Families sound alarm on medical transparency after deaths of their children | NewsNation Now

[@NewsNation]

For more on this story, head here: nnnow.tv/tonight

[@ButInTh33nd]

Why is this story unlisted?

[@jaimebrown7997]

It is such a relief that this issue is being brought to the attention of the public. Thank you NewsNation for not being intimidated by the AANP and for putting patients' safety first!

[@void9938]

I don't want to demonize all NPs but my god you can clearly see the ego pouring out of that AANP president...

[@daffy155]

It is TERRIBLE.

[@CsCfg]

This is an absolute disgrace, shame on Sophia Thomas and every NP who value their ego over patient care.

[@staraustin3203]

I agree. As well as the physicians that values their egos over patient care because they also make life threatening errors! Patients should always come first.

[@billr5842]

I'm not even an NP or a PA, but Doctors sold out their profession a long time ago and now we are seeing the fallout today. Thats what happens when ego/profit become the main priority.

[@cardiacmyxoma4073]

@@billr5842 It's not doctors who sold out our profession. It's corporate greed. Hospital administrators and CEOs would rather hire an NP than a doctor because they can pay the NP half the salary of a doctor. It's all about greed. Your qualms are not with physicians, they are with CEOs and nurses who let their ego overtake patient care.

[@billr5842]

@@cardiacmyxoma4073 Nope. Doctors sold out but more specifically boomer docs. CEOs obviously want this too. A doctor can make more money in their private clinics to hire NPs/PAs and they are still supervising them. Not even sure why you're blaming nurses lol. Sounds like you're just insecure with a fragile ego. PAs and NPs are here to stay (unfortunately) because most docs are spineless cucks who collect their paycheck and go home. You guys deserve it to be honest. Hopefully the next generation takes their profession more seriously. CEOs have you guys on a leash!

[@anarchistonsunsetdrive7813]

@@staraustin3203 If physicians make errors that is with 15,000 hours plus and additional years of experience. You clearly do not know this area. Listen, NP handle the "least" severe patients, but who will anyone know who is a severe patient versus a not-severe patient, you need medical training. If a physician could make mistakes, are you seriously saying that that is equivalent to NP making mistakes? This is twisted and you thought that this talking point would actually work. Lack of foresight and in-depth understanding.

[@VSG2863]

anyone who calls themself a "doctor" in a clinical setting that isn't an MD or DO needs to be prosecuted. They are intentionally misleading the patients. If NP's want full practice authority they should go to medical school. But there in lies the problem: everybody wants to be a doctor but not everyone wants to put in the work.

[@Buttlather]

@@Scrotom I think part of the problem is that it used to be that way - an experienced nurse gaining a little extra education and practicing rights, still under the supervision of a doc. Now, though, it seems nurses are completing the minimum amount of nursing needed and then going straight to NO school. I've worked with many NPs that are only 24 or so. They're also pushing for independence, which makes no sense. Either physicians are way over trained, or NPs are way under trained.

[@taintedsoul888]

@@Scrotom It sounds like the training you describe is different to the training in the video. If there are non-accredited programmes and people with 500 hours of clinical experience (roughly 1 year of clinical placement) are becoming NPs, its not NPs fault- its as said in the video, corporate greed. You can't fault clinical staff for wanting to undergo further training lol. But the laws against educational scams are awful in the USA (see: Trump Uni) this is what needs to change first.

[@Buttlather]

@@Scrotom The one that works at our office currently is about 30, but she's been an NP for about three years. She practices independently, but she does frequently give more complicated patients to the residents. I have seen her patients and read her notes care plans (and answered questions she's had). I really don't think she should be practicing independently. Just my opinion.

[@AsadShaikh1987]

@@Scrotom suicide is not acute and life threatening?

[@M4Production]

Yeah it is ILLEGAL. They should be shot dead.

[@relema2000]

This is a much needed story. Patients deserve to know who is taking care of them and understand that training levels between np and doctors are not the same. They also deserve to know corporate greed is putting inexperienced providers in the er with no physician oversight

[@cathymclaughlin9297]

Physicians: We practice medicine Nurses: We practice nursing Nurse practitioners: We practice healthcare??? What does that even mean? Sophia Thomas answering like a politician to avoid the elephant in the room, that yes, in those two cases, the unsupervised NPs were practicing medicine without a medical license. And death was the result. Since one of the NPs introduced herself to the family as an attending physician, that’s impersonating a physician. The public absolutely has a right to know. Sophia says pts can choose NPs. Well doesn’t look like Alexis Ochoa got to choose when she got to that ER.

[@GB-mt8mj]

Notice how the president of the AANP didn't actually answer any of the questions

[@medicinemiracles]

Aanp president wanted oversight of these program by AANP, not oversight by more trained physicians as they practice medicine unlike np who practice Healthcare

[@eeroth42]

You mean Sophia L. Thomas DNP, APRN, FNP-BC, PPCNP-BC, FNAP, FAANP Gotta love the alphabet soup listed on her AANP profile page.

[@fallopiogeorgio1626]

I mean how can you if the correct answer will empty your pockets

[@rdoxie7205]

She's practicing healthcare politics...

[@humanperson6705]

@@eeroth42 they use an aplabet soup yet two simple letters will always be better. MD

[@hiennle]

Spot on. Please watch and learn how to advocate for yourself and your loved ones.

[@DJ-dk4rx]

As a medical student, I take one look at that little girl's vitals and know she is severely ill. This absolutely should not have happened. Midlevel providers can be useful members of a TEAM, but should never practice independently without direct physician (MD or DO) supervision for this very reason. During the third year of medical school alone, students easily log well over 3000 hours of clinical training. Nurse Practitioners can graduate from online programs with only 500 hours of training. After medical school, I will complete a four-year residency, working 80+ hour work weeks before I can practice independently in my specialty. NPs are not held anywhere near to this same standard either, as they are not required to complete residency training at all. People deserve transparency in their medical care. Midlevels should not practice independently and should absolutely not refer to themselves as "the doctor" in a clinical setting. Protect yourselves and your loved ones and request to be seen by a physician (MD or DO). If something doesn't feel right, go to the ER and request to be seen by a physician there. Edit to add: THANK YOU NewsNation for this story. Please keep up the good fight in battling against the dangers of NP independent practice.

