrw]

The British worked with rotary valves for a long time but couldn't not get the broad torque band they wanted, but not sure why. I had a two stroke with a rotary valve and it was awesome. Rotary valves are where it's at once they can figure it out.

[@MrBoolyman]

Fantastic technology. I love 'outside the box' engineering. Keep up the good work

[@haugstule]

you need to understand something, he was not disrespecting the engine, it is a work of art. he was implementing that KZbin is for Videos and pictures are for Flickr. and you really shouldn't be annoyed at the fellow, i can understand him, i would very much like to hear the sound myself...

[@AmalgmousProxy]

I've seen this around, I wonder if they have achieved a durable rotary valve seal yet? This would have merit in many applications.

[@noelmintern6133]

Interesting idea,..and at the same time others arrive with the same idea.I have a patent for the same concept;..the difference being I use two camshafts minus the lobes. The cam' bearings protrude part-way into a hemisherical combustion chamber and one cam' has intake ports in the cam' bearings and the other cam' is the exhaust unit. The cams are geared to each other to rotate in opposite directions and the connecting shafts are slightly off set from true center to do double duty as balance shafts.I had some one run a computer programm and it came back as workable.For sealing, the oil on the bearing surface acts as a sealant under compression and like oil on the cylinder wall is burnt off and passed out with the exhaust gasses.How ever this concept seems to work well enough and maybe it will make its way into passenger cars...

[@firstnamelastname7143]

Rotary valve gas engines date back to 1886 England, and first US Patent 1907.

[@Ambrosemcc]

A working rotary valve engine was developed by mercedes-ilmor and using the bishop rotary valve which would have been used to race in 2006 if it wasn't for renault coming to some sort of agreement with the fia to change the regulations to ban rotary valves even though the engine regulations weren't supposed to be changed until 2008.

[@adoreslaurel]

I remember reading about this type of design in an OZ motor mag about 50 years ago,I think it had some type of hydraulic pressure system to keep the rotary valve hard down over the combustion chamber,very quiet exhaust note and I think an OZ invention in South Australia.probably sealing problems killed it,I think it may have featured [not sure] in a motor boat.

[@willythewave]

Mine too, was thinking of this over 20 years ago.

[@georgeutterpower]

I was researching a valve train like this somewhere around 1968. I was in a large library and literally stumbled across an article about Norton and their Road Racer of an earilier day.. the Manx 500cc road racer. The article said that Norton was able to make the same performance with this rotorary valve design, but could not better the performance of their conventional valve train, in the Manx... so they discontinued their efforts. Some very new ideas have a lot of history..

[@DoriFord]

Imho, it's better to use a 2 rotary valves than 1. The idea is that the power is lost, because fuel mixture stops when the cross-section grows too big. The smaller the port, the more length/wave tuning you get. Plus, you can use smaller combustion chamber and multiple sparks in the middle.

[@gtbarnes11]

I remember this, there was a documentary of his work on this. Was to power an F1 car soon after. Rotary valve had some (sealing?)issues. So much time and hard work on this for few to know about.

[@whalesong999]

That's where running on alcohol is workable for the four stroke. It burns cooler than gasoline. The method for the 4 cycle you describe was done on two brands of German made model engines in the '80s, one with a vertical disk, the other with a horizontal, hollow shaft, ports direct into combustion chambers. With oil-in-fuel alcohol mix, there was little trouble with them. It gets troublesome with straight gas and no lubricant mix.

[@darklol701]

Didn't know about this valve system. Great.

[@mickkennedy1344]

I just invented a new kind of sandwich, using three kinds of bread -- but I haven't patented it yet.

[@freddyrosenberg9288]

I designed one of these but it actually allows for 4 strokes AND variable valve timing.

[@jamestojo2756]

Would you mind explaining to me how it works?

[@danielhoffman2299]

What you say is indeed true...in a 2 stroke configuration certainly this is the case.. In model airplane construction the same is true...The configuration I was describing, though intended for use in model a model airplane was a four stroke configuration.. The intake was through the head and rotory valve directly into the combustion chamber.. The exhast was through the another rorory valve and out ot atmosphere..No transfer ports or piston porting.

[@chintapallirakesh]

There is a groove cut inside the disc for letting the left over exhaust going out. But i find it to be opened or it is simply creating extra volume in the cylinder. Is it not effecting the engine performance...? Moreover i find this groove opening is opened to outside of the cylinder at an instance in compression stroke. Is it not a loss of compression...?

