Faustian Bargain - the Stalin and Hitler Soviet-German Partnership

Faustian Bargain - the Stalin and Hitler Soviet-German Partnership
With Ian Ona Johnson
More Third Reich content on WW2TV
• Third Reich and German...
One of a series of shows about the Rise of the Third Reich and the path to war.
Ian Ona Johnson is the P.J. Moran Family Assistant Professor of Military History at the University of Notre Dame. His research focuses on the origins and conduct of war, and the maintenance of peace. www.ianonajohn...
When Nazi Germany invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, launching World War Two, its army seemed an unstoppable force. The Luftwaffe bombed towns and cities across the country, and fifty divisions of the Wehrmacht crossed the border. Yet only two decades earlier, at the end of World War One, Germany had been an utterly and abjectly defeated military power. Foreign troops occupied its industrial heartland and the Treaty of Versailles reduced the vaunted German army of World War One to a fraction of its size, banning it from developing new military technologies. When Hitler came to power in 1933, these strictures were still in effect. By 1939, however, he had at his disposal a fighting force of 4.2 million men, armed with the most advanced weapons in the world. How could this nearly miraculous turnaround have happened?
The answer lies in Russia. Beginning in the years immediately after World War One and continuing for more than a decade, the German military and the Soviet Union--despite having been mortal enemies--entered into a partnership designed to overturn the order in Europe. Centering on economic and military cooperation, the arrangement led to the establishment of a network of military bases and industrial facilities on Soviet soil. Through their alliance, which continued for over a decade, Germany gained the space to rebuild its army. In return, the Soviet Union received vital military, technological and economic assistance. Both became, once again, military powers capable of a mass destruction that was eventually directed against one another.
Additional Resources - a lecture by Ian Ona Johnson
Faustian Bargain: The Soviet-German Partnership and the Origins of the Second World War
• Faustian Bargain: The ...
Faustian Bargain: The Soviet-German Partnership and the Origins of the Second World War by Ian Ona Johnson
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[@WW2TV]

Hi, Paul Woodadge, WW2TV host here - So much to take in from this show. I loved chatting to Ian. If you have enjoyed this show, please don't forget to click like, leave a comment for other viewers and if you have not done so already please SUSBSCRIBE so you don't miss our next streams. You can also become a member of this channel and support me financially here kzbin.info/door/UC1nmJGHmiKtlkpA6SJMeA. Links to any books discussed, WW2TV merchandise, our social media pages and other WW2TV shows to watch can all be found in the full KZbin description. Lastly, my own book Angels of Mercy is always available online - more info here www.ddayhistorian.com/angels-of-mercy.html

[@philbosworth3789]

This really is a must-watch channel if you're interested in WWII history & histography in any more than a superficial way. This channel doesn't do superficial. Yet another great episode by yet another very knowledgeable guest speaker.

[@davidlavigne207]

My limited knowledge of what I know about some of the secret training facilities the Germans and Soviets had prior to the outbreak of war is now much more enhanced. Thank you Paul for having such a brilliant guest as Ian onboard to enlighten us. Amazing!

[@Pam_N]

Another superb series by WW2TV: each Guest Historian exceptional in their expertise and knowledge, and the quality of content and presentation. WW2TV has shown us, once again, why it has become THE WWII Go-To Channel.

[@loreleikomm5802]

totally agree with you, Pam. I miss you on the livestream chats!

[@lllordllloyd]

Your interviewees are almost always interesting, very often brilliant. . . but this episode and this sub-series have completely changed how I look at a subject I thought I knew pretty well. Thanks Woody and thanks to Ian.

[@WW2TV]

Thanks very much

[@deruntergang112]

What a fascinating week this has been. Thanks paul and experts!

[@WW2TV]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@morningstar9233]

There's a clip on YT of Hitler speaking in confidence about his astonishment at Russian ordnance mid the Barbarossa campaign. Hitler was unaware he was being recorded. It's called the Hitler-Mannerheim Recording. If you haven't already, give it a listen. The focus of the video is to hear Hitler's normal speaking voice, as opposed to his bombastic public speaking (he sounds, funnily enough, like a middle aged reasonably intelligent Austrian) but what he's actually talking about is far more compelling.Thanks Paul and Ian for a fascinating discussion.