[@mcndjxlefnd]

I don't think this is a NP vs MD training issue. I'm an unemployed bum without even a GED and I would have admitted that girl. I have heared sooooo many cases of MDs turning away obviously sick people that needed to be admitted too. Admittedly, MDs are probably (rightly so) more often put in the position to make that mistake. I've never had a MD stitch me up as well as an NP though.

[@jameshart7958]

This is 100% and MD vs NP training issue. You don't look at what some MD's do, say oh well and call it a day. No, look at the AVERAGE level of training. If you talk refer to an MD you are completely sure they completed 4 years of intensive med school and 3-7 years of intensive residency. An NP can be great, some go to good schools. But an NP can also get their degree completely online with no clinicals taking easy "nursing theory" classes. I know my family has nurses. If you were critically ill and had the option to be seen by a random MD or NP you would be a retard to pick a NP.

[@jameshart7958]

Additonally, its all about accountability. NP associations are pushing for all the power of MDs with non of the responsibility. See how they didn't even want this to be aired. They take a random study from the 1990s out of context, continually cite it and use that as a basis for exoanding their roles. Its all about scope. The worst MD school still prepares you to practice independently. The worst NP school... lol

[@HuevoBendito]

My brother is training to be an RN and he would definitely pick up on those abnormal vitals. God, I hope the AANP get what they deserve for peddling independent mid-level practice.

[@suzannearaujo873]

As a nurse of 22 years and a current NP student, I could look at those vitals and know she was very ill. I would have sent that patient to an ER with all the necessary personnel and testing onsite to help that sick little girl. I agree that an NP should never run an ER, but they can be utilized as an adjunct to an MD or DO to provide care. I applaud all medical doctors for their knowledge and vigorous training. I will practice within my scope and look to the supervising physician for final authority on the medical issues in question.

[@carexpert5945]

Sohpia's answer at 10:50 is that Nurse practitioners practice "healthcare" and not medicine. This is so that Nurse practitioners can be held to a lower standard when things go wrong.

[@ns6725]

exactly. in a court of law, nurse practitioners are held to nursing standards even though they are acting like physicians. Medicine is a profession. Healthcare is a business. Glad to know AANP president is practicing healthcare and convincing healthcare corporations that replacing physician expertise with cheaper alternatives is cost effective. Guess who loses in every scenario: the patient.

[@is_this_name_taken]

She did say in a disingenuous way that "the definition of medicine is changing." I'd like to hear a lot more detail about what she considers the definition of medicine and whether that is in line with the medical boards' definition of medicine. If they're not practicing medicine, how to NPs feel they can completely replace care by physicians? NPs just are not trained to independently practice medicine. In some cases, they miss diagnoses an astute layperson would catch. State Boards of Nursing needs to start protecting patients. They let patients down over and over in cases of malpractice by nurse practitioners.

[@katielady873]

@@is_this_name_taken "We're changing the definition of medicine to carve out a place for NPs, who have less education and less responsibility." That's what she meant.

[@barneylinux]

To those inevitable comments that nurses have thousands of hours of clinical experience. Does thousands of hours of working in construction make you a civil engineer? Would you be happy with a bridge built by someone not trained to design and build bridges? Nurses are selected and trained for qualities that make good nurses, which is following administering medications and treatments prescribed by a doctor. Doctors(MD/ DO)are selected and trained for diagnosis, treatment, and managing the overall health of the patient. Doctors are not qualified to do nursing, nurses are not qualified practice medicine. A short two year course with online training and low standard doesn’t even come close to approaching competence of care.

[@AAA-ob5wq]

You are conflating non-skilled labor with work that requires degrees as far as the construction analogy. We could pose the same question to doctors: does thousands of hours of clinicals make you a doctor? No, it is the combination of practicum and theory that earn the degree and right to practice medicine, as with NPs. As far as diagnosing and treating, NPs earn that right via the same quality assurance that doctors abide by, AND, in many states, they are supervised by doctors who must sign off an approval of the NP's decisions. If an NP works with the supervision of the doctor, the ultimate responsibility for appropriate treatment and med Rx falls with the doctor. Medical and nursing positions are constantly evolving with technology and disease to accommodate the needs of the public. Now there are three-year medical schools which is on-par with NP education. I would take a well qualified, experienced NP who earned distinguished grades over a doctor who scraped by in pass/fail medical school. Lastly, why is all the flaming directed toward nurses, when PAs essentially practice the same? Nursing is a patriarchal occupation, traditionally seen as a feminine occupation, the underlings of male doctors. Physician Assistants don't suffer the same stigma. Trust me, if you end up on the ground because your heart stops, nurses aren't going to say, "Sorry I can't practice medicine. Maybe there's a doctor nearby." (OK, that's a bit oversimplified, but you get the idea - there are places where the two disciplines overlap and where NPs are as competent as doctors.)

[@judistanton2355]

@@AAA-ob5wq There are not 3 year medical schools. Medical schools are 4 years, in person, full time (not online part time while still working a full time day job). The first 2 years are intense classroom, theory, anatomy, physiology, pathology, pharmacology... the last 2 years are all clinical, 60+ hours a week of rigorous clinical rotations with strict guidance and supervision from attending physicians with exams after every rotation. by the time one graduates medical school they have 6000 hours of clinical experience (in addition to the first 2 years of intensive academic training). That is already more than any NP, (and this is not counting whatever experience they had prior to medical school, and everyone has some clinical experience prior to medical school), but they are not done. Then they are required to complete internship and residency, which is an additional 3-5 years (or more depending on specialty), working 60-80 hours per week year round, gaining an additional 10000-15000 hours of training, again strictly supervised and mentored by attending physicians with very stringent requirements. I love nurses (and we need nurses), but to claim NP training is remotely equivalent to MD training is absurd. It is that type of thinking and lying to the public that cost these poor children their lives.

[@JAYZ999]

@@AAA-ob5wq Did you just try to make this a gender issue?

[@tgreetsy1201]

@@AAA-ob5wq you really just put your whole foot in your damn mouth.