[@edwinde2323]

this system exist from before 1977 I seen it in books for a start there was also a system with sleeves what was American design and patent but used in the Belgium Minerva cars build in Antwerp

[@Modellmotor]

edwin de

[@milojanis4901]

Is there an audio track, or is something wrong on my end? Anyway, from what I see, it is NOT the same idea as mine is. But who knows, my idea might stink the joint up and not be feasible.......

[@3sgteleak]

are there any specs or videos or any info at all more on this engine?

[@o4a2l]

Are you thinking of the 2-stroke bike motors? Those valves were just for the intake charge timing -- this setup seems to be a 4-stroker with the usual poppet valves replaced ... with a huge, ported cam. (there must be a techy word for it, but it just looks like a SOHC that decided to do away with all the reciprocating parts) Not really sure what the thinking is -- makes for a weird combustion chamber, extra inerrtia & all of the piston-port problems, but ... Going to look it up now...

[@stefanrichter9162]

I see a strong mechanical problem. A conventional valve in a conventional cylinder head fits perfectly into a seat , the so called "valve-seat". In the moment of the explosion in the combustion chamber the valve is mechanically separated from the camshaft by the valve gap at the camshaft or at the rocker. So nothing impedes the further rotation of the camshaft during the working stroke of the engine. But in this "rotary-valve-shaft" the roles of valve and camshaft is conferred to the same piece of iron.The rotating shaft is strongly pushed into the bushings during the explosion causing heavy resistance against rotation. Does this engine really have competitive compression ratio and hp/litre?

[@nickpalaroan8865]

Yea im unsure about this design myself. Its kinda hard to tell from the slideshow drawings, but how does it keep the exhaust gas and incoming air seperated on the intake stroke I see exhaust gas still exiting with air coming in. Also, doesnt look like any room for variable timing making it useless in my mind. But you do bring up a good point of the power stroke putting pressure on the camshaft which I would think as a side effect reduces the power gained from the burn and cause reliability issues down the road... But its an interesting idea none the less.

[@kennethcohagen9037]

I don't know. I wonder about the thrust load on the shaft and blow by. There was a company in Canada called Coates that made rotary valve heads for small Block Fords. They claimed the motor could run at 14,000 rpm, and the valves had seals on them. The valves themselves were spherical, and it looked much more practical than this engine. The high RPM would of course allow for higher horsepower, as torqueXRPM/5250 = HP, so the higher it revs the more power you get. Torque might drop off, but not enough to negate horsepower.

[@DocWolph]

+Stefan Richter I have heard the "valve lift" complaint about rotary valves, myself. It appears, in application, to be unfounded. Since parts do not deform, evidenced by Poppet valves not crushing due to pressure inside the cylinder when closed. and boundary layer fluid dynamics easily stopping any possible leakage, barring any actual damage that is not valve lift, and binding again would be contingent on any actual damage. Rolling resistance is a none issue when you consider all the parts in a normal sprung poppet valve train that rub on each other. Even if you reduce the number of effected surfaces, which logically should increase the focus of friction and drag on the system, it still does not hash. Oil lubrication... the reason for oil changes in our cars. Since Coates, a developer of Spherical Rotary valve trains, originally developed the system of Diesel engines, in part, to cut down maintenance time and costs. Diesel compression, as you know, is VERY high, 25:1 at a least. so competitive Compression ratios? Yes.

[@twcaldwell1951]

I also wonder about thrust loads and wear. the rotary valve shaft is exposed to the combustion every cycle, the the thrust surely causes rapid wear with increased blowby. A fresh engine may have acceptable performance but probably degrades rapidly.

[@adoreslaurel]

Have they got this going yet,we had one on a Holden 6cyl engine back in the 60's, If I remember right,made in South Australia, I forget how well the gas sealing went,was used in a Speed boat I think,wish i had not sold all my old motor mags,it may have used cylinder compression to keep it down tight on the block via some saddle arrangement.

[@TheFlacker99]

What an interesting engine design! Eliminates valve float and stop valve train noise (I prefer valve train noise though /\_/\) Anyone know about overall performance of this?

