Failed M8 Piston Jets - M8 Sumping Issues - Tool Tech Tuesday - JIMS - Kevin Baxter - Pro Twin Perf

[@paulhewson4600]

Man glad you can test them before install, I bet HD didn't ,,,,,,thanks K

[@MadMexism]

Jims are pricey tools, but damn well made, and for the job done right... THE FIRST TIME.

[@richardboggs260]

Sorry I missed the show live, but I really did enjoy watching the rerun

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you sir!

[@ericdlangston]

Hi Kevin, Ellen and I (Eric) stopped at your shop a couple of weeks ago. We both enjoyed talking with you all,and seeing all your projects. Speaking with you about different modifications and and typical repair work and who has better replacement Parts. Thanks for the last available shirt! Take care you all, Eric (The other REB) and Ellen.

[@KevinBaxter]

I enjoyed meeting you as well. Thanks for coming by and for the kind words. All the best!

[@opel1954]

I miss your videos. Glad you are back.

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you very much. Covid finally ran thru here and put us way behind but now, were beginning to catch up. Also...thank you for your support!

[@TheMarkMillerGroup]

This is the perfect video to share with my local H-D mechanic! Several of us developed horrible lifter noise at start up on our 2019 M-8’s and H-D thought it was solely loose oilers so the O-rings were replaced. I’m betting that most H-D mechanics don’t have that Jim’s tester in their tool boxes. Mine goes in next for repair as soon as the o-rings come in.

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you sir. Very soon ill be releasing a video on fitting tappets, preloading, and proper pushrod adjustment.

[@mitchelldarnell5334]

Learned something today, thanks Kevin.

[@KevinBaxter]

Glad to help. Thank you sir.

[@freedom6919741]

I will go out on a limb and say your the only builder that test the oilers.

[@erichaagen9973]

Awesome vid ! ! something I never would have thought to ask a builder until now . . . Love all of the knowledge you provide us shade tree mechanics , ,

[@KevinBaxter]

Thanks Eric!

[@hankhamern5456]

Very informative Kevin, thank someone for the after market industry.

[@KevinBaxter]

Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for your support!

[@kerrylewis2581]

I just read about an M8 finding an excessive amount of oil in the crankcase after removing the crank sensor. I never gave a piston jet a second thought as a potential point of failure. I shared your video in that post hoping it helps the owner as well as others.

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you Kerry!

[@darrell3368]

Thanks Kevin I love the information and the shows and Gods blessings for you and all your family

[@paulhorvath9784]

I pmd Baxters garage and Pro Twin Kevin..Thank you ..I've noticed this last two rides but on last ride the EITMS came on as soon as i pulled off the Highway at cool Ambient temp. Its never done that before.

[@tcb8295]

Kevin, I've missed seeing your videos, it's been awhile, I'm sure you've been very busy. Thanks for taking the time to make this one. Very informative.

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you sir! Covid ran thru this place like crazy and had no choice but to pretty much shut this place down. Then with me being sick too it put us way behind but....all is well now and catching up.

[@Hooijnbvn]

Saw Dan of Zipper’s post a video months ago about the jets coming loose and causing sumping. Zipper’s is on the ball.

[@KevinBaxter]

That issue goes back to 2017 really. Danny and I discussed that issue way back then and over time, it became more common knowledge. He's a great fella...have known him for over 20 years. We compare notes and ideas regularly. Just talked to him for an hour today in fact. We share a mutual respect.

[@Hooijnbvn]

I agree about Dan! Looks as if HD has the 2020 pump version right.

[@glencross4461]

@@KevinBaxter funny you should bring up Dan at Zippers Performance! Myself and John from Cycle Fanatix met and toured Zippers facility Dan is a class act very knowledgeable and just a great guy he also explained that same issue! Thanks for your time also! Dan mentioned Passion for what you do and it shows in you Guys!!! 🤙💯🇺🇸😎

[@warbar95]

Another great video. Thank you for the info BROTHER GOD BLESS

[@charliesmash]

Didn’t know I need this. Thanks!