[@marks_sparks1]

An excellent thought provoking examination of a ideologicaly opposed partnership that suits both sides and ultimately prepares both for the inevitable showdown in the 40s

[@BK-uf6qr]

Fascinating presentation!

[@jim99west46]

Utterly fascinating!!

[@WW2TV]

Wasn't it though?

[@jim99west46]

@@WW2TV The Russians allowing a poison gas plant near Moscow says volumes.

[@PurpleCat9794]

This is really good episode.

[@tommyscordato6029]

I didn’t know the extent of the cooperation between these two countries in the interwar period. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact makes a bit more sense in that regard.

[@PMMagro]

Both disliked the WW1 peace terms and wanted to revise them.

[@steventhompson399]

This was awesome. I heard before that the winter war sort of caused a rift between Moscow and Berlin but he made it sound like late 1940 was the pivotal time when Hitler decided the Soviets wanted too much and that war was going to happen, I had no idea it was around that time, imagine if the Soviets had joined the axis, very interesting

[@stefanodadamo6809]

Hitler wanted to crush the Soviets since well before taking power.

[@paolom2376]

Ian book is amazing...clearly with more details on german side as mentioned in the video. When I read it I finally appreciated the importance of Von Seeckt , way more than usual narrative starting later. Russian side I hope Ian will have the chance to seek more into archives , maybe less on Tucachevsky (he was not alone) and more on others . Paul is right on the other point about tech development (especially air) often overlooked , anyhow great book

[@Piratasyemperadores]

As a historical blog, I have been preparing an article about this great theme from some time, and recently I found the show looking for more information. Congrats Paul, great interview. The first time I hear about the Rapallo german - soviet collaboration, was in the german series Babylon Berlin and I thought that it was a fantasy... So, I begin to find information to dismiss completely that idea but, wow, I got astonishing when I found the Boris Egorov's article How the USSR helped Germany to rebuild its armed forces after WWI. No need to say that when I realized about Ian's book in your video comments, I bought it inmmediatly. I have a question that the interview does not abord (I don't know yet if the book does it). I read about that the Soviets offered submarine-building facilities at a port on the Black Sea, but germans dismissed that because they feared that the british will know about that. However, the Kriegsmarine did take up a later offer of a base near Murmansk, at Polyarnyy, which had been built especially for the Germans. During the Cold War, this base became the largest weapons store in the world, and in the Tom Clancy novel, The Hunt for Red October, the experimental Typhoon-class nuclear submarine Red October departs Polyarnyy. Are more data about Polyarnyy german submarine base in the book?

[@WW2TV]

I am not sure, sorry

[@albertarthurparsnips5141]

Brilliant stuff, here. ‘Too much’ information on the Soviet - Nazi dalliance circa Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact can never be enough !….

[@michael_nelson]

Another super interesting show all about the little known inter war period - multiple rabbit holes!!!

[@andersolsson1279]

Without defending Germany, everybody forgetts the at least 200.000 Germans that starved to death between the Peace in 2018 and the end of versailles around six months later.

[@briandenison2325]

1918

[@thomasmadden8412]

Wow I agree with Paul if the book is a good as the presentation this would be a "Game Changer" and a must purchase. Thanks for the new insight into this period, I'm continually learning how much I don't know.

[@WW2TV]

You're very welcome!

[@Lance2023]

Germany thought Russia would be one of their provinces and Russia thought the other way around.

[@rallypojken]

This is as good as it get's! Thanks!

[@flattblackcopper4558]

Homerun program going on here, great guest Woody, I can't wait to read , connected so many dots, you be on your way with Drachinifel numbers of subscribers Woody 👍

[@WW2TV]

I hope I can reach Drach's numbers - that would be wonderful

[@flattblackcopper4558]

@@WW2TV Keep it up brother, you will get there, that was fantastic program, big fan from the state's 👍

[@walteralter9061]

Of course, the most obvious inference from Prof. Johnson's work and the reason so little research and discussion has been done around the matter is that his work severely batters the cartoon image of Soviet communism as the great and virtuous hope of the downtrodden, exploited masses and cosmos spanning bulwark against fascism. Perhaps Professor Johnson could one day research the possibility that the German death camps and economics of slave labor were modeled on the Russian gulags. Could it be that elements of German/Soviet cooperation involved German inspection and note taking of the gulags?