[@milojanis4901]

I haven't seen the vid yet, but I'm hopeful it is not the same idea I have been wondering about for about 20 years now. I'm going to watch it. If it isn't the same, I would be interested in finally getting around to putting it on paper. Life has gotten in the way until now. If my idea does turn out to have merit, I'm still reluctant to trust sharing it with anyone. We'll see. I have a feeling someone beat me to it. Oh well, that's on me.

[@Spectrolite1]

Such an unicorn of an engine. 🦄

[@Euroracer1]

Per la tenuta in fase di compressione??

[@danielhoffman2299]

That being said, I was wishing to inquire as to the origins of the concept in the four stroke configuration. My appologies for not making my intent clear.I tend to be a person who loves, what some consider to be "useless information." My passion for all things motorized can be unbounded. Again I apologize for any misgivings I may have caused.

[@alancollard8939]

i remember seeing a norton single 500 cc engine with dual rotary valve system that was designed in the late 50,s it was no better than a cam operated system and the mgn engine was never in a f 1 race it wasnt competitive

[@justinsnider1451]

Coates engineering makes the best version of this. It's pretty rad and has all kinds of benefits beyond just performance. They can run in excess of 15:1 compression ratios with pump gas with the rotary valve design because they figured out that most preignition problems come from the exhaust valves being red hot. Whoever is interested in this design should check them out. They can make this for any application including motorcycles. But just for knowledge sake, read their findings when their design is applied to a normal American V8. I promise, by the end you'll be wondering why this hasn't replaced the poppet valve design on all internal combustion engines.

[@nickpalaroan8865]

Because research is in camless valvetrain designs. Eliminating the camshafts would increase engine efficiency quit a bit and allows for on the fly valve timing as opposed to having 1 or 2 sets of cam profiles. Then theres the ability to have a square cam profile....something impossible to do with a round camshaft, and that allows valvez to open immediately, stay open, and close immediately.

[@DocWolph]

+Nick Palaroan But that is still Poppet Valves. Also Camless is still finicky and not demonstratively reliable, have far more variable that can go wrong, computers controlling the valves, any of the valves failing in ways that has long sense figured out for cam driven and rotary valves NOT to fail. The Prospects for Camless look good, but are not really a given. Hand made specialty systems like the system develop by Keoniggsegg may have reliability but unless they can be made cost effective and easily reproduced en masse, Camless valve trains will remain a curiosity on someone bench and in the occasional test car.

[@nickpalaroan8865]

+DocWolph And on a testing bench is where some of the worlds best inventions come from.

[@DocWolph]

+Justin snider Springless and rotary valves are largely held back for a lot of reasons. One of the big ones is the "if we didn't invent it,it does not exist". Dead serious, the major car makers absolutely do not want to pay anyone for their actually earth-shattering ideas, especially when it comes to their own engines, one of the few things most Automakers still actually make themselves. There is also racing rules to consider, I am pretty sure every racing series in the US and and world wide has specific rules governing the valve train of the engines. Essentially, they all have to be sprung poppet valves. Since most development and testing is done in racing, that is one more avenue alternate valve trains have been cut off. Otherwise, there are no mechanical faults that a good dose of R&D could sort out during a coupe of racing seasons a few years working on the bench. Those are just a few issue but not nearly all of them.

[@DocWolph]

Nick Palaroan Unfortunately, history shows they are world's best anything is not always the one who gets to be the winner. And when you have Companies afraid to actually do something new, and racing orgs dead set on controlling every aspect of racing technology, new tech like Springless, Camless, and Rotary valves just never get the R&D they need.

[@burnerjack01]

I had the same thought when I was in my teens but couldn't help but think sealing and lubrication would be real problem.

[@willythewave]

+john hanrahan Same here.

[@Creeperboy099]

john hanrahan someone did it, but of course it has a few impracticalities and has a very complex cooling and oiling system

[@Heinekenberg]

I would love to see some numbers regarding this engine...

[@ajisatriaperdana]

i surprise, this rotary valves mechanism already exist 80-90's. And implemented in FI

[@lsengines]

Fantastic idea, but what about the Ve? BSFC comparing to traditional four-stroke valve mechanism?

[@asshatnowhere159]

ah thanks for that

[@georgeutterpower]

It was so long ago, but the drawings were very similiar to what is discussed here. Somewhere is a motorcycle guy who knows about this in more detail..