[@twowheeledwireman282]

HD should take a page from the Book Of Baxter. Great Video!

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you sir!

[@Greenjeans2020]

These M8 sumping issues make me wonder if I should drive my 2020, 114, across the street! I guess with a 2 year unlimited mile warranty I shouldn't worry too much. Nice video!

[@KevinBaxter]

Not all have these issues. My goal is to make people aware of all the potential causes. Thanks!

[@gregoryranlett7868]

Informative and useful, as always!

[@Dubhghaill]

Thanks Kev....

[@KevinBaxter]

thank you! and youre welcome.

[@Jim_Berry]

Good info Kevin. Can you make a video on engine balancing and explain how it’s done on a 45 degree V-Twin. It would be nice to learn about the balance factor, weighing pistons, rings and rods and their relationship to the crankshaft in order to get a smooth running engine.

[@KevinBaxter]

good topic. i'll add to the list. thanks.

[@K9RickRet]

Thank you for sharing!

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you Rick. Appreciate your support.

[@danielbates4137]

Pure genius 👍

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you sir!

[@smiley4288]

Excellent video as always..... I’ll be changing mine on my TC rebuild!!!! 👍😎👍

[@beausbargarage6213]

Is the Harley m8 a total POS? Im nervous about my 2021 now. Great

[@greggmasnick8081]

Great video and explanation!! Thank you for what you do!

[@KevinBaxter]

Glad you enjoyed it! Youre welcome and thank you!

[@TheRoadGlideRider]

Great information! 🏍💨🏍💨

[@KevinBaxter]

Glad you enjoyed it! Thank you sir!

[@billyjimbob65]

How does the Engineering Mgr at HD have a job anymore-- their engineering approval processes are flawed at SO many levels and the M8 fails just keep rolling out

[@n4zou]

In Nov 2019 I found and purchased an antique Soviet Union military Dnepr sidecar motorcycle. It was imported after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1992. It then sat in a barn for 27 years. I had to take everything apart because it sat for so long. I was amazed by the oiling system the engine uses. Oil is pumped at 6 bar or 86 psi to the crankshaft. That oil then exists around the shell type rod bearings spraying oil into the pistons, cam shaft, and lifters. There are separate jets that spray oil into the main crankshaft and cam shaft bearings, and the timing gears. They kept building them like that from 1946 until 2001 when a new CEO took over bankrupt the company. They sold millions of those Motorcycles. So many that part's for them are still made and easily available world wide. I would buy a new one if they were still being made due to the bullet proof engine design.

[@KevinBaxter]

great comment. thanks for sharing. I'll look into those.

[@sidneysnottley6414]

Great vid - Always learn something new ... Thanks.

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you sir.

[@deanneufell3284]

Is the ball and spring crimped in? What does Harley charge for new ones? Is it defective machining of the seat? Crappy spring?or just grit from the oil holding the ball away from the seat letting the blow by oil? Old 900 sportsters (oil pump)we would lap the ball in with a little lapping compound.....

[@WrenchDevil6]