[@mosaicone9269]

@@AAA-ob5wq Those 3 year medical schools, and there are only a select few, condense 4 years into 3 for med students who know what specialty they want to practice. The fourth year, which is primarily elective, is cut. Core courses remain the same and the students usually begin matriculation early. These programs are very competitive and one has to meet certain conditions to be accepted. Totally unlike the accelerated online NP programs which are substandard. If the students fail to maintain their conditional acceptance, they are converted back to the 4 year program. It is absurd to state that those programs are on par with NP education. NP education is non-standardized, inconsistent and unregulated. Ranging from programs which are competitive to those with 100% acceptance rates that require only a check book and a pulse. Medical school results in an MD. A NP has a master's degree. Medicine and nursing are separate, distinct disciplines, so what are you talking about? This is where the deception begins. The lying and conflation. The curriculums are not the same, the exams are nowhere near similar, neither are the board certifications. And we have different licensing boards. You can't just make s**t up to suit your fancy. This is the link to NY Langone's 3 year accelerated program. Show me one comparable NP program. med.nyu.edu/education/md-degree/accelerated-three-year-md/early-residency-acceptance

[@lebellees-double-you2827]

11:58 "They recommend that Nurse Practioners have full practice authority because they know and understand that NP practice and clincial outcomes are EQUAL to our Physician Colleagues.... Absolutely not Sophia!! What planet are you on? The hours, training and depth of medical training are NOT EQUAL with Physicians. End of discussion.

[@efrenluisizquierdo5186]

Pass the USMLE Steps 1, 2ck, 2cs and 3 to proof that your knowledge is "equal". They want equal salary, equal scope, equal everything BUT this.

[@jazzymedic7702]

She stated this and the report she cites actually was performed by NPs with patient populations that had minimal if any issues, complications, or comorbidities

[@shaneb395]

@@efrenluisizquierdo5186 everyone wants to be a physician but no body wants to read heavy books

[@axelarroyo2521]

Is not only the USMLE steps, they said they can offer equal treatment has ER doctor which again is at least three years more of training after the steps . Including a ER board exam. Is mind blówing. This people don’t understand what a speacialty in medicine trully means.

[@ns6725]

Everyone watching this video: Please note this phenomenon is happening EVERYWHERE...rural and urban clinics and medical centers including our academic hospitals and ivory towers. EVERYWHERE. Open your eyes and now you can't unsee the problem. Bait and Switch is real. You make an appointment with a physician specialist and you are seen ONLY by the assistant. You pay the same. Demand to see the physician or refuse to pay. Call your insurance and complain. FACT: nurse practitioners and physician assistants order more unnecessary labs, imaging, medications and inappropriate referrals. Guess who is the loser in all this----> The Patient.You get to pay for all of the $$$extra$$$

[@elverdad6805]

Also in Canada. I'm an ex-nurse, I left due to the bullying. Nursing is the vocation that is the most highly respected by the public. So when I tried to tell the truth about it, it was like when the truth was coming out about priests abusing children. People either didn't believe it, or didn't want to hear it. "Nurses are angels...nurses are heroes..." I'm glad videos like this are starting to show up.

[@maazarif8903]

So sad....I fear for patients most of all. I will try my best to advocate for our MD/DO profession

[@pointeprincess302]

That NP who introduced themselves as an attending physician should be immediately reported to the state nursing board.

[@judistanton2355]

unfortunately the nursing board doesn't do anything, that's part of the problem. And the medical board can't do anything because they are not under the medical board since they are nurses and claim they are practicing nursing

[@cathymclaughlin9297]

Exactly. Though the family won the lawsuit, the liability for that case was placed in the ER medical director, who didn’t know about the patient, and the hospital corporation. That particular NP is still practicing, no longer in Oklahoma, but some VA ER in the Midwest.

[@pointeprincess302]

@@blancam.9438 Master's =/= attending physician

[@sgtOOX]

Nurse practitioners and PAs, are essential to healthcare and vital to the team, but corporate medicine forcing the role attending physicians on them is dishonest to the patients and to the NPs and PAs. No one wins here except the shareholders in these private equity groups and hospital conglomerates.

[@ns6725]

There are significant details being left off to fit this into a 15 min segment. Betty's oxygenation had multiple reading recording high 80s and the NP decided to go with the highest reading of 94%. The family asked Nurse practitioner why she was BLUE and were told that its because of fever. Common sense will tell you that's not correct. In the case of Alexus, the paramedic transporting her to the first ER called into the ER with the CORRECT diagnosis of Pulmonary Embolism. The diagnosis was on a silver platter and was made by the paramedic. The nurse practitioner seeing Alexus thought she was so much smarter than a paramedic and refused to listen. THIS IS CRIMINAL.

[@jhart729]

the insane thing is that most NPs do and should err on the side of caution and sent a lot of patients to the ER, the fact that anyone who claims to practice medicine or "advanced nursing" took one look that that girl and sent her home is extremely alarming. Being able to identify a sick patient comes with experience, I don't care how many online courses you take, you wont know that patient looks sick until you have seen hundreds of sick and not sick patients. I wasn't there until a couple months into intern year which is why I was supervised. Jumping as the primary provider in an ER with no supervision and then introducing yourself as "attending physcian" is disgusting.

[@AAA-ob5wq]

That happened to my child last week. Oxygen was 90%, respiratory distress at the ER. Only treatment was 34 doses of albuterol and massive steroids. THIRTY FOUR. After so much albuterol her heart rate was close to 200. No Covid test. No diagnosis. Just "Go home and come back if it happens again." But she didn't have NPs, she had 2 medical doctors. And, yes she's still sick, still relying on albuterol to breathe, but they turned us away the second time we went.

[@LazerAxelman]

As a Paramedic...yeah, both of these diagnoses are easy from a mile away, without any diagnostics beyond a cardiac monitor as an aid for the embolism diagnosis. These are easy diagnoses. And we're extremely accustomed to being brushed off HARD by nurses and NPs who somehow always know best, despite diagnostics and being in charge literally not being their model of training. Paramedic programs always have more clinical hours than an NP program, and many have more than twice the hours. It shows in practice.

[@mosaicone9269]

@@AAA-ob5wq I'm an EM doc. If a child(or adult)requires 34 doses of albuterol, they are admitted as far as I am concerned. I would never give that many doses of albuterol in the ER--I would have had the child placed on a continuous nebulizer. Steroids are a must. I cannot call this a mistake, it isn't. It is substandard care. I dislike criticizing my colleagues, especially in these trying times, but that was not right. I'm shocked no COVID test was done. Even if it was negative, your child still should have been admitted. Asthma still kills people. I have found that the mothers of children with chronic illnesses avoid the ER at all costs. They are not inclined to panic and know how to manage their children at home. If they come to the ER, something is wrong. I'm sorry this happened to you and I hope your child is doing better.