[@USAACbrat]

This part of the lead up to WW 2 is often ignored by modern western historians.

[@udeychowdhury2529]

Super insightful! Another corker!!

[@zilkmusik7652]

This is absolutely fascinating and insightful ! Thanks a lot! I am gonna buy the book - can't wait to read it!

[@garyaugust1953]

It's interesting how both devils had to spend time eating flies. Two dictators that are totally opposed to each other, both willing to make a 'deal' to suit their own needs. Stalin, without doubt, the greater poker player uses the deck more effectively against his opponent. Sadly for Poland, but humorously in terms of the final outcome, "biting the hand that feeds you" came back with a huge bite after Barbarossa and defeat on the Eastern front.. Fantastic topic and presentation, highlighting the deviousness on both sides, from the end of WW1 thru to and during the onset of WW2.

[@brucealbert4686]

Consider Kalkhin Gol and two front problem...truce with Japan also favors the Molotov Pact in Summer 39 esp. Eastern factor IMPORTANT and usually overlooked...good vid btw in it's details. Look also BTW at the 34 Pilsudski Pact with the failed water colourist!

[@brucealbert4686]

That would be the cheap with the small moustache.

[@colder5465]

For the umpteenth time: the M-R pact was concluded only after the totally fruitless Moscow tripartite talks with Britain and France. These talks were doomed from the beginning. Neither British nor French delegations had any authority for signing any binding agreement with the Soviet Union. Moreover, the British delegation had specific instructions not to tell the Soviets any meaningful information. It was not surprising because the key figures in the then British government - PM Chamberlain and Foreign Minister Lord Halifax were outright opponents to any talks with Stalin. These talks only took place because Chamberlain lost Cabinet voting on the issue. He was forced either to agree with the Cabinet voting or to resign. He chose to agree but this sweet couple made everything to torpedo the talks. And the worst was that Stalin knew all this even before the talks from his spies in Britain. Nevertheless, the Soviet side had tried to come to any positive result for several months! Absolutely nothing. At the end even the French delegation began to doubt this line saying shyly that maybe they should do at least something meaningful to come to agreement But the British were adamant. And you have to remember one more thing. The Munich agreement. Usually the Munich deal is remembered in relation to surrendering Chechoslovakia. But in reality the Munich agreement had another very important consequence: the USSR was thrown out of European politics. The leading European countries showed very clearly that they had no intention to take into consideration the Soviet stance. So as a result of the Munich agreement the Soviet Union was totally isolated in Europe. Nobody cared of his position. The tripartite talks in Moscow was an attempt to get out of this isolation but it was unsuccessful. Suddenly there appeared the perspective that the USSR could be put against Germany without any allies and by the hostile attitude of so-called Western democracies. Stalin's disappointment was so big that he dismissed his long time foreign minister Litvinov - a clear Anglophyl which even was married to an English woman- and replaced him by his close aide Molotov. And there were repressions in foreign ministry - all Litvinov's men were subjected to repressions, among them the key department heads in other words the British made everything to replace Stalin's foreign minister who was very friendly to Britain for a much more hostile figure. And in this situation all of a sudden the German proposal came: let's forget our animosity and define clearly out spheres of interest. We shouldn't necessarily been friends but we could come to an agreement. Unlike British and French German proposals were highly businesslike (don't forget, German foreign minister Ribbentrop was an ardent proponent of an agreement with Stalin) and in this dire situation Stalin chose to wash his hands out of Europen affairs. You, gentlemen, had been trying very hard for a very long time to throw me out of Europe? OK, you won, I decided to abstain of your problems. What was really surprising - the real astonishment of the Western world about this deal. Although it was more than logical.

[@gwenmckeithen614]

Perfect title for your book.

[@lynndonharnell422]

And of course you had Richard Sòrge in Germany during this time. BTW a show on him might be a good idea.

[@aka99]

good idea. hope ww2tv will do a video on him

[@USAACbrat]

Were the American Auto builders General Motors and Ford in volved in this industrial assistance?