Here's a major issue that no one is considering when they install high volume pumps/plates, and I admittedly had not considered it. Feuling states on their site that the HP+ oil pump provides 27% more pressure and scavenge gear volume over stock. At the time of your installation, you have already gone beyond the OEM piston oiler's capacity to operate at its prescribed (read STOCK) levels. Simply, you've just created a sumping issue by attempting to avoid a sumping issue. No one tells you that when you're installing these "upgrades" and upgrade packages, that you should properly tear the engine down and change piston oilers to prevent sumping. That doesn't make their bolt-on "upgrades" and "enhancements" very appealing. And I'm of the school that a cam/camchest upgrade, is not a "tear down". If I don't see piston heads, I only upgraded bolt-on parts. Here we've all been sitting on the edges of our seats for months/years in the hopes that someone will alleviate our fears by telling us exactly what's necessary to make our engines run forever. And, here it is. A psi increase of that pressure/volume is going to overwhelm/negate any and every stock part that is created to regulate/limit it. This is the totality of the explanation. And if you miss out on an absolutely necessary component, doom on you. However, if we didn't have Kevin Baxter doing the work and spending the hours, we would still be in the dark and still be blowing up our engines from a simple lack of information. Many of us may be decent mechanics, but we're nowhere near the level of Kevin. I wrote him a pretty long and detailed email, a while ago. And while I got no response, I completely understand that these videos are the answer to all my questions. We all owe him a debt of gratitude. Thanks, Kevin. My questions have been answered. The summation? Do it all or don't do any of it.

[@KevinBaxter]

sorry if i missed your email. several hundred a day come thru and i cant get them all. thank you for your kind words and for a great comment. I always cringed, even early in the TC days, when people were stretching bypass springs in their cam plates or installing super heavy springs that would yield as much as 60psi hot at 2000rpm, and 25 to 35 at idle. HD engines are more of a volume then pressure based system. Most of the load is taken by mechanical bearings so they arent as reliant on oil pressure to establish the bearing surface. Repeated cold starts, over and over, without running the bike for an extended period of time even with stock plates/pumps can yield poor conditions. Cold oil pressure can be 30 plus. Do it over and over, when the oiling system cant keep up, and it can just build over time.

[@bav114]

Great vid. Really interesting. Thanks

[@Marty59143]

Another great and informative video. Is there an aftermarket alternative to the factory piston oilers that is an upgrade?

[@mchristr]

Kevin, i really appreciate that Jim's has taken on the time and expense of making these tools available. But it's very difficult for me to justify a, let's say, $300 puller if I'm only going to use it once or twice. That essentially means that I'm forced to let someone else do my engine work. Just my $.02 worth.

[@KevinBaxter]

i do see your perspective. often, 2 or 3 friends will get together and buy the tools once, doing them on their own bike. split the cost. for those who want to tackle a job and have the ability, at times the tools can be less than the labor to do the job and you get to keep the tool. food for thought....

[@charliewright4840]

A brand new motor that came out in 2017 an it still has major bugs that U pay top dollar for. I sold my cross bone once i seen all the twin cam troubles. Will set ony money untill HARLEY gets it right.

[@garyd4419]

I have a question, I saw a video saying an S&S oil pump holds about 14 psi at idle, would that cause a sumping problem installing one in a twin cam?

[@KevinBaxter]

Not at all. Controlled and not at full spray at that point. Cranking that pressure up can lead to other issues though.

[@johnsb1550]

You are amazing!! Just needed to say that! I only wished I lived in Georgia, next door to you, I live in Tacoma Washington...shipping!!! I do have a question to ask you and I wonder if you could shed some light on the subject...reference; sumping and crank runout and external venting

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you John..appreciate that. Whats your question?

[@skippynj1979]

John... never ship! looks like you have a nice ride ahead from Tacoma to Winder GA... i got my local shops for small jobs but Kevin is the only shop my American v twins are going to from now on.. speaking of which.. i have to plan next winter plan..

[@johnsb1550]

@@KevinBaxter with all the M8 sumping issues I was just wondering if these crank venting fixes would help. I have a 2019 tri glide and it came with a lifetime powertrain warranty and ro be honest, I really don't want to void that. I don't think I'm having any sumping issues on the bike but who knows. I've seen a bunch of other videos on these venting fixes and if I understand correctly those "fixes" won't work if there is a bigger underlying issue. A bunch of the videos are because of excessive blow by and trying to fix it. I think I ruffled someone's feathers (wasn't intentionally) because I do believe that if you start making modifications to a bike under warranty, you could inadvertently void it. I made a comment and the reply was not what I was expecting. Am I correct in assuming that if the blow-by is bad enough to warrant altering that it should probably be checked out first? This trike has almost 50k out the door with all the additional charges, so I want to be right on this.