[@mosaicone9269]

@@LazerAxelman I read the deposition. The paramedics put the story together immediately at her dorm room. Hypoxic, hypotensive, tachypneic, tachycardia, syncope x 2 PTA. They asked her one question: if she was on BCPs. The answer was in the affirmative. They called in ahead of time and informed the staff they were bringing in a girl they suspected had a PE and to get the CT ready. NP ordered the CT then canceled it after Alexus' urine came back positive for methamphetamine. However, it was negative for amphetamine, so it was a false positive. NP did not know how to interpret the lab so she admitted Alexus with a diagnosis of methamphetamine toxicity. She re-ordered the CT about 9 hours later, but it was not a STAT order. When it came back, she saw the PE but had no idea how to read a CT. So she read the PE as a crushed sternum. In someone who was not involved in a trauma. Radiologist called 2 hours later and told her it was a PE. She transferred Alexus but she died shortly after arrival. Alexus lived for 11 hours before she died from this inept "care". It still upsets me.

[@bryandunn8086]

As an emergency physician with over 25 years in the trenches, I’ve worked with NPs of both types-those who went through nursing school, gained experience over several years of hospital work (ICU, emergency dept, OR), and those who worked with physicians in their clinics. They then went on to further their education and increase their skill set in brick and mortar NP programs. They know how a team works, and they are very good at what they do. The other type is the product of online diploma mills that crank out NPs with as little as 500 hours of clinical experience. This is the dangerous population. They don’t know what they don’t know, and their schools as well as the AANP leadership tell them from the beginning that they can offer care on par with a physician who has many years of training and tens of thousands of hours of clinical experience. Look out.

[@yallamafez2428]

Also ED residents are graduating now and can’t find jobs. I’m IM trying to moonlight in Urgent care and have been told repeatedly they will only hire NPs and PAs due to cost.

[@bryandunn8086]

@@yallamafez2428 Business has taken over medicine, to the peril of us all.

[@lebellees-double-you2827]

Agree. They are told that they can offer care on par with a physician, like some toxic brainwashing program. Just look at Sophia as a shining example of someone who talks bullshit to feed her own ego and this AANP agenda

[@xxllbb55]

AND THIS........ banned.video/watch?id=5fd135d536e1a46b3edad8c8 BRANDY VAUGHAN LOOK HER UP- dead now !

[@shiz777]

Watch out for the boomer doc who's defending NPs even though his own field went ot the absolute shithouse because they hired midlevels to replace them. No wonder you guys dump on the medicine and surgical teams nonstop, our ERs are run by undertrained and poorly educated doctor replacements.

[@is_this_name_taken]

AANP president Ms. Thomas NP said physicians & NPs can "blend together" to provide care to patients, but how is it blending if they replace physicians? She cited the Federal Trade Commission to support the idea that NPs can take the place of doctors...since when did the FTC have the clinical expertise to weigh in on this? I agree w McHugh's apt question, "If nurse practitioners are prescribing medicines & treating patients, aren't they practicing medicine?" Yes, yes they are, and especially the brand new inexperienced NPs trained by diploma mills are doing it in a manner that puts patients at grave risk. Laypeople would NOT BELIEVE the things these NPs do not know. The knowledge lack is tragic, terrifying, and harms patients every day. Physicians who state this truth are invariably maligned by NP groups, and we all need to put patients before our egos.

[@lindseyfauveau6053]

Done impeccably. Thank you for being the voice for the medical community and bringing this important issue to light.

[@absdevnation]

Nurses who call themselves doctors or pretend to be doctors are a real disgrace. We need to get rid of BS doctorate degrees in healthcare related fields. We need to stop using terms such as "provider" that tries to blur the line between physicians and non-physicians.

[@yanzhex]

Just as a reminder, Petsmart groomers need 800 hours of hands on training, NP graduation requirement is only 500 hours...

[@blancam.9438]

Wow

[@humanperson6705]

Dude that’s about the same as a paramedic. They gonna start letting us make our own decisions and practice too? Doubt it

[@mitochondriaisthepowerhous8936]

“Nurses practice healthcare, not medicine” Couldn’t have said it better myself, healthcare is a $3,500,000,000,000 business (trillion), medicine is an art as old as human civilization itself. Preying on a vulnerable and unsuspecting population is absolutely deplorable.

[@shredder767]

Always ask to be seen by an MD or DO, do NOT settle for any less.

[@breannedixon9712]

My mom had a brain aneurysm rupture and I like our PAS better You can tell they have a really good relationship with the doctors however, and they never do anything without asking The pas have more time, and are typically better in bedside manner. But that’s my experience, and my mom is making an almost full recovery from her aneurysm now so it worked

[@emanuelgrant4335]

NPs are integral to the modern healthcare system. They also should not be practicing un-supervised. I am in my 4th year of medical school will have thousands upon thousands of hours of clinical experience when I graduate this year, and I am spending 3 more years as a pediatrics resident to then learn just the basics of taking care of children. Someone should not be able to provide unsupervised care from a diploma mill with 500 hours of experience; totally absurd

[@judistanton2355]

I feel so lucky I always see a pediatrician when my children are sick. I will always stay with Kaiser for this reason. They never substitute NPs for pediatricians in their regular clinic or urgent care.

[@xxllbb55]

TRY THIS ON....... banned.video/watch?id=5fd135d536e1a46b3edad8c8 BRANDY VAUGHAN LOOK HER UP- dead now !

[@shiz777]

NPs are not integral, name me one thing NPs are needed for that physicians, nurses or other health care providers cannot do. I challenge you to.

[@breannedixon9712]

@@judistanton2355 this may be a very stupid and late question but why not use at the least a PA instead of an NP?

[@michelledan7218]

The fact that the np introducing themselves as “attending physician” yikes

[@lebellees-double-you2827]

This is beyond having an ego. This is disturbing.

[@Buttlather]

I believe they say Dr inappropriately. But I also know plaintiffs in lawsuits are coached a little bit. This family was wronged and deserves to win, but I'd be surprised if and NP would honestly use the words "attending physician." That's not even a term most people know. Just my two cents.

[@michelledan7218]

@@Buttlather i mean I believe what the family said, no reason for them go say anything that wasn’t true. For that np to be introducing herself as attending physician honestly is not that unbelievable to me given her ethics to choose to work a job she is unqualified for.

[@Buttlather]

@@michelledan7218 Maybe. I agree NPs are unqualified to practice on their own, I've just personally seen plaintiffs say things like this that really can't be unproven, and I've NEVER seen an NP call themselves an attending physician. Anything is possible.

