Fatal Crashes Traced to Cirrus Pilots - Episode 241

[@2Phast4Rocket]

I like the fact you guys were saying we need more data on why the pilot made the mistakes instead of just failure to control the aircraft. The public needs to know if the pilot lacked the skills, or the pilot was reckless, or other. Many GA accident reports do not have this type of information.

[@williamlane1033]

I fly a Cirrus SR22 and transitioned from a Piper Arrow over 15 years ago. I firmly believe that flying the Arrow for 9 years without all of the avionics forced me to be a proficient hands on pilot, improved my decision making and airmanship. Energy management and stabilized approaches are extremely important in the Cirrus. I would add that a 60’ wide runway may have also contributed to a visual illusion of higher altitude than actual.

[@briananderson4032]

I have always enjoyed listening to Greg. The other two are also very knowledgeable.

[@johnqdoe]

The psychological profile of Cirrus pilots can be quantified and should be critiqued.

[@cypilotiowan4761]

Similar claims have been made over the years: Bonanza v-tail owners, Mooney owners, etc… There are ~10,000 SR’s in the field. You can’t make a broad sweeping pronouncement like that.

[@theresacaron4238]

Flying is a serious business, if you can't treat it seriously, regardless how rich you are, you do not belong in an airplane. Another case of more money than brains, lack of planning and lack of knowledge. I had most of my aircraft manual memorized and checked its contents all the time for performance charts, flying is not a guessing game, period.

[@enshk79]

Agreed. FLYING IS NOT A HOBBY. It’s an extremely dangerous form of transportation where everything HAS TO be working perfectly just to stay in the air. If you get in trouble in the sky, there aren’t many outcomes where you will make it out alive. I don’t believe in recreational flying. It’s crazy to go up in the air “just for fun”. Get in, get to your destination, get out. There’s no other reason to voluntarily board a plane. It’s simply not worth the risk. Every single time I have to fly, after landing, I profusely and sincerely thank God for getting me through another flight. Also, I may or may not have watched one too many plane crash documentaries…

[@lebojay]

A person can have plenty of brains and still lack knowledge. Incompetence isn’t always a result of stupidity. I’m not sure how useful it is to blame a person for not knowing something. I mean, if Dale Snodgrass can leave his gust lock on, then none of us are immune to making dumb mistakes.

[@keithmueller9860]

Sorta like sky diving. ​@@enshk79

[@fingerhorn4]

What has this got to do with a specific airport? Yes, there were trees at the end of the runway, as there are at many, many airfields. It's similar to saying a car driver had an accident because he/she was not familiar with the road. The whole point of flight training is that it should be universal no matter where you take off or land. Of course you do need to be aware of special circumstances that could be local. But a license should mean you are trained sufficiently to handle almost any runway with similar lengths. You need to look at the aircraft loading, CofG, speed, and decision to go around rather than just the location.

[@patrickoleary2862]

Great video guys 👍

[@RusscanFLY]

This has been a great video! I really learned a lot from these learned gentlemen. I could see all of the things happening based on the scenarios that they lay out. Thank you for sharing!

[@JamesMiller-vi7ib]

Remind me of the old saying an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Really enjoy your videos. Keep it up. Thank you.

[@smacfe]

Great analysis. It is scary when I fly with someone who does not have an intuitive understanding of how an airplane flies, has a full understanding of the performance envelope of that aircraft, plus a complete situational awareness. All of that is necessary and even the best pilots are constantly looking to improve their skills, yet too many pilots (and even many of the self-proclaimed experts) are sorely lacking in these skills PLUS have a large excess of ego over skill to really be a safe pilot.

[@lc2962]

I learn so much about aviation on this show and all the others I watch. I’m not a pilot, just a commercial airline customer. Before these very important KZbin shows about aviation showed up, i was terrified to fly, but i forced myself. Learning so much has cut that fear in half. I’m super concerned about general aviation though. It seems almost anybody can jump in an aircraft and start flying without doing basic work. It’s scary and i hope the FAA does something about it. Not only is the pilot & passengers on flight in potential danger, but so is the public on the ground. Piloting is a serious & important position that only serious & attentive people should be doing in my opinion.

[@FasterLower]

Guys, 3000 ft runways may be "short" for the USA but in the UK 3000ft (1000m) is a good length runway. Longer runways my well be needed for hot and hign (Denver) but sea level (UK) its fine, even with obsticles off the end of the runway. Lading 400 ft in to (Next to the PAPIs) on a 2800 ft runway at 150 lbs under max in a TB-20 (80kts over the fence) you don't even need to use the brakes to make the turnoff.