[@ChrisJones-el7bw]

To demonstrate graphically when the valve opens putting one of those skinny balloons over the end of it would be cool

[@KevinBaxter]

using oil with a sheet of paper in front of the nozzle works well too. just messy for a video.

[@Kerry280555]

Hi Kevin, best not to use a 40mm gage, they aren't that accurate, esp. those provided on a standard pneumatic pressure regulator. Go for a 63mm gage with an stated accuracy class and a calibration cert. as well as a scale appropriate to the pressure being measured. (Apologies if sounding schoolmasterly, but I've worked in the gases industry most of my life). That said, the video sure brought the point across. I have a M8 114 CI and it has fallen prey to sumping. Not too sure why, as I have a S&S 475 set of high-lift cams, cam plate, lifters etc., and a S&S oil pump fitted. The bike does get to feel sluggish on hot days on the freeway cruising at 120 km/h or thereabouts. No one can tell me why, but the shop I use now wants to tear my engine down. Bike doesn't emit any blue smoke, runs cool mostly unless I'm hammering it, pulls like a freight train ... etc. but runs ever so rich. I smell unburnt fuel (not oil) all the time. Use 3 tanks of gas to everyone else's 2. Maybe you can share some insight into these things. Thanks again for another very informative video. Keep 'em comin! Love them.

[@pedlpower]

Does he need a high degree of accuracy for such a simple mechanism? I'd bet it doesn't matter if that check valve opened at 12 or 14 psi.

[@Jimmy_Jim_Jim_1234]

Jims tools are great. I have a few for my track only Triumph that i use often. Next is a fork cap installation tool for my Superglide C. Do you ship to Ontario?

[@KevinBaxter]

Yes sir we do. You'll have to cover duties though.

[@Jimmy_Jim_Jim_1234]

@@KevinBaxter Great. Thanks for replying.

[@Tipsy652]

Is there a root cause to oiler failure? Such as garbage stuck in the check valve? Just curious. Thanks

[@joekubesch8558]

The part at 2:40 really struck a chord with me: my front cylinder lifters clattered something awful at startup, & HD (grudgingly) replaced them. Given that I'm now draining up to 9 oz of oil from the crank position sensor hole, could it be that leaking piston oilers are at the root of both issues?

[@KevinBaxter]

it could very well be. good luck

[@richporak]

Kevin, quick question. I have an M8 with the whole S&S cam and chest upgrade with pump, plate etc. The S&S pump runs at a much higher pressure at idle than stock. This means my piston oilers are spraying constantly also. I did have my cylinders off once just to check the oilers and yes they were loose. I of course snugged them up. Never had any sumping issues tho even before. FYI my bike is a 2019 FLTRX 107. Will the aftermarket come up with a new jet that is designed to work with the higher output aftermarket pumps? I sometimes have trouble getting back to these links so if you could address this question in a future video that would be great since I watch all your videos. Thanks

[@KevinBaxter]

Great question. Some crank that pressure up and it can lead to other issues. a controlled spray at a slightly elevated pressure isnt a big issue as long as the cold starts arent repeated over and over...cold oil makes more pressure. so if the bike is cranked, ride it so the pump can get the excess oil out. Snugging them up didnt always fix because the screws were too long to begin with. They would bottom out. Thanks for the comment.

[@gregkistner1955]

Maybe you should start building engines for Harly! 🤔🙄😄

[@patp4123]

Will you be selling stock oilers that pass the pressure test on your website?? Is there a aftermarket oiler that is better than stock being made ?

[@louisluongo5987]

Kevin, is there a way test the piston jet for leaks from the cam chest? I don't know which cavity opening goes to the piston jets but it would be a simple test before cracking the bottom end open. It wont verify plugging but would show a leak.