[@WW2TV]

Yes

[@andraslibal]

German-Russian cooperation is the normal for the continent the anomaly is Britain and later the US succeeding in keeping the continent divided and in fact succeeding convincing these nations to go to war with each other to the detriment of both. This is the ancient British tactic, creating conflicts in Europe where they can become important, against any dominant power that might be, the Hapsburgs, the French or the Germans. If there is cooperation, Britain (and the US) become irrelevant, German technology combined with Russian resources is unbeatable for a naval power.

[@MegaBloggs1]

If the co-operation was at this level prior to 1933 and possessing an intimate knowledge of the soviet military-it begs the question why was the soviet military equipment numbers so vastly underestimated??at the onset of Barbarossa

[@WW2TV]

Good question. I guess because the Soviets limited what they shared with German visitors

[@susandavidson3344]

​@@WW2TV ... watched the FB (book) story w/ much fascination. Plus the FB Roundtable Lecture. In light of The Hitler-Mannerheim Recording, is it not the case Prof Paul would have very definite "answers?"

[@valvlad3176]

Book cover has a photo of two quite famous soldats - Schnell Heinz and Krivoshein for USSR part of the deal. They better would not fight each over. But they did. Many things happened. None of them good. That was a long story since Russia had German tzars since 18th century to the 1917.

[@JoeyJoJoJrShabbado]

They are extremely similar

[@bikesnippets]

They were doing to Poland what Britain and France did to Africa, Asia and Arabia. They learned from us.

[@davidsabillon5182]

❤

[@bagger289]

"Her (Poland's)existence is intolerable and incompatible with the vital needs of Germany. Poland must and will disappear through her own internal weakness and through Russia’s action - with our assistance. For Russia, Poland is even more intolerable than for us; no Russia can allow Poland to exist." -General Hans Von Seeckt, 11 September 1922 Source:

[@Lance2023]

Was there a serious attempt to turn Russian Army Officers?

[@WW2TV]

Ian talks a little about this in the book as I recall

[@PurpleCat9794]

Trivial question. What language did the Germans and Soviet officers communicate in? Did the Germans learn Russians?

[@WW2TV]

Both really

[@markgarrett3647]

I wish that Ian would mention at least a bit of the 1920 Polish-Bolshevik war and the ultimate failure of it for the Bolsheviks and how it essentially weakened the hand of the Russian Bolsheviks government in its diplomatic dealings with the German Weimar government and military.

[@WW2TV]

There's only so much that can be said in one show

[@markgarrett3647]

@@WW2TV It doesn't have to be a long exposition but a sort of short but succinct mention on how that conflict played a role in shaping the dynamic of the Russo-German relations well into the pre-1939 invasion of Poland.

[@WW2TV]

@@markgarrett3647 Or maybe Ian didn't think it was important as you do? There's also that possibility

[@markgarrett3647]

@@WW2TV Yeah I'm also curious about that phenomena as well with how until only a few years ago that that momentous conflict is sparsely mentioned by most historians when talking about Eastern European geopolitics and pre-WW2 European diplomatic and political maps even though it shaped them as much as WWI did.

[@ronryan7398]

The question here is who's Faust?

[@clarkgable2733]

In both WW1 and WW2,, Germany could have fought on. With history, it's whose version you care to believe.

[@WW2TV]

What do you mean?

[@clarkgable2733]

Germany had the means to fight on. At the end of WW2 Germany was deploying new weapon systems. Doesn't really sound like a nation that is defeated. If a few V2's had started to fall in NY and Washington, DC, there would have been a truce. We were lied to about WW1 and WW2 massively. Hitler did not commit suicide. According to History Channel's documentary series, "Hunting Hitler", Hitler escaped, went to South America, developed Nuclear weapons and a delivery system, and then retired.

[@WW2TV]

Wow, you're a full-blown tinfoil hat wearer. Try reading actual history. The Reich was utterly defeated

[@aon10003]

Did i miss Kalkin Gol?

[@WW2TV]

This had little to do with the Stalin/Hitler situation?

[@aon10003]

@@WW2TV Kalkin Gol Happened at the same time as Germany accelerated the signing of the Molotov Ribbentorp pact. So Soviet was in war with Japan when NaziGermany proposed a pact. This is important. The nightmare for Soviet was a twofrontwar, som they had little options but to be more cooperative than otherwise. And Soviet attacked Poland the day after there was peace with Japan.. Stephen Koitkin described the situation in the book. Hitler waiting for Stalin.