[@michelledan7218]

@@Buttlather that’s a reasonable point!

[@devilsadvocate8296]

1 Dislike from Noctor Sophia Thomas

[@mistermahdy]

This is fantastic journalism, you presented both sides.

[@sarahazad5316]

Well done, such an important issue to cover. Nurses have always been patient advocates. Confusing that the AANP has an issue with transparency in healthcare.

[@tnguyen531985]

Thank you WGN and PPP! Patients need to be informed!

[@alexfierro8049]

When the president of the AANP sounds more like a politician than a healthcare leader, you know it's a problem.

[@yallamafez2428]

People are talking about doctor shortages... I am an internal medicine resident one year away from being an attending-there are literally no urgent care facilities willing to hire me at this time. They all have stated the cost is too much and will only hire NPs and PAs. This is not unique to me and is happening everywhere.

[@judistanton2355]

this is awful, and frustrating as they lie and claim their is a shortage. This is how they just got an independent practice bill passed in California. Sadly this will lead to doctor shortages as the same thing will happen here and more good doctors will leave the state

[@mosaicone9269]

There are a few physician-only UCs in the U.S. I have a colleague in NJ who owns one. Are you only looking to work in UCs?

[@yallamafez2428]

@@mosaicone9269 Was just looking to moonlight. I’m in the southeast unfortunately. It’s just crazy that people are saying NPs want team-based healthcare and they’re not after our jobs, when the situation in both ER And UC is exactly the opposite

[@mosaicone9269]

@@yallamafez2428 Contact AAEM. They have the name of facilities whom they believe represent the team approach with proper supervision and are physician-led. They may be able to direct you to an UC that meets your needs in the area you are seeking.

[@yallamafez2428]

@@mosaicone9269 thank you

[@mrsharoldsoblessed]

My heart goes out to the family members. I hate that this happened.

[@rdoxie7205]

Medicine is an art and a science. It is not "practicing healthcare." What an ignorant thing to say. I would advocate for proper training, examinations for the NPs, PAs and DNPs and always supervision by a treating physician.

[@medmortise4605]

Shoutout to all the NPs and PAs who work their butts off alongside physicians. There are many NPs who enjoy working in a physician led team. In no world is it okay to allow a newly NP or PA graduate without the proper training to practice independently. Graduating medical students with more training aren't even allowed to do this, as it should be.

[@baboylove]

"Sophia L. Thomas, DNP, APRN, FNP-BC, PPCNP-BC, FNAP, FAANP" Ahhhhhh... wow. So this is what they call alphabet soup.

[@andywang9005]

Thank you for airing this magnificent piece

[@cheryljf6377]

Wow in a world where u can't work in a nail salon without a degree and certificate testing. Yet these people just turn anyone out with no real training 2 treat our families.

[@lebellees-double-you2827]

Agreed! In a world where you cant get an entry level job without a masters degree, let's become a nurse practitioner and masquerade as an "attending physician"!!!

[@M4Production]

I just want to say this once. Every nurse who knew that little girl was very sick but didn't recommend them to a REAL doctor, you have blood on yours hands, you are murderers in the eyes of the lord, may God have mercy on your souls.

[@elverdad6805]

Haven't you heard? "Nurses are angels and heroes".

[@ericwong1972]

Here’s another thing. If you are an np/pa, you can work at an ER one day. Next month, decide it’s not for you? Okay fine, work in an orthopedic office. Still bored? Okay switch to cardiology. It’s so easy.!

[@SA-se9hx]

Thank you for this

[@wanderlust2522]

Thank you for reporting on this. The public needs to know the truth

[@JAREDJWALLENMD]

Thank you News Nation for bringing such an important story into the light, in spite of significant pressure from those that wanted to prevent this information from being shared with the public.

[@safina179]

If NPs are getting so much power, why arent they mandated to do more clinical hours and residency? Thats just common sense. If someone is treating and medicating a patient, they should have the proper education and experience to so so.

[@mlj1126]

Very eye opening!

[@chiquor]

This feels like idiocracy. Only in our country can this abomination of “nurses” getting online degrees to practice in an equivalent manner as a physician take place. Clearly it’s about money as there’s literally no rational or logical argument to continue to graduate these sham clinicians. Most important part of the bit is to ALWAYS ask for the doctor when confronted with one of these fool nurses.

[@ns6725]

It's literally happening EVERYWHERE...rural and urban. Academic hospitals and ivory towers. EVERYWHERE

[@judistanton2355]

@@ns6725 yes but only in America where profit drives healthcare. The push for NP "independence" comes from huge companies like Aetna/CVS/United/Optum (which might all be one company now) who make money employing them and having them work in and prescribe medications from their pharmacies...

[@elverdad6805]

The last week of our nursing program, a leader in nurse training came to our class and said (the constant push to get more diplomas and letters, and the ever increasing length of nurse training is) "About the money". But it was too late to get our money back.

[@rymo35]

This is very scary indeed. Patients are none the wiser to what is going on behind the scenes

[@kdhlkjhdlk]

I'm glad those practitioners and companies will be sued to bankruptcy.

[@RobertoChavezM]

If i pay to see a doctor, I want a doctor.

[@JAYZ999]

That is messed up. As a medical student, if I am allowed to independently practice only after the first 2 (pre-clinical) years I would REFUSE because I KNOW I would still be absolutely incompetent. Hell, even after graduating a lot of doctors need time in residency to adjust, let alone straight outta 2 year degree.

[@edwindekock3645]

Exactly! The more doctors learn, the more they realize they don’t know and it motivates them to study/work harder. NPs coming out of these diploma mills don’t know what they don’t know.

[@xXxMCmanxXx]

Such preventable deaths man These and the story about the girl who died because the CRNA left her unattended for 5 hours are heart breaking.

[@krystynachaberek4853]

Doctor is the doctor. The insurance company pays fraction what would they pay for the doctor. Ask if they are MD or PA or nurse practitioner if they are not MD request to see the MD.

[@OriginalBrett610]

That interviewer was so sick of the bullshit from that head of AANP. Thank you for standing up for the truth and doing the right thing in releasing this piece. 🙏

[@salmoni94]

If you want to be a doctor, go to medical school.....as simple as that

[@tkdchic78]

This is terrifying, how anyone would think a heart rate of 170 is “normal” blows my mind. Y’all be worried if your heart rate is over 120. Normal is under 100.