[@GeneralDesignInnovation-es4zz]

I don't think most SEL piston pilots would consider 3000' "short." That's a more-than-adequate, completely safe length for most single-engine light planes.

[@mikecournoyer]

I have a 2021 SR22 NA that I bought new coming out of a Cherokee 6. I took the 3 day training with an instructor that was part of the purchase and it was excellent.. I also am a member of COPA (Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association) and they have lots of events throughout the year with training and classes. As Mentioned did this pilot have the formal training or any training at all? Personally I would never put 5 in my airplane and when I have 4, I make sure we are good on weight and CG.

[@ProbableCause-DanGryder]

You “traced” both fatal Cirrus crashes to Cirrus pilots?!?! Not much tracing required to figure that out. These two accidents have NOTHING to do with unfamiliarity with the airport. BOTH directly caused by LACK OF SPEED AWARENESS Makes no difference where they happened to be or how familiar they were with where they were trying to get to! You talked for 37 minutes and concluded with “Please fly safely.” That doesn’t help anyone. Your conclusion should be to bug, brief, and fly DMMS at all times. Both of these fatals were a lack of speed awareness condition.

[@mat1500]

Right on, Dan.

[@ShadesOClarity]

Dan, John's an old school investigator. You have Greg Feith on here. Show some respect.

[@ProbableCause-DanGryder]

@@ShadesOClarity For what?

[@robertdennard615]

Can't believe I'm saying this but I actually agree with Dan. Pvu is a pretty straight forward field other than a black hole approach at night. That field had nothing to do with it and it's towered. This should have been more about energy management than about airport familiarity.

[@w5cdt]

My Cirrus transition instructor said “3000’ should be your limit for your SR20”

[@calburnIII]

Today’s pilots have so many more tools for preflight preparation than what was available when us old farts learned to fly back in the 70s. And yet, it’s apparent that too many still do the old “count the wings, kick the tires, light the fires, and fly” type of preflight. I have never flown a Cirrus, nor even been in one. But I have flown high performance singles many times. The biggest difference between trainers and high performance airplanes is speed control, which is so much more critical in the higher performance airplanes. And yet, when I read accident reports or watch videos about them, it seems as if a huge contributing factor is either excessive speed (most common) or insufficient speed. And so much of that is that basic stick and rudder skills seem to be lacking in too many of today’s pilots. In both of these accidents, I have less concern about their familiarity with the airports than their familiarity with the airplanes. Did the pilots know and adhere to the proper airspeeds? Did they practice with the airplanes loaded as they were that day? Apparently not.

[@joshuaboulee8190]

It's so sad to hear about these accidents. I always wonder at what point the pilot realized things were out of control. Was it before or after the aircraft departed controlled flight? Was it a total surprise or a result of consciously pushing the limits because they didn't see a better option at that point?

[@bryanford1139]

I've asked this before, but, how does one become an FAA or NTSB investigator?? Is there a school for this or is this a "Luck-of-the-draw" job interview/landing/appointment? Thanks guys, keep up the good work.

[@CliffordStaley]

You guys are sort of missing the point. You started out correctly, but went down a rat hole. Having transition from old Avionics’s to new avionics I can tell you the work load on the new avionics is much worse. It’s not if everything is automated but when you need info you have to look for it. Garmin and avidyne and all the others are chasing eye candy and not clear presentation of flight data. For 50 years pilots helped create instruments that communicated what was needed to fly. Now, aviation software is being developed by game designers. Instead of a large bar showing your delta, you get a tiny little triangle. The FAA is clearing in the pockets of these big companies. Some old ancient FAA employees are approving designs that are dangerous.

[@dermick]

A couple of points - Greg is right - what can the NTSB investigation turn up by going onsite that they can't learn from looking at the data? I think we pretty much know what happened in both of these crashes. Even if they find a CFI that said that pilot was completely incompetent, how will it help us? We all know what to do to avoid this kind of crash. The trick is how do we get every pilot to keep these kinds of incidents in mind when they are planning and flying? On the KFFA crash - one point that I read somewhere was that the pilot flew left hand traffic when the airport requests right hand traffic for RWY21. Kind of confirms that the planning was either incomplete, or there was some good but unknown reason to not fly the correct pattern. You put a lot of emphasis on how many times a pilot landed at that airport recently. We should be able to land at almost any airport after we've done a reasonable self-briefing. Today, we can get 3d simulations of any airport on the planet, so there's really no excuse to be unfamiliar with a new airport.