[@Leningrad_Underground]

I am in no position to comment as I have not access to the extensive documentation. That said, The agreement between Russia and Germeny. is described as "Villainous" Why so a value judgement. OK Stalin and Co are Gangsters. They behave as such. Their actions might well be regarded as "Pragmatic" and in the best intrestes of Russia and themselves. They have no obligation to UK and France. Who by the way in Sept 1938, have without consultation. Signed away significant, vital stratigic areas of Czeckoslovakia. the Czechs wern't given an option just presented with the fact. Now that's what I call "Villainous". Britian and France. Who took no action over the Reoccupation of the Rhineland. No action over the Anschluss in Austria. Both in contravention of the Treaty of Versailles. signed the London Naval agreement in 1935, permiting Germany limited navel expansion including submarine building. Took no action over Germany declaring an expansion of armed forces and Airforce. Did not declare war when Germany occupied the rest of Czeckoslovakia. . Hitler was writing about "Living space" in the EAST. Not the "Home Counties" The Polish Gov wouldn't counternance an agreement with Russia. The UK French delegation had no negotiating authority. and was headed by a Kings euqerry. Hitler sends his Forigen Minister with full authority. Stalin is no more ready for war than UK,& France, less perhaps. Strikes me the "Villianous" pact is sound pragmatic sense given the situation. Ps. Great channel with top class discussion and Guest contributions. Liked and subscribed

[@Le42975]

Creating Chechoslowakia and Poland after ww1 was a huge mistake.

[@flattblackcopper4558]

Get off the tracks Pinky 🙃

[@WW2TV]

I have no idea what that means, but thanks for watching

[@flattblackcopper4558]

@@WW2TV Pink Floyd reference, in the episode you laughed at being pink, love ww2 history, love pink floyd, hoping to hire you one day for a dream vacation, I'll do what I can to promote your channel, love your work, can tell you love what you do,that's killing it, in my book. You ever make it to Indianapolis, dranks on me. Cheers brother

[@WW2TV]

@@flattblackcopper4558 Ha, I've never been into Pink Floyd, so the reference went over my head. I would probably get a punk or rockabilly comment though.

[@flattblackcopper4558]

@@WW2TV curious, what do you consider rockabilly?

[@WW2TV]

@@flattblackcopper4558 I like the original 50s stuff like Ronnie Hawkins, Carl Perkins, Gene Vincent etc and also the revival stuff like The Stray Cats etc

[@zainmudassir2964]

Some of most bizarre but interesting 'alliance'. Both sides learned a lot which helped in their later war of Annihilation with exceptional brutality

[@therealuncleowen2588]

The biggest thing I didn't know before watching this excellent talk is that there were serious negotiations for the Soviets to join the Axis after the successful division of Poland. Surely the Germans and Soviets would have eventually gone to war as long as Hitler and Stalin were both in power, but they might have conquered more countries before doing so. WW2 might have caused even more death and horror, which is difficult to imagine. Thankfully they didn't reach an agreement. This was a fascinating topic, yet also very grim. Poland could see their destruction coming and were powerless to prevent it. Also, millions died because both sides underestimated the danger the other side posed. Stalin apparently didn't believe the Nazis would invade the Soviet Union. The Nazis thought the Soviets were weaker and less technologically advanced than they actually were. The result was Barbarossa and the death and suffering of tens of millions. What can we learn from this? Assess your enemies realistically, don't underestimate them. Better to expect them to be stronger than they actually are and prepare for that. The Nazis were (thankfully) destroyed because they underestimated the Soviets and failed to prepare for a long war. They didn't see the Soviets as fully human. It still amazes me that they expected the Red Army to respond to the prospect of certain death after capture, by collapsing. Also, don't abandon good ideas simply because the source of those ideas is politically out of favor. How many Soviets died because they destroyed the field manuals written by a general killed in the purges? Perhaps a Red Army more competent and with sounder doctrine could have prevented the Nazis from advancing so far into the USSR in 1941, and then ended the war in Europe a year earlier, which would have saved millions of lives. It feels to me that the outcome of all this Soviet-German, then Soviet-Nazi, cooperation was about as bad as it could have been. It is among the most destructive chapters in all of human history, resulting in more human caused deaths than any other period except for Mao's great leap backward.