[@nicksears7734]

I find it really sad that Sophia Thomas (and by extension the AANP in general) clearly care more about being to use the term "doctor" over what happened to Alexus or Betty. They gave the news station "significant" pushback not to run the story because it damaged their reputation, but offered NOTHING to the families in terms of consolidation or investigation when their inability to uphold the standard of care led to bad outcomes. Seems like egos are more important to some people than patient safety and care......

[@rightcareprimarycare7624]

Thank you !! This is so informative and helpful. Eye opening.

[@Kevin-zj7mg]

Thank you for doing the work. Finally journalists have caught on to this, it has been worsening since Obama era.

[@RanbirSingh-st2to]

How about cancel all of this nurse practitioner and mid level nonsense and send them back to bedside patient care. Then, use that funding from the diploma mill NP programs to open more residency positions for primary care specialties in rural and underserved areas. There, I fixed the problem of "physician shortage".

[@elverdad6805]

Any chance you're willing to come to Canada and run our health care system?

[@RanbirSingh-st2to]

@@elverdad6805 Trudeau would never invite me haha

[@elverdad6805]

@@RanbirSingh-st2to Jus' grow your beard out and put on a toque with earflaps. He'll assume you're Canadian. And while you're here, please consider running for Prime Minister. :)

[@RanbirSingh-st2to]

@@elverdad6805 haha who was your last good prime minister?

[@mrsharoldsoblessed]

Unbelievable & Beyond Tragic!

[@thamill3826]

Thank you for this story!!!!

[@a.d.w8385]

This is Nurses being prideful and putting their ego first. I agree that the field deserves respect. But to act like a doctor to prove you deserve the same prestige is selfish and irresponsible.

[@nsssrs]

great report

[@jene7955]

I only trust my care to physicians MD or DO or physicians assistant PA-C. I do not seek out other care. Think about it 10,000 hours of training versus some varying amount of NP training done at some online or other school

[@rsoto9973]

Sad but I am sure happens everyday . I’ve met wonderful arnps but others that come out of schools especially online schools and don’t know what a diuretic is . There are great training programs but some very weak programs , not good standardization of education . Sadly patients are the ones who end up suffering consequences like this . Once they get independent practice no worries their malpractice insurance will triple . There needs to be transparency in healthcare , patients must know who is providing their care and must make informed choices .

[@Nobodybudd]

it looks like this video is unlisted. I can not search for it directly on youtube! anyone having the same issue or is it only me?

[@elverdad6805]

It showed up for me on a search of "dangers of nurse practitioners".

[@sweb3590]

You must realize that when you see a dr nurse hospital urgent care ask questions go with your gut and remember you hired them. Seriously in that moment you hired them to provide a medical diagnosis find out what’s wrong with you or your family/friend just know they are you going to charge you for their service so don’t be afraid worried you might offend. Take care of you/fam/friend BC if something goes bad you won’t feel guilty or at fault.

[@elverdad6805]

"Nursing Diagnoses" have names like "Imbalanced Energy Field". It's just more deception trying to make nursing look academic. I'm an ex-nurse, and that and the bullying were the reasons I left.

[@projectile8228]

Something strange with the parents

[@karinasmith5183]

As nurse practitioner I do NOT want supervision, because doctor not interested in helping np with patient care , they just want money for supervision. It cost from $500 to $10,000 a month to get doctor to sign off on paperwork. I graduated from accredited school, but I am lucking hand on skills. I believe that we need to be required to complete residency. I am trying to apply for residency, but there is only 3 - 4 spots available and only 1 spot for NP and 3 spots for pa.

[@suzannehartmann946]

Nurse Practitioners are NOT DOCTORS and they are SUPPOSED to be overseen by regular doctors. I am tired of being seen by NPs who are NOT double checked EVER. Who CLEARLY make mistakes in diagnosis. Who do NOT make obvious and needed referrals or order needed diagnostic tests. ONE example, after a car accident, having a plate and four screws in my neck, I requested a referral to orthopedics, He said not without an xray. I said yes please. Requested the xray THREE TIMES over two weeks. The third time I requested the overseeing DOCTOR request the xray. The doctor refused to see the medical record or me. I had to go somewhere else.

[@thelegoonurfloor5347]

She looked like a zombie, even viewers like us could see something was very wrong, poor girl. Let her rest in peace.

[@AdamTaghavi1]

27 nurses disliked this video

[@blancam.9438]

They are apart of the problem too...instead of trying to fix the issues.

[@olimphus26]

“Preexisting health condition” No shit Sherlock, the one condition you failed to diagnose…

[@arubuolaebenezer9986]

NHS take a good cue and following the same route

[@MohammadHossainMD]

i DoNt pRaCtiCe MeDiCiNe....i pRacTICe hEAlthcARe!!! Sure jen.

[@aakksshhaayy]

Clearly mid-levels are a lower tier below actual Physicians (MD's and DO's)

[@edwindekock3645]

They're simply not trained to the same level, which is why physician supervision is important.

[@navyfarrow5333]

20000 hrs of training for an MD or DO vs. 500 hours of online school. Give me a doctor, not a noctor.

[@shiz777]

NP$ have a fraction of the education and training an MD doe$ but for $ome rea$on American Healthcare prize$ them over a physician

[@jonathanking3223]

In the UK advanced nurse practice is delivered in university, face to face at masters level. I cannot understand how in the US it can be delivered via distance learning.

[@nitakim6127]

:(

[@justbe1451]

Healthcare should never be a corporate business, $$ will rule over life.

[@DavidSilva-vo2hf]

US is the only country doing this correct?

[@minhlikesmusic444]

yikesss

[@bubblessmile6514]

Core competencies!! That was the key word for me. So I have core competencies, I guess I can be a Dr. this is why America is going done the sh8t hole. Schools are now doing this same thing. Teachers no longer have to have teaching degrees. It’s amazing horrific. I got an email saying they needed teachers and if you have a 2 yr degree for anything you can come and be a teacher now... no experience, nothing. People with worthless basket weaving degree are now in your kids classrooms. And they stopped demanding the teachers degree, because the ones wanting to become TEACHERS could not pass the exams for the certification. No biggie

[@user-wi4lm8lg8p]

Unfortunately, this happens more often than not...this was negligence indeed. This is a case of corporate greed. They're trying to cut costs at the expense of our most priceless and precious commodities: our children's lives. NPs should NOT be used as substitutes for MDs...HUGE DIFFERENCES. Online Healthcare degrees are the blame. Scary. CLINICALS are IMPORTANT.-RN.