[@jonasbaine3538]

Doesn’t a cirrus have multiple active and passive stall avoidance systems ?

[@davidbaldwin1591]

What about investigations with a "legal" probable cause, followed with separate investigators' opinions that can't be used to sue for money?

[@otfinoskiotfinoski8856]

A pattern in these stories of small plane crashes is that the pilots ego and confidence far outweighs their skill and experience.I feel sorry for their poor passengers.

[@bwalker4194]

Both of these pilots had basic flying skill deficiencies. Though they both came into the downwind, descending and with too much speed, the first guy was much worse. He was very fast into the base leg and almost overshot final. That major tightening of his turn to final meant a big pull, more bank and more Gs. His constant turns also meant he could never level the wings on base to check if final was clear. His second attempt was similar but with less speed and again he almost overshot final having to add Gs and bank angle. These guys either had poor instruction or got very lazy after receiving their licenses.

[@WalterThorne-h5k]

Accelerated stall likely possible. It seems the pattern is tight increasing the possibility of over banking with a pull of the side stick.

[@charliesmith6743]

You seem to be saying to never leave your home airport. Somehow, I don't think that was the intended message. Perhaps the team could do a short 5-10 minute video going over the 3-4 crucial messages you'd like to send for those going into unfamiliar airports. We could all benefit from your experience. Last year, a pilot at my home airport put his SR-22 into the trees at dusk and didn't survive. I've never flown a Cirrus but many of the sages here felt that the pilot was attempting a go-around and rolled the airplane due to the high torque of the engine. No NTSB report yet but perhaps a factor for the VA accident.

[@denverbraughler3948]

Is there a good reason that Greg and John don’t use green screen backgrounds? Green cloth isn’t expensive.

[@katrinagex77]

Well they travel a lot(especially Greg), so if you think that they can just set up a green screen anywhere, you are sadly mistaken. It takes time to which they don't always have, and the places they go are not always reliable for them to set it up in. Plus, it's possible that they have tried that and it didn't work out for them. I hope that answers your question. If not, then at least I know I did my best.

[@denverbraughler3948]

@@katrinagex77: You obviously don’t have one either. A green screen is trivial to pack, deploy, and repack in one minute and takes no more space than two large tee-shirts.

[@denverbraughler3948]

@RetreadPhoto: You just listen. Otherwise, you would know that they use fake backgrounds. I have no objection to real backgrounds. But the software generated background deleting parts of their body looks stupid.

[@Q1776Q]

The background does not have to be green... you can key off of any color... or a combination of colors.

[@denverbraughler3948]

Yes, background must be non skin-tone and not color of clothing, so green is a good and popular choice. The lower the contrast the greater the errors.

[@keithwalker6892]

Continuing , when I got my PPL they cut off my tie and told me I could learn to fly. Nothing has changed except that it has got so expensive to learn to learn to fly now that I doubt most people will not have enough money to get the experience. There are a lot of general aviation crashes now so suggest get a sailboat , just as much fun and safer

[@CaptainRon1913]

General aviation accidents are at a 11yr low. What are you talking about?

[@snowcub7139]

As they say in Australia, "You gotta have Feith! " I love this channel.

[@stuartsimek9393]

Good insights for flight planning, briefing and being on your A game when going into the airport/landing environment. Could do without the snarky/jealous Cirrus "Wiz-Bang" comments and calling the older gentleman "older than dirt".

[@pirateatfourty]

the safest way to not crash is do not do it. simple i have been flying since 1961 when i had my 1st lesson at age 8 by the time i was able to get my license i had almost 400 hrs. i have owned over15 planes, from junk dukes to 421 cessnas, i bought my last plane in 1980 was a new P210 which i still own. and a 1979 P337 i have never had any issues n o landing gear failures. people fly way over their heads. too over confident, i mean yeah sure i have a glass panel; but i also wont fly in bad weather but what i do not undertand is how new pilots think they are gods gift to flyin, know everything. when they kill themselves i do not feel sorry for them

[@jiyushugi1085]

Airplanes are like motorcycles. Almost anyone can learn to operate one but most people shouldn't.