[@jimwatts5192]

Hello there folks. Excellent presentation of an overlooked aspect of WWII. I’m buying this book

[@susandavidson3344]

If the co-operation was at this level prior to 1933 and possessing an intimate knowledge of the soviet military-it begs the question why was the soviet military equipment numbers so vastly underestimated??at the onset of Barbarossa Reply WW2TV 1 reply WW2TV 4 months ago Good question. I guess because the Soviets limited what they shared with German visitors Reply Susan Davidson ​ @WW2TV ... watched the FB (book) story w/ much fascination. Plus the FB Roundtable Lecture. In light of The Hitler-Mannerheim Recording, is it not the case Prof Paul would have very definite "answers?" Wanted to highlight this, as even the Enver Pasha "near capture" story itself is fascinating [intrigue]. Still the BIGGIE is: why was the soviet military equipment numbers so vastly underestimated?

[@June28July]

1:21:49 especially now, going back will likely have to wait...

[@valvlad3176]

1:15:50 Excuse my French - На напающего бог.

[@brianschwarz]

Excellent discussion. Thank you.

[@WW2TV]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@stefanodadamo6809]

Possibly the most repulsive treaty in the sordid history of Machiavellian geopolitics.

[@WW2TV]

Yes indeed

[@mmnvu2997]

Thank you for this work. As addition: find a video "The Soviet Story 2008 - English subtitles". Must see as much people as possible.

[@mathewkelly9968]

Which one is Faust which one is Mephistopheles ? Tough choice

[@marioarguello6989]

What about the Soviet-BRIT partnership, wade that Faustian?

[@matthewwhitton5720]

Please do not neglect to keep in mind that the Soviet Union had ( 1 ) offered, with Czech government agreement, to provide armed forces to Czechoslovakia in an attempt to deter an entirely predictable move by Hitler to devour the rest of what remained after the Sudetenlands annexation. A move wholly scuttled by Polish refusal to allow passage of Red Army forces to Czechoslovak territory through Polish territory. ( 2 ), Franco-British diplomatic and military representatives despatched to Moscow in early 1939 displayed absolutely nothing resembling serious contemplation of an alliance with Moscow to deter, and, if necessarily, wage war against Hitler in the event of further aggression. I refer anyone interested to the fascinating, very candid memoirs of V.M Molotov ( in English published, unfortunately in an expurgated version, as ‘ Molotov Remembers ‘ ), in which he repeatedly refers to Politburo references, on innumerable occasions, along with Armed Forces and intelligence estimates that the pact provided nothing more than up to 24 months of ‘ breathing space ‘.

[@WW2TV]

Thanks for the comments. Some of these points are covered in Ian's book. There's only so much we can include in one show

[@matthewwhitton5720]

@@WW2TV Oh, I fully understand that. I certainly have no criticisms of your show at all, of which I’m a very keen fan.

[@horsefish2525]

You have to be insane to allow Red Army to enter Polish territory. You dont know but it dosent mean that Poland didnt know that Soviets are criminals and murderers on same the scale as Hitler. When Soviet offered help to Czechoslovakia it only passed few months from this Soviet crime: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD. It was a part of the Great Terror en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge. Few year earlier Soviet procured Holodomor. Poland was deluged with thousands of victims who sought first food and the second security. The were idiots on the west who said then that it is a conspiracy theory. During the collectivization of Ukrainian farmland in the First five-year plan and the Holodomor, numerous Soviet citizens of Ukrainian and Polish nationality fled across the border to Poland. Interviews of Soviet refugees by Polish border guards provided the first knowledge of the famine to the West. Poland also sent agents provocateur across the border in order to encourage Ukrainians to revolt against Soviet rule, which was ineffective and only increased Joseph Stalin's paranoia about rebellion and dissidence in the region.[7]

[@horsefish2525]

It is my the second commentary here The 1st has disappeared?

[@GNeves302]

@@horsefish2525 Convenient of you to omit that Poland was interested in territorial expansion at the expense of Czechoslovakia.

[@sparkey6746]

Very good discussion, thank you.

[@WW2TV]

Our pleasure!