[@snowynightowl7473]

Listen if you have even the littlest gut feeling or your heart is telling you something is not right do your research and call a lawyer to check things out for you.

[@SaSpursFan]

doctors are so busy with our classicaly style of training we dont have time to advocate and lobby for ourselves like these NPs

[@warriorshah]

Don't forget how dreadful CRNA's can be

[@a.d.w8385]

Ok. Sure. Physicians don't "own" ther term "Doctor". BUT, many in the general public don't know that. Shes so damn prideful. And she knows that. Do not mislead people because you have an ego and want a certain title. Absolutely ridiculous.

[@LekarzAleksander]

Finally exposing this nonsense.

[@queenbell9230]

I’m a damn lpn student and I know better than this.

[@brendaeaster8874]

The man conduting these interviews acts like an icy robot. No smile, no charm, yuck.

[@strnglhld]

Investigative reporters shouldn’t be “charming” or “pleasant” - that’s the point.

[@Mimiscellaneous]

I think this comes down to a need for standardized training and residencies for nurse practitioners. Because these incidents happened in states where physician supervision is required. You can have 2 doctors supervising 1 NP but if the NP isn’t trained properly - then it’s for nothing. I do think Nurse Practitioners overall provide great care; my PCP is an NP and she’s amazing - very knowledgeable. However, it’s undeniable that there is a problem when it comes to education quality for NPs.

[@yallamafez2428]

If they want to practice independently they can take the same step 1,2, 3 exams that physicians do.

[@Mimiscellaneous]

@@yallamafez2428 That’s your idea. It sounds good, but I can’t honestly agree or disagree because IDK much about those exams. MDs education also gets a bit of a side eye from me but for an entirely different reason. Also, not every NP wants to practice independently. But every NP has a duty to provide safe care. I’m not sure step 1-3 can really determine the ability to provide safe care; because plenty of baby Docs make way more mistakes than NPs in residency but they are able to be corrected because it’s residency. Hence why I think the main need is in training - direct guided learning. No amount of book knowledge can prepare you for actually seeing patients. Because people are people - and not every case is textbook.

[@is_this_name_taken]

A residency would not be much help without the underlying foundation in anatomy and the physiology of disease. It makes a giant difference and cannot be learned reasonably well solely on the job. It would be great if the truth were otherwise, but it's a disservice to patients everywhere to think that people can complete advanced training without knowing the often complicated basics

[@Mimiscellaneous]

@@is_this_name_taken I think a good NP school should definitely do more in that department to reteach those courses at an advanced level. However, Nurses took those kinds of classes in Nursing school. You don’t think nurses have to learn the pathophysiology behind the diseases they are in charge of monitoring at the hospital? You don’t think they have to take both standard levels of A&P? Microbiology? Organic Chemistry? You don’t think they have to learn what effect the drugs that are prescribed to their patients are going to have? They don’t need to learn potential complications with said diseases and medications and why that would be the case? Doctors are great, but they aren’t with the patient most of the time. Who assesses the patient first? Who is around to notice changes in a patient’s condition? Who calls the codes? Many times - puts orders in for the doctors? Advocates for the patient’s wellbeing? If a nurse isn’t armed with that kind of basic knowledge - they would be useless as a nurse talk less of an NP. I’ll definitely say that not every nurse is equal. But the same could be said for any professional. I did more research and I agree with the commenter above. Any advanced practice personnel that wants to practice independently should be able to take the Usmle steps 1-3 or some variant of that. However, I still stand by what I said. You can be the smartest person in the room - if you can’t apply what you learn to practice ~ it means nothing. The person with the least book knowledge; but the most practical knowledge could easily become the best provider if trained properly.

[@mosaicone9269]

@@Mimiscellaneous What you have described is exactly the difference between the disciplines of nursing and medicine. There is a reason the term "bedside nursing" came to be. They were indeed at the bedside. The roles are different and complementary. The NP role was also complementary, but more advanced. It was never meant to be synonymous with medicine. The AANP is attempting to make it that. The work looks the same, but the cognitive approach is different because we are taught differently. Some NPs like to dismiss the didactic learning but we learn that information because it is necessary. And more expansive. Practical knowledge is nice but if one does not possess the depth of knowledge as is required in medicine, there will be a deficit in practice. There is no better examples than the AIDs epidemic and the COVID pandemic. Physicians in the community seeing patients who did not fit a pattern. With AIDS, it was gay men presenting with disorders typically seen in people with compromised immune symptoms. Except these men were healthy. That information was shared with WHO and the CDC. With COVID, docs in Wuhan, China began with a cluster of patients with pneumonia of unknown origin. To know something is abnormal, one has to know the normal. One also has to know if something is novel or not. That comes with depth of knowledge, otherwise, how can one compare? That is not learned at the bedside or "practically" alone. It is a combination of book, clinical knowledge and the cognitive approach. Forming differential diagnoses which may be extensive and have to be narrowed during the discovery process. If the "apprenticeship" model worked in medicine, the Flexner Report would not have been needed and we would not have the standardized medical education we have today. If it didn't work in medicine, how do you expect it to work with nurses who have no formal medical education? It won't. It is best if people would just respect the differences and stop trying to conflate them. If I wanted to be a nurse, I would have gone to nursing school. If someone wants to practice medicine, go to med school or mistakes like what happened to these patients should be expected. It really is that simple.

[@ronvitug4641]

This guy just as bad as Scarborough

[@brendaeaster8874]

How ridiculous!! Would you go to a plummer to get your teeth treated? Would you ask your doctor to fix your car?OMFG.

[@jaimed7387]

This case is unfortunate, sad, and not the norm for NP practice. Any NURSE would know that these vitals warrant a higher level of care and further investigation in the ER. Also most NPs do not practice nor introduce themselves as ER attending physicians nor doctors. Most NPs actually fulfill a need for patients to have access to healthcare. NPs don't go around pretending to be doctors. I fully disclose that I'm "Jaime, a Nurse Practitioner" to all my patients and they are fine with it. They are just happy that someone is willing to listen and help them. Yes, patients should be aware of the level of education and experience of their provider including physicians!!! But does that mean that NPs and PAs do not provide exceptional medical care. Look at malpractice cases in the US. There are many physicians that receive claims yearly. Are you dissecting those cases in this report? No. I've personally had the least thorough physical exams from physicians over the years of my medical care. One actually tried to kill me with her lack of care. Not knowledge but she didn't care that my heart rate was high and I was weak in the ER and sent me home to die severely dehydrated!!! So it happens across all spectrums of healthcare levels. Transparency is necessary but please don't lump all NPs as unqualified to deliver safe and effective medical care. I have diagnosed many illnesses in my patients that have been ignored by their primary care physicians before coming to me. I agree that NPs need to graduate from an accredited school and need to practice within their scope for the record. But this report is revealing two really bizarre cases out of the norm to negate all NP practice. Provide statistics and interview patients from both ends of the spectrum.