[@elton71737678]

Is there a definitive way to test the piston oilers? Is it possible to replace them without splitting the engine case?

[@Mike-sh1my]

You don’t have to split the cases. You can access them by removing the cylinders.

[@njscratcher9231]

Hi Kevin you seem to be really on your game i have a 2021 cvo 117 down 2-1/2 qts at 900 miles dealer said its normal had the 1000 service done @900 now i have 1200 miles and down 1qt again dealer said its normal what do you think? thanks in advance

[@KevinBaxter]

That's not the kind of "normal" i would want to see. Normal doesnt mean good. I will say, burning 3.5 qts in 1800 miles....is certainly not good.

[@JCunningham21]

checking these is a good excuse to go 128ci 😁

[@gregstone6374]

now they come out with a tool. 17 i suspected a bad oiler, built a contraption out of plate steel and a leakdown tester. oh well, better late than never

[@Tylerc12341]

I've got a 124 kit on my m8 and have every single thing in the world aftermarket. including a transmission vent and I still can't get it to quit spitting oil. I have no clue what to do.

[@KevinBaxter]

I suggest performing a leakdown and CCP test to check ring seal.

[@Tylerc12341]

@@KevinBaxter I appreciate the response. Will do.

[@ccollins9981]

Go to a dealer they'll tell you twin cams are dinosaurs old technology blah blah blah and try to sell you an M8 Come to KZbin listen to a few pros and you'll be glad you kept your twin cam.

[@genes1538]

wheres the tear down part 4?

[@edwardspaccarelli5944]

Sumping’s wrong with my engine!

[@jbauern57]

Why is there not a cover plate instead of his finger when testing the M8

[@KevinBaxter]

I made cover plates for both...but its only 15psi. That can be held with your finger. While i was testing the TC oiler, i was holding my finger over the port for the M8 as well.

[@skippynj1979]

I feel somewhat famous! 😪 Can't wait to smoke everyone and anyone up here in jersey!

[@Dubhghaill]

Hi Steven, were your lifters noisy ?

[@skippynj1979]

@@Dubhghaill that's kind of subjective.. so can't really answer.. the stock bike coming off the showroom floor was a sewing machine.. when i put the woods cam, woods lifters and and adjustable pushrods in.. she quieted down a bit.. but i also put a match tuned Exhaust on... tuned not loud.. but lots enough that i didn't hear any tapping, whirling, etc.. She was throwing oil into the airbox from the beginning and I thought the blowby coming from the cylinder heads was excessive. My harley shop said, within limits.. I put the fueling cam plate and pump and vented dip stick on.. did not solve.. so went ahead and externally breathed my heads.... and she was spitting oil out and got worse.. my oil dip stick was constantly at the ADD mark.. i would put 4 oz in at a time and it would be right down to zilch again in 100 miles.. little did i know i was just filling up the crank.. and my one cylinder rings never seated properly.. Ohwell.. I'll have a go fast reliable engine that I'm going to try and blow apart everytime i ride it 🙃

[@pmaint1]

Man! Did Harley use any good parts in the m8? It seems every part is defective. Sleeves cracking, slightly crooked rods, leaking piston oilers, lifters coming unglued Harley has to guit buying crap from Chinese suppliers and startakinh parts in house or they're going to go belly up. it's no wonder Indian is gaining ground.

[@KevinBaxter]

Not all have these issues...my goal is to educate folks to look deeper and not just bolt on parts. Finding the causes is key. This is just one of them. Often, parts get blamed for things caused by other issues.

[@frankensteinrules6511]

Maybe willie g should sell the company back to AMF!!!!!!! THE EVO says it all!!!!!!!

[@ribeyesteak3808]

After seeing all of this,im afraid to ride my Bike. Maybe it's time to switch manufacturers

[@qru06]

Another excellent and informative video sir. Always good to see you doing what you love.

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you kindly. Hope you are doing well sir!