[@whalesong999]

It occurs to me that the spinning inertia of the rotating valves would also present some issues that might have been hard on the valve gear train. I think rotary valves have good working performance in alcohol fueled engines but gasoline fuel maintains too much heat for reliability.

[@TheL046Kid]

I think this technology was featured on the TV show Beyond 2000 in the late 80's or early 90's.....Might be an episode out there.

[@andremessier7619]

when can we get more info on that engine

[@williamruiz1631]

hermanos porfavor no tienen tesis relacionado a valvulas rotativas

[@altairvideo4581]

Guy nègre était revenu à des solutions plus classiques, comme un bloc chemisé, plutôt qu'un bloc borgne qui n'apportait rien de plus. Un allumage classique, plutôt que l’allumage rotatif trés problématique. Un système d'enroulement de courroie distri plus élaboré etc..

[@raledemi2296]

the future of efficient combustion engines is in the independent control of exhaust and more important intake times which can not or be very complicated to realize with rotary valves.

[@conner6417]

So the rotary valve is driving the piston?

[@crf80fdarkdays]

I suggest you do a little more research on how ic engines work

[@DoriFord]

Did they have some pics in the article? I mean a phrase "rotary valves" is kinda popular and can mean anything.

[@spicyF1]

I cant understand why this technology has not been adopted by major engine manufacturers as yet, this is not anything new it has been around since the 1912s, and the research has shown increases in engine performance

[@marcopaulowaihrich5876]

0:51 The fouth is smaller than the others?

[@danielhoffman2299]

I worked with a gentleman back in the early 90s that hand built a rotary valve one lungger for use in a 1/10 scale RC airplane he was building..If I'm not mistaken it was on the order of 60 cc. Was a good running motor but it had vibration issues due to a rather poor crank design...It was very similar in design to this...The motor ran very well at low RPMs for hundreds of hours... Does anyone know the origin of this concept.

[@Surferant666]

If it wasnt on youtube most people wouldnt see it...

[@CLENCHEDCURVE74]

took my freakin idea

[@EoverMC2]

Didn't Yamaha make a power plant with disk valves? in the 70's

[@t3h51d3w1nd3r]

i wonder what it sounded like

[@Creeperboy099]

t3h51d3w1nd3r someone adapted a homemade version of this valvetrain to a BMW

[@carlocattide8867]

Beh non è niente di nuovo, mi ricorda tantissimo il principio del disco rotante nel due tempi, questo è un quattro, quindi nulla di nuovo, per me.

[@TheFlacker99]

Damn, it seemed like a good idea too :(.

[@AmalgmousProxy]

Coates CSRV Engine

[@ollenhauer1]

satter liter better,werner brösel

[@DoriFord]

goo . gl/yWkq1 not really, it's a DOHC T12/W12.

[@grosaymerich]

Estupendo / Wunderbar / Wonderful / Merveilleux: se parece al / es ist wie / it looks like / il est semblable au Motor / Motor / Engine / Moteur LOTUS 2 tiempos / zweitakt / 2 stroke / deux temps del / von der / from the / du SAE paper 920779 de / by / von / de David W. Bludell y / und / and / et Malcolm H. Sanford. A disfrutarlo / Geniessen Sie es / enjoy it / jouissez-le. Salut +

[@ollenhauer1]

ventilbilder are monopolist,this better

[@AlexDeLarge90]

Yes, it was a total flop. The reliability was abysmal and they discovered that during testing. So it never had a chance to come to a start of a F1 race.

[@wabisabi6802]

I see instant fuel wastage at 01:40.

[@aaronisgrate]

+wabi sabi its like two stroke overlap.

[@knight0334]

All 4 stroke engines already do that with typical valves. It is called overlap, the escaping gases help pull in the fresh air charge.

[@asshatnowhere159]

wait wasn't this the engine that powered the 'life F1' car? if so then while it looked cool, it was a piece of crap, low on power and had a tendency to explode. the life f1 car was even outclassed in F3000

[@grooviefan]

whalesong999 this has no common ground with yamaha 2 stroke rotary valves. ggeezz. the biggest advantage in theory is higher rpm limits. this was before pneumatic valves . sealing technology is generations beyond when this engine and others like it were on the test bed. may go nowhere , but there will b a tech spin off from this somewhere.

[@grooviefan]

Docrw. rotary valve in a 2 stroke is not the same as what is happening here. do some more reading and research....

[@webbwalle]

Lame shit!