[@yallamafez2428]

It’s not when your training is so minimal compared to physicians. Yes physicians make mistakes too, that’s the point. If a person who has all that training can still make a mistake, why on earth would you let someone with less than 2% of that training do the same job? And yes that’s exactly what NPs are trying to do with independent praxtice

[@jaimed7387]

@@yallamafez2428 I'm not going to waste my time debating with you about a profession that has been around for years. Since 1965 to be exact. This profession is not new and was actually started by a physician and a nurse. If it makes you feel better to say NPs have 2% of your training so be it. No one said that NP training is better than physician training...Its different!!! NPs come from varied backgrounds of nursing experience and education. We are not walking off the street and providing healthcare. We are board certified and most of us have been nurses for years prior to becoming an NP. This is a case of malpractice that can happen in any area of healthcare as I stated before. As far as independent practice, I've done collaborative practice for years before independent practice ever was spoken of. Truth be told, I rarely interacted with the collaborative provider. I worked independently. Just like any physician seeks a consult with a specialist, that's what NPs do. It's about control and money. Do I think NPs need independence in all specialty areas? No. But, there is a place for independent practice. There is a place in the healthcare system for us all to provide holistic medical care for all. But to use these 2 cases to discredit all NPs as I stated before is very misleading.

[@Rolfrad]

Malpractice statistics mean NOTHING. Anyone with any experience in Medicine knows that. They are only related to who can pay. Example - in the case of Alexis, the malpractice suit didn't even name the NP who mistreated her. Totally ignored. Instead they went for the deep pockets - the hospital and the supervising doctor.

[@yallamafez2428]

@@jaimed7387 board certified in what? And by whom? The board of...nursing? Stop co-opting physician terms. A board certified doctor went through medical school and residency and passed numerous exams that no NP ever could. You’re not board certified, and you are exactly like the NP in this video who misled the patient about their credentials, and ultimately the patient died from a blood clot. Exactly the same

[@is_this_name_taken]

@Jaime it may not be the "norm," but it is all too common. I review cases far too similar to these cases on a daily basis. NPs are not trained to practice medicine independently (on a team with supervision resources, YES!, provided not diploma-mill-trained). They never had full foundational educational basics followed by years of closely supervised training. They do not know what they don't know...and there is so much to know. Every NP and PA I know who went to medical school says exactly this: "I did not know how very much I did not know." I'm sorry if folks feel offended by this -- no personal judgment here, just a comparison of education and training. I wish there was a great shortcut to med school and residency, but there isn't.

[@CC-qf2pp]

While this piece highlights some extremely negligent behavior, I find it telling that the news agency provided no comparative statistics related to actual patient outcomes between MDs and NPs

[@HuevoBendito]

"Most NPs/PAs prescribed opioids in a pattern similar to MDs, but NPs/PAs had more outliers who prescribed high-frequency, high-dose opioids than did MDs." pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32333312/

[@yallamafez2428]

That’s because those studies are sham studies comparing NPs overseen by physicians vs physicians..of course they would have similar outcomes. It’s all a scam

[@mosaicone9269]

1. Because it is the parents story, that's why. Their voice. A 20 minute segment about them, the children they lost and misrepresentation by HCPs. 2. There are no studies comparing outcomes between UNSUPERVISED NPs and MDs/DOs. Those studies could be done by any nursing body interested, considering the states that have FPA. So why haven't they? They certainly would be more current. But it is nonsense to compare nursing and medical outcomes. Comparing apples and potatoes. Unless they claim to be practicing medicine, in which case they should be arrested.

[@marthaoreilly6755]

That is because the AANP has no interest in comparing independent NP outcomes to MD/DO outcomes. Some of the unsupervised NP practice states have been up and running for a decade. And yet 20 year old studies of supervised NPs providing simple follow up care are twisted into evidence to support NP equality with physicians? Please unwash your brain long enough to rationally ANSWER: if unsupervised NPs are as good as physicians in delivering the same care WHERE ARE THOSE STUDIES?

[@marthaoreilly6755]

Understand it is not up to physicians to prove their training is superior to NPs. Nursing has kicked down the door demanding equal pay and privledges with doctors. Under "first do no harm" any ethical entity would prove themselves to be equal instead of relying on out of date and limited studies. The AANP has no ethics.

[@dr.lorettajacksonbrown5769]

...because physicians with all that training have NEVER missed misdiagnosed a person where they've died. Sarcasm intended. Oh, and now look who's getting degrees online because of a pandemic....medical students. Balance the storytelling and improve standards across training programs for all healthcare providers, validate credentials, and put safety checks in care delivery systems that protect the patient.

[@marthaoreilly6755]

Again if doctors make mistakes how can you advocate granting their privilege to practice medicine on an NP with far less training? This is not about a fantasy where physicians are perfect!

[@sabrinaconley7900]

This is really sad, if they actually looked into Nurse Practitioner vs Doctor safety it would show that anyone can be an awful provider and commit malpractice. There are just as many of these cases involving MDs or DOs if not more.

[@marthaoreilly6755]

When the NP screws up the physician gets sued. NP malpractice coverage is so much less and lawyers aim for the deeper pockets. Case in point in Minnesota a surgery performed by opthalmologist who had not intubated in years went horribly wrong when the CRNA lost the airway. As "captain of the ship" the physician was hit with a larger chunk of the liability than the nurse anesthetist who lost the airway. So when you look at malpractice case numbers, look a little deeper.

[@yallamafez2428]

Doctors make mistakes too. So if someone with 15-20,000 hours of rigorous medical training Can make a mistake, why on earth would you let someone with 500 hours of shadowing function as a doctor?

[@samuelc123456789]

@@yallamafez2428 this comment right here. Everyone knows the stories of physician mistakes. It’s absolute INSANITY to think that someone with a tiny fraction of the training should give it a try too