[@DanFrederiksen]

I hadn't heard about these 2. Blancolirio must be slacking. Maybe skip the 1½ minute intro, that's just wasting time. And maybe lead with the ADS-B data instead of speaking in generalities. We need the specifics to know what went wrong. Software like FlySto can somewhat reconstruct the flight so we can see if the approach was unstable and nervous and too fast or if the pilot just doubted ability to land. AT no point did you mention visibility or lighting? Try to focus on the elements of the cases first before general advice. If these were both turn stalls at low altitude, presumably looking at the ADS-B would say that. Of course checking google earth for runway conditions and surroundings it good but that may not have been in play here at all.

[@DanFrederiksen]

@RetreadPhoto isn't that comment critical of me?

[@flycatchful]

A Cirrus is a high-performance aircraft not a Cessna 150.

[@MikeRetsoc]

KPVU has two long runways, shortest is 6600'. Unfamiliarity with the airport, with a tower and plenty of runway, is unlikely a factor. You guys are hung up on that for reasons I dont understand. Airplanes travel. To airports unfamiliar to the pilot. Yes, flight planning makes a difference. But how is a once in 6 week visit (if that) a significant factor in accident factors? Speed management and, given the training operations at KPVU, cockpit distractions will be in the NTSB report.

[@scottw5315]

3000 feet is pretty typical for small metro airports. I would guess the Cirrus should be able to land in about a thousand feet. It appears that this pilot lacked basic airmanship skills. 6-7 degree glideslope is about twice what is normal. The pilot should have recognized that he was too high and executed a go around.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

we never will get the answers because we cannot have a system where every plane has some form of CVR... with modern technology that's hard to understand

[@TheAirplaneDriver]

Regarding the first case, I’m sorry but if a pilot can’t land a light piston single engine airplane on a 3,000’ runway located basically at sea level he shouldn’t be flying at all. And, what does weights have to do with it? If they were under max gross and within CG (and if they weren’t they probably would have never gotten much off the ground to begin with) then fly the published speeds and call it done. 1.3 Vso is 1.3 Vso, temperature or density altitude has nothing to do with approach speeds. Gusty winds? add 1/2 the gust factor. Indicated airspeed is king. Don’t land with a tailwind. It’s not that complicated. And why can’t a reasonably competent pilot land at an airport he isn’t familiar with? Why is that even a factor. If that was the case I would have only landed my 5,000 + logged landings at the three or four airports I received dual at 31 years ago. Airports have standardized runway dimensions, markings, lateral and approach clearances for a reason. Yes, some have unexpected trees and obstacles at the approach end…steepen the glideslope, stay on speed and your in. I’m not sure I follow the logic in the discussion. Sorry.

[@nkennethdaniel]

No way you get 3 grown adults in the back of this Cirrus. Might help to have a basic understanding of the seating configuration of the plane you are talking about before going on camera and speculating. What do you all call it, “preplanning?” Shouldn’t it apply to what you guys are doing as well? No kid is sitting in the co-pilot seat of this Cirrus while putting 3 grown adults in the back. No only is that likely impossible, space wise, but the COG would be way out of whack as well. So just like your speculation about how familiar the pilot was with the aircraft and airport, you all should not engage in idle speculation about seating configuration, etc., when you obviously do not know that airplane. What you all do is incredibly helpful to pilots. Do not do it haphazardly. Coming on camera and saying we aren’t sure what we are going to talk about today and then saying crazy stuff like was said here is not particularly helpful.

[@richardturner6278]

This is another training deficiency we have in our private pilot training syllabus. Most new pilots learn from the beginning on long fancy runways and from my experience instructors always encourage students to "use" the whole runway. Don't worry about trying to land on the numbers. My instructor slapped me on the wrist constantly for this. I like to land within 5 feet of the end of the hardest surface to land on . I learned on a very short farm strip so it was natural for me to always have a perfectly set up stable approach every time. Its mandatory flying off-airport. We are setting many pilots up for failure from the beginning. Especially pilots that are fortunate enough to be wealthier than the average person because they are so quick to go buy that million dollar cirrus just because they can. I say this daily but it's a fact that the aviation community will never adopt for many reasons. All new student pilots show have to get 20 hrs in a j-3 and solo before moving one step further in training. And original panel too. None of this fancy glass. It would save so many lives. We are not, except for a few circumstances teaching new pilots how to fly. We are teaching them how to play a video game and flying is serious business. If you cant get in the average trainer and fly a lap around the pattern with no instruments you should not be certified to fly! Period. You guys are great, keep up the good work.

[@johnneyland3334]

Airstrip !

[@ChadDidNothingWrong]

29:07 There are a handful of random KZbinrs now who do better investigations than the NTSB ever does these days, and almost certainly one of them will visit the scene, fly the path, and provide what the NTSB won’t. I imagine at least Dan Gryder will end up out there if he hasn’t already considering the details here. I watched that guy find the cause of some Cessna crash just from the parts that got forgotten at the scene by the NTSB one time. It was insane. I can’t remember what it was, but it was like a melted magneto or something-meanwhile the NTSB had already exclusively cited some kind of flagrant pilot error. Then there’s another channel I forgot the name of which went much, MUCH deeper into the Kobe Bryant crash, going over the pilots history and habits in many similar situations over the years, and made an incredibly compelling case as to what happened (once which the NTSB didn’t even consider).

[@RaysDad]

Bonanza was the first to blame the pilot rather than the aircraft. Genius move by the marketing department! -- Now Cirrus is doing the same thing. The SR design maximizes speed over stability, it's a fast slippery flyer, and that is why the plane is dangerous.

[@scottw5315]

If you lack basic airmanship skills but can afford a million dollar airplane, maybe you should take up golf instead. I see this kind of report over and over again. Wealthy man, successful in business, medicine or what have you, usually starts flying relatively late in life, can afford a really nice airplane, then manages to kill himself along with innocent family and friends...apologies for stating the obvious.

[@RaysDad]

@RetreadPhoto Some aircraft that compete with the SR are slower because they were designed for stability, with more lift but also more drag. The Cessna 182 is an example. It has significantly lower stall speeds and approach speeds than SR planes, and is more forgiving when a weekend pilot makes a mistake.

[@williamlane1033]

The SR does not maximize speed over stability. The Cirrus is very stable even just above stall. It’s all about airmanship and energy management not unlike any other airplane. I’ve flown a Cirrus for 17 years and I love the airplane. I do believe that people purchasing Cirrus place avionics and automation over airmanship and decision making.

[@davesemak]

Long, boring introduction can’t be good for this channel. Blaming Cirrus pilots should be rethought, pilot error is a definite problem on every aircraft.

[@johnqdoe]

The psychological profile of Cirrus pilots can be quantified and should be critiqued.

[@spectrepilot]

The video is full of bias. Two accidents and you blame an entire community of pilots...Give me a break! Why aren't you calling out Piper pilots that have a MUCH higher accident rate? For the record, the since Day One Cirrus accident rate is 3.5 per 100,000 flying hours as compared to 4.92 for all of General Aviation. Why aren’t you calling out Piper pilots when they are running 5.11 per 100,000! When it comes to fatal accident rates the overall GA has been on a downward trend and a few years ago finally dipped below one to .98, Cirrus sits at .078! When you use loaded terms like “fancy new machine”...seriously? Poor flight planning is not unique to any brand of aircraft...it is sadly a trait of lazy/bad pilots. As a 5000+ hour military trained SR-22 Pilot/Owner and I take flying very seriously. Despite flying high performance military aircraft for 26 years, I insisted on the full Cirrus training program when I bought my new airplane. For the record, I've landed my SR-22 at FFA and I did a LOT of due diligence to include running multiple performance number scenarios, watched online videos and developed contingency plans if things were not as expected.

[@johnqdoe]

The psychological profile of Cirrus pilots can be quantified and should be critiqued.

[@spectrepilot]

@@johnqdoe There are over 10,000 Cirrus aircraft out there and you think there is a one size fits all psychological profile? Absolutely ridiculous.

[@williamlane1033]

@@johnqdoeThere are no unique psychological characteristics of Cirrus pilots. I’ve flown my SR22 for over 15 years. It’s all about aviation skill, judgement and decision making regardless of the type of aircraft you fly or the avionics and automation in a plane.

[@jiyushugi1085]

Make them get at least 40 hrs. solo glider time before getting the power rating. This is the best way to build stick-and-rudder skills, and makes for safer more competent pilots. Gliders, like the Cirrus, are also slippery, making the transition easier and more natural. Solo seat time, without the distractions of engine, radio and nav aids is another major benefit. Cirrus buyers can afford this, and many of those glider hrs. can go towards the power ratings. It would save a lot of lives if Cirrus started their pilot training with gliders. The FAA should mandate glider training for all aspiring power pilots but that will, sadly, never happen.

[@jmizzonini]

“Learning to fly should be more expensive than it already is”- the post

[@kymnewman7323]

WAIT WAIT WAIT. YOU ARE ALL GUESSING. PATHETIC AND UNFAIR. SO DISRESPECTFUL.